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Waz Hawat
Nubs.
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Posted - 2006.07.27 20:29:00 -
[1]
After searching through skills that shield tankers and armor tankers have available to each other it seams shield tankers come out on top. Armor tankers only have 3 basic skills and 4 compensation skills.
Hull Upgrades û Increase Armor HP 5% Mechanic û Increase Hull HP 5% Repair Systems û 5% reduction in repair systems duration per skill level.
While shield tankers have 4 plus there compensation skills as well.
Shield Management û Shield HP Increase 5% Shield Operation û Shield recharge rate bonus of 5% Shield Upgrades - 5% reduction in shield upgrade powergrid needs. Shield Compensation - 2% less capacitor need for shield boosters per skill level.
Personally I would like to see a Armor Repairer Upgrades skill added to help powergrid needs too help fitting and a Armor Compensation skill added to ease the cap cost of armor repairers.
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Cain Calzon
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.27 21:11:00 -
[2]
personally i would like to se an "advanced repair systems" skill that takes the activation time on armor reppers down even futher. if u do Armor Vs Shield booster and repairer effectivness the shield booster completly runs armor repairer over.
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Tiuwaz
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.07.27 21:30:00 -
[3]
shield and armour tanking is quite balanced atm, dont see the need to upset that by introducing new armourtanking skills
Originally by: Oveur This is not the conspiracy you are looking for.
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Zemeckis R
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Posted - 2006.07.27 21:40:00 -
[4]
/signed for life
shield tank >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> armor tank
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Ezra
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.07.27 22:45:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Cain Calzon personally i would like to se an "advanced repair systems" skill that takes the activation time on armor reppers down even futher. if u do Armor Vs Shield booster and repairer effectivness the shield booster completly runs armor repairer over.
I'd rather see skills that reduce the capacitor use of armor repairers, just like the Shield Compensation skill. ------------ Ezra Cornell pe0n, Xanadu Corporation |
Eilie
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.07.27 23:10:00 -
[6]
As someone who has almost all shield and armor tanking skills maxed, I think they are balanced fine.
Shield tanks may be stronger in the sense that they can repair more hp/sec but they use up way too much cap while an armor tank can be run forever.
Armor tanks: Have the overpowered passive resist to all mod. Get much better use from damage controls. Can use cap power relays for more cap regen (the one that lowers shield boost amount.) Is better for PvP because med slots are needed for more important mods. Is better for PvP because more people do EM dmg than Explosive dmg.
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Raider Zero
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.07.27 23:53:00 -
[7]
Imo it's well balanced now. I've done both and found that with good setups either works fine.
It's more a question of preference than anything else, really.
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Sovy Kurosei
Amarr
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Posted - 2006.07.28 02:13:00 -
[8]
It is fine, we don't need another armor tanking skill. ___________________
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Anasur
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Posted - 2006.07.28 09:20:00 -
[9]
Sure, if shield tankers get a skill to reduce the cpu usage on our shield mods. Those blood armor comp skills made fitting an armor tank 10 times easier, lol.
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Shayla Sh'inlux
Millennium
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Posted - 2006.07.28 18:46:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Shayla Sh''inlux on 28/07/2006 18:50:12
After figuring in the shield compensation skill, Shield Boosters are more cap efficient than armor repairs as in they repair more shield per capacitor point than armor repairers repair armor per capacitor point.
On top of that it also goes faster, which is where the 'use more cap' argument comes from. Generally, a shieldbooster repairs about as much as two armor repairers in the same time.
Shield tanking is also more slot efficient due to Invul Fields II, which are a big step up from the armor equivalent energized adaptive nano, Shield Boost Amplifiers and the fact that Damage Controls, while lowslot, affect shield resistances.
Armor tanking has been 'better' for a long time, but due to small changes over the last year or so shield tanking now outclasses armor tanking in every aspect. It perfectly caters CCP's favorite players, the Raven-using mission runners.
The reasons armor tanks are more common is that:
1) there is very few ships that actually have the midslots to shieldtank (about 30 in all of Eve) 2) the same midslots are being used for tackling and EWar making them being free more desirable than free lowslots, hence people armor tank.
Shield tanking being 'poorer' than armor tanking was true a year ago, but it definately is no longer the case.
That said, I think there needs to be a skill that increases repaired armor amount by a few percent per lvl.
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Eilie
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.07.28 20:25:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Shayla Sh'inlux After figuring in the shield compensation skill, Shield Boosters are more cap efficient than armor repairs as in they repair more shield per capacitor point than armor repairers repair armor per capacitor point.
Please do some simple math before posting wrong info!
With Shield Compensation lvl5, an XL Shield Booster II does 360 cap / 600 shield which is 0.6 cap / 1 shield. A Large Armor Repair II, which requires no special skill does 400 cap / 800 armor which is 0.5 cap / 1 armor.
So even after training a skill for ~10 days, armor tanking is still more cap efficient! Also, armor tanks have much better cap regen because they have room for Cap Rechargers in Mids and can also use Cap Power Relays in Lows.
The newly overpowered EANM IIs with passive skills are also as strong as a shield Invul Field I but use no cap and less cpu. Also, Damage Controls are much more useful for armor tanks than shield tanks.
In conclusion, I think that both armor and shield tanking is well balanced. Shield tanking may be slightly stronger, but is less cap-efficient and doesn't let you use other important mid-slot mods. As a result, you even see many caldari ships being armor tanked in PvP whereas shield tanks are usually only useful for missions (and showing off in tourny.)
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TimeKeepr
Blood Moon Horde HUZZAH FEDERATION
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Posted - 2006.07.28 22:37:00 -
[12]
the regen rate per cap for shield boosters is better than armor reps. that is, the hp/sec/cap or, rate/cap. even without shield compensation, the t2 XL booster comes in at 0.33 rate/cap, and the t2 LAR at 0.13. so if, you need a quick fix, shield tanking is much better.
but, then again, i too think shield and armor tanking are well balanced right now. i wouldnt change anything (i armor tank primarily).
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Shayla Sh'inlux
Millennium
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Posted - 2006.07.28 23:18:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Shayla Sh''inlux on 28/07/2006 23:19:00
Quote:
With Shield Compensation lvl5, an XL Shield Booster II does 360 cap / 600 shield which is 0.6 cap / 1 shield. A Large Armor Repair II, which requires no special skill does 400 cap / 800 armor which is 0.5 cap / 1 armor
Now add a shield boost Amplifier and see how it adds up. Don't give me the slot argument as an XL Shield booster + amp repairs exactly as much per seconds as a two Large Armor Repairers.
The only reason armor and shieldtanking are fairly well balanced is because midslots are more desirerable than lowslots in PvP.
I want to point out than an Invul Field II is 30% resist all and your "overpowered" Energized Adaptive II is a mere 20% and 25% with those four silly useless skills trained to lvl 5 which in itself is ~40 days of training.
Damage control also benefits shield tankers more than armor tankers as armor tankers can just as well fit a EAN II in the same slot.
Finally, armor tankers have it better cap-wise I give you that, but that advantage gets instantly negated by the fact that armor tankers are generally flying ships with weapons that use cap while shield tankers generally use weapons that require no cap.
Shield tank beats armor tank hands down.
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Eilie
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.07.28 23:56:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Shayla Sh'inlux Now add a shield boost Amplifier and see how it adds up.
Ok, you're right about that. But I did already admit that shield tanking is stronger than armor tanking. The reason it's balanced is because no one wants to PvP with a shield tank and lose EW, jammers, webs, sensor boosters, etc... That trade-off is what makes it balanced: If you want the stronger tank, you lose the fun toys!
(For Missions and other NPCing, balance doesn't matter. It's impossible to balance a game for both PvP and PvE, and this game is all about PvP!)
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Jenny Spitfire
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.30 07:09:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Sovy Kurosei It is fine, we don't need another armor tanking skill.
Ditto. I shield and armour tank and I think the game in its current form is very balanced at tanking. ---------------- RecruitMe@NOINT!
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SonOTassadar
The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc.
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Posted - 2006.07.30 12:53:00 -
[16]
I have 5 words that make me wish I was an armour tanker as opposed to a shield tanker:
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II.
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Mrmuttley
Apocalypse Enterprises
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Posted - 2006.07.30 13:08:00 -
[17]
Another point to consider is the shield regen.
When shield tankers go into battle they need to avoid armor damage as much as possible because their armor wont regen on its own. Armor tankers get that couple of seconds of "free hits" before the damage starts to take down their armor they have to start repairing. When the fight is over then assuming they won they get that shield back again. Shield tankers of course get this free too but it matters less because they probably already boosted it back with the sheild booster. Cap recharge > Shield recharge.
I use both and the only reason and like bothh roughly equally. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I am Dyslexic of Borg.
Your ass will be laminated.
Originally by: Rod Blaine
Eve is not supposed to be fair
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Arcadia1701
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.07.30 15:01:00 -
[18]
ok u add on all those compenstation skills to an EANM II and see how high u can get ur resistances, sheilds dont get a passive all round mod to put there skills onto. We get crappy invul fields which eat more cap than a normal hardeners. They are ballanced, shield uses more cap and has natural regen, armor has higher resistances, and uses less cap. I dotn see whats wrong with them.
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Zatho
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.30 16:32:00 -
[19]
I think it'd be nice to see armor repairers repair a certain percentage of your armor instead of a set amount of hitpoints. That way you can benefit from having more overall armor hitpoints as an equivalent to shields where you get a higher shield/sec rate from having better shield hp.
But I'm just a !
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Rhianna Kontrai
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Posted - 2006.07.30 20:39:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Zatho I think it'd be nice to see armor repairers repair a certain percentage of your armor instead of a set amount of hitpoints. That way you can benefit from having more overall armor hitpoints as an equivalent to shields where you get a higher shield/sec rate from having better shield hp.
But I'm just a !
So you can never fully recharge your armour???
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Chiwanta
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Posted - 2006.07.30 21:14:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Chiwanta on 30/07/2006 21:18:36
Originally by: Waz Hawat After searching through skills that shield tankers and armor tankers have available to each other it seams shield tankers come out on top. Armor tankers only have 3 basic skills and 4 compensation skills.
Hull Upgrades û Increase Armor HP 5% Mechanic û Increase Hull HP 5% Repair Systems û 5% reduction in repair systems duration per skill level.
While shield tankers have 4 plus there compensation skills as well.
Shield Management û Shield HP Increase 5% Shield Operation û Shield recharge rate bonus of 5% Shield Upgrades - 5% reduction in shield upgrade powergrid needs. Shield Compensation - 2% less capacitor need for shield boosters per skill level.
Personally I would like to see a Armor Repairer Upgrades skill added to help powergrid needs too help fitting and a Armor Compensation skill added to ease the cap cost of armor repairers.
Your missing something, +5% hull is a direct benefit to everyone, why have you classed this as an armor related skill yet not a shield tanking skill, what does hull have to do with armor tanking?
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Sorela
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.07.30 22:47:00 -
[22]
I think it's obvious to most players that on a pure numbers basis shield tanking can tank more damage than armor tanking. The capacitor argument is pretty much false as well due to factors like a shields natural regening.
I also agree that between the two this is probably balanced by the fact that mid slots can carry more desirable modules.
The real question though is: is it balanced that Caldari ships get bonus mid slots so they can shield tank AND have other useful mods?
In PVE the answer is deffinetly no. PvE balance isn't really all that important but it'd be nice if they could figure out a way to fix it w/o borking the PvP. Borking the PvP to fix it though is unacceptable.
As for if it's balanced in PvP I'd tend to think it is. Then again tanking is much less prevalent in PvP overall so it's hard to say.
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Talori'i
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.07.30 22:56:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Chiwanta Edited by: Chiwanta on 30/07/2006 21:18:36 Your missing something, +5% hull is a direct benefit to everyone, why have you classed this as an armor related skill yet not a shield tanking skill, what does hull have to do with armor tanking?
No, you are missing something, its not about +5% hull that mechanic gives, but many of the armor tanking modules require various levels of mechanic to be able to fit them.
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Scorpyn
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.31 00:57:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Scorpyn on 31/07/2006 00:57:44
Originally by: Sorela I think it's obvious to most players that on a pure numbers basis shield tanking can tank more damage than armor tanking. The capacitor argument is pretty much false as well due to factors like a shields natural regening.
The natural regen is only noticeable if you fit a full passive tank, in which case the cap is not used at all.
Example : The raven has 6000 shields and a 2000 sec regen. The average regen would be 3hp/s.
The actual value is slightly higher though due to skills and the fact that the regen is not using a simple shields/second formula, but it's still negligible.
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Eilie
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.07.31 03:12:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Chiwanta Edited by: Chiwanta on 30/07/2006 21:18:36
Originally by: Waz Hawat After searching through skills that shield tankers and armor tankers have available to each other it seams shield tankers come out on top. Armor tankers only have 3 basic skills and 4 compensation skills.
Hull Upgrades û Increase Armor HP 5% Mechanic û Increase Hull HP 5% Repair Systems û 5% reduction in repair systems duration per skill level.
While shield tankers have 4 plus there compensation skills as well.
Shield Management û Shield HP Increase 5% Shield Operation û Shield recharge rate bonus of 5% Shield Upgrades - 5% reduction in shield upgrade powergrid needs. Shield Compensation - 2% less capacitor need for shield boosters per skill level.
Personally I would like to see a Armor Repairer Upgrades skill added to help powergrid needs too help fitting and a Armor Compensation skill added to ease the cap cost of armor repairers.
Your missing something, +5% hull is a direct benefit to everyone, why have you classed this as an armor related skill yet not a shield tanking skill, what does hull have to do with armor tanking?
How I see it: Shield Management, Shield Operation, Hull Upgrades, and Mechanic ALL help BOTH Shield and Armor tanks! The extra shields give armor tanks a few more seconds before they start taking damage, the extra armor gives shield tanks a few more seconds to run away (or defeat opponent), and the extra hull give both tanks a few more seconds to run away (or defeat opponent).
The Shield Upgrades skill is pretty useless. It's only useful for Shield Extenders which are only useful for passive tanks which are only useful for a couple of ships. It doesn't work for Shield Boosters and all other shield mods only use 1 PG anyway.
So both Shield and Armor only have 1 really useful skill. Those being Shield Compensation and Repair Systems.
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Ricka Bronzar
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Posted - 2006.07.31 09:51:00 -
[26]
Well some very good arguements both ways here :)
One thing I have not seen mentioned yet is in reference to teh default resist differences between shield/armour. On all ships there is a total higher % of resist on armour then on shields when added up.
Due to this it is easier to get generally total higher resists with armour tanking.
E.g. Take the Tempest BS, as it (i think) can both shield and armour tank.
140% across all armour resists as default 120% across all sheild resists as default
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Lucre
STK Scientific Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.07.31 10:26:00 -
[27]
Originally by: SonOTassadar I have 5 words that make me wish I was an armour tanker as opposed to a shield tanker:
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II.
Yes, actually what we need post-Blood is a skill to increase the damage of laser weapons now everyone's EM and Thermal resistances have increased due to wholesale use of EANM II and damage controls!
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Lorette
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.07.31 11:46:00 -
[28]
Im pretty sure if you do ALL the maths they work out to be almost identical at the T2 level (factoring in resists, XL+amp vs 2x LAR etc). The only problem is when you get > T2 mods on there, 50% invuln fields, best DC, best Xl booster, best amp, crystal set....and your rocking
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Lord WarATron
Amarr
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Posted - 2006.07.31 16:19:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Lucre
Originally by: SonOTassadar I have 5 words that make me wish I was an armour tanker as opposed to a shield tanker:
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II.
Yes, actually what we need post-Blood is a skill to increase the damage of laser weapons now everyone's EM and Thermal resistances have increased due to wholesale use of EANM II and damage controls!
As someone that can fly pretty much every amarr t1/t2 ship, I have seen how things have changed. I am faced with the fact that the best PvP ship (excluding fleet battles) is the Arbtrator/Curse/Pilgrim. Heck, perhaps even in fleet battles, a Pilgrim/Curse could get in the middle of an enemy fleet and fire off 4 or 5 ECM burts constantly due to NOS bonus to InstaECM half the enemy fleet :)
When i first started eve, people called the arbriator a joke! Now due to the massive change in people useing Damage Controls and EANM II's, this joke is now the only serious option available to PvPers on a Budget. I myself am considering training up for a Dominix or even a raven as you can no longer do any proper amount of damage to people anymore - in the past people used to have 60% EM resist with 3 hardners. Now they use 3 EANMII's and have around 80% EM resist, or 84% if they have a Damage Control as well!
That is a 50-60% reduction in damage output from amarr ships. This is quite serious as people can now tank Gankageddons. --- Slot 10 Akemons Modified 'Noble'Zet 5000 implant +8% Armour FREE |
Laughlyn Vaughns
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.08.01 00:51:00 -
[30]
i would liek to see both a Passive version of the invul field for shields and an active version of the Adaptive nano for armor just to give a bit more variety.
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