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Mr Bright
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Posted - 2006.08.04 08:56:00 -
[1]
One thing thats been a bit ignored is the new suggested assaults missils. A "short range" cruise size missils weapon. Tuxford suggested 15km base range.......
Lets see with lvl4 skills without a ship bonus that will be about 27km - thats not short range for a cruiser. problem is that we have 2 skills that boost missil range that both give 10% range (flight speed and flight time) add to that that some dedicated caldari missil ships have a 10% flight speed bonus as well. Thats a potential 150% extra range....
I do hope this will be factored into the missils stats, especially if it is given close range damage... at 30km ?
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Alliaanna Dalaii
Gallente
Does Not Compute
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Posted - 2006.08.04 09:04:00 -
[2]
Torpedos are supposadly close range weapons as well. So I wouldn't count on it 
On the other hand, This launcher needs to be usable by all races. And giving it a range that fits in with caldari bonus's would mean non bonused ships end up with something ridiculous like a 10km range missile  
Alliaanna
Official Spokestard of=-= Does Not Compute =-=
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Jethro Man
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Posted - 2006.08.04 09:13:00 -
[3]
Make the velocity really slow like torpedos so it makes it suck to use them at long ranges.
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Disco Flint
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.08.04 09:25:00 -
[4]
 Originally by: Tuxford
...and have a range of about 15km with no ship range bonuses.
Pretty sure those 15km are with all skills already taken into account, say with Missile Bombardement & Projection 5, a Caracal and Caldari Cruiser 5 you'd reach 22,5km.
15km as base range without skills would really be too much.
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Mr Bright
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Posted - 2006.08.04 09:43:00 -
[5]
Read your post, then vent back to the Blog - I do think you are right. Guess I am just to seeing caldari love in abundance.
Still if the new assault missils gets "close range damage" out to 22km thats... still hardly balanced at all.
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Disco Flint
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.08.04 10:13:00 -
[6]
yeah, above 20km range is still quite ridiculous for a high dmg / short range weapon, but then you have to think about those ships with missiles as a secondary weapon and no range bonus, can't screw them over either 
The only ship I think which will really profit from those missiles is the Cerberus, with a frigging +100% at HAC 5.
Also it has the tank to get into close range (Caracal doesn't and the T2 Caldari BC wont either) and it has the speed to get into close range (Ferox and Nighthawk don't, T2 Caldari BC wont either).
So in the end the 10% missile flight time bonus on the Cerb probably needs re-thinking when releasing the missiles, otherwise you *will* have a ship that fires its high dps / close range weapon over 30km. Okay, exactly 30km, but still its silly.
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DarK
STK Scientific
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Posted - 2006.08.04 10:20:00 -
[7]
it's only 25% more damage, I hardly think it's anything to have a party about.
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Disco Flint
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.08.04 10:26:00 -
[8]
Keep in mind, the tier 2 Caldari BC will have 7 launcher hardpoints, thats already a plain 40% increase in damage to the Caracal if it keeps the same bonuses, even more if it gets a rof bonus instead of a damage bonus.
Then on top of that another 25% with 30'ish km range... nono, I want my Drake to be a good ship, but certainly not one that 'pwnz them all' only to be hit back into stoneage by a nerfbat 2 months later.
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Nafri
Caldari
Cataclysm Enterprises
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Posted - 2006.08.04 10:29:00 -
[9]
everything above 10km with maxed skills and ship boni is not acceptable
From Dusk till Dawn
Sig removed, e-mail us if you'd like to know why. -ReverendM ([email protected]) |
Disco Flint
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.08.04 11:34:00 -
[10]
Missiles with 10km range and pie without strawberries are unacceptable.
Do I care to elaborate my one-sentence post and maybe add insight as to why and how? Nah, I'm too cool for that. Also, strawberries are ftw so its all good.
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Dralon
Yesodic Nomads Corp
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2006.08.04 11:40:00 -
[11]
Since they use more grid than normal heavy missiles, unless your running a small gisti shield setup, you'll have to ditch some bcu's for grid enhancements to fit them on a cerberus, and then theres the nighthawk with its puny grid as well. My rubbishy theory, but I doubt you'll see much a boost using these with either of those two ships.
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Rocc0
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Posted - 2006.08.04 12:20:00 -
[12]
As stated, they have 25% more damage over time, not exactly uber damage compared to the damage the caldari ships deal out now, vs. some of the other races.
secondly the caldari ships are the slowest of them all, so to get in range in a caldari cruiser vs. a minmatar cruiser for instance would be close to impossible if the range was alot lower.
And with torps having a base range of 37km and rockets around 5 km, I think 15km is fine for the assault missiles. Still, they will probably be slow as hell.
my iskies
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Agnar Koladrov
Gallente
Hurricane Corporation
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Posted - 2006.08.04 12:29:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Disco Flint
yeah, above 20km range is still quite ridiculous for a high dmg / short range weapon, but then you have to think about those ships with missiles as a secondary weapon and no range bonus, can't screw them over either
QTF.
See most minnie ships for instance. If this assault missile replaces the light missile for the assault launchers completly, a lot of setups will get cut short by this cause they use current light assault as secondary.
Therefor you should have something for the mid range and close range. but something that does more dmg then the current light missiles for mid range.
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Bring The Stabber in line with the other two versions. Add a fourth low. |
Cohkka
LoneWolf Mining
R i s e
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Posted - 2006.08.04 13:30:00 -
[14]
Originally by: DarK
it's only 25% more damage, I hardly think it's anything to have a party about.
Who cares? You'll get your javelin assault rockets and can probably kill frigs with one volley at any range between 0 and 80km...
Don't speak english, just F5, F5, F5... |
DarK
STK Scientific
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Posted - 2006.08.04 13:55:00 -
[15]
I care.
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Disco Flint
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.08.04 14:13:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Cohkka
Originally by: DarK
it's only 25% more damage, I hardly think it's anything to have a party about.
Who cares? You'll get your javelin assault rockets and can probably kill frigs with one volley at any range between 0 and 80km...
1.) Yeah, cause we know how the 'frig killer specialist' among the missile boats totally owns them frigs. Oh no wait, it doesn't, infact the Nighthawk, even with precision heavies AND another built-in precision bonus doesn't own anything. At all.
2.) T2 ammo... either it sucks or it is so damn good that it's totally unbalanced; but that's a different matter. And uhmm... I think there are some kinds of T2 turret ammo which are just a tad over the top as well. We can just hope T2 ammo and missiles get an overhaul anytime soon.
As for the 'only 25% damage boost'... well, that's still more than giving the Caracal a 6th launcher. Or another example, say you're doing 300 dps -> +25% = 375 dps, that's an additional 75 damage per second. Infact a 25% increase in damage is quite a bit, about as much as 2 (two) T2 Ballistic Control Systems give you if I recall the numbers correctly.
That's why people are so concerned about it. And because of bad memories of frig-raping Ravens.
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TalanR
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Posted - 2006.08.04 14:15:00 -
[17]
15 KM would be a nice base range for the short range missiles. You all compare them with blasters and autocannons. misles are long range weapons (at least that's what a DEV told use when we where complaining about the low DPS of the nighthawk)probable they will do less dps than a t2 425 autocannon with max skills and don't even get me started about dmg against frigs
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Vardemis
Syncore
Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.08.04 14:23:00 -
[18]
Just take a look at the optimal range and falloffs of cruiser sized autocannons and pulse lasers and blasters using ammo with the highest damage and compare that to the possible missile ranges. Also you should factor in that missiles don't have a falloff so the range should be below optimal + falloff of the close range turrets. The speed should be quite slow as well, a good way to see are the highdamage tech 2 missiles. I bet there should be more considered as well, but thats just what I was thinking about right away. I think there is a great risk, that they will become overpowered if it is not planned very carefully.
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Malena Panic
Gallente
Acme Technologies Incorporated
Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2006.08.04 14:38:00 -
[19]
Depending on the final stats, these launchers might be perfect to replace cruise missiles on Stealth bombers. Keep all the bonuses the same, just change the fitting bonus to assault launchers: you get a tiny ship with big missiles that has to get in a little closer, making it worthwhile to fit any unused high slots - AND you have the PG to do it, because the assault launchers are nearly a free fit with good skills.
Might make the SB a little more viable, versatile and fun to play.
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TalanR
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Posted - 2006.08.04 14:44:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Vardemis
a good way to see are the highdamage tech 2 missiles.
the t2 missiles and totally ****** in comparison with the T2 ammo. it's a choice of no cap recharge or doing about 10m/s and with the guns its dmg/range
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Ishan Shade
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Posted - 2006.08.04 14:54:00 -
[21]
Originally by: TalanR
Originally by: Vardemis
a good way to see are the highdamage tech 2 missiles.
the t2 missiles and totally ****** in comparison with the T2 ammo. it's a choice of no cap recharge or doing about 10m/s and with the guns its dmg/range
try hail plz and then whine.
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babylonstew
Caldari
Caldari Scouting and Intel Group
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Posted - 2006.08.04 15:06:00 -
[22]
ok, thing is, these new missiles might very well have high explossion radius, slow speed, slow explossion speed etc..., meaning, it could in fact be next to useless without fitting a web for example, then, our 'uber' caldari missile boats will need to loose 2, yes count em, 2 tanking slots right off the bat just to mhit anything, web and propulsion mod.
so we end up with maybe 3 slot tanks, high fitting reqs, so as stated above we need more fitting mods, so less bcu's, that kinda cuts down on our tank and gank a hell of lot.
so i suggest lets just see exactly what the stats are before everyone starts to complain too much.
o and btw, the simple solution to the range problem is to make flight time and or speed bonuses from the caracal, cerb and nighthawk only effect missiles maybe?
still, im reserving judgement until i actually see the damn things
Forum advice Linkage |
Admiral IceBlock
Caldari
Northern Intelligence
SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2006.08.04 15:49:00 -
[23]
Assault Missiles are suppose to be Mini-Torpedoes. 15km without skills is not bad, and if it is, then maybe, just maybe, TORPEDOES should be nerfed too so Rockets go 5km, Assault Missiles 10km and Torpedoes 15km. How is that you gits? ;)
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babylonstew
Caldari
Caldari Scouting and Intel Group
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Posted - 2006.08.04 15:51:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Admiral IceBlock
Assault Missiles are suppose to be Mini-Torpedoes. 15km without skills is not bad, and if it is, then maybe, just maybe, TORPEDOES should be nerfed too so Rockets go 5km, Assault Missiles 10km and Torpedoes 15km. How is that you gits? ;)
got no problem with that at all, torpedos do go too far currently
Forum advice Linkage |
Pinky Denmark
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Posted - 2006.08.04 16:50:00 -
[25]
we need these assault missiles to compete with other short range cruisers - and to take advantage of them we furthermore need to sacrifice an important mid-slot for an Afterburner or a MWD to be in range...
About fitting I guess it's to balance stuff due to range, but AFAIK short range has always been easier to fit (except for torpedoes which is odd as most believe cruise to be way better multi-purpose than siege launchers) so I can't see why they should be more difficult to fit...
I'd like to know if we get a new launcher or they modify it to accomodate both standards or assault missiles or only assault missiles.
Pinky
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LordZer00
Caldari
Dark Centuri Inc.
Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2006.08.04 19:06:00 -
[26]
Well... Unless they reconfigure existing ships like the Caracal, then anything less than 15 km pre-bonus range is pure suicide. The Caracal doesnt have the speed or agility to close and orbit like the Thorax, even with a Mwd, and it has a rather fragile tank to start with. If you're talking less than 10 km then theres no reason to even add the Assault Missiles into the game.
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Garramon
Gallente
Sturmgrenadier Inc
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Posted - 2006.08.04 19:44:00 -
[27]
Originally by: LordZer00
Well... Unless they reconfigure existing ships like the Caracal, then anything less than 15 km pre-bonus range is pure suicide. The Caracal doesnt have the speed or agility to close and orbit like the Thorax, even with a Mwd, and it has a rather fragile tank to start with. If you're talking less than 10 km then theres no reason to even add the Assault Missiles into the game.
I'd say there are other ships in the game besides the Caracal. Don't Caldari prefer range anyway?
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Nafri
Caldari
Cataclysm Enterprises
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Posted - 2006.08.04 19:59:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Garramon
Originally by: LordZer00
Well... Unless they reconfigure existing ships like the Caracal, then anything less than 15 km pre-bonus range is pure suicide. The Caracal doesnt have the speed or agility to close and orbit like the Thorax, even with a Mwd, and it has a rather fragile tank to start with. If you're talking less than 10 km then theres no reason to even add the Assault Missiles into the game.
I'd say there are other ships in the game besides the Caracal. Don't Caldari prefer range anyway?
and caracal fragile?
I would call the stabber fragile, but the caracal?
From Dusk till Dawn
Sig removed, e-mail us if you'd like to know why. -ReverendM ([email protected]) |
DrEiak
Amarr
IONSTAR
Vox Imperium
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Posted - 2006.08.04 20:31:00 -
[29]
I didnt read all the posts so I dont know if someone mentioned that the math is flawed on range, you can get MORE then +150% to range. The way it works is missle bombardment is 10% durration (that means it STACKS with missle velocity) so without a ships 10% range or velocity bonus (just missle skills maxed out) that is 1.50x range TIMES 1.50 velocity. this is greater then a 2.0x range its really 2.25x so that is 125% more range then before and that is WITHOUT ship bonuses. I am not sure if velocities multiply stack, or additive stack, but if they are multiplicative then peak range (with another 50% velocity multiplicative stack) is 3.375x or 237.5% range increase. That is a LOT more then 150%. So lets say the missle has a 10km base range, with all those bonuses you could get your missles to about 33.75 km (just as an example).
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.08.04 20:34:00 -
[30]
So where is the assault ammo?
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