The Vigilant got nerfed, and imo unjustly so, but idk what the heck you're talking about with the rest of them.

The Rattlesnake can, yes, project it's dps to a greater distance. But not with any application bonuses. So it is as good by itself as it is in a fleet. All it brings is it's damage.

A vindicator on the other hand brings a lot to a small group that intends to fight at close range. It doesn't just make itself better, it makes every other ship in your fleet better at shooting the webbed target. That counts for plenty when it comes to balancing out the respective ships.

The rattle fits 1-2 target painters, and here we are.

Unbonused, also note how many Pirate ships use Gallente skills. Then note how many each other race has. Then look at your complaint. And possibly think again.

The rattle fits 1-2 target painters, and here we are.

And i was not talking about the fleetaspecs, i was just comparing the single ships:
- 900% less range with equal dps
- Unchangable damage types
- Alot weaker tank

Does that sound balanced to you?

Unbonused, also note how many Pirate ships use Gallente skills. Then note how many each other race has. Then look at your complaint. And possibly think again.

If you entirely leave out the other ship's strength (which is the unmatched ability to tackle stuff) then this comparison indeed looks unbalanced.

90% webs are one of the strongest EWAR you can get, and quite certainly the best in the tackle-field. Ignoring fleet aspects entirely is still kind of a wonky move, because some ships are designed to be useful for fleets. 1v1 stat comparison is something that does not work in eve because eve is in the rarest case a 1v1 thing.

Hello eve-o forumites, look at your ship, now back to gallente, now back at your ship, now back to gallente. Sadly, she isnGÇÖt gallente, but if she stopped being abused like the poor dog she is and you switched back to Gallente, you could could fly awesome ships like the Megathron. Look down, back up, where are you? YouGÇÖre on a Vindicator with your gangmates webbing **** left and right and killing it with high powered blasters. WhatGÇÖs in your hand, back at gallente. I have it, itGÇÖs a pod with two Blue Oyster tickets to become a true gallente. Look again, the tickets are now fabulous diamonds. Anything is possible when your ship is Gallente and not Caldari.

IGÇÖm on a horse.

Hi. I am a surprise falcon that just decloaked at a safe range.

You were saying something about anything being possible when your ship is Gallente and not Caldari? Try shooting me now.

*falls from the horse*

It doesnt eve have to be 1vs1.... take a brawlfleet against another one. The web bonus wouldn't change a thing, still Gallente which are supposed to have a greater damage output fall behind. Because they don't have that higher damageoutput anymore, where other classes get to have alot higher range and tank.

If this game was supposed to be balanced around honour 1v1s then Fozzie and Rise are doing a really bad job.

Also

*warps in with an ishtar, deploys drones and blaps the falcon*

Welcome to ishtar online.

Vindicator is much preferred over Rattlesnake for incursions. Also, the Rattlesnake is half Gallente too you know, just like the Vindi. As are the Worm and Gila, which are also amazing ships. Gallente and drones are the way to go at the moment.

It's actually tricky to get 1500 DPS out of a rattler at 110 km. You need all five launchers which only leaves room for a single DLA II so your drone control range can be an issue. You can get 1500 DPS at 95km easy ... 110 km is pushing the envelope a bit, you will need rigs.


Not that it effects the original point .. 95km or 110 km is still outranging a Vindi ... but just saying.

CCP Rise has no clue about balance.

Period.

It doesn't go any further than that. He's failed to address some long standing issues and seems to have based his own balancing actions on intuition and feeling vs graphs and logic.

CCP Rise has no clue about balance.

Period.

It doesn't go any further than that. He's failed to address some long standing issues and seems to have based his own balancing actions on intuition and feeling vs graphs and logic.

I left out the webbonus discussion, because mostly its strong against ships of smaller classes or kiting setups, but not when it comes down to pure 1vs1 brawl in your face actions, where serpentis are supposed to be better... well not anymore

[quote=Ninteen Seventy-Nine]Massive amounts of butthurt

The balance passes have been awesome so far. Your ship got changed oh no. Its still incredibly powerful as proved by the alliance tournament.


They now have aalthough slightly overpowered bonus but its interesting and sets the ship apart from other drone boats.

Sorry, what's "my ship" ?

Try responding to what I posted instead whatever is going on in your imagination.

- 900% less range with equal dps

SoGǪ whatGǪ it shoots backwards at 8+ù the range?!
How does that even work? How does it determine what gets hit? And how on earth does it manage to go 880km when range is capped at 250? Aaaaaaaah!

Range forward on the roll axis is capped at +250.

Range backwards on the imaginary axis is not capped because "technical stuff".

If this game was supposed to be balanced around honour 1v1s then Fozzie and Rise are doing a really bad job.

Also

*warps in with an ishtar, deploys drones and blaps the falcon*

Welcome to ishtar online.

SoGǪ whatGǪ it shoots backwards at 8+ù the range?!
How does that even work? How does it determine what gets hit? And how on earth does it manage to go 880km when range is capped at 250? Aaaaaaaah!

They're not doing a good job at all. There are less viable fleet doctrines now than when they started tiercide. They've made whole classes irrelevant.

Maybe on blob scale there is less viable doctrines. But things gets a bit gimmicki at that point.

However for small scale fights I see plenty of more ships than before. T1 cruisers actually became viable and there is a better balance between the 4 main factions rather than just minmatar dominance. Sadly, BCs and BSs have suffered way too much so we don't see them that often anymore.

Again, i wasn't talking about the fleet aspect, just about the fact that if you throw a vindi against e.g. a rattle, that the vindi has no chance of winning that fight at all. None. Not at 2km range and not at 80km range. Same goes for the Vigilant and comparable ships.

We actually scared a pack of Ishtars quite badly with an equal sized pack of hurricanes with MJD, perfectly aimed jump and had most of the tars scrammed + webbed with angry autocannons at their optimals.

We actually scared a pack of Ishtars quite badly with an equal sized pack of hurricanes with MJD, perfectly aimed jump and had most of the tars scrammed + webbed with angry autocannons at their optimals.

I agree. He is horrible. He destroyed a playstyle on the Rattlesnake that was unique to ships in EVE. A passive shield-tanked torpedo fit that primarily used the optimal light and medium drone types and sometimes Warden IIs. Now torpedoes are no longer viable in most missions due to loss of missile velocity bonus and a -225m3 reduction in drone bay space means I can't carry the optimal medium or light drone type I want to use.

You can use a Gecko now to replace the loss of medium drones but its a heavy micromanagement burden since you can only lock 7 targets on a RS and have to lock each frigate and cruiser individually and then command the gecko on each individual target you want them to die before Battleships because the heavy drone AI on the gecko makes it always prioritize Battleships first, and usually the trigger. Gecko also does a terrible job at replacing bonused light drones.

SoGǪ whatGǪ it shoots backwards at 8+ù the range?!
How does that even work? How does it determine what gets hit? And how on earth does it manage to go 880km when range is capped at 250? Aaaaaaaah!

the op is correct. we can dance about this ins and outs of the subject but in the end he is right. serp ships are underpowered.
they all need 1 of three things.
either a huge boost to tank or a huge boost to damage. or a bonus to web range that gets those awesome webs out to like 25km on a t2 webs.

The balance passes have been awesome so far. Your ship got changed oh no. Its still incredibly powerful as proved by the alliance tournament.


They now have aalthough slightly overpowered bonus but its interesting and sets the ship apart from other drone boats.

Maybe on blob scale there is less viable doctrines. But things gets a bit gimmicki at that point.

However for small scale fights I see plenty of more ships than before. T1 cruisers actually became viable and there is a better balance between the 4 main factions rather than just minmatar dominance. Sadly, BCs and BSs have suffered way too much so we don't see them that often anymore.