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Alha Qmar
Caldari
Xenon Logistics
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Posted - 2006.08.02 22:54:00 -
[1]
I have a few hundred mills to blow on a t1 bpo, in the first place I was looking at the ship market but these aren't very profiteble. Esp if you look at bc, they are only 1-2 million profit per ship thats barely 7-8% gain.
Now I totally have no clue what kind of t1 bpo's I can get that still yield a good profit of 30% and more. And that are worth something more then 500 k.
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Brain Day
Explode. Now. Please.
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Posted - 2006.08.03 00:44:00 -
[2]
BS bpc's sell well, if you can only get one get a raven bpo and research to some stupid high lvl and sell the copies. Many people still believe that high 30+ me prints are some kind of uber mineral saver which of course they are not. However if people BELIEVE that they are better then they ARE better, regardless of any actual reality, play on that.
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SonOfAGhost
Minmatar
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2006.08.03 04:02:00 -
[3]
Short answer, there's (varying degrees of) decent profit in anything other than T1 frigates and the small weapons/modules/ammo for them. Lots of people make their first production dabblings in the the things they use anyway.
Secondary answer, your accounting is flawed. What's the difference between selling 1 item a week at 30% margin and selling 5 items a week at 7-8% margin? Don't get hung up on per-unit profit. It is good to keep track of, important to know when the price war with the undercutter has gone far enough to just buy up his stock and jack the price up  . If you only do a small volume higher margin becomes important of course, but at the end of the day net profit is net profit, regardless of # of items sold or gross sales value.
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Hehulk
5punkorp
Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.08.03 17:43:00 -
[4]
-Buy T1 BPO
-Go to 0.0 (ISS Tycho would be a good place )
-Produce and sell T1 item at acceptable markup
-Smile at 20 mil per day profit 
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Lygos
ISS Navy Task Force
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Posted - 2006.08.03 18:51:00 -
[5]
 Originally by: Hehulk
-Buy T1 BPO
-Go to 0.0 (ISS Tycho would be a good place )
-Produce and sell T1 item at acceptable markup
-Smile at 20 mil per day profit
Oh shush, I am still ownzoring the WCS market there.
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2006.08.04 00:58:00 -
[6]
I personally have buy orders on some ships and then resell them on the market and make a 2-10+ mil per... I'd imagine the people making the ships are making more than me if they sell them themselves.
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Cally
Amarr
Eve Intergalactic Bank
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Posted - 2006.08.04 02:53:00 -
[7]
I have to agree with one of the previous posters to this thread in regards to your markup reasoning.
It is far better to sell 10 battlecruisers for less than 10% markup (i.e approx 25m total profit using 200-250m layout) than selling 2 or 3 in the same amount of time for 20% markup.
What you should be basing your profits on is by time i.e how much profit you can make per hour or day.
When you base your profits on time alone, you get a better idea of how profitable a blueprint is.
So for example, If I can make 140 raven battleships a month, this will cost me in the region of 11.2 billion isk in minerals depending on market prices for a months worth of production.
Roughly a cost of 80m per ship.
Every week after a weeks worth of production I would then put them on the market.
Now, If I sold these at a price that is average on the market, i.e around 100m isk each, then I may only sell half of them during that coming week whilst others are in production.
It would get to the stage where I could no longer make any more ships as no more money has come in from sales to cover the purchase of minerals.
So, in a month I may have sold 90 ravens out of 140 based on selling them at 100m and making 20m profit on each one.
That would bring me back around 9b of which 1.8b would be profit from a certain point of view. However, I would still be nearly 3 billion down on my cash flow for the month.
I would be unable to run a full month of production again until more sold since I would lack the capital to make 140 again. So It may take another half a month to sell everything.
So after a month and half, I would have made around 2.8 billion profit which is around 62m per day.
Now if instead you were to sell the ravens at 95m, you would be undercutting alot of people and therefore your items are far more likely to sell. So much in fact that you would easily shift 140 ravens selling them at different locations using a freighter.
After everything has sold, you should see profit in the region of 2.1 billion for a month which works out at 70m per day.
So basically, that small reduction in profit per sale, actually makes you a better turnover when looked at on a profit per day basis.
Because you may not have that sort of capital to begin with, see if you can get hold of a good cheap battlecruiser BPO thats researched or even a decent cruiser BPO, research it a little more and then manufacture them at 0.0 gateways (high security systems adjacent to 0.0) and you will see a high volume of sales if you keep your profit to around 10% markup because pvpers and pirates that hang around low sec systems near 0.0 gateways are always in need of replacement ships.
Remember cash flow is the important thing so you need to have the quickest turnaround possible whilst still making good profits that are worthwhile.
Its also a good idea to try and obtain blueprints for the modules specific to that ship you make i.e if you make brutix battlecruisers, try to obtain the following BPOs
Microwarp drive 10mn
medium neutron blasters
medium nos
medium cap injector
medium armour repper
warp scrambler
stasis webifier
Medium drone (hammerhead, valkerie etc)
Medium hybrid ammo (antimatter etc)
and other race specific modules to go with the ship.
You will find that when people buy a ship, 9/10 times they look on the market in that station for modules to kit it out with.
Majority of hardcore pvpers cant afford tech2 equipment, or rather afford to lose it when pvping, so tech1 is what they buy.
Again, markup may not be much but your utilising that ship sale by gaining more sales someone else would normally get.
However you decide to base how profitable something is, the time to see a decent rate of turnover is the main thing you should look for.
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Leneerra
Minmatar
Trinity Nova
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Posted - 2006.08.04 06:56:00 -
[8]
Actually having the needed modules for a ship for sale at a decent price will even boost ship sales
as people will fly 1 or 2 jumps to be able to purchase everything in one station
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Shiner BockBeer
Go Go Gadget ForumPostingAlt
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Posted - 2006.08.05 18:47:00 -
[9]
You're right in your assumption that ship BPO's are really the only profitable ones, but you're not really looking in the right place to make money at it.
The highest profitability from a ship BP comes from buying copies and building with recycled mission loot. Your only real cost is the BPC though sometimes you'll find yourself needing to by iso or zyd. On top of that, you get paid for killing the rats in the first place.
Enjoy.
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Argenton Sayvers
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Posted - 2006.08.05 19:41:00 -
[10]
Not this debate again - Minerals that you "rat" are still not free. The initial capital is smaller (you dont need to buy minerals from market, you have a bunch of minerals you are looking to sell in the first place), but the cost still stays the same - minerals have a market value. This might be a good idea if the station your agent is in has a factory and a big population requiring the products. Its basically a different form of selling your minerals.
If you have to haul the minerals around, buy some from market etc its usually much better to just let them pile up and drop them on market instead. Every minute you spend administrating your production you dont spend blowing up rats...
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Shiner BockBeer
Go Go Gadget ForumPostingAlt
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Posted - 2006.08.05 21:09:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Shiner BockBeer on 05/08/2006 21:10:33
Originally by: Argenton Sayvers
but the cost still stays the same - minerals have a market value.
Not this debate again.
When you're doing the calculation for profitability you have to use your actual cost for obtaining the minerals, not a hypothetical value based upon what you might get if you just sell them directly. At no point did I assert that minerals recycled from mission loot are "free." There is a cost but it is more than offset by the rewards of doing the missions.
Its still true that the profit margin for building ships from loot is higher than when building them off market-purchased minerals. The drawback is that you build fewer ships over time.
Occasionally you need to buy iso and zyd to make up for a shortfall, some of that is offset by selling pyer, which always seems to end up in surplus. In the end though, the cost of the iso and zyd isn't enough to reduce the profitability by much.
As or administering production, it takes a lot less time than sorting loot and placing sell orders for the good stuff. Starting three factory jobs is the work of a few minutes at the end of a long day slaving over a hot cruise launcher. ;)
**edit stupid browser...
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Wolfgang Jager
Caldari
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
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Posted - 2006.08.06 19:41:00 -
[12]
Many T1 BPOs are still viable for production - it all depends on your willingness to transport and what you consider an acceptable volume of sale and mark up.
I make a great deal of money on assorted T1 ship modules commonly used in mission running set up and supporting ammo types. Generally speaking I am able to reliably sell them at 25-50% above the market value of the minerals needed to produce them.
To some degree it is a matter of knowing the mission hubs near you and being willing to drop in and out of markets freely. If someone comes along and undercuts a given product badly in large numbers, I just bail on that market - toss the BPO back in research for a few weeks until it is profitable again.
You can also raise profits by dispersion - lots of people will pay well over the going market rate for items if it means they can restock without leaving a station or system. Joe mission runner loses more on the 30min trip to buy another 10k torpedos than if he paid a few % more in mark up at his home base.
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Eralus
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Posted - 2006.08.07 12:08:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Shiner BockBeer
Its still true that the profit margin for building ships from loot is higher than when building them off market-purchased minerals.
No, it's not. There is no difference, period. The profit margin for making a ship off of minerals you can sell for 100 million isk and the profit margin for making a ship with minerals you can buy for 100 million isk is EXACTLY THE SAME. Trying to convince someone otherwise only demonstrates that you don't understand basic economics.
_____
Lifewire is a big, ugly, mean... carebear. |
Argenton Sayvers
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Posted - 2006.08.07 14:12:00 -
[14]
Exactly - selling a build t1 product requires more steps then just production.
If you get the minerals for 0 ISK (for example from a 0.00 ISK escrow), and build 10 Caracals from it that you sell for 4.4m, then the profit of your *entire* operation is 44m. But when it comes to deciding about the profit of the production step, you have to use the realistic sale price for minerals. Every producer is a part-time mineral trader!
If there are buy orders in your station that would allow you to sell your minerals for 43.5m, then the profit of the production step is only 500k ISK.
The real problems arise from the very high base "wages" you could get for running missions or mining. 10m per hour doing basic grind is realistic, so every minute you spend doing math to figure out what to do costs you roughly 160k ISK.
It is sometimes hard to judge the realistic prices, because you need to invest work to actually realize them. The actual enjoyment you get from various aspects of the game is nigh impossible to quantify.
These observations may be going off topic, but i think they are important for judging wich BPOs are still worth it.
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Pang Grohl
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.08.07 18:32:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Shiner BockBeer
Edited by: Shiner BockBeer on 05/08/2006 21:10:33
Originally by: Argenton Sayvers
but the cost still stays the same - minerals have a market value.
Not this debate again.
When you're doing the calculation for profitability you have to use your actual cost for obtaining the minerals, not a hypothetical value based upon what you might get if you just sell them directly. At no point did I assert that minerals recycled from mission loot are "free." There is a cost but it is more than offset by the rewards of doing the missions.
Its still true that the profit margin for building ships from loot is higher than when building them off market-purchased minerals. The drawback is that you build fewer ships over time.
Occasionally you need to buy iso and zyd to make up for a shortfall, some of that is offset by selling pyer, which always seems to end up in surplus. In the end though, the cost of the iso and zyd isn't enough to reduce the profitability by much.
As or administering production, it takes a lot less time than sorting loot and placing sell orders for the good stuff. Starting three factory jobs is the work of a few minutes at the end of a long day slaving over a hot cruise launcher. ;)
**edit stupid browser...
How do you determine your unit base cost? The minerals you get from loot have to have some value in order to determine your cost to produce an item.
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Kaylana Syi
Minmatar
The Nest
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Posted - 2006.08.11 08:03:00 -
[16]
Scenario.
I own an armageddon that is paid for. My setup is entirely paid for. I use no ammo and loose no drones.
I NPC hunt in 0.0 and have access to a minmatar outpost and scapmetal lvl 5 where I loose 10% of all my minerals to the outpost owners.
I also have fly a carrier which can effectivly haul 30k m/3 of loot back to empire in one jump where I can refine at scrapmetal 5 for ~100% efficiency.
When I can sell to the 0.0 locals for about 10% over empire prices for my minerals they can make up for any loss I make refining there. If they aren't buying I can haul back to empire where I get the 10% bonus to efficency - fuel cost.
About 30k loot m/3 brings about 480mil in minerals for me for market value. The Bounties collected for that amount of m/3 is about 200-250. The modules that don't go into refines usually bring in about 50-100mil.
So... 780mil for a weekend of ratting. My logistics are even better than someone who buys off of the market in empire. I can take my mins still compressed in impels out of the lowsec without risk and refine them somewhere else or run my entire production operation out of the low sec.
I'd say empire producers are nowhere near hitting my efficiency. My profit margins are far superior.
Team Minmatar
Carriers need Clone Vats
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Mervent
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2006.08.11 21:18:00 -
[17]
Kaylana,
I am impressed. I do not have all your skills or ships, but it sounds like you have a nice operation going there. Congrats.
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Kaylana Syi
Minmatar
The Nest
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Posted - 2006.08.12 06:34:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Mervent
Kaylana,
I am impressed. I do not have all your skills or ships, but it sounds like you have a nice operation going there. Congrats.
Thank you...fyi any corp could have similar operations. As for skill... I can easily use my 4mil amarr alt's armageddon to do do all the NPCing which is 80% of all the work done.
Its not out of the reach of anyone by any means.
Team Minmatar
Carriers need Clone Vats
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Ankanos
Caldari
School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2006.08.15 22:25:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Kaylana Syi
Thank you...fyi any corp could have similar operations. As for skill... I can easily use my 4mil amarr alt's armageddon to do do all the NPCing which is 80% of all the work done.
Its not out of the reach of anyone by any means.
very intersting.. tell me, can one cloak a carrier like any other ship?
-ank
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