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Kijimae
Hedion University Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.09 01:31:00 -
[1] - Quote
Can anyone explain, maybe because YOU are one of those or whatever, why people mean to undercut things for like 10-20 % of the value? Example Rigs, worth price is abt 10 mil, undercut to 8 mil and not a few rigs no, throw in like 30-40 rigs of which half might get sold that day. Are they just plain stupid or is it intentional to **** the price to the ground? This is a question i always asked myself not only in EvE, in every other MMO Market i have played also. I really wonder whats the reason for stupidity like that because in the end those ppl will not sell any faster because of the amount they want to sell they will get undercut also. Look like they dont want to make any isk when undercutting like that so why even bother selling ****?
I am not frustrated, i am used to nonsense like that but i will never understand why ppl produce stuff in large amounts to just throw it away for nothing. As i said, they dont sell their **** faster due to the large undercut bec others will follow and undercut too. ********. |

Nor Aken
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2014.08.09 01:50:00 -
[2] - Quote
If they undercut for like 10-20% why you don't just buy everything and relist it. Easiest profit in the world.
To give an answer, their isk comes from volume and lower margins. They know their stuff will be sold relatively fast without having to attend those orders. |

Team Bidders
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.09 02:02:00 -
[3] - Quote
Maybe because we have another 30-40 coming out tomorrow? |

Rowells
Unknown Soldiers Fidelas Constans
1153
|
Posted - 2014.08.09 02:21:00 -
[4] - Quote
sometimes i have too many things and just want my money as fast as possible. Not too worried about margin because I am worried about other things and am not a perfect trader.
I think something along the lines like that |

Shelom Severasse
Elite Kombat Academy
17
|
Posted - 2014.08.09 02:37:00 -
[5] - Quote
Kijimae wrote:Can anyone explain, maybe because YOU are one of those or whatever, why people mean to undercut things for like 10-20 % of the value? Example Rigs, worth price is abt 10 mil, undercut to 8 mil and not a few rigs no, throw in like 30-40 rigs of which half might get sold that day. Are they just plain stupid or is it intentional to **** the price to the ground? This is a question i always asked myself not only in EvE, in every other MMO Market i have played also. I really wonder whats the reason for stupidity like that because in the end those ppl will not sell any faster because of the amount they want to sell they will get undercut also. Look like they dont want to make any isk when undercutting like that so why even bother selling ****?
I am not frustrated, i am used to nonsense like that but i will never understand why ppl produce stuff in large amounts to just throw it away for nothing. As i said, they dont sell their **** faster due to the large undercut bec others will follow and undercut too. ********. "not frustrated" lol |

SJ Astralana
Syncore
52
|
Posted - 2014.08.09 02:46:00 -
[6] - Quote
I would say the OP is exaggerating, as I've never seen a rig posted 20% below the pack ever. I've seen the occasional single item in an odd spot, but never a stack. However, if the cost of a rig is 8 and it's selling for 10, I guarantee you every time I undercut it will be 200k per. Odds are my operation is larger than yours, my costs are lower, my stocks are massively larger, I've been doing this since the beginning of time so I know for a fact I can outlast you, and I'm going to find at what point you'll stop .01 undercutting me or better move on to items that don't compete with me.
Hyperdrive your production business: Eve Production Manager |

Netan MalDoran
xXTheWarhammerXx
68
|
Posted - 2014.08.09 06:00:00 -
[7] - Quote
It may be undercut so much because there is a lot of wiggle room.
For example, there is this one rig that will remain un-named that usually sells for something like 150k, but when I went to make it, I found that the parts only cost about 20k, so even if I reduced the price by 50% I'm still making 55k/unit. "Your security status has been lowered." - Hell yeah it was! |

Kireitsugu Secheh
Les chips electriques
12
|
Posted - 2014.08.09 08:31:00 -
[8] - Quote
Rowells wrote:sometimes i have too many things and just want my money as fast as possible. Not too worried about margin because I am worried about other things and am not a perfect trader.
I think something along the lines like that
Well maybe. But if you sell your dope for less than what it costs you, you'll be emptying your wallet as fast as possible.
|

voetius
BITB Support Services
252
|
Posted - 2014.08.09 08:38:00 -
[9] - Quote
It's not stupid undercutting OP, I'll try and push prices down so I can buy out all the cheap stuff, relocate it and sell it.
If people want to sell me stuff cheap that's their choice. |

Karak Bol
Low-Sec Survival Ltd.
194
|
Posted - 2014.08.09 08:44:00 -
[10] - Quote
Because a to big margin transformes customers into opposition. |
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Barzai Mekhar
True Confusion
164
|
Posted - 2014.08.09 09:16:00 -
[11] - Quote
Undercutting by a significant amount discourages other people from playing the 1 ISK undercutting game, and I really don't like having to adjust my market orders every 5 minutes... |

Owen Levanth
Sagittarius Unlimited Exploration
230
|
Posted - 2014.08.09 09:56:00 -
[12] - Quote
Netan MalDoran wrote:It may be undercut so much because there is a lot of wiggle room.
For example, there is this one rig that will remain un-named that usually sells for something like 150k, but when I went to make it, I found that the parts only cost about 20k, so even if I reduced the price by 50% I'm still making 55k/unit.
And sometimes you just want to dump some ****, but the available buy orders are so low you go "Lol, **** that ****" and just make your own sell orders, undercutting everyone on the market as deep as possible, so you don't have to wait for your money. |

Jane Setan
Grimlock Technologies
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.09 10:20:00 -
[13] - Quote
Kijimae wrote:Can anyone explain, maybe because YOU are one of those or whatever, why people mean to undercut things for like 10-20 % of the value? Example Rigs, worth price is abt 10 mil, undercut to 8 mil and not a few rigs no, throw in like 30-40 rigs of which half might get sold that day. Are they just plain stupid or is it intentional to **** the price to the ground? This is a question i always asked myself not only in EvE, in every other MMO Market i have played also. I really wonder whats the reason for stupidity like that because in the end those ppl will not sell any faster because of the amount they want to sell they will get undercut also. Look like they dont want to make any isk when undercutting like that so why even bother selling ****?
I am not frustrated, i am used to nonsense like that but i will never understand why ppl produce stuff in large amounts to just throw it away for nothing. As i said, they dont sell their **** faster due to the large undercut bec others will follow and undercut too. ********.
not everyone got time for stupid 0,01isk undercut change market mechanic to whatever stock they want buy and allow them to buy from that and everyone will be happy |

Charlie Nonoke
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
18
|
Posted - 2014.08.09 12:47:00 -
[14] - Quote
A few reasons; 1) Not everyone plays by etiquette, some people play games to watch the world burn, or perhaps they want to **** you off. 2) Some guy gets cheap minerals, and produces cheaply, while still profiting from their sell. 3) Market PvP 4) Tears, which I'm afraid to tell you OP, you shed. |

Kijimea
Mulors
19
|
Posted - 2014.08.09 12:58:00 -
[15] - Quote
I dont undercut for 0.01 isk as well. Saying that undercutting by a significant amount would keep you from adjusting your order every 5 mins is wrong. As i said in particular rigs, one guy dumped down the price by a large amount, the isk you get per hour now producing that rig is dropped my 50 %. And because of his huge stack, others undercut him also and he didnt sell anything yet. It doesnt matter how much you undercut, if you sell too much you will get undercut as well and have to adjust just like before. Undercutting by a large amount to sell faster might only work if you sell a few pieces.
Also saying that someone undercuts like that to buy cheap might be correct but looking at the market data, if that particular item gets sold ~50x a day and after prices fell like mad that item still gets sold 50x a day it means that this is not the case. So yeah, must be stupid. I am glad i only sell rigs and unlike "Shelom Severasse" "lols" like a stupid kid, i am not frustraded because i am not dependent to one particular rig. As i said, i see this happening in every mmo. At least MMOs with an Auction House. Didnt have that **** in Ultima Online. Dropping your isk / hour by 50 % is just stupid. Ah and that example of an unnamed rig which sells for 150k with a cost of 20k - of course you can reduce the price and still make profit but why? why would you be that dumb to get less isk than you could? Because you think you will get rid of your stuff faster? No you dont, that is a problem everywhere. People think they can sell stuff faster when undercutting by large amounts and that is just so wrong. I guess this phenomena is like "mining is for free". In no mmo farming stuff is for free, you dont need to be a scientist to know that. |

Kijimea
Mulors
19
|
Posted - 2014.08.09 13:04:00 -
[16] - Quote
Charlie Nonoke wrote:A few reasons; 1) Not everyone plays by etiquette, some people play games to watch the world burn, or perhaps they want to **** you off. 2) Some guy gets cheap minerals, and produces cheaply, while still profiting from their sell. 3) Market PvP 4) Tears, which I'm afraid to tell you OP, you shed.
4) Sorry to disappoint you but making billions a week will never make me cry. I only try to understand how ppl can be so dumb, how they can even turn on their computer alone. Too much reasons which makes no sense. |

Barzai Mekhar
True Confusion
164
|
Posted - 2014.08.09 14:50:00 -
[17] - Quote
Kijimea wrote:I dont undercut for 0.01 isk as well. Saying that undercutting by a significant amount would keep you from adjusting your order every 5 mins is wrong. As i said in particular rigs, one guy dumped down the price by a large amount, the isk you get per hour now producing that rig is dropped my 50 %. And because of his huge stack, others undercut him also and he didnt sell anything yet. It doesnt matter how much you undercut, if you sell too much you will get undercut as well and have to adjust just like before. Undercutting by a large amount to sell faster might only work if you sell a few pieces.
It works if you're competing against a station trader rather than a builder. The trader depends on the difference between buy and sell order to make profit, placing your order in the middle cuts his profit in half (and is likely to **** him off). In contrast, the profit margin of someone that build the items is reduced by significantly less (as builders will usually make profit even at buy order value). I don't know the details about your market, but for the items I produce, trying to sell anything at approximate sell order value will entangle you in a market war, while undercutting by 20% of the buy/sell difference will allow you to sell your stock at a reasonable rate (unless do something stupid like completely saturating the market).
As for why you'd accept smaller profit - cost of opportunity. Money bound in items that will sell over the next three months is money you wont be investing in anything during those three months. |

Ms Forum Alt
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
2
|
Posted - 2014.08.09 16:49:00 -
[18] - Quote
Sometimes it just happens that you click to sell, then click OK without looking at the buyer's volume at that price. If there's any left over it gets listed at your sale price, as a sell order. This tends to happen if your intention is a quick sale and you're selling to buy orders of course. When I see it I usually cancel the order but this happens after 4 minutes or so, so it's possible with a fast moving market for that order price to become the new "low" in the sell orders list. This is especially true if you didn't realise the buy orders hadn't satisfied your sale volume and you don't then cancel it.
Of course there are also fools who want a "quick sale" so undercut the market and there are also buyers who will try to lower the entire market by putting these orders up. When I sell I make a judgement about that - usually based on the difference between the current sell order value and the next few. If it's significant then I just put mine up at the higher price and wait.
It's partly about patience I suppose (which many people don't have). |

Kireitsugu Secheh
Les chips electriques
13
|
Posted - 2014.08.09 18:32:00 -
[19] - Quote
You hate big undercutings mmm ?
Do you like http://imgur.com/65BH7dY better ? |

Julius Cabeki
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
2
|
Posted - 2014.08.09 19:10:00 -
[20] - Quote
If they eventually achieve monopoly it can improve their isk / effort ratio tremendously. It saves you from 0.01 iskers, allows you to use longer production runs with limited adjustments to the amounts produced, and lets you buy predermined amounts of raw materials. Ability to run four to six times more manufacturing alts may be more important for large producers than ability to maximize profit per character. |
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jitajaine
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 04:48:00 -
[21] - Quote
Well I though I might as well post on this as I am one of the evil people that do the large price drops all the time, I have to admit I love the tears that I get with it all the time. It is amazing how many people will buy 1 unit of some of an item I unload just to see who is selling it. BUT that being said the main reason I do it is for the stupid profits I make off it, I loved how the one guy said billions a week like it was something special. The way I look at it why bother buying off buy orders when I can knock the price of the Item I want down to just about build cost hold it there and get a bunch of guppies under me selling there wares. Jack my price back up and buy out all the under priced goods' Takes a little bit of capital to do and have been burnt a time or do but for the most part I love the little one's filling my orders and doing most of the work for me. |

Jarnis McPieksu
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
531
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 07:53:00 -
[22] - Quote
jitajaine wrote:Well I though I might as well post on this as I am one of the evil people that do the large price drops all the time, I have to admit I love the tears that I get with it all the time. It is amazing how many people will buy 1 unit of some of an item I unload just to see who is selling it. BUT that being said the main reason I do it is for the stupid profits I make off it, I loved how the one guy said billions a week like it was something special. The way I look at it why bother buying off buy orders when I can knock the price of the Item I want down to just about build cost hold it there and get a bunch of guppies under me selling there wares. Jack my price back up and buy out all the under priced goods' Takes a little bit of capital to do and have been burnt a time or do but for the most part I love the little one's filling my orders and doing most of the work for me.
Market PVP at the most basic level.
The correct counter is to buy off those heavily undercut goods and relist them back at the "correct" price level.
Repeat until one of you runs out of ISK/goods.
Be aware that people who do these kind of stunts tend to have lots and lots of billions of ISK and are fully capable of eating a few billion of (temporary) losses if it gets them where they want to be at.
|

Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
4058
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 10:52:00 -
[23] - Quote
Kijimae wrote:Can anyone explain, maybe because YOU are one of those or whatever, why people mean to undercut things for like 10-20 % of the value? Example Rigs, worth price is abt 10 mil, undercut to 8 mil and not a few rigs no, throw in like 30-40 rigs of which half might get sold that day. Are they just plain stupid or is it intentional to **** the price to the ground? This is a question i always asked myself not only in EvE, in every other MMO Market i have played also. I really wonder whats the reason for stupidity like that because in the end those ppl will not sell any faster because of the amount they want to sell they will get undercut also. Look like they dont want to make any isk when undercutting like that so why even bother selling ****?
I am not frustrated, i am used to nonsense like that but i will never understand why ppl produce stuff in large amounts to just throw it away for nothing. As i said, they dont sell their **** faster due to the large undercut bec others will follow and undercut too. ********. Sometimes, when I'm bored, I get a spare industry alt to build a massive load of something that has a good margin at the cheapest possible price I can. I'll often pick an item where the buy orders would still make me a profit. I then nuke the margin on that item, with massive undercuts until I bring the margin down to a point where buying then reselling would cost more in tax than the profit. Then I chuckle to myself a bit. The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog. Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list. Chrysus Industries - Savings made simple!
|

Maria Dragoon
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
3
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 11:32:00 -
[24] - Quote
Kijimae wrote:Can anyone explain, maybe because YOU are one of those or whatever, why people mean to undercut things for like 10-20 % of the value? Example Rigs, worth price is abt 10 mil, undercut to 8 mil and not a few rigs no, throw in like 30-40 rigs of which half might get sold that day. Are they just plain stupid or is it intentional to **** the price to the ground? This is a question i always asked myself not only in EvE, in every other MMO Market i have played also. I really wonder whats the reason for stupidity like that because in the end those ppl will not sell any faster because of the amount they want to sell they will get undercut also. Look like they dont want to make any isk when undercutting like that so why even bother selling ****?
I am not frustrated, i am used to nonsense like that but i will never understand why ppl produce stuff in large amounts to just throw it away for nothing. As i said, they dont sell their **** faster due to the large undercut bec others will follow and undercut too. ********.
Welcome to EvE, Everyone vs everyone.
Please take a ticket so that the tutorial agents can explain to you that everything in this game is PVP |

Ginger Barbarella
1987
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 15:10:00 -
[25] - Quote
OP, you're assuming a) people are doing it the exact same way you are with the exact same skills, and b) that they are selling below market value (assumed by your post). First, they may be producing the stuff more efficiently than you are, and may CHOOSE to sell below the current market value because they have plenty of room to do so. Maybe they're not interested in playing your inane .01 isk game: I ROUTINELY undercut current market price when selling mission drops just to sell the items. I really don't give a crap a) what the mineral value is and b) what anyone thinks about me doing it. You don't like it? buy my stuff. Help me pad my wallet even further and free up my sell orders. Much appreciated. "Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." --- Sorlac |

Notorious Fellon
Republic University Minmatar Republic
325
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 16:22:00 -
[26] - Quote
I sometimes undercut a significant amount, with a significant order to drive competition away. Driving away competition is worth the minor loss in some cases.
I have a few budding industrialists in my area of space. I find out what they are selling and I make it and undercut. They will run out of ISK long before me.
It is a long term strategy. Think bigger. |

Stubborn Stain
University of Caille Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 17:21:00 -
[27] - Quote
Everyone's already addressed the PVP aspect of market pricing, but there is another element at work: people undervalue their own time. Too many industrialists don't factor in the time element into their pricing, especially if they're mining their own minerals. This is one of the biggest differences between the EVE economy and the real economy -- in the real economy, you have to value your time at market value, or you'll go broke pretty quick.
The economic term for this is "oppportunity cost". Basically, it means "is the ISK I make from doing thing Y equal to or greater than the ISK I could make doing thing X". That's why mining your own minerals if you're a manufacturer is almost always a bad idea: the time you spend out in the belts busting rocks is almost always better spent doing something else with higher ISK return. If you price your product without factoring in your time, you're pricing it too low.
But, again: EVE is a game, so by definition people value their in-game time very cheaply. (Otherwise they wouldn't be playing a game, they'd be doing something else.)
Now, it's not all ISK. Maybe you enjoy sitting in a belt mining sometimes. It's some quiet time to make some ISK while you're semi-AFK, or just chatting with friends in local. Maybe you need to generate some ISK to replace ship losses in PVP. BVut these are still ways of valuing your time -- it's not a fixed value, but a variable.
On the "supply" side of the supply -and-demand machanic, the most precious resource is always your time. |

Ginger Barbarella
1988
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 20:11:00 -
[28] - Quote
Stubborn Stain wrote:Everyone's already addressed the PVP aspect of market pricing, but there is another element at work: people undervalue their own time. Too many industrialists don't factor in the time element into their pricing, especially if they're mining their own minerals. This is one of the biggest differences between the EVE economy and the real economy -- in the real economy, you have to value your time at market value, or you'll go broke pretty quick.
The economic term for this is "oppportunity cost". Basically, it means "is the ISK I make from doing thing Y equal to or greater than the ISK I could make doing thing X". That's why mining your own minerals if you're a manufacturer is almost always a bad idea: the time you spend out in the belts busting rocks is almost always better spent doing something else with higher ISK return. If you price your product without factoring in your time, you're pricing it too low.
But, again: EVE is a game, so by definition people value their in-game time very cheaply. (Otherwise they wouldn't be playing a game, they'd be doing something else.)
Now, it's not all ISK. Maybe you enjoy sitting in a belt mining sometimes. It's some quiet time to make some ISK while you're semi-AFK, or just chatting with friends in local. Maybe you need to generate some ISK to replace ship losses in PVP. BVut these are still ways of valuing your time -- it's not a fixed value, but a variable.
On the "supply" side of the supply -and-demand machanic, the most precious resource is always your time.
My time is what *I* choose to value it at, not you or other opportunity costers. Can I really honestly make 21 ISK more per RLML II if I fly my stuff 25 jumps?!?!?!! Wow!!!
Not. Me valuing my time at what *I* choose to value it at doesn't do a damn thing to sell prices; it doesn't do a damn thing to how quickly my wallet grows. Sure, you go ahead and fly your 2500 RLML IIs 25 jumps for a total sale price of 15000 ISK over local market; I'll be building more stuff and inventing more blueprints while you're trying to avoid the ganks in Uedama and Niarja. But by all means, you keep convincing yourself you're "doing it better" while banging the "opportunity cost" gong. While you beat your cool rhythms and play .01 isk wars I'll be selling my stuff for a profit. "Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." --- Sorlac |

Chuk Ormand
El Diablo De Verde Mech Alliance
10
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 22:38:00 -
[29] - Quote
I too must confess to purposely undercutting, but probably not for the reasons mentioned or assumed. I constantly research the market and study blueprints and have never built anything i couldn't profit on. I buy all my materials and seldom mine anymore. Anyone who has manufactured a while always finds that special item that sells for 3 or 4 times its cost to build. (For a while anyway) I make simple tech 1 stuff all the time at good profits. As an example...............
A year or so ago the enormous container was introduced. They became popular with miners, especially ice miners, as they lasted longer than jettison containers and held a lot of cargo until your corp freighter came to empty them. Mining ops flourished after their introduction. I was making and selling them in a lot of ice and ore systems. Back then they cost about 250k isk to build and were selling easily for 750k isk and eventually over 1 mil isk. I made thousands of these and the boom lasted quite a while too. Guess what?? I wasn't the only one making these things. Other manufacturers were making them and selling them for the same inflated prices. There seemed to be some kind of "code of silence" where nobody bragged about their huge profits and the factories just kept rolling them out. Eventually the profits started to fall as i knew they would. I had 2000 of these in systems all over and they stopped selling. Since I already had my fun making billions off of them I suddenly dropped my prices to 10% over cost everywhere. I giggled in my overstuffed chair each time my wallet blinked as i sold each one of them for a "meager" 10% profit!!!
I used those containers as an example. They aren't nearly as profitable now. I have found many other items since i have exploited the same way. Everything i manufacture and sell has been carefully calculated. I have made a few mistakes but never any large enough to bring me down. Whoever could have told me i could have fun with spreadsheets?? LOL -chuk |

Christopher Mabata
Dominion Tenebrarum Reverberation Project
94
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 01:18:00 -
[30] - Quote
I've done this more than a few times, although i do more margin trade than anything else as of late. Its a solid technique if your in a trade war with someone or if your trying to force people out of a non-hub region Is it bad if your friend says "that was a Metaphor" and you say "Meta 4? Get Tech II or faction" ?I love the sound of silent explosions in Space.-á |
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