Pages: [1] 2 3 4 :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Diablo Venator
|
Posted - 2006.07.17 08:38:00 -
[1]
Why is corp war so cheap?
War is a serious thing and should be treated as such. We are a peaceful small noob corp that has war declared on us 3 times in the last 2 months because other 'older' players were bored! and wanted PVP action in high sec space with no impact on thier sec status.
Personally i enjoy the PVP aspect of the game, but for players to pick on noobs just for a laugh is rather un-fair.. If they put the cost of war up, it would make them think twice and treat war more seriously than 'a bit of fun'... it might be fun for them.. but for noobs who have worked weeks to build a ship, then to have it popped by a 3yr old charcter is just sick!
We have even had several player stop playing the game completly as they could not see how they were ever going to get any better, by getting popped as soon as they un-docked..
Whats everyones thoughts on this?
Personally, i would put the price of war up, and if you want free/cheap pvp get into low sec, and leave the noobs alone!
Diablo
|
Ellaine TashMurkon
Em Pack HUZZAH FEDERATION
|
Posted - 2006.07.17 08:43:00 -
[2]
Move to safer space.
|
Cathandra
|
Posted - 2006.07.17 08:46:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Ellaine TashMurkon Move to safer space.
War enemies can attack you in Jita or even 1.0, even if there is a thousand Concord warships around them and they have -1.7 sec status. There is nothing to stop them except underpowered sentry guns.
|
Diablo Venator
|
Posted - 2006.07.17 08:51:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Diablo Venator on 17/07/2006 08:52:02 We are in safe space!
we hang around in 0.8 to 1.0 sec space!
How much safer can you get??
As i belive they pay Concord 1mill isk per week and they will 'turn a blind eye' to everything that goes on...
|
Ellaine TashMurkon
Em Pack HUZZAH FEDERATION
|
Posted - 2006.07.17 08:59:00 -
[5]
By safer space I mean - places that are not Jita, and that are not most populated systems of the world. War decs on new corps are practically inexistant problem for corps working in less used gallente or amarr space, where they can grow and prosper without being even noticed for years. Jita is the traffic center of the universe. If You sit there, You're sure to meet all kinds of activity, good and bad. Move to somethink like devoid. You will see other player maybe twice a day and risk of being war deced will drop to 0.005%
|
Zarch AlDain
The Blackwater Brigade HUZZAH FEDERATION
|
Posted - 2006.07.17 09:00:00 -
[6]
Unfortunately if they are experienced characters then increasing the price will make no difference at all - they can afford it.
Your options are a little limited but off the top of my head you can:
1. Hire a merc corp to protect you 2. Apply to a friendly PvP corp for protection as if they are short on targets they may well help you out 3. Merge with another, stronger corp 4. Go back to an NPC corp until the war dec ends. 5. Create a new corp, everyone jumps into that one. Repeat each time war decced until the greifers go away.
Unfortunately this has been discussed several times and no-one has yet come up with a way to prevent people using war to grief young corps without also removing it as a valid tactic (for example against an alliance, or another established corp).
Zarch AlDain The Blackwater Brigade Huzzah Federation
|
Swatcat
Gallente
|
Posted - 2006.07.17 09:13:00 -
[7]
Maybe/possibly the war dec price should be changed to reflect the size of the corp making the war dec or possibly the harder to implement method where by the bigger the size difference the more expensive it gets... Therefor a 60 man corp war dec'ing a 4 man noob corb will pay a lot more then dec'ing a corp of similar size.
Swatcat
|
Ellaine TashMurkon
Em Pack HUZZAH FEDERATION
|
Posted - 2006.07.17 09:18:00 -
[8]
4 person corp may be as well 4 person veteran pvp team and 60 people corp may be as well an industrial corp seeking revenge for what 4 person corp has done to them in lowsec.
|
Swatcat
Gallente
|
Posted - 2006.07.17 09:35:00 -
[9]
I agree with your point fully, but what I don't like or disagree with is when older more experienced pvp corp 'grief' or 'bully' new or peaceful corps.
I can't say I have any idea for a solution but a 4 man corp being dec'd by 50 man pvp corp because they are bored is really wrong.
Swatcat
|
Crumplecorn
Gallente
|
Posted - 2006.07.17 09:38:00 -
[10]
CCP, nerf large corps picking on smaller ones, it is very unrealistic. ----------
Always Up To SomethingÖ One of us is really thick, and I hope its you - Kalaan Oratay |
|
Ellaine TashMurkon
Em Pack HUZZAH FEDERATION
|
Posted - 2006.07.17 09:39:00 -
[11]
Move to safer space :) There shuld be big signs promoting that in Jita. You have problems with suicide kestrels, random wardecs, ore thiefs and stuff? Move elsewere. There are whole constelations with few pilots just passing thru per day. Populate them if You seek peace.
|
Swatcat
Gallente
|
Posted - 2006.07.17 09:45:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Swatcat on 17/07/2006 09:45:40 Edited by: Swatcat on 17/07/2006 09:45:27 There is higher sec then 1.0?
Jita needs the Navy to warp a fleet in and sort the place out
|
Diablo Venator
|
Posted - 2006.07.17 10:02:00 -
[13]
Your kinda missing my origonal point,
Why is war so cheap..
To run an alliance war it costs 50mill isks per week To declare war on a sinlge corp costs 1mill isks per week
That does not seam to be fair...
So noob corps get war dc'd all the time, as it is so cheap and is a way for older more experianced players to get pvp in high sec space without a drop in sec status.
If the price was put up, to say 25mill per week, the war declaring parties would take it more seriously and seek out a corp that would give them a better fight..
|
gordon861
Minmatar
|
Posted - 2006.07.17 10:23:00 -
[14]
When you wardec a corp you should have to register a legitimate reason for the it, like they are mining/ratting in our space etc(these should be made public record). This would give the threatened corp a way out of the war by withdrawing from the area and complying with the terms, and allow other people to check the history of corps. You would still be able to wardec for an arbitary reason, but it would increase the costs.
Wardecs should be more limited in the area the fighting can take place. Price the costs based on the area you wish to fight over (system / constellation / region / faction space / all empire).
You should also get a reduction in costs if the war goes along with the local empires views. eg If you are an Amarr corp based in Amarr space and you want to wardec a Minmatar corp in Amarr space you should get a large discount (50%?).
|
Diablo Venator
Minmatar
|
Posted - 2006.07.17 10:31:00 -
[15]
Thanks Gordon,
This seams a very sensible idea to me, although i dont know how much development this would take..
As the game gets busier, systems will get more people in them, so the viability of moving to a quieter system is unviable..
But stating why you are declaring war should be made public knowledge rather than getting a simle mail saying "corp X has declared war on you, and will start in 24hrs".. It would make it clear for all those involved..
Some of the wars we have had, we have had no idea why they started, or why they finished.. it just seamed like older players griefing younger ones for the hell of it!
|
Ellaine TashMurkon
Em Pack HUZZAH FEDERATION
|
Posted - 2006.07.17 10:53:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Swatcat Edited by: Swatcat on 17/07/2006 09:45:40 Edited by: Swatcat on 17/07/2006 09:45:27 There is higher sec then 1.0?
Jita needs the Navy to warp a fleet in and sort the place out
Yes, there are safer places then jita, just like there are safer cities then New York.
|
Sp1iff
|
Posted - 2006.07.17 11:02:00 -
[17]
i agree with Diablo.
it is far to easy for people to start war on corps. If your a player a few months old, you cannot compete with charicters in BS and millions of SP.
The cost should be greatly increased to war dec a single corp. This way, pirate pvp corps that want pvp in high sec space would think twice about attacking a corp with mainly crusiers and frigs, because 25mill or 30mill a week would be to much of an expence compared to the crappy loot that will be on a kestrel that gets blown up.
they would war dec a corp that has more experianced players, more bigger ships with better mods, - more money and more satisfaction when you kill a bigger and better player.
But something should be done to protect the newer players, mabe some kind of table or system that adds up the amout on SP everyone has in a corp. and the total determins what other corps can war dec you of similar abilities.
|
Ellaine TashMurkon
Em Pack HUZZAH FEDERATION
|
Posted - 2006.07.17 11:06:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Diablo Venator As the game gets busier, systems will get more people in them, so the viability of moving to a quieter system is unviable.
Travel a bit before saying that. Thousands and thousands of people dont even try to move. There are many, many areas like virgin forests. Poeple relocation there will do good for server, good for eve world and good for their safety.
|
Dhejay Centrix
|
Posted - 2006.07.17 12:12:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Crumplecorn CCP, nerf large corps picking on smaller ones, it is very unrealistic.
How is this unrealistic? Didn't Bush wardec Iraq? I don't think that is unrealistic...
|
Maya Rkell
Corsets and Carebears Whips and Chains
|
Posted - 2006.07.17 12:45:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Maya Rkell on 17/07/2006 12:45:29
Originally by: gordon861 When you wardec a corp you should have to register a legitimate reason for the it
Why? This game is a sandbox, and that includes the ability to kick sand in other peoples eyes, in-game. If you as for help in crime and punishment you'll usually either get help, get advice or be exposed as one of the 75%+ of highsec wars with a cause behind. (local posts full of profanity or stealing ore/loot, for example...claiming "we did nothing" after that's a laugh)
Putting up the cost? That's a laugh. The old corps deccing you have billions, it's not going to bother them and it's purely going to annoy moderate sized corps with smaller wallets, who are not who you are complaining about.
|
|
Dutarro
Kydance Radiant Industries
|
Posted - 2006.07.17 14:50:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Diablo Venator ... Personally i enjoy the PVP aspect of the game, but for players to pick on noobs just for a laugh is rather un-fair.. If they put the cost of war up, it would make them think twice and treat war more seriously than 'a bit of fun'... it might be fun for them.. but for noobs who have worked weeks to build a ship, then to have it popped by a 3yr old charcter is just sick! ...
This is a psychological and social problem, not a technical problem with the EVE game system. If some players are inclined to bullying, they will find a way to bully no matter how the rules are changed. Appealing to his sense of fairness and basic human decency won't work either, because he has none. The most effective counter to a bully is to either ignore him or destroy him; do whichever of these is most accessible to you.
|
Mihail d'Amour
|
Posted - 2006.07.17 16:42:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Mihail d''Amour on 17/07/2006 16:44:18
Originally by: Dhejay Centrix
Originally by: Crumplecorn CCP, nerf large corps picking on smaller ones, it is very unrealistic.
How is this unrealistic? Didn't Bush wardec Iraq? I don't think that is unrealistic...
In much the same way Germany wardec'd Poland, yes. And it is not costing a pittance to fund the war, it is costing in any given month more than the annual GDP of most of the world's nations. So, sure, make war decs cost 20 billion a month if we want to use a real world analogy.
I put up a post called "inlining war declaration costs". Take a look at that, as it spells out the rationale for improving the war-dec system and what those improvements could entail.
---------------------------------------------- In nomine Domine, quod erat malum |
Maya Rkell
Corsets and Carebears
|
Posted - 2006.07.17 17:18:00 -
[23]
And it's completely unrealistic, because there is NO good way to establish a base of combat firepower!
If a corp has a few carriers, it has a drastic combat multiplier in lowsec, for example. But you can't take that into account.
This isn't a national war, with all the baggage and costs it implies. It's more like a letter of marque or a charter, to stop the authorities from intervening in certain sorts of fighting.
The main effect of "inlining" war costs will be to protect corp thievesand other lowlifes who flee to small corps, and to protect small corps of elite pirates from cheap wardecs.
|
Mihail d'Amour
|
Posted - 2006.07.17 18:22:00 -
[24]
Eve trains skills over time. This means, over time you will have more skill points. My system was and still is based on skill points of the two corps at the time of declaration. Is it perfect? No. Does it better allign with the letter of marque concept? Yes. It is reasonable that public outcry is costlier to stymie in situations where one group is clearly bullying a smaller group. People don't like seeing big guys pick on little guys just because they can. Using the skillpoint pool method is closer to reasonable than any other mechanism that has been suggested. ISK, fleet values, etc, can easily be manipulated. Whereas skillpoint pools are harder to manipulate. Skillpoints do not automatically equal combat ability, but they do speak to the experience of the corp's members. And experienced corps have the options everyone likes to tout (hiring mercs, etc) which younger corps will not have. Locking hiring on the dec'ing corp prevents them from inflating their numbers after the dec to avoid paying the price. Wars get a little costlier for some corps, but the only corps truly negatively affected are those who use the war dec system to exploit a way around the Concord game mechanic.
---------------------------------------------- In nomine Domine, quod erat malum |
Russo
Amarria Auxilia
|
Posted - 2006.07.17 22:22:00 -
[25]
Well the same rules that allow for abuse, allow for a solution. Ive declared on peaceful corps, and then they whine about it on forums or in local, so a bored corp of good guys declares war on us lol. So it goes both ways :)
Russo - CEO Amarria Auxilia XL pod for an XL personality
|
Maya Rkell
Corsets and Carebears
|
Posted - 2006.07.18 01:09:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Maya Rkell on 18/07/2006 01:09:29 Mihail d'Amour,
The problem is that it has absolutely no bearing on reality. We reacently killed an alliance. That alliance had 330 members, average SP maybe 3mil. That's 990 mil. 20 of us, average SP 25 mil. That's 500 mil.
Want to argue we were at a disadvantage? Want to argue that non-combat skills are relevant to wardecs? (but using those for the price alone is a CLEAR indicator of relative conbat SP, which people have no business knowing...heck, they have NO business knowing SP totals at all!).
And what Russo said is completely true. It's also great when people give you free wars. There is NO good measure.
Locking hiring on a wardeccing corp? Uhm.. right, you do that and we drop the wars, go -10 and start ganking newbs in 0.4's (FAR more damaging to the game) tomorrow. Restricting our ability to perform VITAL corperate functions like that just won't wash.
It will BADLY impact corps trying to chase corp thieves and so on. It won't TOUCH the corps you're concerned about, who have billions to throw into wars. It's NOT exploting - please provide a link to where a dev or GM has stated it is if you have evidence otherwise - you're just out to punish legitimate users of a game mechanism you do not like.
|
Mihail d'Amour
|
Posted - 2006.07.18 01:21:00 -
[27]
The game mechanism is inconsistent with Concord's very existance. If we can wardec anyone for a pittance, then it is silly to have Concord around. If we are proposing that Concord serves a critical role, then using war-dec to pirate in high-sec is using the war-dec system to get around Concord, not for any other purpose. That is exploiting a game mechanic (war-dec) to accomplish something that is normally punished (pirating in high-sec, which gets a Concord response) without having the consequences. Concord is a game system, this is using something to break that system. I've said before that skillpoints are imperfect. I've also said that alliance decs should remain unchanged. If it were a 300 person corp, they had other recourse. As for corps that just want to abuse the system to pirate, if they all went -10 and out into low sec pirating that would be how the system is supposed to work and them doing what they should be doing.
---------------------------------------------- In nomine Domine, quod erat malum |
Maya Rkell
Corsets and Carebears
|
Posted - 2006.07.18 01:25:00 -
[28]
It's a gameplay mechanic to allow fighting, pure and simple. *shrugs*
You're not "getting arround" concord, not evading anything. It's an integral PART of the system. Otherwise there is an unbreakable way to evade conflict. And that ain't what EVE is about.
And no, you're deliberately twisting my point - if you remove vital corp functions because they're at war, then that's what would happen. You'd make the 0.4 interface, the major issue (you hear about a few grief warcs..and that's the sum total of them. 0.4 interface kills a LOT more newbs every day), worse.
The system is SPECIFICALLY set up to allow non-consentual wars.
|
Mihail d'Amour
|
Posted - 2006.07.18 01:46:00 -
[29]
And no one is suggesting getting rid of the system. They are suggesting tuning the system, mostly this is an inflation issue. A million isk simply isn't what it was 3 years ago. And it certainly is not enough to encourage the 'Chris Rock' rule. Concord ignoring what would normally be tantamount to crime should be expensive. Using a sliding scale allows it to be more expensive for nitwits picking on noob corps without hurting a pair of corps with a legitimate gripe that are on relatively even footing. As an alternative, we could always just go 100M for individual corps or alliances. But as you pointed out, that doesn't hurt half the players that are the problem and does hurt some of the PvP potential for newer players. The problem is real. It's been brought up by about a dozen people in the forum on different occaisions. It deserves a solution. As for twisting your words, the argument you made was some people would go to .4 instead of deal with this new system. The limited set of circumstances where they would be affected are moderate corps with very experienced members dealing with tiny corps of very inexperienced members. Those are exactly the high-sec piracy group who are exploiting the system and who should be paying more for the privilege. And, again, if that moves them to the systems where they belong because of their playstyle, well it is a good thing for them to stop being both gankers and carebears at the same time anyways.
---------------------------------------------- In nomine Domine, quod erat malum |
Maya Rkell
Corsets and Carebears
|
Posted - 2006.07.18 02:01:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Maya Rkell on 18/07/2006 02:04:24 Um?
Eve hasn't had massive inflation. The basic goods are not our of line with their prices once the first major patch and its changed had settled.
And once more, they're NOT ignoring a crime. It's PART of the system.
There is no "problem" here which needs sorting.
And no, it's not about your "system". It's about REMOVING THE ABILITY TO ADD NEW MEMBERS DURING A WARDEC! Sigh. You're twisting the argument very deluberately, it is the removal of BASE FUNCTIONALITY which is the issue for this, and the 0.4 interface is a far far bigger problem and affects hundreds of times more people. THAT is something you might want to consider rather than the actions of two or three corps, wen there are other corps who will counterdec them for free and fights.
And the thing is, we're a small corp. We would NOT pay for the "privaledge". Anyone counter deccing us probably would, instead! Yes, we kill alliances, but most mercenarys are in corperations. SP based does not work, period.
And war is not some exploit, some mechanic to evade or anything else. It is an integral part of the entire system, and a critically important one - it is about consequences. If your actions cannot come back to haunt you then those actions were, basically, free and you do them over and over.
|
|
|
|
|
Pages: [1] 2 3 4 :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |