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Mahavy Seth Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2006.08.07 21:36:00 - [1] Ok let start saying that in 5 months I consider my self yet a total noob. Anyway I am at less than 1 month from Zealot with T2 guns. Now the point is: Vagabond is clearly more fast and agile than Zealot. Vagabond can fit much more weapons so deal much more damage. Vagabond can tank better cause it use no cap for fire. Vagabond have even drone bay, Zealot no. Vagabond have more Medium slot so it can webifier, scambler and may be disrupt turrets. Basing on the famous amarr rant 56 page topic, laser have rpoblems cause they are EM based. So, why the zealot cost 170 millions and have the SAME skill requirement of the vagabond? I already understand that CCP is totally unable to make this game balanced and different at the same time, but, some of you have some advice for me when i will get the Zealot? Avoid to say: change race.
Shamis Orzoz SniggWaffe	Posted - 2006.08.07 21:41:00 - [2] Just keep training. Amarr are due for a boost. Switching races to get the latest overpowered ships is a good way to waste skillpoints, I've seen nearly all races go from best to worst and back again since started playing. A zealot with a big tank and a nice webber can kill a vaga, its just not easy. Rent a friend in a hugin and you'll own a vaga though.
Stamm Amarr GALAXIAN	Posted - 2006.08.07 21:45:00 - [3] I can't explain the price. Only thing I can think of is that there's players trained up to use it that aren't trained for the other HACs and don't want to train up a new weapon system, cruiser 5 in another race, which keeps people buying them. Either that or there's something funny with the BPOs. Perhaps the people that have them spend most of their time making them for corp/alliance members, and the few that do make it to the market have a high demand.
Jorund Bork Freelance Unincorporated Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2006.08.07 21:51:00 - [4] It could be worse, you could be training for a Deimos
Zhaine Imperial Shipment	Posted - 2006.08.07 21:52:00 - [5] Originally by: Mahavy Seth I already understand that CCP is totally unable to make this game balanced and different at the same time WHY must people include such stupid troll statements in their posts. It's just not true, or necessary, or helpful, or constructive. Yes the Vaga is good atm, does that make the Zealot bad? Nope. Does that mean it's gonna be this way forever, or even a long time? Nope. Does that make the Zealot overpriced? Nope (other things do :D). This is a pretty thinly disguised rant that serves little purpose. If you really hate it this much then the same facts were there to see months ago, so why go this far to training for a ship just to complain? - - - - - - - - - - Quote: I don't even want a ship, ships are for carebears. Give me a fish bowl for my head (to keep space out) and smear me with lard, then armed with a toasting fork-
Mahavy Seth Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2006.08.07 22:01:00 - [6] Originally by: Zhaine Originally by: Mahavy Seth I already understand that CCP is totally unable to make this game balanced and different at the same time WHY must people include such stupid troll statements in their posts. It's just not true, or necessary, or helpful, or constructive. Yes the Vaga is good atm, does that make the Zealot bad? Nope. Does that mean it's gonna be this way forever, or even a long time? Nope. Does that make the Zealot overpriced? Nope (other things do :D). This is a pretty thinly disguised rant that serves little purpose. If you really hate it this much then the same facts were there to see months ago, so why go this far to training for a ship just to complain? You totally mistunderstood my topic. Anyway, the fact that, as Shamiz sayed, all races get continuously boosts and nerfs mean that CCP is unable to find a final solution to balance. What I want was simply advices on piloting a zealot. The FACT that CCP have a lack in fantasy department is just a little consideration I have inserted here (another example is the Abaddon). Anyway the main reason I am training amarr is because I like amarr, nothing regarding power and other concepts like this. Anyway I WANT to say that something must be done. Damn just look at the Sensors stregnth of vaga... even in minmatar bad department vaga is strong. And just for say anything, in my opinion all this continuously nerf and boost of all RACES is useful to CCP for push players to develop as many skills as they can, so bring them to stay more in game. That a troll statements? I do not think so.
Electric Cucumber Amarr Beagle Corp	Posted - 2006.08.07 22:10:00 - [7] Originally by: Mahavy Seth Basing on the famous amarr rant 56 page topic, laser have rpoblems cause they are EM based. Don't read those thrads, whiners lead to nothing. lasers are fine, just try heavy pulse 2 with t2 cristals and heatsinks on a zealot and you'll see what I mean.
Estan Drake	Posted - 2006.08.07 22:18:00 - [8] People always cite the fact that minmat weapons don't use cap = uber tank. Before you make that mistake -> actually look at the capacitor and cap recharge rate on minmatar ships. Zealot Cap= 1200 Recharge 268 sec Vagabond cap= 850 Recharge 268 sec Though I digress. I agree with you man, why do any heavy assault ships cost so damn much? As for skill requirements... all HACs have same skills reqs don't they? You just have to play to the Zealots strengths which are different from the Vaga's and minimize your weaknesses.
Stamm Amarr GALAXIAN	Posted - 2006.08.07 22:19:00 - [9] Originally by: Electric Cucumber Originally by: Mahavy Seth Basing on the famous amarr rant 56 page topic, laser have rpoblems cause they are EM based. Don't read those thrads, whiners lead to nothing. lasers are fine, just try heavy pulse 2 with t2 cristals and heatsinks on a zealot and you'll see what I mean. Lasers aren't fine. However, the Zealot is a very good ship. Amarr aren't toothless, I don't want to fly any other race. I like zipping around in my Zealot. Sure the Vagabond outclasses it, but that's not because the Zealot sucks. Still, there are problems with Amarr, but that doesn't mean sit about crying about them all day. The devs will eventually address Amarr, in the meantime either just get on and play the game, but feel free to enter the discussions on what to do to improve things. But as the original poster asked, why are Zealot prices so high? It's not the best HAC out there, I see way more Vagabonds and Gallente HACs than I do Zealots, so why is it coming out for 170mil?
Weirda Minmatar Queens of the Stone Age Chimaera Pact	Posted - 2006.08.07 22:21:00 - [10] Originally by: Electric Cucumber Originally by: Mahavy Seth Basing on the famous amarr rant 56 page topic, laser have rpoblems cause they are EM based. Don't read those thrads, whiners lead to nothing. lasers are fine, just try heavy pulse 2 with t2 cristals and heatsinks on a zealot and you'll see what I mean. you can beat vagabond in a zealot - even if you just have t1 guns... and even if they are armor tanking (would think that you would be more worried about a muninn in a zealot tbh). unless of course the vagabond runs. a solo vagabond will not kill your zealot. and price is not a reflection of what is good/bad always. weirda can't believe that zealot prices are so high tbh, but think that it have to do with supply. am pretty sure that there is at least one former PIE member that had bpo for zealot that no longer play... and also know that some alliance DO have zealot bpo that they almost ONLY sell w/in alliance. but lower skill reqs? lower price? dumb statement about balance? those are wrong statements. __ Weirda Join QOTSA Now
Deja Thoris Contraband Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.08.07 22:30:00 - [11] Don't listen to the whiners. The zealot is still more than adequate as a ship. Vaga is just flavour of the month.
Mahavy Seth Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2006.08.07 22:38:00 - [12] Originally by: Weirda Edited by: Weirda on 07/08/2006 22:25:15 Originally by: Electric Cucumber Originally by: Mahavy Seth Basing on the famous amarr rant 56 page topic, laser have rpoblems cause they are EM based. Don't read those thrads, whiners lead to nothing. lasers are fine, just try heavy pulse 2 with t2 cristals and heatsinks on a zealot and you'll see what I mean. you can beat vagabond in a zealot - even if you just have t1 guns... and even if they are armor tanking (would think that you would be more worried about a muninn in a zealot tbh). unless of course the vagabond runs. a solo vagabond will not kill your zealot. and price is not a reflection of what is good/bad always. weirda can't believe that zealot prices are so high tbh, but think that it have to do with supply. am pretty sure that there is at least one former PIE member that had bpo for zealot that no longer play... and also know that some alliance DO have zealot bpo that they almost ONLY sell w/in alliance. but lower skill reqs? lower price? dumb statement about balance? those are wrong statements. @Stamm Zealot is FAR from outclassed by a Vagabond... with the exception of hit and run, which is Vaga's forte, and not Zealot. Zealot does more dmg (even after standard EANM 2 resist) then Vagabond using all but Hail, which of course a vaga pilot would be insane to use. It also tanks like a mother. And it is also the 2nd fastest HAC, though Weirda personally wouldn't put a MWD on it. Just consider you can fit a Turret disruptor on a vaga... Zealot no, cause you need a webber, scrambler, AB as base equipmewnt. think you must fit a smart bomb and not a NOS on a zealot otherwise you will be panilzed by vaga drones during ALL THE COMBAT, excpet if you lose time to miss them with you guns. Vaga tank you at a point thatg you do only 5% of damage on EM, if not less. You talk about balance like dumb thing. Zealot (and GENERALLY amarr) gank and tank only: no drones, no med slots, no special features... just fire and tank. Anyway, in my noobish experience, I doubt a Zealot with 4 turrets deal more damage than a 5 turrets + 1 missile vagabond. And how a PIE member sayed, I do not remember his name now, we have lost even the our emperor! <--- that the most painful thing
Toshiro Khan Gallente	Posted - 2006.08.07 22:52:00 - [13] Originally by: Mahavy Seth Just consider you can fit a Turret disruptor on a vaga... Zealot no, cause you need a webber, scrambler, AB as base equipmewnt. think you must fit a smart bomb and not a NOS on a zealot otherwise you will be panilzed by vaga drones during ALL THE COMBAT, excpet if you lose time to miss them with you guns. Vaga tank you at a point thatg you do only 5% of damage on EM, if not less. you do realise that, you don't need an AB on a zealot.. so you can fit a tracking disruptor on a zealot.. also the normal tank fo a vaga is a shield tank.. (which is normally a dual large extender set up..) very few vaga set ups include a webber and a tracking disrupter.. just a 20km warp disrupter.
Vicious Phoenix	Posted - 2006.08.07 22:55:00 - [14] Originally by: Mahavy Seth Anyway, in my noobish experience, I doubt a Zealot with 4 turrets deal more damage than a 5 turrets + 1 missile vagabond. The VAST majority of vagas don't fit a launcher, so you can ignore that in your DPS calculations. Also, a vaga will not out-damage a zealot, the usual vaga setup involves Barrage ammo, which is far from uber damage. As far as drones go, the vaga has no drones bonuses, and even if they are T2, 5 lights aren't going to make a massive difference to a well tanked Zealot. (Don't get me wrong though, they still make a difference, just not a huge one)
Frools Killson Corp	Posted - 2006.08.07 23:46:00 - [15] Originally by: Weirda you can beat vagabond in a zealot - even if you just have t1 guns... and even if they are armor tanking (would think that you would be more worried about a muninn in a zealot tbh). unless of course the vagabond runs. a solo vagabond will not kill your zealot. truth, only problem you'll have with a solo vaga is getting enough scramble points on him
Ath Amon	Posted - 2006.08.07 23:48:00 - [16] Edited by: Ath Amon on 07/08/2006 23:48:33 Originally by: Mahavy Seth Ok let start saying that in 5 months I consider my self yet a total noob. Anyway I am at less than 1 month from Zealot with T2 guns. Now the point is: Vagabond is clearly more fast and agile than Zealot. yup true, speed is the strong point of vaga Originally by: Mahavy Seth Vagabond can fit much more weapons so deal much more damage. not really, not always more weapons = more damage... we have to consider that AC have less dps than lasers, generally it is something like AC + 1 ship damage bonus = pulse (actually similar as dps is not exatly the same) both ship have 2 damage bonus so in the end the 2 ships, with similar config and ammo do more or less the same damage even with the Zealot is using actually 2 less weapons. the main difference is made by config as most vaga use passive shield/speed to tank and put stabs... ehm damage mods in the lows, while zealots tends to build a bit more sturdy tank even if they have the option to put dmg mods and decent tank too. Originally by: Mahavy Seth Vagabond can tank better cause it use no cap for fire. nope, zealot is a better tank than the vaga expecially if you consider that generally vaga shield (passive) shield tank... also is true that vaga can active armor tank, but then you have to consider that zealot have 2 more lows and way better cap and consider that an armor tanked vaga will not be able to use damage mods. the problem with zealot vs vaga is mostly due to res, if the vaga armor tank (agan not very common) its base res will make it veeery hard to kill for lasers, but that's another sotry and it doesn't show the real efficency of a tank. Originally by: Mahavy Seth Vagabond have even drone bay, Zealot no. but again zealot do more "base" damage, drones are nice (i really like them) but if they pop you lose dps... Originally by: Mahavy Seth Vagabond have more Medium slot so it can webifier, scambler and may be disrupt turrets. generally an extender on a vaga is not a bad idea and most vaga configs use just 3 mids for utility mods (mwd/web/scrambler) if you are going to armor tank (again quite rare) then you have 1 more mid but you loose a lot of dps, again you end with vaga 1 more mid vs zealot 2 more lows. Originally by: Mahavy Seth Basing on the famous amarr rant 56 page topic, laser have rpoblems cause they are EM based. So, why the zealot cost 170 millions and have the SAME skill requirement of the vagabond? I already understand that CCP is totally unable to make this game balanced and different at the same time, but, some of you have some advice for me when i will get the Zealot? Avoid to say: change race. in the end i will not say that Vaga totally outclass a Zealot... Vaga is more versatile and rely mostly on speed to tank (and to flee if necessary), but generally is a very fragile ship. the Zealot instead is a very "focused" one, few high but decent damage and a lot of lows to build an exceptionally strong tank or a tank/damage setup.
Wulfgard eXceed Inc. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.08.07 23:57:00 - [17] I fly both the Vagabond and the Zealot, both ship have a niche. The Vagabond is an excellent hit and run type of ship. Most Vagabonds aren't made to tank, often a dual shield and nanos. If a zealot web+scram a Vaga, it will kill it easy. Zealot is a lot tougher than most HACs (except the gall drone pwnmobile), you can almost take any BS with it. Although I wish lasers could do explo dmg:/ The Vagabond is like a cruiser size ceptor but that doesnt make it the best all around in his class.
Emperor D'Hoffryn Low Grade Ore HUZZAH FEDERATION	Posted - 2006.08.07 23:59:00 - [18] As said above, with typical fittings, solo zealot vs solo vaga = tie. The vaga likely wont kill the zealot, and the zealot wont be able to hold the vaga. Still, zealot has drawbacks as well. However, if the vaga knew he was fitting a zealot....tracking disruptor is all he needs. If the zealot knew he was fitting a vaga....well, doesnt really matter. 1 web wont slow down a mwd vaga enough without an AB on the zealot, you could do 2 webs...but vaga doesnt need to come within 10km, you could do mwd to catch him, but that nerfs your tank....Best bet is web, scram, then tracking disruptor of your own, and hope the vaga gets bored and leaves. might as well not fit a 20km scram anyway, that vaga has more than 1 stab almost garunteed. so, IMHO, with general setups zealot v vaga = tie with knowledge beforehand, vaga every time. Dont really see a way for a zealot to take the vaga unless pilot error.... Originally by: Tuxford Yes we don't play on our main accounts simply because you would lose all respect for us
Isonkon Serikain Gallente Band of Builders Inc. Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.08.08 00:07:00 - [19] I recently demothballed my zealot setups and have had a great deal of success... Really its a fine fine cruiser... Pity the fool
korrey Corinth Associates	Posted - 2006.08.08 03:18:00 - [20] I still swear 50 more PG would make it killer and up to par with other Hac's. If you cant beat something, arrange to have it beaten. -Corinth Associates
turnschuh	Posted - 2006.08.08 04:23:00 - [21] the topic is pointless since the vaga has one big disadvantage, it can not tank. it dies pretty fast but can dish out nice damage. there is NO WAY a vaga can tank like a zealot can, so can I whine now that vaga needs a 5th med slot because it cannot tank?
Kirov VIII	Posted - 2006.08.08 11:20:00 - [22] Hmm, I have never pilot a Vagabond but some NPC (Gursistas, Angel, Serpentis can tank my zealot without problem ...) Heavy pulse t2, heat sink t2, conflagration M but I canno't break the tank ... It's one of the best amarr ship and a easy npc isn't killable :( Yes amarr need change and vagabond and minmatar in general are overpowered ... Minmatar = Speed, agility, good tank and both tank (shield-armor), gun = 0 cap, gun = very good damage and minmatar have a bad rof but a lot of ship have 5% rof per lvl. Amarr = good tank and good again some npc (Blood, Sansha), gun rof and the rest are bad things ... speed, agility, bad type of damage, damage per hit, consumption of guns, ...
Dog Food	Posted - 2006.08.08 11:28:00 - [23] Originally by: Kirov VIII Hmm, I have never pilot a Vagabond but some NPC (Gursistas, Angel, Serpentis can tank my zealot without problem ...) Heavy pulse t2, heat sink t2, conflagration M but I canno't break the tank ... It's one of the best amarr ship and a easy npc isn't killable :( Yes amarr need change and vagabond and minmatar in general are overpowered ... Minmatar = Speed, agility, good tank and both tank (shield-armor), gun = 0 cap, gun = very good damage and minmatar have a bad rof but a lot of ship have 5% rof per lvl. Amarr = good tank and good again some npc (Blood, Sansha), gun rof and the rest are bad things ... speed, agility, bad type of damage, damage per hit, consumption of guns, ... Your Amarr you will say Minmatar is overpowered :P I agree Amarr needs a boost. But in answer you your OP question, stick with the zealot unless you wanna go minmatar. Zealot is an excellent ship. Nice damage, and a step closer to an Absolution. You go minmatar, suddenly theres so many more skills to train, its not just guns and armor like the zealot.
Ciphero	Posted - 2006.08.08 11:47:00 - [24] So, because a Zealot (with its EM/Therm lasers) has trouble beating a Vaga (with its silly 92.5% or so base EM resistance), it's a bad ship? Take any ship with a more standard EM/Therm resistance setup and see how well you tank a Zealot. Once you're in your pod, tell me how bad the Zealot is.
Deathbarrage	Posted - 2006.08.08 11:52:00 - [25] Well in my experience vagabond is a better pvp ship cuz of the speed etc but if we're talking 1v1 zealot vs vaga I fly a zealot can't fly a vagabond but i've never lost 1v1 vs a vagabond :/
Testy Mctest	Posted - 2006.08.08 12:06:00 - [26] Edited by: Testy Mctest on 08/08/2006 12:06:19 Originally by: Mahavy Seth Vagabond is clearly more fast and agile than Zealot. Vagabond can fit much more weapons so deal much more damage. Vagabond can tank better cause it use no cap for fire. Vagabond have even drone bay, Zealot no. Vagabond have more Medium slot so it can webifier, scambler and may be disrupt turrets. A lot of that is untrue. A lot of is is borne of people whining about stuff too much. The difference between whining and seeking balance is how many half truths you use :P Anyway: "Vagabond is clearly more fast and agile than Zealot." True. "Vagabond can fit much more weapons so deal much more damage." Totally untrue. Zealots wtfpwn Vagabonds in damage terms. Also, Zealots get 3 more lowslots, which means more damage should they choose. "Vagabond can tank better cause it use no cap for fire." Vagabonds can not tank. They're fast, and can mitigate some of the damage they take by using small boosters (with their tiny cap) or extenders for a good passive recharge. They also have the option to armour tank, barely. If you catch a Vagabond with low transversal, get one webbed, etc, it will die. Very quickly. Zealots on the other hand, can have a mean tank. Or they can have a very effective tank (5 slot) and use a couple of damage mods. "Vagabond have even drone bay, Zealot no." To be honest, it's a very minor point. Vagabonds rarely deploy their drones. "Vagabond have more Medium slot so it can webifier, scambler and may be disrupt turrets." Vagabonds have 800 base cap. Zealots have 1200. Vagabond's cap cannot support the things you might normally fit in midslots. Don't get confused. Any good Amarr pilot with a lot of Zealot experience will tell you that it's a fantastic ship. The Vagabond is a very niche ship. Nothing else in eve is like it. Trying to compare anything to it is like comparing Apples to Motorbikes. Both of these ships are hugely effective in their own way. Scrapheap Challenge Forums
DarkElf Caldari Arcana Imperii Ltd.	Posted - 2006.08.08 12:12:00 - [27] Originally by: Mahavy Seth Vagabond can fit much more weapons so deal much more damage. It was my undertstanding that a zealot can dish our more dps than a vaga. vaga's advantages come with it being a ***** to catch. May be wrong though DE
Tassi Infinitus Odium	Posted - 2006.08.08 12:15:00 - [28] t2 fitted geddon > zealot in price AND useability.
Montero Black Omega Security E.R.A	Posted - 2006.08.08 12:19:00 - [29] Originally by: Kirov VIII Yes amarr need change and vagabond and minmatar in general are overpowered ... Thanks i needed a laugh. --------- Scrapheap Challenge
Ath Amon	Posted - 2006.08.08 14:11:00 - [30] Originally by: Kirov VIII Hmm, I have never pilot a Vagabond Yes amarr need change and vagabond and minmatar in general are overpowered ... Minmatar = Speed, agility, good tank and both tank (shield-armor), gun = 0 cap, gun = very good damage and minmatar have a bad rof but a lot of ship have 5% rof per lvl. lol ehm don't want to flame but really you have to try one before to say that, all you say is actually not accurate/true amarr have generally better tank than minnies, if then you speak about the vaga then, as was alredy said many times, is a very fragile ship with very poor tank. guns = very good damage? i really wish but proj are actually the weapon with lowest raw dps, ok maybe is superior to smartbombs... lasers and hybrids do way more raw damage than proj, to the point that you need a ship dmg mod to be on par with them. and the fact minnie can tank with shield or armor is not that good as it generally end in ships with poor tank both or with ships that can fit a decent armor tank or ships who can fit a so and so shield tank. this mostly mean that you have to train both armor and shield skills just to be able to fly all minnie ships in a decent way. so plz, before to say that minnie are overpowered look a bit at ships and dmg graphs or try to fly them
DeadDuck Amarr DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.08.08 14:28:00 - [31] Edited by: DeadDuck on 08/08/2006 14:30:25 I fly Zealots for sometime now and tbh I think the ship is great. I alsow think that HAC level 4 and HAC level 5 in that precise ship can make all the diference in the world those 5% extra damage that you can grab with HAC level 5, provide the margin to grow your tank significantly without loosing damage output. Anyway I will know it after my vacations
Nebuli Caldari Art of War	Posted - 2006.08.08 16:09:00 - [32] Originally by: Tassi t2 fitted geddon > zealot in price AND useability. t2 fitted domi > ishtar t2 fitted raven > cerb t2 fitted blasterthron > diemos etc, etc, etc, in price AND useability. What exactly was your point? CEO - Art of War
Crellion Art of War	Posted - 2006.08.08 16:24:00 - [33] Originally by: Nebuli Originally by: Tassi t2 fitted geddon > zealot in price AND useability. t2 fitted domi > ishtar t2 fitted raven > cerb t2 fitted blasterthron > diemos etc, etc, etc, in price AND useability. What exactly was your point? Perhaps that t2fittedTempest < Vagabond Neb Generally I can think of things I like about my Zealot that a Vaga cant do but if you are talking about Zealot v Vaga 1v1 it can go either way. The Vaga may win or the Vaga may warp out. Everything is possible.
Nebuli Caldari Art of War	Posted - 2006.08.08 16:26:00 - [34] Originally by: Crellion Originally by: Nebuli Originally by: Tassi t2 fitted geddon > zealot in price AND useability. t2 fitted domi > ishtar t2 fitted raven > cerb t2 fitted blasterthron > diemos etc, etc, etc, in price AND useability. What exactly was your point? Perhaps that t2fittedTempest < Vagabond Neb Generally I can think of things I like about my Zealot that a Vaga cant do but if you are talking about Zealot v Vaga 1v1 it can go either way. The Vaga may win or the Vaga may warp out. Everything is possible. Sorry but an autopest > vaga in the same way geddon > zealot CEO - Art of War
Crellion Art of War	Posted - 2006.08.08 16:32:00 - [35] Originally by: Nebuli Originally by: Crellion Originally by: Nebuli Originally by: Tassi t2 fitted geddon > zealot in price AND useability. t2 fitted domi > ishtar t2 fitted raven > cerb t2 fitted blasterthron > diemos etc, etc, etc, in price AND useability. What exactly was your point? Perhaps that t2fittedTempest < Vagabond Neb Generally I can think of things I like about my Zealot that a Vaga cant do but if you are talking about Zealot v Vaga 1v1 it can go either way. The Vaga may win or the Vaga may warp out. Everything is possible. Sorry but an autopest > vaga in the same way geddon > zealot I cant agree in 0.0 there are 111 things you can do with a Vaga that you cant do with an Autopest (mainly survive solo) whereas zelots/cerbs/deimos/ishkur etc are only fractionally more survivable than their BS counterparts. There is a substantive difference there IMO. Hit and run is done by ceptors and by Vagas and that it rly. Hyperion might prove to be the BS equivalent which will make things interesting perhaps (one can only hope)
Nebuli Caldari Art of War	Posted - 2006.08.08 16:36:00 - [36] Originally by: Crellion Originally by: Nebuli Originally by: Crellion Originally by: Nebuli Originally by: Tassi t2 fitted geddon > zealot in price AND useability. t2 fitted domi > ishtar t2 fitted raven > cerb t2 fitted blasterthron > diemos etc, etc, etc, in price AND useability. What exactly was your point? Perhaps that t2fittedTempest < Vagabond Neb Generally I can think of things I like about my Zealot that a Vaga cant do but if you are talking about Zealot v Vaga 1v1 it can go either way. The Vaga may win or the Vaga may warp out. Everything is possible. Sorry but an autopest > vaga in the same way geddon > zealot I cant agree in 0.0 there are 111 things you can do with a Vaga that you cant do with an Autopest (mainly survive solo) whereas zelots/cerbs/deimos/ishkur etc are only fractionally more survivable than their BS counterparts. There is a substantive difference there IMO. Hit and run is done by ceptors and by Vagas and that it rly. Hyperion might prove to be the BS equivalent which will make things interesting perhaps (one can only hope) Thats it, go polish my mega CEO - Art of War
Ath Amon	Posted - 2006.08.08 16:42:00 - [37] Originally by: Crellion Perhaps that t2fittedTempest < Vagabond Neb Generally I can think of things I like about my Zealot that a Vaga cant do but if you are talking about Zealot v Vaga 1v1 it can go either way. The Vaga may win or the Vaga may warp out. Everything is possible. quite an apple vs orange comparsion imo, a tempest is not a big vaga... vaga rely on speed and passive/dmg/stabs () setups the tempest is nothing like that, is a more standard (minnie) dps ship, an evolution of the rupture if you want and not of stabber/vaga line. also as you can see this is not a thing minnie pilots are very happy as many wish to have a BS version of the stabber/vaga.
Gardiner Minmatar Silver Star Federation	Posted - 2006.08.08 18:26:00 - [38] Everyone says the Vagabond is 2 good, but they fail to see there races own advatages within the game. Minmatar have for a long time not had anything special. then ccp give us the Vagabond. and u all cry because it's a cool ship. look at the bigger picture, and u will see that all races have a balance. there is always going to be a superior race in each ship class. a master of some art. all who complain either cant create a working setup with there spec'd race... or there fav ship class is being spanked by another race. all i say is that you people who complain about other races... just becuse someone has an advantage over u with a better designed ship than u dont give u the right to cry for a nerf. use ur imagination and u can overcome most ships. it's not the ship but the setup that counts most times.
Fredbob Draconis Navitas Aeterna Pure.	Posted - 2006.08.08 19:08:00 - [39] Originally by: Crellion ...but if you are talking about Zealot v Vaga 1v1 it can go either way. The Vaga may win or the Vaga may warp out. Everything is possible. lol ___________ ~Fredbob~
Wizie Minmatar Euphoria Released Euphoria Unleashed	Posted - 2006.08.08 19:14:00 - [40] An experienced pilot fitted properly should NEVER lose to a Vagabond. On the other hand, any Vaga pilot who dies to a Zealot made some big mistakes. In reality, this fight if not pre-planned as to the death, will end in a stalemate. The Zealot will force the Vaga to run away almost every time. A Vaga is an awesome solo ship for ganking npcers and noobs with bad skills and purely npcer setups.. its also the easiest ship to avoid getting ganked by large gangs seeking you out. Something that no other hac can do. However, the same Vaga will have a much tougher time going up 1v1 against any of the other hacs fitted properly and flown well. ----------------- Sig removed by some noob
Kharak'khan Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.08.08 19:57:00 - [41] Edited by: Kharak''khan on 08/08/2006 19:57:08 Vaga is fast and can do damage, The Zealot is considerably slower but is a tough nut with good damage. Ive always found Hacs work best in mixed gangs or a pair but you really will have to be lame for a vaga to kill a zealot easily most of the time its a stalemate. Most annoying thing about vags is they flit around like a fly on c rack. YARR HARR FIDDILEE DEE! DO WHAT YOU WANT AS A PIRATE IS FREE
Crellion Art of War	Posted - 2006.08.08 19:57:00 - [42] Originally by: Ath Amon Originally by: Crellion Perhaps that t2fittedTempest < Vagabond Neb Generally I can think of things I like about my Zealot that a Vaga cant do but if you are talking about Zealot v Vaga 1v1 it can go either way. The Vaga may win or the Vaga may warp out. Everything is possible. quite an apple vs orange comparsion imo, a tempest is not a big vaga... vaga rely on speed and passive/dmg/stabs () setups the tempest is nothing like that, is a more standard (minnie) dps ship, an evolution of the rupture if you want and not of stabber/vaga line. also as you can see this is not a thing minnie pilots are very happy as many wish to have a BS version of the stabber/vaga. Why... thank you! Now I understand the game of EvE so much better.
Mahavy Seth Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2006.08.08 21:40:00 - [43] Ok thanks mates... ver helpful advices. thanks you truly. Anyway I have still one mroe doubt: An armageddon will ***a zealot, or at least this is a balanced fight... So what the ** why with the rpice of a zealot I made a fleet of armageddons??
Weirda Minmatar Queens of the Stone Age Chimaera Pact	Posted - 2006.08.08 21:50:00 - [44] Originally by: Mahavy Seth So what the **** why with the rpice of a zealot I made a fleet of armageddons?? because it is t2, and with the way t2 lottery work... that's the way it is. as some others have said, KALI will definatley make the t2 market a lot more interesting.... hopefully... __ Weirda Join QOTSA Now
webkert Amarr Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.08.08 22:36:00 - [45] I found this graph in another thread. The spreadsheet has been modified so the zealot is using five turrets. zealot vs vaga
Frools Killson Corp	Posted - 2006.08.08 22:51:00 - [46] Edited by: Frools on 08/08/2006 22:51:29 Originally by: webkert I found this graph in another thread. The spreadsheet has been modified so the zealot is using five turrets. zealot vs vaga that doesnt look right, that might be for a theoretical 5 turret zealot zealot vs vaga max damage vaga max damage but barrage more sensible vaga vs conflag zealot scorch zealot
Ath Amon	Posted - 2006.08.09 07:15:00 - [47] Originally by: Crellion Originally by: Ath Amon quite an apple vs orange comparsion imo, a tempest is not a big vaga... vaga rely on speed and passive/dmg/stabs () setups the tempest is nothing like that, is a more standard (minnie) dps ship, an evolution of the rupture if you want and not of stabber/vaga line. also as you can see this is not a thing minnie pilots are very happy as many wish to have a BS version of the stabber/vaga. Why... thank you! Now I understand the game of EvE so much better. no prob... glad to bring enlightment is quite evident the tempest and vaga have 2 different philosophies while zealot and geddon have a more similar one. and a thing a bout graph 1) vaga can't use hail at all, the speed penality is too high 2) vaga can't fight much in 10km range or it will be webbed and toast and also generally is more common to fit a nos on the vaga instead of a missile launcher.
ELECTR0FREAK Eye of God	Posted - 2006.08.09 08:08:00 - [48] HACs really need a balance pass. Zealot could use 1 more turret and some drone bay. For that matter, ALL HACs should have at least 25 m^3 drone bay to fit 5 light T2 drones to fend off Inties. Those that don't have drone bay get tackled too easily compared to those who don't. I'd also like to see the Eagle get reworked. Just seems like it's losing it's role to the Rokh. I forsee it becoming an underused ship. Zealot, Demios, Munnin, Eagle. These HACs could use some work. The Sac still needs a little bit of lovin too now that command ships are out (it's not the be-all end-all of T2 tanks anymore). -Electrofreak Discoverer of the Missile Damage Formula
webkert Amarr Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.08.09 14:32:00 - [49] If I remember correctly zealots model doesnt support five turrets. But I wouldnt mind a small dronebay. Eagle wont lose its role to rokh because of tracking. It will still be the best anti-frig sniper.
Death Kill Caldari direkte	Posted - 2006.08.09 14:41:00 - [50] The stabbabond will never loose For the state for the state for the state
Deathbarrage	Posted - 2006.08.09 14:54:00 - [51] Originally by: Frools Edited by: Frools on 08/08/2006 22:51:29 Originally by: webkert I found this graph in another thread. The spreadsheet has been modified so the zealot is using five turrets. zealot vs vaga that doesnt look right, that might be for a theoretical 5 turret zealot zealot vs vaga max damage vaga max damage but barrage more sensible vaga vs conflag zealot scorch zealot problem with this graph is that you used the exact weapons that a zealot uses yet you used 425mm's and a heavy launcher while the usual vaga has 220mm's with a nos also the reason why 1v1 a vaga won't kill a zealot (unless the zealot is a noob) is cuz of the difference in tank.. Vaga's tank is rather fragile while the zealot's tank is rather stunning. These fights will only happen on sisi tho, on tranq the vaga pilot will just fly off
Montero Black Omega Security E.R.A	Posted - 2006.08.09 14:55:00 - [52] Originally by: webkert I found this graph in another thread. The spreadsheet has been modified so the zealot is using five turrets. zealot vs vaga That's all well and good apart from 99.9999% of vagas never using 425s, hail, a heavy missile, and for the most part 3 dmg mods. So basicaly yeah if you twist the stats the zealot does come out bad... I mean if the vaga could fit a doomsday it'd be even higher on that graph. --------- Scrapheap Challenge
Frools Killson Corp	Posted - 2006.08.09 15:35:00 - [53] Edited by: Frools on 09/08/2006 15:36:23 Originally by: Deathbarrage problem with this graph is that you used the exact weapons that a zealot uses yet you used 425mm's and a heavy launcher while the usual vaga has 220mm's with a nos also the reason why 1v1 a vaga won't kill a zealot (unless the zealot is a noob) is cuz of the difference in tank.. Vaga's tank is rather fragile while the zealot's tank is rather stunning. These fights will only happen on sisi tho, on tranq the vaga pilot will just fly off did you even read my post or look at the graph properly, you'll see i included a 220mm vaga with no heavy launcher... its a comparison of max theoretical damage zealot (which also happens to be a fairly common setup) vs max theoretical damage vaga AND a common setup vaga
Tassi Infinitus Odium	Posted - 2006.08.09 15:37:00 - [54] Originally by: Nebuli What exactly was your point? That you must be stupid or rich to fly a zealot.
Dr Fighter	Posted - 2006.08.09 16:28:00 - [55] The other HACs are one trick ponys: Vagabonds are silly fast, could tank, could do good dmg Deimos' are great dmg dealers, could tank, could go fast Cerb tank well and hav great range and average dmg, could do great dmg, could be fast Zealot (and ishtar to some extent) is the only HAC that can make a resnoble go of doing the main 3 resons to fly a hac, good dmg, range and speed - however will be beat by any other hac using its advantage to teh max. Of course the BS of the same race setup for close cambat will eat the same races HACs, ppl fly HACs to hit smaller ships hard while staying very mobile. If you dont like or fly HACs, dont post in the thread , your just trolling otherwise. And finally the decent HACs are expensive because demand is high and supply is low (after BPO owners hav supplyed their mates and corps etc), and also ppl with the skillz can afford them and are prepared to pay.

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