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Telaura Xi
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.08.07 17:24:00 -
[1]
Greetings All,
I am curious and I am looking for some serious answers here. After a short break from the game because of RL interference I am back. Right before I left I was beginning to come to a disturbing conclusion about EVE. It seems as if EVE is by and large nothing more than an ISK grind. Honestly when I started playing I was hoping that due to the free-form professions and open-ended nature of EVE that there wouldn't be a grind unless you enjoyed that type of thing and wanted to. Instead I am finding a lot of disturbing parallels with other MMO's.
Now I know I am pretty fresh faced in so far as EVE goes, but I have had a chance to participate in a wide spectrum of the things to do in EVE. I've done agent missions, high and low security NPC hunting, mining, and PvP. Of all of these PvP is the only activity that kinda departs from the grind mentality. Of course those grinding players for some killboard might disagree. Interestingly enough unless I choose to kill indiscriminately PvP has a distinctly reverse cash flow.
I am looking for insight. I hope I am wrong, but right now it just looks like EVE is another grinding MMO masquerading as something greater. Your thoughts?
/kowtow
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Gierling
Gallente
Celestial Fleet
Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.08.07 17:31:00 -
[2]
Well Eve didn't start out that way. Although tech II has made it so, except that you can't speed up the grind.
Your forced to pay for it on thier timescale.
If CCP releases something new and uber they can be sure that people will pay subs for 2 months required to train it and then will repeat the process down the line. Unlike WOW or other games where gamers will get access to the content relatively quickly and get bored of it.
I would say that WOW and other games now have less comparative grind for new content then EVE Does.
Really changing tech II to be uber was the deathknell but we are seeing the fallout now. Nothing in the damn game short of Titans should require any skill to be level 5, and even titans should only really require spaceship Command 5 (not advanced).
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Bahlan
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Posted - 2006.08.07 17:33:00 -
[3]
well... Farming ISK's is ofc neccesary to fuel the war machine :)
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Rod Blaine
Evolution
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.08.07 17:33:00 -
[4]
It only is as much of a grind as you let it be.
If you don't want to do utterly repetitive tasks, try trading for a living. It can be quite enjoyable.
Besides that, working with a group takes the ahrdest boredom edge of any task.
Old blog |
Ann Mari
Amarr
Coreli Corporation
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Posted - 2006.08.07 17:38:00 -
[5]
 Originally by: Telaura Xi
Greetings All,
I am curious and I am looking for some serious answers here. After a short break from the game because of RL interference I am back. Right before I left I was beginning to come to a disturbing conclusion about EVE. It seems as if EVE is by and large nothing more than an ISK grind. Honestly when I started playing I was hoping that due to the free-form professions and open-ended nature of EVE that there wouldn't be a grind unless you enjoyed that type of thing and wanted to. Instead I am finding a lot of disturbing parallels with other MMO's.
Now I know I am pretty fresh faced in so far as EVE goes, but I have had a chance to participate in a wide spectrum of the things to do in EVE. I've done agent missions, high and low security NPC hunting, mining, and PvP. Of all of these PvP is the only activity that kinda departs from the grind mentality. Of course those grinding players for some killboard might disagree. Interestingly enough unless I choose to kill indiscriminately PvP has a distinctly reverse cash flow.
I am looking for insight. I hope I am wrong, but right now it just looks like EVE is another grinding MMO masquerading as something greater. Your thoughts?
/kowtow
I think you might be confusing grinding with work. You still have to work to get something, else there wouldn't be any point. I havn't played in 3 weeks, but I'm making isk and gaining skill. I loaded up my trades at above avergae prices with 3 month time-outs, I'm logging on now and then to change those critical have to have at level 5 fitting skills. So I'm making money and making my char better with almost no time invested. I'd say that Eve apart from other games.
But make no mistake, if you want isk, you have to work for it. It you want a lot of isk, you have to work harder. If you feel that the only stuff worth having is tech 2, you're gonna work and work and work to replace the losses.
///End
"There can be no justice, if rules are absolute"
"The enemy of my enemy, is my friend"
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Dark Shikari
Caldari
Imperium Technologies
Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2006.08.07 17:42:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Rod Blaine
It only is as much of a grind as you let it be.
If you don't want to do utterly repetitive tasks, try trading for a living. It can be quite enjoyable.
QFT.
In almost all MMORPGs, you are forced to grind. In EVE, its optional.
You can run missions or mine if you want, or you can do something else.
You can camp gates all day in PvP, or you can go hunt people down.
etc
--Proud member of the [23]--
-WTS Heavy Electron II, 100mn AB II |
Kitty O'Shay
Tharsis Security
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Posted - 2006.08.07 17:49:00 -
[7]
There's only one grind in Eve:
Raising security status.
There's no real way to speed it up other than kill rats quicker, and you can't do it offline.
The upside is that if you don't lose ships, you'll have a lot more isk that when you started. 
But if you've never gone from -10 to -1.9, you can't say that you've lived a grind in Eve. (I'm still working on it.)
--
[THARS] is recruiting 1 ebil pirate. Be the one! |
Telaura Xi
Gallente
|
Posted - 2006.08.07 17:55:00 -
[8]
Hmm,
Rod and Ann, you both make interesting points with trading. I have not tried that yet, but mainly because I can see a lot of travel in a very slow ship involved. I suppose that means I could spend more time doing other things, but I am not really one to play a game completely afk. That being said anyone who has ever gone more than 10 jumps in a single game session can agree it is a bit mind numbing.
Rod, as far as ôa group takes the hardest boredom edge of any taskö I both agree and disagree with you. I have read the forums enough to understand you're an advocate of all content player driven involving player interaction. I would only qualify your suggestion with working with the right group can take the edge off. Otherwise it could easily be a painful experience. Even you must admit that sometimes for some people finding that right group may not happen right away.
Overall I am not bored and I don't mind working/grinding at all, I am just wondering if there are any activities out there I should investigate, that I missed, before I consign myself to grinding or moving on.
/kowtow
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Telaura Xi
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.08.07 18:01:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Originally by: Rod Blaine
It only is as much of a grind as you let it be.
If you don't want to do utterly repetitive tasks, try trading for a living. It can be quite enjoyable.
QFT.
In almost all MMORPGs, you are forced to grind. In EVE, its optional.
You can run missions or mine if you want, or you can do something else.
You can camp gates all day in PvP, or you can go hunt people down.
etc
Interesting, but isn't gate camping (assuming your killing everything that passes by) just a different flavor of grind? I honestly don't know since I have only ever been on the victim side of the gate camp. I must admit hunting people does have some appeal, but as Kitty O'Shay says that eventually leads to a grind to get back security status. Plus don't you have to kill without discrimination to make any ISK that way?
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Mtthias Clemi
Gallente
Celestial Horizon Corp.
Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.08.07 18:02:00 -
[10]
I find tht PVPing is the most enjoyable task in this game, when its done properly.
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Nicholai Pestot
Gallente
Havoc Inc
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Posted - 2006.08.07 18:03:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Kitty O'Shay
There's only one grind in Eve:
Raising security status.
There's no real way to speed it up other than kill rats quicker, and you can't do it offline.
The upside is that if you don't lose ships, you'll have a lot more isk that when you started.
But if you've never gone from -10 to -1.9, you can't say that you've lived a grind in Eve. (I'm still working on it.)
qft 3 weeks and counting 
________________
What you do is you store up the rage, let it fester while you gain strength, then use it to gank those weaker than you... and so the circle of life is complete |
Shamis Orzoz
SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2006.08.07 18:11:00 -
[12]
No grind, use your mind to make isk, and keep the skills going 24/7.
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Down Range
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Posted - 2006.08.07 18:11:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Gierling
Well Eve didn't start out that way. Although tech II has made it so, except that you can't speed up the grind.
Your forced to pay for it on thier timescale.
If CCP releases something new and uber they can be sure that people will pay subs for 2 months required to train it and then will repeat the process down the line. Unlike WOW or other games where gamers will get access to the content relatively quickly and get bored of it.
I would say that WOW and other games now have less comparative grind for new content then EVE Does.
Really changing tech II to be uber was the deathknell but we are seeing the fallout now. Nothing in the damn game short of Titans should require any skill to be level 5, and even titans should only really require spaceship Command 5 (not advanced).
Right. Because everyone should be flying a carrier and dread and have a titan on order.
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Dark Shikari
Caldari
Imperium Technologies
Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2006.08.07 18:11:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Telaura Xi
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Originally by: Rod Blaine
It only is as much of a grind as you let it be.
If you don't want to do utterly repetitive tasks, try trading for a living. It can be quite enjoyable.
QFT.
In almost all MMORPGs, you are forced to grind. In EVE, its optional.
You can run missions or mine if you want, or you can do something else.
You can camp gates all day in PvP, or you can go hunt people down.
etc
Interesting, but isn't gate camping (assuming your killing everything that passes by) just a different flavor of grind? I honestly don't know since I have only ever been on the victim side of the gate camp. I must admit hunting people does have some appeal, but as Kitty O'Shay says that eventually leads to a grind to get back security status. Plus don't you have to kill without discrimination to make any ISK that way?
That's what I was saying. Gatecamping is a grind, hunting is not. I was not implying neither were grinds.
--Proud member of the [23]--
-WTS Heavy Electron II, 100mn AB II |
Gierling
Gallente
Celestial Fleet
Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.08.07 18:20:00 -
[15]
Titans would obviously still be expensive.
As far as Carrier and dreads, everyone who wants to fly them should be able to.
I think that training to be a good frigate pilot should take just about as long as training to be a good dreadnaught pilot. The real problem with EVE lately has been power creep, there is no real balance to the high end content aside from cost and training time and that DOES Require grinding.
So in Eve if you Grind hard enough you can pwn. Frankly I think if they showed lvl 5 requirements the door that we would have a more balanced game out of necessity. How hard would it be to make sure that big ships have just as many drawbacks as little ship, and only people who are comfortable with those strengths and weaknesses are flying them. Flying ships because they want to and enjoy that style of play.
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Zhelavar
Gallente
CONsordium Infinate
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Posted - 2006.08.07 18:27:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Telaura Xi
Interesting, but isn't gate camping (assuming your killing everything that passes by) just a different flavor of grind?
Somewhere along the line Mythic or SOE brainwashed people into placing a neutral connotation to the word "grind."
For the rest of us, "grind" is a drudgery and dragging repetition... nothing postitive or neutral about it.
The gate campers are most likely sitting there in Vent, trading **** links and giggling about boobies, so whether one person comes through an hour or one every 5 minutes, they probably still had the time of their life. That is not a grind.
Grind is not "repetition" or "long period of time."
Grind is sucky repetition and sucky long period of time.
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Verdon Teraskun
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Posted - 2006.08.07 18:31:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Verdon Teraskun on 07/08/2006 18:32:21
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Originally by: Rod Blaine
It only is as much of a grind as you let it be.
If you don't want to do utterly repetitive tasks, try trading for a living. It can be quite enjoyable.
QFT.
In almost all MMORPGs, you are forced to grind. In EVE, its optional.
You can run missions or mine if you want, or you can do something else.
You can camp gates all day in PvP, or you can go hunt people down.
etc
Or you can sell timecodes for ISK... 
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Arkanor
Gallente
The Scope
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Posted - 2006.08.07 18:32:00 -
[18]
^ oops darn alt.
Originally by: Ghosthowl
WoW = hardcore paladins smashin dat face.
Originally by: HippoKing
I just cried, you know that? |
Vanlade
Amarr
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2006.08.07 18:34:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Telaura Xi
Hmm,
Rod and Ann, you both make interesting points with trading. I have not tried that yet, but mainly because I can see a lot of travel in a very slow ship involved. I suppose that means I could spend more time doing other things, but I am not really one to play a game completely afk. That being said anyone who has ever gone more than 10 jumps in a single game session can agree it is a bit mind numbing.
Rod, as far as ôa group takes the hardest boredom edge of any taskö I both agree and disagree with you. I have read the forums enough to understand you're an advocate of all content player driven involving player interaction. I would only qualify your suggestion with working with the right group can take the edge off. Otherwise it could easily be a painful experience. Even you must admit that sometimes for some people finding that right group may not happen right away.
Overall I am not bored and I don't mind working/grinding at all, I am just wondering if there are any activities out there I should investigate, that I missed, before I consign myself to grinding or moving on.
/kowtow
I started trading with 40k ISK, and without ever leaving the station I have now over 6mil.
This is by buying/selling, without any trade skills.
I only spend about 5 minutes online a day.
Quote:
The question you should ask is not who will let you, but who will stop you.
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Caleb Paine
Itchy Trigger Finger Brothers
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Posted - 2006.08.07 18:38:00 -
[20]
Uhm, there IS no grinding in EVE, grinding to me consists of killing mobs doing quests or in any case DO something in order to 'level', it interferes with normal gameplay. In EVE the 'leveling' is done automatically, no matter what you do. So it doesn't at all interfere with your gaming experience.
You don't have to go to a system and kill rats for 5 hours, or mine a whole day. Therefore; no effort = no grinding
-----------------
Death smiles at us all, all a man can do is smile back.
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Testicular Testes
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Posted - 2006.08.07 18:38:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Telaura Xi
I must admit hunting people does have some appeal, but as Kitty O'Shay says that eventually leads to a grind to get back security status. Plus don't you have to kill without discrimination to make any ISK that way?
1. Only low-sec (and high-sec) space actually awards security status changes for popping other players
2. Security status hits are totally irrelevant if you're not podding
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Ghargon
Apocalypse Enterprises
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Posted - 2006.08.07 18:42:00 -
[22]
in all my time in eve i have to say that pvp is the thing that makes this game what it is, mainly because you actually risk something. Ive never got the same kicks from anything else. As has been said before when you stop looking at mining, agent running and ratting as grinding and as a means to an end then it becomes alot more enjoyeable, also it can take months or even years for plans to come to fruition in eve, take a look at the goals you set yourself ingame.
And on a final note although i strongly believe pvp is what makes this game the point at which i became most emersed in this game was when i was ceo of my own corp managing 30 or so players most of them straight out of the noob corps. in eve being a ceo is very different from your average mmo guild leader. i found this was increadibly rewarding, trying to get a group of people to work together and become beter characters ingame and in the end joining an alliance and beginning to pvp as a group. It was ace. i strongly recomend that you give it a go.
I never think of the future - It comes soon enough |
Tripp Orsam
Dragonstar
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Posted - 2006.08.07 18:48:00 -
[23]
I dont think EVE is a grind at all, infact I think it does well to steer clear of this grinding gameplay that so many MMO games seem to fall for. Because of its offline skill training and the ease to make money I dont feel like I'm grinding at all. But of course if you want to fly faction ships and fit faction modules you can expect to pay big bucks for them and it takes time to earn that money, But HOW MANY ways is there to earn that money??
missions
ratting
trading
pirating
ore theft
corp thief
mining
manufacturing
blueprint research
pop npc haulers
empire industrial suicide ganking
exploration (any money to be made in this?)
please feel free to add to this list anyone.
when there are so many ways to make cash and you can switch between them you cant really call it a grind. Cash is pretty much everywhere you go in eve, you just have to 'extract' it :) Having said that I dont care how lucrative mining is I will not do it becuase it feels like a grind to me, but others dont seem to think so.
-----------------------------
EVE Online perfectly strikes all your free time wrecking your 1994 marriage. |
Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.08.07 18:50:00 -
[24]
Some people grind level 4 missions to get iskies. And they continue to do it until they can afford faction mods for their ships and run even more missions. Thats one way to play the game.
But as many others have stated, Eve is what you make it. I dont grind for iskies unless i feel i want to reach some buffer of iskies i have set for myself. Just collecting it without having a limit can probably be enjoyable too, but its just not my personal cup of tee. Lots of people make money while offline too by buying & reselling stuff on the market.
So I dont think this game has a grind really. Maybe in the beginning, but after that, insurance takes care of most of the costs of losing ships in pvp. Modules and implants are not insurable though, which is good, because otherwise we would have WoW pvp in this game.. people just running suicide attacks without caring.
---
Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Nicocat
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.08.07 18:57:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Vanlade
I started trading with 40k ISK, and without ever leaving the station I have now over 6mil.
This is by buying/selling, without any trade skills.
I only spend about 5 minutes online a day.
That's not playing EVE, that's handing CCP money for nothing.
Plus, your money making needs work. *cashes out with his now-909 mil from ratting and piracy*
----------------------------
The opinions expressed by Nico do not reflect his corporation. He's just an ass.
-Alexi
Yes, I PvP in a Hookbill. How insane am I? EVE-Mail me and tell me! |
Cadithial
|
Posted - 2006.08.07 18:59:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Telaura Xi
Hmm,
Rod and Ann, you both make interesting points with trading. I have not tried that yet, but mainly because I can see a lot of travel in a very slow ship involved. I suppose that means I could spend more time doing other things, but I am not really one to play a game completely afk. That being said anyone who has ever gone more than 10 jumps in a single game session can agree it is a bit mind numbing.
/kowtow
use insta's. That takes some of the grind out of travelling. Of course, if you're strictly in high sec, you can afk trade for the most part with autopilot.
Does the walker choose the path or the path the walker? |
Jim McGregor
Caldari
|
Posted - 2006.08.07 19:00:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Cadithial
use insta's. That takes some of the grind out of travelling. Of course, if you're strictly in high sec, you can afk trade for the most part with autopilot.
Pirates love people being afk in Jita with valuable cargo. :)
---
Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Ijaz
Viziam
|
Posted - 2006.08.07 19:04:00 -
[28]
Grinding - Any repetitive task that a player does in order to earn in game rewards whether they be cash, leveling, items or faction.
All MMOs have grind. Eve's is ISK to buy skills, ships, clones and equipment.
Eve's offline training is a double edged sword. It does not require you to be on to "level". However, you can never power level to catch up to your friends.
The real question that you need to answer is, "Do I like this style of game enough to keep playing or not?"
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Telaura Xi
Gallente
|
Posted - 2006.08.07 19:20:00 -
[29]
Well grinding is a subjective term and perhaps I was not truly clear with my definition of the term. I am trying not to place a connotation to it at all. Instead I am simply looking for alternatives to what I have done so far that in my mind qualify as repetitive tasks. All those I listed seem to be the rinse and repeat type of activity. With all of those activities it seems the goal outcome is the same, acquisition of ISK.
Perhaps grind is the improper term. Instead I should use a term such as ôISK treadmillö. From what I have seen one does one or more activities to both acquire new ships and modules and to cover losses. This process continues as your skills make more, better, and often more expensive ships and modules come within reach. My question then is at what point do your normal activities produce sufficient income so that you are no longer concerned about where the next amount of ISK to cover that next ship or module will come from? I am not looking for complete confort or lack of risk, but it would be nice to work toward not worrying about affording to replace that next loss that might be on the other side of that gate.
I appreciate the responses given thus far. This has given me much to ponder. I guess I need to keep looking for that niche for me in EVE. So far I have had some bad luck working in groups so I am kinda poisoned to that idea. Might be because of the groups and might be because of how EVE does some things. PvP groups seem very elitist when you haven't been in the game for long everyone wants you be be the sacrificial tackler. Corps in general seem to lean toward putting their newer players to work doing menial tasks while the veterans occationally dangle things like 0.0 over your head... but I digress...
/kowtow
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.08.07 19:27:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Telaura Xi
My question then is at what point do your normal activities produce sufficient income so that you are no longer concerned about where the next amount of ISK to cover that next ship or module will come from?
Depends on the ships and the modules you use. If you use tech 2 gear, you can probably still replace it with a few hours of level 4 missions. Of course if you get podded and have +3 implants, you will lose about 100 mill iskies. That will take a few days of mission running to get back.
I dont know, I dont think its a big deal myself. And if you dont want to lose implants, you can use jump clones, making your podding just a free trip home.
---
Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Kwan Lee
|
Posted - 2006.08.07 19:46:00 -
[31]
Jim makes a good point and I will add a few things to think about.
Short answer is never. CCP continues to add new ships and modules that are increasingly expensive to purchase and train for.
You can mitigate this problem by never flying something that is not easily replaceable. However, that gimps you severly if you are into CCP's end game content of low sec and 0.0.
Another option is to continue to search out for that Corp or Alliance that fits your game style. There are several well established ones that should work out for you.
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Avon
Caldari
Black Nova Corp
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.08.07 20:03:00 -
[32]
I discovered early on it is much easier to let others to do the ISK grind, and then deprive them of it at gunpoint.
That is the beauty of Eve.
The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
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Samirol
Ore Mongers
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Posted - 2006.08.07 20:10:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Avon
I discovered early on it is much easier to let others to do the ISK grind, and then deprive them of it at gunpoint.
That is the beauty of Eve.
this man speaks the truth 
sig is fixed  |
Noriath
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Posted - 2006.08.07 20:21:00 -
[34]
Eve is more of a grind then any other game, because all of your acctual progress in terms of ship and mods can be destroyed, and you have to replace it. Unless you win the Tech 2 Lottery you don't get any really easy way to make craploads of money either.
What really offsets the monotony in Eve is not the fact that you don't have to grind, it's the fact that if you do it in lowsec or 0.0 you have to do it carefully. Mining on its own is boring. Mining in a system where there is a good chance of some raiders coming in is exciting...
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Zhelavar
Gallente
CONsordium Infinate
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Posted - 2006.08.07 20:28:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Telaura Xi
Well grinding is a subjective term and perhaps I was not truly clear with my definition of the term. I am trying not to place a connotation to it at all. Instead I am simply looking for alternatives to what I have done so far that in my mind qualify as repetitive tasks. All those I listed seem to be the rinse and repeat type of activity. With all of those activities it seems the goal outcome is the same, acquisition of ISK.
Perhaps grind is the improper term. Instead I should use a term such as ôISK treadmillö.
Again you are taking a word with a negative connotation and using it as a sweeping generalization for the activity.
Think of something other than in an MMOG that you like doing. Would you call it a grind? would you call it a treadmill? No. Why? Because the words have a negative connotation to them.
If you are doing something in a leisure activity - one that you are paying a monthly fee for - and you consider it a grind or treadmill, you probably should consider stopping... immediately... and go do something that you find fun.
Somewhere along the line the makers of the grindfest treadmill games.... games not too unlike rowing for a Viking ship... convinced players that even though they were suffering through content they didn't enjoy,they were having fun.
*WHIP*****!* You are having fun! Now, ROW ...and pay me my $14,95. *WHIP*****!*
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Telaura Xi
Gallente
|
Posted - 2006.08.07 21:24:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Zhelavar
Edited by: Zhelavar on 07/08/2006 20:50:14If you are doing something in a leisure activity - one that you are paying a monthly fee for - and you consider it a grind or treadmill, you probably should consider stopping... immediately... and go do something that you find fun.
Somewhere along the line the makers of the grindfest treadmill games.... games not too unlike rowing for a Viking ship... convinced players that even though they were suffering through content they didn't enjoy,they were having fun.
*WHIP*****!* You are having fun! Now, ROW ...and pay me my $14,95. *WHIP*****!*
Edit: ***** wasn't a profane word. :(
I think we are thinking along the same lines. My concern was that I was seeing a pattern not unlike your Viking ship. I am just seeking to make sure that I am not missing something in EVE before I make a final decision about whether to play or move on. I just prefer to make an informed decision rather than jumping to conclusions.
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Anatolius
Amarr
PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2006.08.07 21:42:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Telaura Xi
Interesting, but isn't gate camping (assuming your killing everything that passes by) just a different flavor of grind? I honestly don't know since I have only ever been on the victim side of the gate camp. I must admit hunting people does have some appeal, but as Kitty O'Shay says that eventually leads to a grind to get back security status. Plus don't you have to kill without discrimination to make any ISK that way?
Conversely, football is just a different flavor of grind. Hour after hour on a field, trying to kick a ball past a large angry man into a net. It occasionally gets more exciting, occasionally you get an hour where you have people watching you do this (who occasionally get drunk and tear things up on top of it), but you're still there on the field, kicking around a little ball, over and over and over again.
Grind is a word too overused.
"If God be for us, whom can be against us?" |
Zhelavar
Gallente
CONsordium Infinate
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Posted - 2006.08.07 22:00:00 -
[38]
And on a side note, today is the 3 year anniversary of the merge between 1st Praetorian Guard and PIE Inc.
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Nanobotter Mk2
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Posted - 2006.08.07 22:07:00 -
[39]
"In almost all MMORPGs, you are forced to grind. In EVE, its optional.
You can run missions or mine if you want, or you can do something else.
You can camp gates all day in PvP, or you can go hunt people down."
Err everyone always says you can do missions, or mine or rat... then they through in that ubiquitious or so something else or etc... lol, because that was pretty much it if :)
Also you can only pvp and camp gates after putting in for the grind, you know it requires ISK to pvp :P
Alot of peopel have loads of money or ships in this game for those they don;t see the grind, for the average joe the game is mostly a ISK grind. you know how long it takes to make enough ISK to replace a fully fitted HAC? and how long that takes?
the answer is YES the grind is there and you need to grind to do the other stuff, where as alot of other games once you do all your grinding you can pvp for the msot part and never really need to grind again.
I find it an accepted part of EVE though, it is jsut how the game is.
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Luc Boye
Evolution
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.08.07 23:09:00 -
[40]
It balances out the game in the long run tho, a vet with few bills can undock in a pimped out faction battleship, and lose it few minutes later. In wow, once a guy gets his epics and trinkets, he is pretty much invincible until others get the same trinkets, which makes it for grind-oriented game.
As people said, you can chose NOT to grind, and use cheap stuff and obtain pretty good results.
--------------------------
MWD Cap Penalty? |
Benco97
Gallente
On Ravens Wings
|
Posted - 2006.08.07 23:22:00 -
[41]
In my opinion it isn't a grind at all, you don't HAVE to fly a titan.
I have fun in Frigs and rookie ships, it's great.
Snug Radio - Fart like a Pirate |
Y'laaris Brood
|
Posted - 2006.08.08 01:41:00 -
[42]
Lets face it - we actually play MMOs FOR the grind.
Sounds crazy but the grinding is the time sink... it's what makes the game last years instead of days (or hours in the case of Prey...grrrrr).
The key is whether you;
a) really notice the grind
b) have optional other things to do
c) have time to spend not grinding
I spent a while ratting a while ago and saved 500mil. I now dont feel obliged to do anything when I log in as I have enough money to do me for a while. I have the opportunity to essentially do whatever the hell I like with my time.
The best bit is - that'll probably make me money whether it's in looted modules from folk I've killed or from mission runing or whatever.
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Maximillian Pele
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Posted - 2006.08.08 05:57:00 -
[43]
Eve - interestingly enough - has two distinctive types of grind.
The first is early grind. As a noob player you are forced to grind for ISK (unless given it or you obtain it via OOG methods), faction standing and, if your bad, security standing.
Skills cost ISK. Ships cost ISK. Insurance costs ISK.
Then, depending on how long and hard you grind as a noob, you one day reach a post-noob-grind state. Skills now take days and weeks to train, more than off-setting the higher skill costs. You can do lucrative Lvl 3 & 4 missions. You may have jump clones and therefore can protect your precious implants.
Suddenly you have enough ISK that you can take risks that you'd previously avoid. Now its not grind ISK/faction standing that is holding you back, it's skill training time.
This is a liberating stage of EvE - you are free from grinding unless you choose to do it. The majority of EvE's content is available to you, and you have near total freedom.
This happy state exists until you finally decide to enter the final stage - the big end of town: Big corporations and Alliances (although many players in EvE will prefer to stay in the previous stages).
Here you encounter a new form of grind - organisational grind. There are POSes to fuel, goods to haul to and from empire, gates to camp, space to control. PvP is suddenly no longer just "lets go hunting"; its a matter of logistics, blobs, and POS lag fests.
EvE has now become work again.
And if you choose to be a leader, then EvE really does become a job. And CCP has not provided the tools to make managing a corp/alliance any easier.
Hence it doesn't surprise me that the old average character age (has anyone seen new figures) was around seven months: people moving to last stage suddenly found EvE to be work again.
So if by "Grind" people mean repetative tasks that are necessary rather than voluntary, then EvE has grind.
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Mr Xzomo
Carebear Industries
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Posted - 2006.08.08 06:09:00 -
[44]
Well if there where no grinding, then it meant that you wouldnt need to work for things.
BUT there is Loyaly Points grinding also. (Mission running) Set up a goal to work for a faction bs. Thats me plan, and i im going to do it with LP, not isk.
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Alliaanna Dalaii
Gallente
Does Not Compute
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Posted - 2006.08.08 06:29:00 -
[45]
Load of rubbish frankly. You can do what you want to do in Eve, nothing more and nothing less.
Im an Outlaw, I make all of my isk from the following and have done for the last year and 2 months 
#Reprocessing loot (Player loot) to build cruisers
#Selling the more valuable player loot
#Ransoms
#Gate tolls
#Occasional scam
#My alt accounts are in different corps, ones a director.. I wonder what I plan to do with that 
Grinding = ghey. So dont do it
Alliaanna
DNC Treasure Hunt !!
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Rick Dentill
Rage of Angels
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2006.08.08 07:26:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Kitty O'Shay
There's only one grind in Eve:
Raising security status.
There's no real way to speed it up other than kill rats quicker, and you can't do it offline.
The upside is that if you don't lose ships, you'll have a lot more isk that when you started.
But if you've never gone from -10 to -1.9, you can't say that you've lived a grind in Eve. (I'm still working on it.)
Oh I don't know, getting from 5.1 to 5.2 didn't happen over night you know.
_______
http://x-universe.kiwi.nu/page.php?id=dd |
Eilie
Minmatar
|
Posted - 2006.08.08 07:31:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Alliaanna Dalaii
Load of rubbish frankly. You can do what you want to do in Eve, nothing more and nothing less.
Im an Outlaw, I make all of my isk from the following and have done for the last year and 2 months
#Reprocessing loot (Player loot) to build cruisers
#Selling the more valuable player loot
#Ransoms
#Gate tolls
#Occasional scam
#My alt accounts are in different corps, ones a director.. I wonder what I plan to do with that
Grinding = ghey. So dont do it
Alliaanna
QFT.
EVE is only a Grind if you make it a Grind (usually the PvE carebears.)
There is no leveling grind as skills train by themselves.
There is no money grind as you can make all your money just from killing other people. There's also the fact that "ISK" is much easier to obtain than most other MMORPG currency and that you can still be very effective with only cheap t1 stuff.
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Alliaanna Dalaii
Gallente
Does Not Compute
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Posted - 2006.08.08 07:31:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Rick Dentill
Originally by: Kitty O'Shay
There's only one grind in Eve:
Raising security status.
There's no real way to speed it up other than kill rats quicker, and you can't do it offline.
The upside is that if you don't lose ships, you'll have a lot more isk that when you started.
But if you've never gone from -10 to -1.9, you can't say that you've lived a grind in Eve. (I'm still working on it.)
Oh I don't know, getting from 5.1 to 5.2 didn't happen over night you know.
Which is why I gave up on the stoopid raising sec idea 
Being forced to interact with NPC content sucks
Alliaanna
DNC Treasure Hunt !!
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Patric Murphy
The Krazed KIller Kitty Kats From Kent
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Posted - 2006.08.08 07:38:00 -
[49]
I see a lot of people in this thread saying that grinding isk is necesary for PVP. I have to say that this is totaly wrong. I have spent the last several months as a low sec pirate, and not a very sucsefull one at that. There is a comon misconseption that all pvp requewres you to have T2 ships fitted with T2 gear and all the most expensive named /faction. But the truth of the matter is the most success that i had as a solo/small gang pirate was in T1 Frigs and crusers with only t1 and the lowest named mods. i dosnt mean you will always make monney in pvp, but your losses can be replaced in minutes.
No, i cant spell,
Yes, i have an education.
Please try to keep your responses related to what I said, not the typo's. |
Mirasta
Caldari
Enigma Enterprises
Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2006.08.08 07:46:00 -
[50]
I would clasify a grind thusley:
Anything you do in game that is not fun.
This is usually for me npc hunting or mission running, im currently earing most of my money buying and selling over eve and using that for PvP.
If your being forced to do something in game thats not fun your not playing the game properly, i think there is something in game for everyone you just need to find it and then your having fun even if it is reppetetive.
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Tobin Farr
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.08.08 07:52:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Alliaanna Dalaii
Which is why I gave up on the stoopid raising sec idea
Being forced to interact with NPC content sucks
Alliaanna
Interacting with NPCs is OK, I can deal with that. But being forced to is a whole different thing.
CCP really needs to come up with something better for rising one's sec-stat.
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Telemicus Thrace
Thrace Inc
Ushra'Khan
|
Posted - 2006.08.08 08:11:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Telaura Xi
....It seems as if EVE is by and large nothing more than an ISK grind. Honestly when I started playing I was hoping that due to the free-form professions and open-ended nature of EVE that there wouldn't be a grind unless you enjoyed that type of thing and wanted to.....I've done agent missions, high and low security NPC hunting, mining, and PvP. Of all of these PvP is the only activity that kinda departs from the grind mentality....
You need to make ISK to buy stuff, no denying that. In fact the time it takes to make the isk to buy the ship is what gives the ship it's value. It's that value, that investment of time, that gets the heart pumping when you are fighting tooth and claw in it. It is what makes the victories truly sweet and the defeats bitter. If it wasn't for that I'd play Freelancer for free and just respawn an uber ship whenever I pop but that lacks meaning.
I have played fantasy games where I would go smacking rats with my mates with a world of possibilities ahead of me. Then next weekend I'd jump on to find they had been on all week and I would have to get a couple of levels to party up with them. Off I'd go picking cotton, making healing kits and purging the sewers of rats. After a few weeks of picking cotton and stamping on rats (or picking wheat and stamping on wolves) in the vain hope of being able to join a party where I wasn't on the floor screaming medic I gave up. I wasn't playing a game, I was grinding.
I don't find Eve to be a grind. I don't grind for my isk, I graft for it. There are others that grift for it but thats another story.
In Eve you can go and PvP in a 1mil Tech 1 frigate, 100mil Battleship or a 280mil HAC (including fittings). It doesn't matter, all have strengths and weaknesses. A gang of frigates can take a Battleship. If you pick your fights you will have victories. Bigger is not always better therefore you can fly what you can afford to lose and still have fun.
Some folks find mining while listening to music and chatting a relaxing way to end a hectic day. Some prefer missions. Others fleet battles. Some like the thrill of the hunt. You can get your fun any way you like. You'll need isk but there are different ways to get it. The bigger pile you have the more you can make too. If you master the frigate as a hunting ship you'll find 100mil goes a long way.
You can go for slow burning isk. Things like mining. It's constant income but you won't get rich quick in high sec. If you don't like repetative stuff avoid mining. Some people get enough excitement in real life and enjoy just being a miner in space listening to classical music.
There is also the mid rate isk. This is generally a combo of things. I used to buy minerals, build stuff and sell it at a profit. Combination of R&D, trade, bit of mining and building. Once I had the capital (week or so) I could easily pull in 30-50 mil a week with around 20mins effort a night on my part (deliver ship to market, set mineral orders, set builds). After that I could do waht I wanted and as long as I made more than I lost it was all good. It tends to tie you to one spot though. POS mining / reactions can also make good coin but it can be a lot of hauling unless you pay others to do the travelling for you.
The last category is the high risk predator isk. Pirate or Bounty hunter you make your isk looting ships you kill in PvP. If you lose your ship it can hurt but if you take down a vessel with a valuable cargo or fittings you can make more in 5 minutes than a miner makes all week. Thats not counting the days of stalking you might have before you find a rich target. My most profitable kill was 40mil which bought me a few new Jaguars. I know there are pirates out there get more but they actively target haulers full of loot. I'm not a pirate.
It's hard at first but once you have a modest pile of ISK you can make enough ISK to get by easily enough. I have never felt like Eve was a grind.
>> RECRUITING << |
Brastagi
Caldari
g guild
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Posted - 2006.08.08 08:34:00 -
[53]
So... what about whoring LP to get those faction ship?
---------
In memory of Ghossen
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Syri Dominus
J.H.E.N.R
|
Posted - 2006.08.08 08:42:00 -
[54]
Just to put a little contrast to things.
You don't find going to work everyday doing the same (similar) thing over and over again... grinding?
As previously said, while many don't, EVE has the feature that you don't need to grind if you don't feel like it (still you might do it because of the ISK), but you can always try something a little different, and some means of space exploration is coming in Kali right?
________________________________________________
Play multiplayer Connect4 with you friends in the IGB now:
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=374957 |
Riho
Mercenary Forces
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Posted - 2006.08.08 08:44:00 -
[55]
isk is not grind...
i can make loads of isk whit 2-3 missions a day if that.
i can only barely(sp) do lvl4 kill missions(deadspace ones i die too fast) and i have easy 200mil + in my wallet whitout much hard farming. i have all the ships i need to pvp and stuff to fit.
just find a way of makeing money that you enjoy allso :)
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Eilie
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.08.08 08:45:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Brastagi
So... what about whoring LP to get those faction ship?
Those are just Empire PvE Carebears who have no intention of ever using the faction ship in PvP (and they usually won't ever use a T1 Frig in PvP either.)
The Empire PvE Carebear has no idea that they are playing a PvP game and do nothing but grind rats or roids until they quit of bordem (or get suicide killed.) They usually come from WoW or other PvE games and can't understand anything other than grinding!
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Kashre
Minmatar
Imperium Technologies
Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2006.08.08 08:58:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Patric Murphy
I see a lot of people in this thread saying that grinding isk is necesary for PVP. I have to say that this is totaly wrong. I have spent the last several months as a low sec pirate, and not a very sucsefull one at that. There is a comon misconseption that all pvp requewres you to have T2 ships fitted with T2 gear and all the most expensive named /faction. But the truth of the matter is the most success that i had as a solo/small gang pirate was in T1 Frigs and crusers with only t1 and the lowest named mods. i dosnt mean you will always make monney in pvp, but your losses can be replaced in minutes.
What he said. It's not hard to PvP in T1 cruisers or even t1 frigs. You could have a good (if challenging) time PvPing in a rifter for your entire eve career. You can expect to get killed a lot, but then it would take like 20 minutes in a .5 system npcing to make enough to replace your insured rifter with t1 stuff on board.
PvP is the ONLY thing to do in this game that has any kind of dynamics to it though. I'd call anything else grinding, unless you just really like doing market assesments.
+++
"Etiquette is for the Dojo. In war there is only victory or death." - Eiji Yoshikawa |
Alaric Rurk
|
Posted - 2006.08.08 10:49:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Ann Mari
I havn't played in 3 weeks, but I'm making isk and gaining skill. I loaded up my trades at above avergae prices with 3 month time-outs, I'm logging on now and then to change those critical have to have at level 5 fitting skills. So I'm making money and making my char better with almost no time invested.
So you're paying $15 a month for what, exactly? To not play most of the time?
Or is it that you hope the game will become fun when your character is "better" and you have lots of ISK? |
Alaric Rurk
|
Posted - 2006.08.08 10:52:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Alliaanna Dalaii
Load of rubbish frankly. You can do what you want to do in Eve, nothing more and nothing less.
Im an Outlaw, I make all of my isk from the following and have done for the last year and 2 months
#Reprocessing loot (Player loot) to build cruisers
#Selling the more valuable player loot
#Ransoms
#Gate tolls
#Occasional scam
#My alt accounts are in different corps, ones a director.. I wonder what I plan to do with that
Grinding = ghey. So dont do it
Alliaanna
Uhuh. And if the vast majority of people didn't grind, you'd have nothing to prey on. You're living like a parasite off of their effort. |
Splagada
Minmatar
|
Posted - 2006.08.08 11:10:00 -
[60]
grinding works, but it really not necessary to keep the pace with other players
-
Looking for technetium delivery contracts
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Taran Blake
ANZAC ALLIANCE
|
Posted - 2006.08.08 11:15:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Maximillian Pele
Eve - interestingly enough - has two distinctive types of grind.
The first is early grind. As a noob player you are forced to grind for ISK (unless given it or you obtain it via OOG methods), faction standing and, if your bad, security standing.
Skills cost ISK. Ships cost ISK. Insurance costs ISK.
Then, depending on how long and hard you grind as a noob, you one day reach a post-noob-grind state. Skills now take days and weeks to train, more than off-setting the higher skill costs. You can do lucrative Lvl 3 & 4 missions. You may have jump clones and therefore can protect your precious implants.
Suddenly you have enough ISK that you can take risks that you'd previously avoid. Now its not grind ISK/faction standing that is holding you back, it's skill training time.
This is a liberating stage of EvE - you are free from grinding unless you choose to do it. The majority of EvE's content is available to you, and you have near total freedom.
This happy state exists until you finally decide to enter the final stage - the big end of town: Big corporations and Alliances (although many players in EvE will prefer to stay in the previous stages).
Here you encounter a new form of grind - organisational grind. There are POSes to fuel, goods to haul to and from empire, gates to camp, space to control. PvP is suddenly no longer just "lets go hunting"; its a matter of logistics, blobs, and POS lag fests.
EvE has now become work again.
And if you choose to be a leader, then EvE really does become a job. And CCP has not provided the tools to make managing a corp/alliance any easier.
Hence it doesn't surprise me that the old average character age (has anyone seen new figures) was around seven months: people moving to last stage suddenly found EvE to be work again.
So if by "Grind" people mean repetative tasks that are necessary rather than voluntary, then EvE has grind.
Quoted for the Truth indeed.
The weekly Corp/Alliance Mining op to fuel the POSes and provide minerals for the Munitions and the like can be a grind, and if you have any sort of leadership role, you know how necessary these jobs are. If you don't turn up for them, how is your membership going to react?
Ratting becomes just as much about laying up warstocks of low end named mods to fit out expendable ships or Vanilla items that you can reprocess for their mineral content as it does about providing ISK.
After a while you have enough ISK that you start buying items not because you will ever fly them in harms way, but for something to do with the cash generated by the ratting. I have a Machariel sitting in a station. I doubt I will ever my money's worth out of it, but it looks really cool and I had the cash on hand at the time...
A high end Hauler spawn is welcome, not so much for the amount of ISK it gives, so much as it produces a boatload of pre-refined minerals that you wont have to sit in a belt tanking some Rat spawn for hours on end while your miners hoover up another defenceless belt while your scouts sit out watching the approaches in other systems providing warning of the inevitable hostile incursions.
It may be a grind, but it is a necessary one.
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Telaura Xi
Gallente
|
Posted - 2006.08.08 13:02:00 -
[62]
Greetings All,
Once again I want to say I appreciate the responses, they have given me much to consider. It is interesting that many of the responses can be summed up as yes there is a grind, but it is a means to an end. The end varies, but seems to be PvP followed by for the corp/alliance. I find Maximillian Pele's post most interesting in the stages he describes. I think I am looking for that middle stage and to just stay there.
I am curious, Alliaanna and others from what I might call the dark side suggest that more than enough funding can be made from pirate activity. My question would still be are you attacking indiscriminately? Is there some criteria you go by, or is the policy if it moves kill it?
/kowtow
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Zhelavar
Gallente
CONsordium Infinate
|
Posted - 2006.08.08 13:14:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Syri Dominus
Just to put a little contrast to things.
You don't find going to work everyday doing the same (similar) thing over and over again... grinding?
If I didn't enjoy it, I would. I love my job, though. :)
But that is actually besides the point because you are talking about a job. This is your liesure activity... and you are paying a monthly fee to enjoy it. If at any point it becomes a grind, you should probably go do something else.
Why pay someone to be able to do something you don't enjoy, especially in light of the work example you mentioned where they are paying you to do something you might not enjoy. ;)
I'm ancient. I'm too old to waste my time with grinds. :D That's why I play EVE, UO, Puzzle Pirates and other games where I pay to be entertained and have fun, not to grind and trudge treadmills. |
Alliaanna Dalaii
Gallente
Does Not Compute
|
Posted - 2006.08.08 13:47:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Telaura Xi
I am curious, Alliaanna and others from what I might call the dark side suggest that more than enough funding can be made from pirate activity. My question would still be are you attacking indiscriminately? Is there some criteria you go by, or is the policy if it moves kill it?
If it moved it dies Or I give it a good go, Then erupt in a ball of flames after realising the error of my decisions to attack
But no, I'm a solo pirate and currently only hold a nap with the group of corps that held LSC in syndicate. I'm no longer living there but will honour the nap for the time being as they gave me a place to take refuge for a couple of months and im gratefull. Other than that the only folk I will leave alone are people I like, and they generally know who they are
Alliaanna
DNC Treasure Hunt !!
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Humble Voh
|
Posted - 2006.08.08 15:12:00 -
[65]
I really don't like to argue, but what on earth wouldn't the OP consider a grind?
For me a grind is simply something you HAVE to do to progress. In simpler MMOs, you need xp to progress. It's that simple. In Eve you have so many options I don't think there is a grind.
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