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Casyus Quinn
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Posted - 2006.07.12 15:46:00 -
[1]
i see alot of set ups that opt for harders and other dmg resistance modules instead of using armor plating, I was hoping some one would educate me as to why so that i may better understand the pro's and cons between the two.
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Chalan Galadriel
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Posted - 2006.07.12 15:50:00 -
[2]
Personally, i would rather have high resists over armour given the choice. I think its better to not take the damage in the first place.
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korrey
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Posted - 2006.07.12 15:53:00 -
[3]
Armor is basically only good for ships with little to no base armor. If youve got 3k armor or more on your ship then use hardeners. The reason is so you can repair the damage done to you. Ill exlpain.
Theres 4 types of damages, Explosive Kinetic Thermal and EM. Alright?
Now say theres an enemy amarr ship. Hes going to be doing EM and Thermal damage to me.
Now also say ive got a ship with all my low slots filled with EM and Thermal hardeners so my EM and Thermal resistance is at 90% each.
Alright the fight begins. Now pretend I didnt have that resistance. He would be hitting me for say 250 damage with good guns. Now IF I had this armor hed be doing about 100 or 50 per shot meaning I could repair it easier.
Basically if youve got all your ships resistance to 85% or so then your almost unstopable if you have a repairer.
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Raider Zero
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Posted - 2006.07.12 16:00:00 -
[4]
Another way to look at the same situation as explained above would be in a L4 mission. Often times, the enemies in the room would do 700 damage per second if you had no resists. That would take about 10.5 Large T2 Armor repair systems to keep you from dying. Obviously that is ridiculous. Similarly, in order to survive for one minute with 0% resistance to 700 damage every second, you would need ~42,000 armor and at the end of one minute, you'd be into hull and dead.
Conversely, if you have good resists (80% or so for example) you only sustain 140 damage per second, which is almost repairable by a dual repair system tank and it works becuase you start to lessen the damage by killing enemies.
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Casyus Quinn
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Posted - 2006.07.12 16:05:00 -
[5]
thanks for the great input, you all have helped me to undestand the reason behind going with hardners over plates
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Diehard Si
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Posted - 2006.07.12 17:21:00 -
[6]
 Originally by: Casyus Quinn
thanks for the great input, you all have helped me to undestand the reason behind going with hardners over plates
and thanks for starting that thread!
I've always wondered that, but never asked!
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Lumel
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Posted - 2006.07.12 17:56:00 -
[7]
There's also a slightly more complicated, but possibly more accurate reason as well. In fact, the logic sort of slips around in my head and I don't quite have the full grasp of it enough to accurately convey it, but here's a try.
Just thinking about it from a raw hps perspective, when you add an active hardener against a given damage type, you are essentially reducing that damage by the hardened amount (just using tech 1 we'll say 50%). That means that, if there were some gun that did only that type of damage, the amount of damage that you're now taking after activating the hardener is 50% less than what it was.
For ease of argument we'll say it's EM resist and a laser. So the laser shoots at a 0% resist and does 100 damage. Your shields have 200hps. Now your shields are down to 100hps and the next shot will remove them.
Now, imagine the 50% hardener was on. You got shot for 100 damage, but it's cut in half, to 50 damage. This means you still have 150 shields and can take three more hits (for a total of four hits, twice as many as before.)
Now looking back at the first instance, that means that unhardened the laser had to do 400 damage to you to take your shield off in the hardened case, meaning that your 200 shield hps were effectively 400 hps for this case.
Also, if you have a shield booster that boosts 25 hps in the time it takes for the laser to shoot once, in the first case the extra hps you get from the booster are almost negligible. In the second case, however, the boost would cut the damage yet again in half, making the booster even more effective.
The drawback of specific hardeners is that they only affect one resistance, and most attacks do two damage types (drones do one but can be switched, missiles the same). That means that you have to dedicate a couple slots to tanking, whereas adding one shield extender or armor plate effectively boosts your hps the same against all damage types.
The key difference is that you generally have to have good fitting skills so that you can fit "oversized" plates/extenders on a ship to make it useful, because "right sized" mods will generally add far less than 50% to your overall hps.
So, without good fitting skills and a ship with the slots to support oversized extenders/plates, hardeners add more "effective" hps to your ship while at the same time amplifying the ability of a repper to do it's job.
Hopefully that's not too murky......
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Knowledge won't help us understand |
Casyus Quinn
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Posted - 2006.07.12 19:28:00 -
[8]
you did a good job lumel, thanks
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Casyus Quinn
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Posted - 2006.07.12 19:40:00 -
[9]
the loss of speed make plates even more undesireable
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Still Hart
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Posted - 2006.07.12 22:01:00 -
[10]
Right, plates will increase your mass, thus decreasing the benefit of propulsion mods. Shield extenders add signature radius thus potentially increasing damage taken from larger ships.
With shiled extenders tho, you can use them for passive tanking since shields regenerate. Armor does not automatically regenerate so armor plates aren't as desirable as shield extenders.
Here's another thing to consider. In a recent fight, I fought another rupture in my rupture. My opponent had an 800mm and 400mm plate on his ship but no hardeners. He also had 2 missile launchers where I had 2 NOS. He had MUCH more armor and more dps but I beat him because my 3 hardeners and one small AR more than made up for his added dps and added armor.
See he may have had 3x as much armor as me. However it's easier to reduce his damage output by 1/3 (66% of additional resists, so 2 hardeners) than it is to triple my armor. The fact is, I had reduced his damage by much more than that with my 3 hardeners. Ceterus paribus, hardeners are generally preferred to plates.
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Cohkka
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Posted - 2006.07.12 22:18:00 -
[11]
Plates have their uses in fleet setups where a rep is just silly since you can't tank a few BS shooting you, no matter how high the res. It just allows you to live for 2-5 secs longer and hit the warp button.
Plates are also good for ships that need more surviveability in order to get close to the target (on blasterships and on droneboats). And if you already have active hardeners and additional ones don't add that much of res you can always fit a plate to increase you surviveability.
And remeber, plates don't take as much grid as a rep and use no cap. High cap depending setups can use them to their advantage and ships, like the dominix that can't fit a dual rep setup, fit them to compensate
Don't speak english, just F5, F5, F5... |
Minnow maught
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Posted - 2006.07.12 22:55:00 -
[12]
Another way to figure when to fit for more HP or more resist is the following:
(Armour HP / Unresist amount) x 100
for example :
Ship has 1000 Hit points and an average resist of 60%
therefore (1000/40)x100 = 2500
this means using hardeners to achieve a resistance of 60% you have the equivalent of 2500hp.
Now if fitting another adaptive nano took you to an average of 65% resistance, this would be the same as 3500 unresisted hitpoints. If you could fit an armour plate that gives you more than 1000hp instead of the extra resistance then this could be beneficial.
I say 'could' be beneficial as this assumes the damage you will receive is linear (e.g. doesn't decrease with time). The flip side to this arguement is that increased HPs buys you a little extra time to reduce the damage you are taking.
Given the downside to armour plates (increased mass / high pg useage) I tend to look for a high difference between resistance and unresisted hp before fitting one.
The only other benefit to a plate is they do not use cap. So when fighting something that depends on NOS, this can be beneficial afterall if your armour hardners de-activate through no cap then they are worthless.
just my 27.5cents
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Casyus Quinn
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Posted - 2006.07.12 23:38:00 -
[13]
more great input, thanks
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Still Hart
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Posted - 2006.07.12 23:55:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Minnow maught
I say 'could' be beneficial as this assumes the damage you will receive is linear (e.g. doesn't decrease with time). The flip side to this arguement is that increased HPs buys you a little extra time to reduce the damage you are taking.
This is untrue. That's like saying a pound of bricks is heavier than a pound of feathers. Less HP with more resists (giving equvalent to the same amount of unresisted HP) gives you EXACTLY the same amount of time to reduce the damage.
One more benefit to unresisted HP that hasn't been mentioned is that it is equally effective versus all damage types, whereas resists must be targeted (in general) to a specific dmg type (assuming you're not using adaptive nano resists which kinda suck).
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Lorette
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Posted - 2006.07.13 00:02:00 -
[15]
In PvE use hardners
In PvP either works, you can put on a plate+gank fitting and have more luck than a rep that wouldnt have fired quick enough to save you.
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