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Dugan Lee Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2006.08.04 15:12:00 - [1] Edited by: Dugan Lee on 04/08/2006 15:18:07 In light of the current situation, I thought I'd start up a discussion about online legality regarding illegal creation of items/money. Could charges be filed against this person for corporate theft? I know I know, it wouldn't hold up, but with recent online legality changes, maybe in the near future it would. Those items have real world value. Is it stealing from CCP or any other online game if someone creates an item illegally or without permission for personal use or gain? My thoughts: It shouldn't be illegal if a player finds a way around the setup and dupes/creates items. CCP has every right to ban/kick player and delete all the stuff, but not file charges. It should be illegal for an employee (or ninja thief that breaks into the facility) to use CCP owned equipment to create items without company endorsement. Charges should stick. Note: I'm not a lawyer and I know nothing about law (excpept how not to break it) - I'm just having fun. Post away my friends. ---------------- For the whiners: New Game!
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.08.04 15:26:00 - [2] No The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
Tachy	Posted - 2006.08.04 15:27:00 - [3] Broken trust of the employer -> Fired. Instantly or at the next possible point of time, depending on local laws and the employment contract. Broken emplyoment contract -> Depends on the contract and the local laws. --==*-- Even with nougat, you can have a perfect moment.
Dugan Lee Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2006.08.04 15:30:00 - [4] Originally by: Avon No BoB delivers as usual - any of those riveting short stories in the works? ---------------- For the whiners: New Game!
Baldour Ngarr Artemis Rising	Posted - 2006.08.04 15:35:00 - [5] Everything in the game belongs to CCP. If you created something w/o their permission (bug exploits, hacking, whatever) .... they can just delete it again. Why bother taking anyone to court? ________________________________________________ "I tried strip mining, but I lost, and it's cold flying around in space naked."
Plutoinum German Cyberdome Corp Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2006.08.04 15:35:00 - [6] Edited by: Plutoinum on 04/08/2006 15:35:33 If someone breaks the EULA and causes a financial loss to CCP by it, they could try to sue him for that loss. But I think it will be quite difficult e.g. if the reason was a 'duping exploit'. On the other hand, if you do something that on purpose that's somehow like a denial-of-service attack on the servers like, if you had manipulated the client and it would somehow have the effect that the server goes down and leads to financial loss, then I think CCP has really high chances to win at court.
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.08.04 15:36:00 - [7] What do you want, an essay? Nothing has been stolen by creating something. Theft: To take without permission with the intent to permanently deprive from the rightful owner. What exactly do you think is being stolen? The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
Clytamnestra Jazz Associates R i s e	Posted - 2006.08.04 15:41:00 - [8] I'm also leery of using the words 'legal', 'illegal', and 'law' around discussions of the Terms of Service, or EULA. Breaking such an agreement isn't illegal. You won't get arrested for it. EULAs are there to make sure that you won't be able to sue the other party if they decide to ban you from their service. That's it. There's nothing criminal about the matter. Carry on. --
Dugan Lee Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2006.08.04 15:42:00 - [9] Originally by: Avon What do you want, an essay? Nothing has been stolen by creating something. Theft: To take without permission with the intent to permanently deprive from the rightful owner. What exactly do you think is being stolen? No - I was hoping for a discusion like you just gave - not 'no'. Insider trading isn't theft, yet still illegal because it creates inbalances in a balanced (somewhat) system. Couldn't those ideas apply to someone creating $xxxx worth of items? Not even related to that, the damaged cause to CCP is manhours put into the investigation and loss of customer trust (for a period). ---------------- For the whiners: New Game!
Baldour Ngarr Artemis Rising	Posted - 2006.08.04 16:10:00 - [10] Originally by: Dugan Lee What if a GM made $50,000 on ebayed items he created... would he just be fired and aloud to keep the money? Well... (1) He'd be fired. (2) CCP would, presumably, delete all the created items - ticking off all his ebay customers. (3) His ebay customers might have a case for suing him for fraud - he was selling stuff that wasn't his to sell - but it's no concern of CCP's whether that happens or not, and I don't know that they would have much chance of winning. This is why you don't buy ISK from Ebay. If it turns out that CCP cottoned on to it being macro'ed, or faked, ISKs ... you have no comeback when they suddenly remove six billion from your wallet. ________________________________________________ "I tried strip mining, but I lost, and it's cold flying around in space naked."
Achura Female	Posted - 2006.08.04 16:13:00 - [11] The only way people could turn those items into money would be by selling them and then ebaying the ISK, which is obviously a huge violation of the ToS. So the items have no real life value. In any case, taking something like this to court would be incredibly stupid and childish, not to mention that any judge would probably laugh in your face when you explain that a company in Iceland has a problem with an employee in America/Australia/wherever the hell else dealing with a game hosted in London.
Plutoinum German Cyberdome Corp Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2006.08.04 16:16:00 - [12] Originally by: Dugan Lee ... Not even related to that, the damaged cause to CCP is manhours put into the investigation and loss of customer trust (for a period). I'm not really talking about breaking a EULA - I'm talking about an employee stealing from a company. What if a GM made $50,000 on ebayed items he created... would he just be fired and aloud to keep the money? I think something like this happened in EQ on a smaller scale. Don't remember what happened. The employee has a contract and if he breaks it and causes financial damage by that, he can be sued for it. Same if you break non-disclosure agreements etc. If it causes 100.000$ damage then be sure, that the company tries to make you liable for it. ( Btw the EULA is a contract, too. The question is only, if it is worth all the costs and effort to go to court, if someone breaks it. Usually you just get a ban and that's it. If you've caused e.g. again 100.000$ damage to CCP, a ban might not be enough in their eyes. )
Baldour Ngarr Artemis Rising	Posted - 2006.08.04 16:34:00 - [13] Originally by: Plutoinum The employee has a contract and if he breaks it and causes financial damage by that, he can be sued for it. Same if you break non-disclosure agreements etc. If it causes 100.000$ damage then be sure that the company tries to make you liable for it. ( Btw the EULA is a contract, too. The question is only, if it is worth all the costs and effort to go to court, if someone breaks it and causes minor damage. Usually the player justs gets a ban and that's it. But if you've caused e.g. again 50.000$ damage to CCP, a ban might not be enough in their eyes. ) So to the original problem, they won't sue you for theft of virtual goods under criminal law, but for the financal loss under civil law. ( Hope that's the right translation. ) You're assuming that the employee and company are both American, and subject to US law. This patently is not true in CCP's case. ________________________________________________ "I tried strip mining, but I lost, and it's cold flying around in space naked."
Vanlade Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2006.08.04 16:35:00 - [14] Originally by: Dugan Lee Edited by: Dugan Lee on 04/08/2006 15:18:07 Could charges be filed against this person for corporate theft? I know I know, it wouldn't hold up, but with recent online legality changes, maybe in the near future it would. Those items have real world value. Recent online legality changes? What is that, please provide a link. Quote: The question you should ask is not who will let you, but who will stop you.
Benco97 Gallente On Ravens Wings	Posted - 2006.08.04 17:59:00 - [15] Hmm... if I could just concentrate really hard and close my eyes really tight and BAM! a brand new Ford Capri appears would Ford sue me? Snug Radio - Fart like a Pirate
Xendie Chosen Path Center for Disease Creation	Posted - 2006.08.04 18:11:00 - [16] Originally by: Dugan Lee Edited by: Dugan Lee on 04/08/2006 15:18:07 In light of the current situation, I thought I'd start up a discussion about online legality regarding illegal creation of items/money. Could charges be filed against this person for corporate theft? I know I know, it wouldn't hold up, but with recent online legality changes, maybe in the near future it would. Those items have real world value. Is it stealing from CCP or any other online game if someone creates an item illegally or without permission for personal use or gain? My thoughts: It shouldn't be illegal if a player finds a way around the setup and dupes/creates items. CCP has every right to ban/kick player and delete all the stuff, but not file charges. It should be illegal for an employee (or ninja thief that breaks into the facility) to use CCP owned equipment to create items without company endorsement. Charges should stick. Note: I'm not a lawyer and I know nothing about law (excpept how not to break it) - I'm just having fun. Post away my friends. items ingame have no real life monetary value at all since it is against the eula to sell the intellectual property of CCP. thus if you sell ingame items for real life money you forfeit the rights of your account and all the items used in it including those that you are selling. Quote: Nertzius > having fun being incompetitent?
Caleb Paine Itchy Trigger Finger Brothers	Posted - 2006.08.04 18:18:00 - [17] Yup, the second CCP ties ingame isk to RL cash they open up a hellhole they'll never recover from. ----------------- Death smiles at us all, all a man can do is smile back.
Baldour Ngarr Artemis Rising	Posted - 2006.08.04 18:23:00 - [18] Originally by: Xendie items ingame have no real life monetary value at all since it is against the eula to sell the intellectual property of CCP. True in law; false in practice. If someone offers you $200 American to buy your Dreadnought, and you sell it to him, then it DOES have real-life monetary value. The sale will get you banned should CCP find out about it, but you'll still have your two hundred bucks. ________________________________________________ "I tried strip mining, but I lost, and it's cold flying around in space naked."
Xendie Chosen Path Center for Disease Creation	Posted - 2006.08.04 18:32:00 - [19] Originally by: Baldour Ngarr Originally by: Xendie items ingame have no real life monetary value at all since it is against the eula to sell the intellectual property of CCP. True in law; false in practice. If someone offers you $200 American to buy your Dreadnought, and you sell it to him, then it DOES have real-life monetary value. The sale will get you banned should CCP find out about it, but you'll still have your two hundred bucks. and you will loose your account and the dreadnaught sold will get reposessed as will the buyers account who then will file a legal complaint against the seller who sold property that he didnt own. none of the 2 idiots will have any basis of RL legal complaint against CCP that will hold water will ever play eve again. Quote: Nertzius > having fun being incompetitent?
Baldour Ngarr Artemis Rising	Posted - 2006.08.04 18:47:00 - [20] Originally by: Xendie Originally by: Baldour Ngarr Originally by: Xendie items ingame have no real life monetary value at all since it is against the eula to sell the intellectual property of CCP. True in law; false in practice. If someone offers you $200 American to buy your Dreadnought, and you sell it to him, then it DOES have real-life monetary value. The sale will get you banned should CCP find out about it, but you'll still have your two hundred bucks. and you will loose your account and the dreadnaught sold will get reposessed as will the buyers account who then will file a legal complaint against the seller who sold property that he didnt own. none of the 2 idiots will have any basis of RL legal complaint against CCP that will hold water will ever play eve again. I know that; that's why I said "banned," remember? doesn't alter the fact that if someone's willing to pay money for something, then it has a monetary value, legal or not. ________________________________________________ "I tried strip mining, but I lost, and it's cold flying around in space naked."
Plutoinum German Cyberdome Corp Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2006.08.04 19:07:00 - [21] Edited by: Plutoinum on 04/08/2006 19:09:23 Originally by: Baldour Ngarr You're assuming that the employee and company are both American, and subject to US law. This patently is not true in CCP's case. Ok, don't know, I was not thinking of the US. I thought that it was quite common law among the western countries that you are liable for a financial loss that you have caused, especially if you broke a contract. I mean as a private person, I'm liable for every damage I cause. If I have a horrible car accident, my brakes fail and I cause a lot of damage and harm people so that it exceeds for what I'm insuranced, then I think I have to pay every penny myself, no matter if it's just 100 EUR or 10 mil EUR, although it was maybe just bad luck in my view and a tragic accident. Except it can be proved that someone else can be made liable for the failure of my brakes, like the garage that did the maintenance last. Well, ok, law and logic are two sperate things. I know.
Ragornok	Posted - 2006.08.04 19:18:00 - [22] This issue has come up before a couple years ago, in Ultima Online, where a GM was creating all sorts of stuff in order to sell on E-bay. I know he was immediately fired, but I don't remember if he was charged with anything.
Reiisha Frontier Technologies	Posted - 2006.08.04 19:22:00 - [23] Originally by: Dugan Lee Could charges be filed against this person for corporate theft? I know I know, it wouldn't hold up, but with recent online legality changes, maybe in the near future it would. Those items have real world value. Actually, they don't. This is a concept forced on the MMO industry by sue monkeys - fact is, people are dealing with items that do not exist. CCP does not condone the selling or buying of ingame items with real life money and thus cannot be held responsible for what happens if someone does this. Ingame items have no real world value, this is a fact. Don't let any laws made by people who have no clue make you ignorant. Besides this: The company has an internal policy on what can be done and what can't. In this case, CCP has a strict policy to not condone the creation of items for purposes of self enrichment, for example. They have their own punishments for this and can rectify everything in the game as they have done. If someone would have bought one of those items for real money, he would have been in breach of the EULA that he agreed to when starting the game - and if this illegally obtained item (gm created, passed on and sold for real money) would have been removed, the person in question can do nothing about it, since he was already taking part in illegal activities. Originally by: Dugan Lee Is it stealing from CCP or any other online game if someone creates an item illegally or without permission for personal use or gain? No, it is not. It is a breach of a contract, which is handled internally, such as firing the person responsible and rectifying the ingame situation by deleting the items in question. Originally by: Dugan Lee My thoughts: It shouldn't be illegal if a player finds a way around the setup and dupes/creates items. CCP has every right to ban/kick player and delete all the stuff, but not file charges. CCP is not an american crusthole filled with fat lawyers - they're not going to sue players for exploiting, but they will take other measures, such as banning the account(s) involved, following the EULA they agreed to, as i have mentioned before, or in a GM's case, following the contract he signed. Originally by: Dugan Lee It should be illegal for an employee (or ninja thief that breaks into the facility) to use CCP owned equipment to create items without company endorsement. Charges should stick. The employee is already bound by his contract. Any thief would have to answer for his immediate crime first (the breaking in), which already would weigh heavily.
Warchild Lightningblade	Posted - 2006.08.04 19:26:00 - [24] Edited by: Warchild Lightningblade on 04/08/2006 19:27:28 Originally by: Baldour Ngarr True in law; false in practice. If someone offers you $200 American to buy your Dreadnought, and you sell it to him, then it DOES have real-life monetary value. The sale will get you banned should CCP find out about it, but you'll still have your two hundred bucks. So, when your drug dealer rips you off, do you go to the police?
Malthros Zenobia Caldari Independent Navy Reserve Kimotoro Directive	Posted - 2006.08.04 19:28:00 - [25] Originally by: Dugan Lee Those items have real world value. No they don't.
Baldour Ngarr Artemis Rising	Posted - 2006.08.04 19:49:00 - [26] Originally by: Warchild Lightningblade Edited by: Warchild Lightningblade on 04/08/2006 19:27:28 Originally by: Baldour Ngarr True in law; false in practice. If someone offers you $200 American to buy your Dreadnought, and you sell it to him, then it DOES have real-life monetary value. The sale will get you banned should CCP find out about it, but you'll still have your two hundred bucks. So, when your drug dealer rips you off, do you go to the police? I used to have a cat called Willow. But can we stick to things that ARE relevant to the topic, please? ________________________________________________ "I tried strip mining, but I lost, and it's cold flying around in space naked."
Warchild Lightningblade	Posted - 2006.08.04 19:53:00 - [27] Originally by: Baldour Ngarr Originally by: Warchild Lightningblade Edited by: Warchild Lightningblade on 04/08/2006 19:27:28 Originally by: Baldour Ngarr True in law; false in practice. If someone offers you $200 American to buy your Dreadnought, and you sell it to him, then it DOES have real-life monetary value. The sale will get you banned should CCP find out about it, but you'll still have your two hundred bucks. So, when your drug dealer rips you off, do you go to the police? I used to have a cat called Willow. But can we stick to things that ARE relevant to the topic, please? Just because you, yourself place a monetary value on something, doesnt mean that the law places the same value on said item.

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