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Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr
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Posted - 2006.07.29 13:03:00 -
[1]
personally i think that a droneboat needs the default drone bonus +10% damage/hitpoints/mining and so the abaddon should get that one too. to seperate it from the domi you can still have a different sized dronebay and maybe give the domi a second dronebonus to make sure gallente can keep the main drone-bs. without those up to 50% more damage and hitpoints the abaddon's drones would be far too weak comapred to other droneboats.
also in regards to the "tier3 drone bs > tier 1 drone bs argument" : a drone-abaddon could always have lower base stats/slots than the other tier 3 bs or one could simply stick to laser gank for the abaddon and change the geddon/apoc to a drone-bs instead.
regarding the "drones are not a typical amarr weapons" stuff: that may be true for the fiction but most certainly not for the situation we have on the server right now. the arbi isnt just one single ignoreable cruiser we have its our very best cruiser for most pvp related activity. vera should actually be very aware of this as she and her corpmates were on the recieving end of an arbi more than a few times.
you cant really go with fiction alone for balancing issues as that would require amarr fleets to always outnumber their opponents and lasers to be much more powerful than they currently are. our storywise strengths just dont translate well/at all into something resembling balance.
restricting amarr (battleships) to lasers only produces a massive weakness as such a fleet can be countered quiet easily. sure we can still crush our enemies if we always bring superior numbers and size as we should do as per storyline but i dont think thats what we should aim for.
a good way to give amarrian battleships the much needed versatility will be to allow them the possibilty to deal damage that doesnt involve lasers or otherwise resticts them to mainly EM damage. theres not too many ways to do that: drones, missiles or other races turrets. added to that an amarrian pilot who whishes to use our most powerful t1 cruiser or one of its t2 variants will train up drones anyway. and even if you decide to go straigth to bs and ignore cruisers you will need to train up droneskills as they will be a vital part of a good geddon setup. as i said earlier drones are already one of our main weapons in regards to game reality. so a drone bs seems to be preferable over a missile-bs or even a projectile/hybrid bs which would make even less sense storywise. granted you could also give us an ewar bs but that would feel just as out of place as a projectile boat.
regarding the "omg stop whining .. the abaddon will be teh awesome" crying: i can see perfectly clear that the proposed ship with 5% resistance and 5% rof will be very strong and very deadly. it will also be very boring. as per devblog it can either tank better than the apoc -> aka replace the apoc or gank better than the geddon -> aka replace the geddon. so if it gets released this way theres really not much reason to fly an apoc or a geddon then. and even if people would still chose to fly the other 2 bs for some sentimental reason we would end up with 3 ships doing virtually the same while being incredibly easy to counter with a setup that works against all 3 of them at the same time.
my personal preference regaring an amarr drone-bs:
tier 1: abaddon: 10%drone damage/hitpoints/mining + maybe some tanking bonus or other non drone bonus
tier 2: apoc: 5% resistance + 5% armor hp (could be sth else but preferably not cap use here as using lasers and creating a dedicated tanker dont really mix very well anyway)
tier 3: geddon: 5% rof 10% reduce in capuse
the reason i would switch geddon and abaddon is purely based on the ship design. imho abaddon looks more like a drone carrier than the geddon.
tier 2 and 3 could be the other way around as well.
and if you must have the domi as a superior drone-bs just give it a 2nd drone related bonus.
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Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr
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Posted - 2006.07.29 13:12:00 -
[2]
Originally by: LordSlay Them
I would rather have a tachyon sniper, and hop in my domi when i felt like using drones.
you may notice that the domi is in fact a gallentean ship not an amarrian one like the abaddon. also: leaving its internal values aside the domi can quiet easily be describes as hideous.
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Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr
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Posted - 2006.07.29 14:49:00 -
[3]
if the abaddon was to become a tier1 drone bs like the domi i would not give it more than 4 medslots. propably sth like 6-4-8 or 7-4-7 depending on what the none-drone related 2nd bonus would be obviously.
as a tier 3 drone boat i wouldnt go higher than 5 meds unless you really want to make it a combined drones + ewar bs. which would propably be a bit too much.
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Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr
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Posted - 2006.07.30 16:48:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Ithildin Everyone who is serious about Amarr getting a tier 3 drone battleship needs to pod themselves until they've got no skills left, then go play WoW - where devs don't give a flying **** about racial identity (they're releasing paladins for the Horde, for example and for those who care).
not having your wow-experience i cant really comment on whatever blizzard wants to do with their game and i dont really see how thats supposed to be be important for the abaddon. let me instead suggest that you go ahead and read this thread before you go all crying around about how your gonna lose your precious dominix (hint: you are not).
regarding the racial identity: i agree it would be nice if amarr could just be using lasers only, field massive fleets that win by using technical and numerical superiority and enslave other players. however i dont think that would be easy to implement or create lots of interesting fights.
Originally by: Arbitrator description The Arbitrator is unusual for Amarr ships in that it's primarily a drone carrier.
i see you chose to quote only the part of the arbis description that is actually true. propably a good idea. while i agree that the arbi is unusual compared to our other ships it is also essential to our fleets and if you compare it with our other cruisers it also manages to come out on top quiet easily. so i'm wondering why exactly we should not get a battleship sized drone carrier when the cruiser sized one has proven to be quiet powerful and we already have 2 laser based battleships for all our turret needs.
also note that while the arbi is an exception thats precisely what amarrian ships need. a few alternatives to purely lasers based ships in order to be not completely predictable / counterable for pvp reason. other possibilites to get that result would be creating a dedicated ewar, missiles, projectiles or hybrid bs. and if you take a close look at those possibilites you may notice that in contrast to a droneboat we dont already have an ewar, missile, projectile or hybrid cruiser as a vital part of our fleets.
should you come up with a better way to give amarrians more versatility when it comes to bs-pvp go right ahead and post it here. maybe try to avoid just coming up with a better version of our already existing battleships though as we already got that solution from tux and i'm not convinced that it really comes through with the "new role" the tier3 bs were said to get earlier.
Originally by: Ithildin
I'm not saying that drone ships should be restricted to Gallente only, I am saying that if there exist a non-Gallentean drone ship in a ship class, then the Gallentean version in the same class must be higher tier and therefore stronger (not necessarily in all ways, but in *most* ways). Pretty much how it is between Vexor and Arbitrator, even though an EWar bonus is very, very, potent with a drone ship.
ah seems you managed to calm down a bit further down your post. i happen to agree with what you post there though i dont think the higher tier == better rule needs to be all that strict. for example an amarrian tier2 or 3 drone bs with just the default drone bonus and the suggested 200m3 dronebay doesnt seem like much of a problem if you go ahead and give the domi a 2nd dronebonus as well. just because it would be of a higher tier doesnt have to mean that its 2 or 3 times as powerful as the domi.
also: an amarian tier3 drone bs with the arbis bonuses and 7 or 8 midslots as suggested earlier in this thread is pretty clearly over the top as that would combine very good ewar, drones and tankablitily into one ship. on the arbi itself at least the ewar and tanking departments are not high at the top end of cruisers.
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Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr
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Posted - 2006.07.31 09:34:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Nyxus
While I agree that the Abaddon as a drone carrier shouldn't eclipse the Domi, it can easily be made an 8 midslot ship with drone bonuses and tracking disruptor bonuses with only enough dronebay to fit 5 heavies and 5 lights and be balanced. Just as the Arbi is balanced with the Vexxor. FFS all the other tier 3 bs are getting 6 mids AND filling in "holes" in thier respective fleets. If the Abaddon can't be a drone boat then make it 8/8 turrets/missiles.
8 medslots would be way too much for an amarrian droneboat. with say 200m3 dronespace and the 10% damage/hitpoints bonus i wouldnt give it more than 6 meds for a tier 3 version... 4 or 5 meds for a lower tier one.
same goes for 8 launcher hardpoints. while that would also gives us some variety it would clearly be over the top. the ravens 6 launchers would have to be the max. number used. if you really want to create an amarrian missile boat i would rather go for a split setup like the typhoon.
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Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr
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Posted - 2006.07.31 09:36:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Luric Vizjier Making the Abaddon a droneship is an insult, there is no honor in it. The Amarr will only stand for direct confrontation and win by either outlasting or quickly striking down our enemy. There is no workaround to a true battle, any Amarrian pilot knows this.
~Captain Luric Vizjier
so why exactly has the cva given up on using pure amarrian fleets then?
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Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr
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Posted - 2006.07.31 15:42:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Lisento Slaven
I suggested a drone bonus and a laser ROF bonus but a limited drone bay of either 50 - 75 m3 for a drone using version of the Abaddon.
125 m3 drone bay would field 5 heavy drones and coupled with a laser ROF would "probably" put our a bit too much firepower and would DEFINITELY make armageddon useless. But limiting the drone bay in size "might" make the Abaddon more of a niche role compared to the Armageddon (as a drone ship).
Either way I do not want a resist bonus on the Abaddon. I'd rather see a gimpy drone bonus or a tracking disruptor bonus.
wasting 1 of 2 bonuses on a way too small dronebay will surely not create a unique role for the abaddon. also..if your thinking about the default droneboat bonus of 10% damge/hitpoints: a 75m3 dronebay would hold 3 heavy drones with up to 50% bonus on them those would have the power of 4.5 heavies without the bonus...the geddon has 5 heavies.
if you want to have a difference over the geddon as it is now how about removing the laser rof bonus from one of them and replacing it with a decent sized dronebay (200m3 or so) and a drone bonus instead. as you said already giving a bs 7-8 turrets with a rof bonus and a usefull dronebonus as well will be over the top. so in order to change one of those 2 ships into a droneboat it would have to lose a number of turrets or the rof bonus.
also: theres really no need to worry about _making_ it better than the geddon because with the devblog-proposed bonuses and slotlayout it will already be better than the geddon at pretty much everything pvp-related.
if the abaddon is to stay the boring turretboat as which it got announced then the 5% rof and 5% resists are already pretty much perfect for that role.
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Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr
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Posted - 2006.07.31 17:56:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Hitomi Ayame
I'd like to see something like 7 high slots 3-4 mid slots 7-8 low slots
10% drone hp, damage, mining yield, and repair amount per level 10% reduction in laser cap use per level
200-250m3 drone bay
for a tier 3 i would suggest sth like this: 6-5-8 10% drone dmg/hitpoints 5% resists, cap recharge or some other tanking related bonus (or other non-laser bonus)
4 turrets + 1 launcher or maybe even 3 turrets + 2 launchers
reason why i wouldnt give it a laser bonus or more highslots/turret hardpoints is to make sure the drones stay its main weapon and it doenst get too much gankpower with 6 lasers, 3 heatsinks and the bonus-improved drones (havent really checked that as of yet but it seems like it could be a bit much). as lasers require loads of powergrid adding more highslots/turret hardpoints would also require giving it a lot more grid to make it able to fit them.
also the domi has a hybrid dmg bonus as its 2nd bonus .. so making an amarrian drone-bs more of a tanker would provide some additional differences there.
for a tier 1 version just remove 1 medslot: 6-4-8, same bonuses
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Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr
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Posted - 2006.08.01 17:34:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Crellion
1 cruiser that nobody ever used and was "sort of" a drone boat doesnt make an entire races secondary weapon.
do you even know what the arbitrator is? "sort of a drone boat? its jsut as much "sort of" a droneboat as the vexor or domi. the arbi is easily our most powerful/useful t1 crusier and its t2 varients rank high with the t2 cruisers. when you say "nobody ever uses" it i assume you mean pilots who dont use amarrian ships for pvp or pilots who have for some strange reason decided to use cruiser which are less suited for that.
also: as far as secondary weapons go there arent that many to chose from and i would think that as far as amarrian ships go drones qualify for that position a lot mroe than missiles.
Originally by: Crellion
In fact more ammar designs were missle ships than drone ships.
1. amarr
2. hmm that sounds somewhat new to me. aside from the t1 missile frig and the stealthbomber (which all races get) we dont have any dedicated missile ships out there. most of those who do indeed have 1 or even 2 launcher hardpoints also sport a dronebay so that doesnt make missiles our prefered secondary weapons.
on the other hand we do have a dedicated drone cruiser and two tech2 variants of it.
Originally by: Crellion
tier1 ewar boat proposal
an ewar bs would be just as well suited to solve our versatility/predictability issues as a droneboat. as would a missile boat or a split setup like the typhoon. you wont hear me complaining about such a ship.
i simply prefer a droneboat (also as a tier 1 version btw.) because i happen to fly amarrian ships and unlike you managed to pick up on what we are using already. and a droneboat would fit a lot better with our current fleets than a missileship or ewarboat (mainly due to the traditional lack of medslots...also lots of med and lots of lows doenst seem to be very good idea for balance reasons)
Originally by: Crellion
That would have been perfect. It didnt happen. Why?
Because the ammar peeps saw the other races getting big us ships and so whined too much on these forums against the possibility if an EW ship or asked for a Drone ship (as the OP does here) that's tier 3 and an automatic "I win" button. What did they get in return? A nice ship but now they have more or less 3 BSs that could be rly 1 BS with 3 different popular fittings.
Moral: Be careful what you wish for...
hmm another thing i dont seem to recall...amarrian pilots were whining at the possibility of an ewar boat? when was that even suggested in any major way?
i do remember people asking for automatic "i win" buttons though. most of those are the ones who want the abaddon to get 2 damage bonuses.
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Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr
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Posted - 2006.08.01 17:51:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Etherios
Yes i know but i dont think it will replace arma or apoc because Arma is a cheap bs for close range(if u can have that with amarr) and apoc is for tanking/npcing. Now they give us the best fleet ship and the best 30k+ heavy hitting bs (besides the missile ships ofc ...)
as was said by tux in the devblog its setups are to include being able to deal more damage than the geddon or tank better than the apoc. that right there describes how it will easily replace both of those ships. if it is able to deal longrange damage it will be just as able to fit pulses and deal damage in what you percieve to be the geddons area of effectiveness.
Originally by: Etherios
That arma can be a fleet ship or that Apoc can be one doesnt mean that its role is that. Apoc can do all but mediocre as arma. Abaddon can gank big time and tank a bit.
yeah like it was said earlier it will be better than both of these ships.
Originally by: Etherios
I still think Arma is lot better up close and the Apoc is lot better tanker. So u have 3 ships with similar possibilities yes but they are all proficient in diferent areas.
the devblog-abaddon will have 1 more lowslot and up to 25% better resists than an apoc. how exactly is an apoc going to be a better tank?
regarding the closerange geddon: it could in theory be slightly better for closerange-damage if it had a significantly larger dronebay than the abaddon. however the abaddon should still be able to fit megapulses much more easily and still have room for a better tank. in order to be able to fill the role of superior beam laser ship it would require more powergrid than a geddon. so if you fit both for shortrange the abaddon will likely come out on top in regards to leftover grid for tankage.
Originally by: Etherios
Now there is no need for an Amarr to fly anything else than Abaddon in fleets.
and thats not really how it should be imo.
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Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr
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Posted - 2006.08.01 18:29:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Etherios
Ok Close range Arma is smaller (like 15 mil smaller) so more agil and with the cap+ bonus it has can keep the pulse + tank going easier. Also remeber the Arma is the cheapest bs in Amarr. So i still think Arma > Abaddon close range.
Ok Tank. Apoc has the cap bonus so it can run 2 Lreps without problem and fire guns where abaddon cant do that for long period of times. So the Apoc can out tank a Abaddon in the long run.
price wont be that much higher once the bpo has seen some research and you take insurance into account.
i dont think a bit of agility will make much of a difference once you're at the bs level. at least for amarrian battleships with a rof bonus it seems unlikely that they will see a lot of uses involving an mwd and moving around at great speed.
regarding the cap advantage...for pvp reeason you're propably better off just using a capinjector instead of trying to create a setup where you can run a dual repper tank forever on an apoc or abaddon (which would need a lot more slots for rechargers/cap relays). capboosters are also a reason why the current apoc bonus doesnt really help it much for pvp. as other ships can keep their cap alive jsut as well with boosters. sure those will run out eventually but thats not likely gonna happen fast enough.
most fights will be over too fast in order to take advantage of such longterm bonuses.
Originally by: Etherios
i still belive its a very good ship that i will be flying ALOT
i'm not trying to dispute that. it will be very good but also very boring when compared to what we have already.
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