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Melkor Bloodaxe Minmatar	Posted - 2006.07.28 08:46:00 - [1] Edited by: Melkor Bloodaxe on 28/07/2006 08:50:10 Tux, Appologies for yet another tier 3 BS thread, but we Matari fanatics from TEAM Minmatar are working on a serious proposal for a good and balanced Maelstrom. Because designing is primary a case of drawing around it's purpose we have one question: Do you and your fellow devs have a specific role in mind for the Mael? This way we can design it for such a purpose, so that we do not come up with an AC-platform while you had an Arty-boat in mind, or vice versa... This is for all you guys who want to come up with a better ship, so maybe you can also state the roles you had in mind for the other ships (although some are quite obvious ) Thanks in advance. PS: I didn't had a thread of proposals by players in mind, unless Tux has no clue about what the ship roles should be. ____ "Since when is justified killing more fun than random killing?" -HippoKing- TEAM MINMATAR - In Rust We Trust -
Tiuwaz Minmatar	Posted - 2006.07.28 09:17:00 - [2] /signed, would be great to know Originally by: Oveur This is not the conspiracy you are looking for.
Ishana Minmatar	Posted - 2006.07.28 10:26:00 - [3] Well seeing as the mael is slower and heavier, and has more turret slots, I would assume it's ment to be an arty boat. Would be nice to hear from the devs if this is indeed the case though. Or maybe they have a whole other role in mind for it? _________________________________________________________
GOLDEN LAMB	Posted - 2006.07.28 17:11:00 - [4] yes plz
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.07.28 17:20:00 - [5] 233 reads and 3 replies says "Minmatar not important" to me. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Darmed Khan Minmatar	Posted - 2006.07.28 17:23:00 - [6] The Maelstrom's role is to kill stuff. I believe that's the same role as the other tier 3 BS. ----------------------------
GOLDEN LAMB	Posted - 2006.07.28 17:26:00 - [7] Originally by: Darmed Khan The Maelstrom's role is to kill stuff. I believe that's the same role as the other tier 3 BS. wow, would you mind to stop RP`ing the dumb Minmatar plz.
Katarina Hetiako	Posted - 2006.07.28 17:27:00 - [8] Originally by: Jim McGregor 233 reads and 3 replies says "Minmatar not important" to me. ... maybe Minmater is not important to everyone, I think it is pretty obvious that Tier 3 Bettleships are designed for Fleet combat... 'The Charge of the Hyperions' Of course my opinion could be totally wrong, but 8 Turrets says only one thing to me
Merv Tring Minmatar	Posted - 2006.07.28 17:34:00 - [9] This is a quite important topic. The devs have stated, on several ocassions, that they want ships to have their own roles. Yet these new BSs, with the exception of the Rokh, don't fill a role that's not already filled by a different BS of that race. If you ask me, the Abaddon should have been a big Arbitrator. The Hyperion a big Celestis. And the Maelstrom... well, missiles and target painting would've actually been nice, especially with an 8/6/6 slot layout. The Rokh looks like a lovely ship, though.
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.07.28 17:36:00 - [10] Originally by: Katarina Hetiako Originally by: Jim McGregor 233 reads and 3 replies says "Minmatar not important" to me. ... maybe Minmater is not important to everyone, Thats my point actually. If this thread was about the Hyperion or Rokh not having a purpose, you would have 3 pages of replies by now. Seriously. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Jerick Ludhowe Arcana Imperii Ltd. Verisum Family	Posted - 2006.07.28 17:43:00 - [11] Edited by: Jerick Ludhowe on 28/07/2006 17:43:41 Originally by: Ishana Well seeing as the mael is slower and heavier, and has more turret slots, I would assume it's ment to be an arty boat. I agree, and for that reason I think the ROF bonus should be changed to a damage bonus on the Maelstorm. I think the Tempest should be the undisputed turret DPS king of the Minmatar while the Maelstorm would be the most powerfull non capital alpha strike platform in the game. I have also seen many people suggesting the Maelstorm have 7 mid slots. I agree with this to an extent as you would realisticly need a cap booster, ab/mwd, and scram before even fitting the tank for solo pvp. However I do not think thes tank heavy tier3s should be geared around solo pvp and for that reason I like the idea of the Maelstorm having 6 mids as it will still be able to tank better than most BSs however It will have to sacrifice tackling gear to do so, just like the Raven.
Stamm Amarr	Posted - 2006.07.28 17:43:00 - [12] When I looked at the stats I saw it as designed to do fair amounts of damage with a great tank. It won't do more damage than a pure damage tempest setup. But it will do more damage than a tempest, if the tempest is trying to match the maelstrom tank.
Fredbob Draconis Navitas Aeterna Pure.	Posted - 2006.07.28 17:43:00 - [13] Originally by: Merv Tring the Maelstrom... well, missiles and target painting would've actually been nice. I'm just glad it's not a missile & TP ship . I would have liked a stabber/vagabond style AC ship, but I guess speed just doesn't suit BS that well. While I'm not a fan of the Cyclone and it's t2 counterparts, I don't mind what the Maelstrom appears to be so far - a shooty-shooty turret ship with a different edge to the tempest and that other minnie battleship. ___________ ~Fredbob~
Jenny Spitfire Caldari	Posted - 2006.07.28 17:44:00 - [14] Originally by: Merv Tring This is a quite important topic. The devs have stated, on several ocassions, that they want ships to have their own roles. Yet these new BSs, with the exception of the Rokh, don't fill a role that's not already filled by a different BS of that race. If you ask me, the Abaddon should have been a big Arbitrator. The Hyperion a big Celestis. And the Maelstrom... well, missiles and target painting would've actually been nice, especially with an 8/6/6 slot layout. The Rokh looks like a lovely ship, though. I had a rumoured thread with exactly the same bonuses that you talked about but too many were drooling over DPS. I guessed they sort of got what they wanted. ---------------- RecruitMe@NOINT!
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.07.28 17:49:00 - [15] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 28/07/2006 17:50:11 Originally by: Jerick Ludhowe I have also seen many people suggesting the Maelstorm have 7 mid slots. I agree with this to an extent as you would realisticly need a cap booster, ab/mwd, and scram before even fitting the tank for solo pvp. However I do not think thes tank heavy tier3s should be geared around solo pvp and for that reason I like the idea of the Maelstorm having 6 mids as it will still be able to tank better than most BSs however It will have to sacrifice tackling gear to do so, just like the Raven. The main reason that 6 med slots doesnt work on this ship is that its a shield tanker. Tempest is very successful because it can armor tank and have tackling modules in the medium slots. So even if this boat was faster, it would be worse than the Tempest for pvp situations. And if this is supposed to be a artillery boat, it should have a DMG bonus. Give the ship a frigging purpose in the game. Edit: And before people start saying "But Raven is a good pvp ship", well, with autocannons you have to get IN RANGE. You cant just sit and spam missiles at any range like a Raven can. You have to account for transversal velocity and you also need to fit a web to hit something. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Vicarrah Minmatar	Posted - 2006.07.28 17:57:00 - [16] I fly Matari. I always have and always will.... I seriously think that the mael should stay the primary artillery strike platform, the tempest is multi-role, and the phoon is close strike. that said, I do believe that the other BS may need tweaking to fit those roles, and the mael may need some tweaking to fit its strike role better. see how it goes, take the long view, like we all needed to do for training Matari ships. Vicarrah Tahiri
Captain Dragotahl	Posted - 2006.07.28 17:58:00 - [17] ok im not gettign the argument that 6 slots isnt good enough as a shield tank. I mean hasnt the Raven been doing just fine as a shield tank until this time? And not to mention that the shield per second recharge rate is a lot better then the Rokh...I mean am I missing something?
Jerick Ludhowe Arcana Imperii Ltd. Verisum Family	Posted - 2006.07.28 18:04:00 - [18] Originally by: Jim McGregor The main reason that 6 med slots doesnt work on this ship is that its a shield tanker. Tempest is very successful because it can armor tank and have tackling modules in the medium slots. So even if this boat was faster, it would be worse than the Tempest for pvp situations. I know it is a shield tank and I understand that 6 mids is not enough space to fit tacking + a good tank. However if you shield tank you open up lows for 3x DMG mods so that is why I feel that if the ship was able to tackle, tank, and gank better than almost anything all in one it would be a ballance nightmare. This is why I like the idea of 6 mids as it allows the ship to focus on Max tank, and Max gank while other ships do the tackling (teamwork is a good thing). I do strongly agree that the ship needs a damage bonus though and I think that is the stat/bonus the comunity should be pushing to change.
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.07.28 18:18:00 - [19] Originally by: Jerick Ludhowe Edited by: Jerick Ludhowe on 28/07/2006 18:05:06 Originally by: Jim McGregor The main reason that 6 med slots doesnt work on this ship is that its a shield tanker. Tempest is very successful because it can armor tank and have tackling modules in the medium slots. So even if this boat was faster, it would be worse than the Tempest for pvp situations. I know it is a shield tank and I understand that 6 mids is not enough space to fit tacking + a good tank. However if you shield tank you open up lows for 3x DMG mods so that is why I feel that if the ship was able to tackle while also tanking and ganking better than almost anything all in one it would be a ballance nightmare. This is why I like the idea of 6 mids as it allows the ship to focus on Max tank, and Max gank while other ships do the tackling (teamwork is a good thing). I do strongly agree that the ship needs a damage bonus though and I think that is the stat/bonus the comunity should be pushing to change. Well, it only needs a DMG bonus if its supposed to be a artillery boat. That will give it a really good alphastrike, but lower dps than with ROF bonus. If its supposed to be a autocannon boat, ROF is actually better since it give higher dps over time. The problem is that it currently looks worse than Rohk in every single aspect of the game, if we assume both have 6 medium slots. All because of the Rohk optimal range bonus. At long range, Rohk can use better ammo than any other ship at any given range. That gives it a hidden damage bonus which is very significant. It will out-dps the Maelstrom by far. At short range, Rohk can use blasters with a optimal of around 18 km i believe. That gives it really, really good damage up close as well. Same thing here, it will outdamage the Maelstrom by far. Also the 25% resists to all damage on the Rohk is better than the +37.5% shield boost bonus on the Maelstrom. Resistance > shield boosting. So yeah... purpose for this boat, there is not. Rohk can also snipe at 100 km with antimatter from what i read. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Shayla Sh'inlux Millennium	Posted - 2006.07.28 18:24:00 - [20] Looking at the current stats it seems to be supposed to be an arty platform with a shieldtank. If it is supposed to be a close range ship it should get her 7th midslot, but also lose a load of powergrid. Arties = lows + powergrid + low cpu AC = mids + cpu + low powergrid. Mael now: can't decide between lows/mids + high powergrid + high cpu.
Jerick Ludhowe Arcana Imperii Ltd. Verisum Family	Posted - 2006.07.28 18:29:00 - [21] Well then I think the problem is more the Rohk more than anythis else. I'm worried that it will displace a large number of ships in a large number of situations however It will have one rather large disadvatage in fleet combat. The Rohk will have a rather small Alpha Strike compared to almost all the other Fleet platforms out there, this alone will prevent it from being the ultimate long range fleet ship that people keep saying it is going to be. I personally am more worried about the Rohk as a blaster platform to be honest. It will be able to mount a fat shield tank while still being able to do reasonable dps with 8x turrets and null as it will be able to mount 3x MFS easily. I also agree with you that 25% resistance is better than 37.5% boost amount for the simple reason that the 25% resistance bonus is always active.
Tharim Minmatar	Posted - 2006.07.28 18:31:00 - [22] Originally by: Captain Dragotahl ok im not gettign the argument that 6 slots isnt good enough as a shield tank. I mean hasnt the Raven been doing just fine as a shield tank until this time? And not to mention that the shield per second recharge rate is a lot better then the Rokh...I mean am I missing something? Yeah, you are. Raven is a missileboat, it can fit all its midslots with shield stuff. The maelstrom is a gunboat. It needs tracking mods/sensorboosters and a ab/mwd to be useful. www.eve-files.com/media/0602/CCP_tharim.gif[/IMG] Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 kbs, ty - Cortes
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.07.28 18:37:00 - [23] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 28/07/2006 18:39:32 Originally by: Jerick Ludhowe Well then I think the problem is more the Rohk more than anythis else. I'm worried that it will displace a large number of ships in a large number of situations however It will have one rather large disadvatage in fleet combat. The Rohk will have a rather small Alpha Strike compared to almost all the other Fleet platforms out there, this alone will prevent it from being the ultimate long range fleet ship that people keep saying it is going to be. I personally am more worried about the Rohk as a blaster platform to be honest. It will be able to mount a fat shield tank while still being able to do reasonable dps with 8x turrets and null as it will be able to mount 3x MFS easily. I also agree with you that 25% resistance is better than 37.5% boost amount for the simple reason that the 25% resistance bonus is always active. Dont underestimate the alphastrike of the Rohk. The ammo it can use is a built-in damage bonus. If ships are shooting at eachother at 160 km, the Rohk can use ammo that normally wouldnt reach that far, and hit for more damage than the opposing ship. That can count as a nice DMG bonus. Im no expert on the Rohk though. It just seems way better right now, but we'll have to see what the ships look like when they are on the test server. Not that i can fly most of them, but i trust people who can will speak up... Im no fan of the Hyperion either since i think it will be far superior to the Tempest. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Stephar Amarr	Posted - 2006.07.28 18:39:00 - [24] I think one problem is these new battleships are tier 3. If you gave Amarr a tier 3 drone carrier, the Dominix would be obsolete. If you gave Gallente a tier 3 missle spammer, the Raven would be obsolete. So you're left in the odd situation of stepping on other race's toes (the Rokh), or playing it safe and coming up with something redundant (the Hyperion).
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.07.28 18:41:00 - [25] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 28/07/2006 18:42:20 Originally by: Stephar I think one problem is these new battleships are tier 3. If you gave Amarr a tier 3 drone carrier, the Dominix would be obsolete. If you gave Gallente a tier 3 missle spammer, the Raven would be obsolete. So you're left in the odd situation of stepping on other race's toes (the Rokh), or playing it safe and coming up with something redundant (the Hyperion). Well, not if they do it right. The Typhoon is a great ship that can be as good as the Raven, using a mix of launchers and projectiles. I would love some more of that thinking when it comes to tier 3. Make the ships different without replacing something else. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Tiuwaz Minmatar	Posted - 2006.07.28 18:41:00 - [26] you only have to read this thread to see that ppl are comletely confused what the mael is supposed to do besides tanking some say it s obviously designed for AC others say its surely an artillery platform then there is another portion who thinks its multirole me and a minortiy speculate it is designed for medium range engagement (even tough arties are possibly the worst midrange weapons in eve) so a little clarifaction would be neat, if even the devs dont know yet themselves, then the future looks bleak indeed Originally by: Oveur This is not the conspiracy you are looking for.
Jet Collins	Posted - 2006.07.28 18:46:00 - [27] isn't the role obvious? Its to be a low sec miner... Sorry could not help it.
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.07.28 18:54:00 - [28] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 28/07/2006 18:54:54 Originally by: Jet Collins isn't the role obvious? Its to be a low sec miner... Sorry could not help it. Sorry, Rohk does that one better too. The old stats say Rohk has 625 m3 cargo space while Maelstrom has 550. Rohk does however have one less low slots for cargo expanders. But it has 690 CPU compared to Maelstroms 625. Yeah yeah, old stats, I know. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Jet Collins	Posted - 2006.07.28 18:56:00 - [29] lol well the slots and cargo space an not officeal . Also not tux said in his blog the bonuses may change as well so people don't get to set on them. But if you really do hate them keep talking and maybe Tux will change
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.07.28 18:57:00 - [30] Originally by: Jet Collins lol well the slots and cargo space an not officeal . Also not tux said in his blog the bonuses may change as well so people don't get to set on them. But if you really do hate them keep talking and maybe Tux will change I have both Caldari and Minmatar skills, so either ship is fine to me. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate

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