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TiGGar Shadow
CBC Interstellar
Fidelas Constans
0
   |
Posted - 2014.09.15 15:22:00 -
[1] - Quote
We don`t see machariels pirate bs, marruders in fleet fights becouse Carrier for same price is better.
Afk Ratting carrier making 100mln/h in any nullsec system for 1.5b cost, incursion guy need 3b blinged ship and be active with fleet for same amount of money. |
Solette Cheli
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
17
|
Posted - 2014.09.15 15:26:00 -
[2] - Quote
TiGGar Shadow wrote:We don`t see machariels pirate bs, marruders in fleet fights becouse Carrier for same price is better.
Afk Ratting carrier making 100mln/h in any nullsec system for 1.5b cost, incursion guy need 3b blinged ship and be active with fleet for same amount of money.
Um.. I'm pretty sure that's got nothing to do with production costs, it more to do with the fact that the blueprints for pirate ships are rare.
There are drawbacks for carriers though, no gate jumping, no highsec, high priority targets and easily destroyed by a group of dreads, probably other things as well. |
Antillie Sa'Kan
Forging Industries
Silent Infinity
680
|
Posted - 2014.09.15 15:35:00 -
[3] - Quote
Carriers are also just flat out better than any subcap in any combat situation. They are the hard counter to all subcaps in every situation and can only be threatened by other capitals. The fact that they are cheaper than some of the "best" subcaps is just a bonus. |
Sobaan Tali
Caldari Quick Reaction Force
360
|
Posted - 2014.09.15 15:49:00 -
[4] - Quote
Carriers, even just one of them, make substantially more of an influence on the field than any sole BS, even compared to pirate and Marauders. As force multipliers, Carriers are worth way more in their weight. Marauders, in the best of scenarios, are very situational ships (they are T2 after all) that are either very poor choices to bring or impressive, and pirate BS, as lethal as they can be, don't have nearly the same survivability and thus staying power as carriers even before triage is thrown in to the mix due to much less EHP and them being tempting bullet sponges. |
TiGGar Shadow
CBC Interstellar
Fidelas Constans
0
|
Posted - 2014.09.15 16:18:00 -
[5] - Quote
That was mine impresion thay are very cost effective maybe to much. |
Danika Princip
Freelance Economics Astrological resources
Tactical Narcotics Team
2903
|
Posted - 2014.09.15 16:24:00 -
[6] - Quote
You do realise that this would lead to literally everyone investing billions in carriers, then either reprocessing them or just selling them on for silly profit margins, right?
And you wouldn't actually be dealing with arrier blobs like this, you'd just be making them harder to oppose.
And two ishtars/VNIs/Gilas will make the 100m/hr mark, for an investment of ~300 mil. Or a T1 battleship in an incursion with a group that isn't awful. Or anyone in a high end WH. or anyone with a decent LP stream in FW or the right kinds of faction missions.
And none of those involve sitting in a ~2b capital with your arse hanging in the breeze.
Also, why balance a PVP ship around it's RATTING performance anyway? |
Antillie Sa'Kan
Forging Industries
Silent Infinity
681
|
Posted - 2014.09.15 16:33:00 -
[7] - Quote
Also, if cost was a balancing factor then Titans would not have needed several nerfs over the years. Just because something is expensive doesn't mean that large coalitions won't field them by the hundreds on a regular basis. |
Elusive Panda
Tactical Grace Inc.
Nerfed Alliance Go Away
69
|
Posted - 2014.09.15 16:37:00 -
[8] - Quote
Would you be so kind as to point me in the direction of those AFK Ratting carriers please?
Thank you! |
TiGGar Shadow
CBC Interstellar
Fidelas Constans
0
|
Posted - 2014.09.15 16:39:00 -
[9] - Quote
main reason is, fleet progression is t1 bs--> navy bs --> carrier-->dread-->super why there is no bs t2 or pirate bs becouse for same price carrier is way better |
Danika Princip
Freelance Economics Astrological resources
Tactical Narcotics Team
2903
|
Posted - 2014.09.15 16:57:00 -
[10] - Quote
So your entire logic for this is based around the metagame?
Did it not occur to you that T2 and pirate BS are harder to build than carriers, and fulfil completely different roles?
And you missed out all the other fleet doctrines, of which there are dozens. Where do HAC fleets fit in your little progression tree? or t3s? Or frigates even?
Now, can you explain how you think that putting carriers into the same pricerange as dreads is going to actually change anything? |
TiGGar Shadow
CBC Interstellar
Fidelas Constans
0
|
Posted - 2014.09.15 17:52:00 -
[11] - Quote
There is moa/gila doctrin and thay are pirate ship. Thanatos lvl5 clean 640k ehp =1.3b price machariel 43k ehp = 600mln nagflar 800k ehp= 2,5b paladin 43k ehp = 900 mln
In the end it`s all about money why there is some many medium size doctrines Hac/moa/gila and few bs size doctrines becouse after navy bs next best option is carrier. |
Kell Braugh
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
14
|
Posted - 2014.09.15 18:07:00 -
[12] - Quote
Antillie Sa'Kan wrote:Carriers ... can only be threatened by other capitals.
Said no ratting/solo carrier tackled by a roaming gang of any non-trivial size ever. |
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
2658
|
Posted - 2014.09.15 18:08:00 -
[13] - Quote
Elusive Panda wrote:Would you be so kind as to point me in the direction of those AFK Ratting carriers please?
Thank you!
Roam through renter space and you'll almost certainly find a few. |
TiGGar Shadow
CBC Interstellar
Fidelas Constans
0
|
Posted - 2014.09.15 18:27:00 -
[14] - Quote
not mentioning insurance .. for platinium you got 250mln = 980mln so real cost of carrier is 500mln to the answer about what would change if carrier move to dread price pool I ask you what would change if dread move to carrier price pool 500mln per hull. I bet there wasnt be any structure grining drama we facing atm and better to log off than grind structures story. |
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
Late Night Alliance
6095
|
Posted - 2014.09.15 18:28:00 -
[15] - Quote
Antillie Sa'Kan wrote:Carriers ... can only be threatened by other capitals.
Nooooooooo... a solo carrier is a DEAD carrier. I can point one in an interceptor and it won't be able to do anything against me (not even with regular drones).
I can bring in an active rep battleship (one that can hold a 500 hp/sec tank)... and I will be able to SOLO any lonely carrier.
Only blobs of carriers can only be threatened by other capitals... but then again... blobs of any ship can usually only be threatened by a much larger force of the same kind.
Raising the costs of carriers isn't going to change this much larger tactical issue.
TiGGar Shadow wrote:main reason is, fleet progression is t1 bs--> navy bs --> carrier-->dread-->super why there is no bs t2 or pirate bs becouse for same price carrier is way better
Because Tech 1 battleships can often do the same things that a Tech 2 / Faction / Pirate battleship can do for a fraction of the cost. Carriers do not even come into the equation.
In fleet work, you do not bring a Marauder. Active tanking is pointless (large fleets = large alpha = need a large buffer tank) and you NEED to be able to receive remote reps (making Bastion Mode useless). And outside of Bastion Mode a Marauder is extremely weak to E-war (more so than Tech 1 ships).
In Fleet work, you do not bring navy / pirate battleships unless you have something specific in mind (ex. heavy sniping using Navy Apocs, beefier missile slinging from a Fleet Typhoon, capital neuting support with Bhaalgorns, etc).
The reason for this is that Navy ships only get 1 extra slot and 50% more HP. Pirate ships get 1 extra slot, 50% more HP, and a weird "trait" that is mildly gamebreaking in small scale warfare. If you just want straight, focused combat then Tech 1 battleships can pretty much perform the same as their faction variants. There is no need to spend that much money.
Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective.
"How did you veterans start?" |
Adrie Atticus
the shadow plague
The Bastion
320
|
Posted - 2014.09.15 18:32:00 -
[16] - Quote
TiGGar Shadow wrote:There is moa/gila doctrin and thay are pirate ship. Thanatos lvl5 clean 640k ehp =1.3b price machariel 43k ehp = 600mln nagflar 800k ehp= 2,5b paladin 43k ehp = 900 mln
In the end it`s all about money why there is some many medium size doctrines Hac/moa/gila and few bs size doctrines becouse after navy bs next best option is carrier.
Where can I get a fitted carrier for 1.3B? |
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Ineluctable.
698
|
Posted - 2014.09.15 18:34:00 -
[17] - Quote
Adrie Atticus wrote:TiGGar Shadow wrote:There is moa/gila doctrin and thay are pirate ship. Thanatos lvl5 clean 640k ehp =1.3b price machariel 43k ehp = 600mln nagflar 800k ehp= 2,5b paladin 43k ehp = 900 mln
In the end it`s all about money why there is some many medium size doctrines Hac/moa/gila and few bs size doctrines becouse after navy bs next best option is carrier. Where can I get a fitted carrier for 1.3B?
These are all Hull prices. |
Alternative Splicing
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
82
|
Posted - 2014.09.15 18:48:00 -
[18] - Quote
TiGGar Shadow wrote:There is moa/gila doctrin and thay are pirate ship. Thanatos lvl5 clean 640k ehp =1.3b price machariel 43k ehp = 600mln nagflar 800k ehp= 2,5b paladin 43k ehp = 900 mln
In the end it`s all about money why there is some many medium size doctrines Hac/moa/gila and few bs size doctrines becouse after navy bs next best option is carrier.
If you want to see pirate battleships make a comeback, make battleships practical in small gangs. |
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Ineluctable.
698
|
Posted - 2014.09.15 19:13:00 -
[19] - Quote
They are practical, but people blob too much. As soon as the intel network caught wind of a BS or 2 in reach, the BS are doomed. Not BS are impractical, players make them impractical.  |
Absolutely Not Analt
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
125
|
Posted - 2014.09.15 19:16:00 -
[20] - Quote
Kell Braugh wrote:Antillie Sa'Kan wrote:Carriers ... can only be threatened by other capitals. Said no ratting/solo carrier tackled by a roaming gang of any non-trivial size ever.
Oh how I wish this was true.
Eve is a multi player game.-áAnd you are the content. - Ralph King-Griffin
Being meh at two things is not better than being great at one. - Lugh Crow-Slave
|
Antillie Sa'Kan
Forging Industries
Silent Infinity
683
|
Posted - 2014.09.15 19:26:00 -
[21] - Quote
Kell Braugh wrote:Said no ratting/solo carrier tackled by a roaming gang of any non-trivial size ever.
I was referring to a fleet of carriers in a PVP setting. Anything can be ganked if it is alone.
+1 for the Archer reference though. |
Antillie Sa'Kan
Forging Industries
Silent Infinity
683
|
Posted - 2014.09.15 19:28:00 -
[22] - Quote
ShahFluffers wrote:Nooooooooo... a solo carrier is a DEAD carrier. I can point one in an interceptor and it won't be able to do anything against me (not even with regular drones).
This is why I used the plural form of carrier. Show me any sub cap fleet of any size that can threaten a proper carrier fleet.
Since this is a thread about fleets in a PVP context I thought that was understood. |
Kell Braugh
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
16
|
Posted - 2014.09.15 19:48:00 -
[23] - Quote
Antillie Sa'Kan wrote:Kell Braugh wrote:Said no ratting/solo carrier tackled by a roaming gang of any non-trivial size ever. I was referring to a fleet of carriers in a PVP setting. Anything can be ganked if it is alone.
Sorry, I see that now. The OP was clearly talking about ratting though. |
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
Late Night Alliance
6096
|
Posted - 2014.09.15 19:52:00 -
[24] - Quote
Antillie Sa'Kan wrote:ShahFluffers wrote:Nooooooooo... a solo carrier is a DEAD carrier. I can point one in an interceptor and it won't be able to do anything against me (not even with regular drones). This is why I used the plural form of carrier. Show me any sub cap fleet of any size that can threaten a proper carrier fleet. Since this is a thread about fleets in a PVP context I thought that was understood.
 Uh huh.
Antillie Sa'Kan wrote:Carriers are also just flat out better than any subcap in any combat situation. They are the hard counter to all subcaps in every situation and can only be threatened by other capitals. The fact that they are cheaper than some of the "best" subcaps is just a bonus.
Bolded and underlined the important bit you might want to change.
And I will reiterate what I said before;
- a solo carrier is WORSE that a battleship in most combat situations. It attracts way too much attention in K-space (which will result in a hotdrop) and (outside of tank) is about equal to a battleship in terms of combat ability.
- large fleets of anything usually do not have a "hard counter." You can throw 1000 Rifters at someone and the only way anyone is going to stop them is by either up-shipping or outnumbering them. Carriers are no different in this respect.
The problem is not necessarily the ship itself (though carrier do need to be addressed for other reasons)... it's the blob and the pure inefficiency of some ships in being in or dealing with blobs (in this case; T2, Faction, and Pirate battleships).
- the high cost of T2, Faction, and Pirate battleships is based on factors other than material value. Rarity also adds to the price. And it isn't out of line either.
For example: Tech 2/Faction/Pirate frigates often cost as much as a cruiser. Tech 2/Faction/Pirate cruisers often cost as much as battleships. Ergo, Tech 2/Faction/Pirate battleships often cost as much as carriers (and some dreds).
Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective.
"How did you veterans start?" |
Antillie Sa'Kan
Forging Industries
Silent Infinity
683
|
Posted - 2014.09.15 20:24:00 -
[25] - Quote
ShahFluffers wrote:Antillie Sa'Kan wrote:ShahFluffers wrote:Nooooooooo... a solo carrier is a DEAD carrier. I can point one in an interceptor and it won't be able to do anything against me (not even with regular drones). This is why I used the plural form of carrier. Show me any sub cap fleet of any size that can threaten a proper carrier fleet. Since this is a thread about fleets in a PVP context I thought that was understood. Uh huh. Antillie Sa'Kan wrote:Carriers are also just flat out better than any subcap in any combat situation. They are the hard counter to all subcaps in every situation and can only be threatened by other capitals. The fact that they are cheaper than some of the "best" subcaps is just a bonus. Bolded and underlined the important bit you might want to change. And I will reiterate what I said before; - a solo carrier is WORSE that a battleship in most combat situations. It attracts way too much attention in K-space (which will result in a hotdrop) and (outside of tank) is about equal to a battleship in terms of combat ability. - large fleets of anything usually do not have a "hard counter." You can throw 1000 Rifters at someone and the only way anyone is going to stop them is by either up-shipping or outnumbering them. Carriers are no different in this respect. The problem is not necessarily the ship itself (though carrier do need to be addressed for other reasons)... it's the blob and the pure inefficiency of some ships in being in or dealing with blobs (in this case; T2, Faction, and Pirate battleships). - the high cost of T2, Faction, and Pirate battleships is based on factors other than material value. Rarity also adds to the price. And it isn't out of line either. For example: Tech 2/Faction/Pirate frigates often cost as much as a cruiser. Tech 2/Faction/Pirate cruisers often cost as much as battleships. Ergo, Tech 2/Faction/Pirate battleships often cost as much as carriers (and some dreds).
My post is in the context of a fleet of carriers in a PVP fight. As inherited from the OP talking about "fleet fights" and wondering why people deploy fleets of carriers and not fleets of Machs or Vindis or whatever. The references to "any situation" are intended to be limited to this scope. Perhaps the context of the thread did not make that clear.
Of course a single carrier is little more than hotdrop bait. A couple hundred carriers on the other hand will rofl stomp literally any subcap fleet, regardless of size or composition, with zero losses, every time. Surely you have heard of a "boot fleet" as employed by the CFC? |
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
Late Night Alliance
6096
|
Posted - 2014.09.15 20:39:00 -
[26] - Quote
Yes, I have heard of the "boot"/"slowcat"/"Pantheon" fleets. And I will keep repeating that any ship in sufficiently large quantities is basically "invulnerable" unless you up-ship or outnumber it.
As for there being no fleets of Vindi or Machs... because again, if all you want is "muscle" then anything other than Tech 1 battleships simply a waste (poor price to performance). Mind you, large fleets do bring Bhaalgorns and Vindis sometimes... but their role is often very focused and does not inculde damage dealing (at least not primarily).
Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective.
"How did you veterans start?" |
Antillie Sa'Kan
Forging Industries
Silent Infinity
683
|
Posted - 2014.09.15 20:52:00 -
[27] - Quote
ShahFluffers wrote:Yes, I have heard of the "boot"/"slowcat"/"Pantheon" fleets. And I will keep repeating that any ship in sufficiently large quantities is basically "invulnerable" unless you up-ship or outnumber it.
As for there being no fleets of Vindi or Machs... because again, if all you want is "muscle" then anything other than Tech 1 battleships simply a waste (poor price to performance). Mind you, large fleets do bring Bhaalgorns and Vindis sometimes... but their role is often very focused and does not inculde damage dealing (at least not primarily).
Outnumbering a slowcat fleet with subcaps doesn't change anything. The carriers still always win with no losses. A proper carrier fleet is immune to subcaps in every way. Mix some super carriers in and they are also immune to any other capital fleet that does not significantly outnumber them.
You are quite right about the faction BS hulls though. Outside of a few very specific rolls they are terrible for price to performance once the fight gets beyond "small gang" size.
Basically people use carriers because one you get more than a certain number of them they achieve a "critical mass" of sorts that makes them totally OP. As for people using them to rat... well... there will always be idiots out there. |
Behr Oroo
The Circus Corp
Intrepid Crossing
79
|
Posted - 2014.09.15 21:34:00 -
[28] - Quote
How bout no..... geez
|
Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
485
|
Posted - 2014.09.15 22:53:00 -
[29] - Quote
TiGGar Shadow wrote:We don`t see machariels pirate bs, marruders in fleet fights becouse Carrier for same price is better.
Afk Ratting carrier making 100mln/h in any nullsec system for 1.5b cost, incursion guy need 3b blinged ship and be active with fleet for same amount of money.
AFK carriers tend to go boom, easy.
Secondly....blinging a pirate or maruader is a player choice. Run that mach or vindi in its by design armour tank and watch the costs go down. You might also find logi's might like you more. Armour logi on a proper armour tank a thing of beauty. Shield logi on a half assed shield tank....not working as well. I know...tank by gank, dead targets don't shoot back, etc....Want that min/max setup its gonna cost some isk.
You see its when you ghetto shield tank them they get expensive. As they are lacking the mids for a "true" shield tank. Not a lot of mids, lower shield stats....well then you have to throw on the shiny A or B type gear. Gear whose sellers know exactly what ships its going on, so they say I know you want it so pay me for it.
That and rattlesnake says hi. Don't like the cost of your pirates, talk to the people spamming the bpc's. Rattlers fully built go for much cheaper than other pirates. And rattler tanks nicely pure t2. I know its not a blap vindi. People who sell vindi's make you pay for the pleasure of having that.
I know, also, missiles not liked in incursions. Well looky here....player's choice again. Want to to enjoy the isk per hour, enjoy paying for the boats that get that faster. Me...I am a modest (read cheap) pve'er. 1 billion less in fittings is a faster meeting of ROI so I start to make a profit faster.
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