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Spaz Twit
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Posted - 2006.08.08 17:20:00 -
[1]
Remnant of Vak'Atioth
OK this card has a price of X, and deals X damage to target enemy ship with a Duration of 2. At Duration 1 it also makes the enemy draw 2 cards.
So does it work like this:
Round 1, Duration 2 : deals X damage to a target ship.
Round 2, Duration 1 : deals X damage to a target ship and controller of that ship draws 2 cards.
Or does it not deal damage in Duration 1? If it does deal damage twice, can you choose a different target for the 2nd time or is it stuck on the original target?
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Qual
Gallente
XanCom
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Posted - 2006.08.08 17:35:00 -
[2]
If the card text looks like this:
Duration 2: deals X damage to a target ship
Duration 1: controller of target ship draws 2 cards
You only deal damage at duration 2. At duration 1 the controller draws cards. (Even if the target was destroyed in duration 2 I would say.)
"The short version: Qual is right." - Papa Smurf |
Anarlina
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Posted - 2006.08.08 18:05:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Anarlina on 08/08/2006 18:06:29
 Originally by: Qual
At duration 1 the controller draws cards. (Even if the target was destroyed in duration 2 I would say.)
This would be correct.
This card does deal damage twice, as each duration states that it deals daamge. Not sure this would be very helpful, IMO, as if you haven't killed it on the first turn, how would you kill it on the second without another one or a different effect making it easier?
Also, if you do kill it on the first duration, the news will still let the controller draw 2 cards the next turn.
On the other hand... this might be an interesting way to get yourself to draw cards. *grin*
Although about the whole one or two targets thing, I wouldn't know, actually. In Magic, a card's target is selected when the card is placed on the stack/pile, and I am not sure if that applies in EvE, since when I read through, it wasn't entirely clear on cards like this.
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Spaz Twit
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Posted - 2006.08.08 18:38:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Qual
If the card text looks like this:
Duration 2: deals X damage to a target ship
Duration 1: controller of target ship draws 2 cards
You only deal damage at duration 2. At duration 1 the controller draws cards. (Even if the target was destroyed in duration 2 I would say.)
I don't have the card in front of me. But it does not have Duration 2: in front of the 'deals damage' bit. It does have the Duration 1: in front of the 'draw cards' bit.
Here's the reason I'm asking.
I played this card but my opponent prevented some damage using a logistics cruiser so it didn't get destroyed. Then on her turn she spent all her ISK on something else, when my turn came around again I thought her ship would go poof since it would deal the damage again at Duration 1, and she'd draw 2 cards. But it's either not really clear or we are overlooking a rule somewhere.
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Trak Cranker
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Posted - 2006.08.08 20:02:00 -
[5]
Text is(more or less):
--
Remanblablabla deals X damage to target enemy ship.
DURATION I - The controller of that ship may draw 2 cards.
--
So I'd say that the X damage is dealt when played (nothing duration based to that part).
Then at duration I the owner of target ship draws cards.
Only one hit.
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Qual
Gallente
XanCom
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Posted - 2006.08.08 20:18:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Trak Cranker
Text is(more or less):
--
Remanblablabla deals X damage to target enemy ship.
DURATION I - The controller of that ship may draw 2 cards.
--
So I'd say that the X damage is dealt when played (nothing duration based to that part).
Then at duration I the owner of target ship draws cards.
Only one hit.
I agree.
And targets are chosen when playing the card to the pile. (Says under the pile rules I think. Or somewhere else. But it IS there.)
"The short version: Qual is right." - Papa Smurf |
Roundtable2
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Posted - 2006.08.08 21:21:00 -
[7]
I also aggre with Trak and Qual, and it's how I plan to plat the 3 copies I got in my maga-pack (2 reg, 1 foil) XD
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Storm Mage
Amarr
Forgotten Souls
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Posted - 2006.08.09 02:48:00 -
[8]
But, does the news die if the target is destroyed in the first round? Or would it just float there randomly? It is an almost identical situation to the Stubborn Mechanic card, if the ship is destroyed where does the mechanic go?
My personal bet is that they go to the trash if the target ship is destroyed. Any dev clarification?
Let the lightning be your warning and the thunder your battlecry!
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Fretegir
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Posted - 2006.08.09 06:27:00 -
[9]
The card says: Deals X damage
and duration 1: controller takes 2 cards.
This means it only does damage 1 time, when you play it.
Then the news stays in game (becuase it has a duration)
When the ship would be destroyed in the same pile you play the remnant it still stays in the game. It just doesnt do its damage.
The way to not have the ships controller draw cards is to destroy the news card AFter the original event pile has been ended.
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Qual
Gallente
XanCom
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Posted - 2006.08.09 06:32:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Storm Mage
But, does the news die if the target is destroyed in the first round? Or would it just float there randomly? It is an almost identical situation to the Stubborn Mechanic card, if the ship is destroyed where does the mechanic go?
My personal bet is that they go to the trash if the target ship is destroyed. Any dev clarification?
It does not go away.
"The short version: Qual is right." - Papa Smurf |
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Qual
Gallente
XanCom
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Posted - 2006.08.09 06:43:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Trak Cranker
Text is(more or less):
--
Remanblablabla deals X damage to target enemy ship.
DURATION I - The controller of that ship may draw 2 cards.
--
So I'd say that the X damage is dealt when played (nothing duration based to that part).
Then at duration I the owner of target ship draws cards.
Only one hit.
But im left with one question. Target is of course set when the card is played on the pile. But when is controller determined?
My point is, if the card is killed before duration I, does it still have a controller for the purpus of this card?
I could find good reasons to say either way. If controler is set a play time, we dont get to worry about this beeing killed. If it is determined at resolve time in duration I, all kind of fun is possible if expansions to the game adds cards that can transfer control of a ship to another player (Havent seen that kind of card in the base set yet. Might be there, I just havent seen it yet.)
"The short version: Qual is right." - Papa Smurf |
Trak Cranker
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Posted - 2006.08.09 07:42:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Trak Cranker on 09/08/2006 07:42:51
Originally by: Qual
But im left with one question. Target is of course set when the card is played on the pile. But when is controller determined?
I would like an official ruling on this also.
Because I can see at least three ways to rule on this, and between at least two of them I can't even agree with my self which is right.
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Ishana
Minmatar
Millennium
E.R.A
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Posted - 2006.08.09 07:55:00 -
[13]
I would say that the moment you target something you determine the controller. Then you deal damage. The controller draws 2 cards refers to the before mentioned controller.
I doubt very much that the developers wanted this card to let someone else then the "victim" draw cards. (Since the card is pretty powerfull for it's cost, so this is it's drawback.)
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Qual
Gallente
XanCom
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Posted - 2006.08.09 08:58:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Qual on 09/08/2006 09:03:28
Originally by: Ishana
I would say that the moment you target something you determine the controller. Then you deal damage. The controller draws 2 cards refers to the before mentioned controller.
I doubt very much that the developers wanted this card to let someone else then the "victim" draw cards. (Since the card is pretty powerfull for it's cost, so this is it's drawback.)
Its equally powerfull if I play it on myself. I get 2 cards for the cost 0 next turn. (0 is a valid cost here, as far as I can see.) Now killing that ship is very much in my oppnents interest, if control is first determined at the resolving of duration 1.
"The short version: Qual is right." - Papa Smurf |
Ishana
Minmatar
Millennium
E.R.A
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Posted - 2006.08.09 09:01:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Ishana on 09/08/2006 09:01:43
I never even thought of using it to gain 2 cards for 0 cost 
Anyway, I still think that there is now way to prevent the 2 cards being drawn. unless you play a "destroy target news" before duration 1 has been reached.
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Trak Cranker
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Posted - 2006.08.09 09:05:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Trak Cranker on 09/08/2006 09:05:27
Originally by: Trak Cranker
..target enemy ship...
So, I would say no go, Qual, on that one.
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Fretegir
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Posted - 2006.08.09 09:27:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Ishana
I never even thought of using it to gain 2 cards for 0 cost
Using cards in the not expected way is what makes a good player a great player !
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Qual
Gallente
XanCom
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Posted - 2006.08.09 09:29:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Qual on 09/08/2006 09:32:19
Originally by: Trak Cranker
Edited by: Trak Cranker on 09/08/2006 09:05:27
Originally by: Trak Cranker
..target enemy ship...
So, I would say no go, Qual, on that one.
Ah, bugger... 
To bad really. If it didnt say that, it would have been one of those cool Swiss Army Knife cards, that are really usefull as they can serve multiple purpuses. Oh, well...
"The short version: Qual is right." - Papa Smurf |
Trak Cranker
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Posted - 2006.08.09 09:30:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Trak Cranker on 09/08/2006 09:31:28
But in this case the unintended way is also not possible according to the card text. Which is less great. :)
But the thought still had merit on its own terms ofc. :)
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Fretegir
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Posted - 2006.08.09 10:31:00 -
[20]
the "intended" way is you do damage on opponent and because the card is so good he get cards for it.
The "unintended" way is you target your own ship for 0 damage at end of your opponents turn and then you get assembly pahse and draw 2 cards yourself.
Usuaaly not the best way of using this card but drawing 2 cards can mean alot of difference.
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Trak Cranker
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Posted - 2006.08.09 10:59:00 -
[21]
Fretegir; I will ask you to read 3-4 replies back.
Your unintended way can't be done.
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Fretegir
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Posted - 2006.08.09 11:18:00 -
[22]
Ok, i didnt know it was enemy ship.
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Ariemeth
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Posted - 2006.08.09 13:08:00 -
[23]
I am leaning toward once a ship goes to the scrapheap and no longer in play there is no controller. The card does not say the controller when the card is played, only on Duration 1 does it mention controller, thus if you kill the ship there is no controller to draw 2 cards. However if the controller managed to play or do something that prevented you from destroying the ship such as stubborn mechanic which gives a +2 shield bonus then on duration 1 the ships controller draws 2 cards. From the rulebook on Controller vs. Owner: "Nothing in the game requires you to relinquish ownership of your cards, but cards in play can often switch controllers!" I read this to mean only cards in play(not the scrapheap or hand) have a controller. |
Ishana
Minmatar
Millennium
E.R.A
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Posted - 2006.08.09 13:16:00 -
[24]
Like I said before,
"The controller" on that card refers to the controller of the ship at the time of the dealt damage. So it doesn't matter if the ship is in the scrapheap or not. The controller of the ship getting damage, gets 2 cards once it hit's duration 1.
TBH I don't really see the problem. if they had to make it more clear, then it would have been A long text. something like (the controller of the targetted ship at the time of the damage, draws 2 cards once this card reaches duration 1.)
The way the text now is, seems perfectly clear to me, and I can't imagine it being ment as anything else by the devs.
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Qual
Gallente
XanCom
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Posted - 2006.08.09 13:43:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Qual on 09/08/2006 13:43:51
Originally by: Ishana
Like I said before,
"The controller" on that card refers to the controller of the ship at the time of the dealt damage. So it doesn't matter if the ship is in the scrapheap or not. The controller of the ship getting damage, gets 2 cards once it hit's duration 1.
TBH I don't really see the problem. if they had to make it more clear, then it would have been A long text. something like (the controller of the targetted ship at the time of the damage, draws 2 cards once this card reaches duration 1.)
The way the text now is, seems perfectly clear to me, and I can't imagine it being ment as anything else by the devs.
I dont doubt that is the intent with THIS card. But in general there should be a definition of WHEN controller is determined. Is it when the card is played, or is it when a given effect is resolved. This is a HUGELY important timing question. And cannot be disregarded easily. On locations for example, controller is NOT determined when the card is played, but when the effect is resolved. But is that a special case, or is this an indication of how it is with all effects that are resolved?
So while we here, when not engaged in a game as opponents we can possibly agree on the card intent, i a playing scenario, I would not be as easy to give in to my oppenents interpretaion, if its not to my benifit...
"The short version: Qual is right." - Papa Smurf |
Trak Cranker
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Posted - 2006.08.09 14:09:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Qual
So while we here, when not engaged in a game as opponents we can possibly agree on the card intent, i a playing scenario, I would not be as easy to give in to my oppenents interpretaion, if its not to my benifit...
Exactly. This is the forum for spanking the smallest ambiguities(sp?) until they are dead and bloody and a dev intervenes with the voice of God.
Ishana can say what he/she wants - but that card is wide open to interpretation and as Qual says, its not something you want to debate during a game.
Even if most of us here would agree, we can always run into the odd player that would interpret it another way.
And then "because" will not hold up as an argument.
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Ishana
Minmatar
Millennium
E.R.A
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Posted - 2006.08.09 14:31:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Trak Cranker
Originally by: Qual
So while we here, when not engaged in a game as opponents we can possibly agree on the card intent, i a playing scenario, I would not be as easy to give in to my oppenents interpretaion, if its not to my benifit...
Exactly. This is the forum for spanking the smallest ambiguities(sp?) until they are dead and bloody and a dev intervenes with the voice of God.
Ishana can say what he/she wants - but that card is wide open to interpretation and as Qual says, its not something you want to debate during a game.
Even if most of us here would agree, we can always run into the odd player that would interpret it another way.
And then "because" will not hold up as an argument.
It's not that don't agree with you. I would like to have a dev make a clear statement on such things.
I just think that this particular card doesn't pose to big of an issue. Although if you try hard enough you could indeed argue like some have. But tbh, I would probably just not play with that guy again.
In all honesty most of the rules are pretty clear, and intuitive in eve-ccg. I've played warhammer 40K for a while, and I can tell you there were so many loopholes and wording problems it made my head spin. After all the discusions i had during those games, this seems to be very well written rules.
(but there is always room for improvement ofcourse.  )
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Qual
Gallente
XanCom
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Posted - 2006.08.09 14:35:00 -
[28]
The rules are good and pretty clear on intent, yes. But they are not turnament ready yet. Thats what I and outher are trying to get them to be by questioning everything that within reason can be discusable about the rules as they stand now.
"The short version: Qual is right." - Papa Smurf |
Anarlina
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Posted - 2006.08.10 06:06:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Qual
Edited by: Qual on 09/08/2006 13:43:51
Originally by: Ishana
Like I said before,
"The controller" on that card refers to the controller of the ship at the time of the dealt damage. So it doesn't matter if the ship is in the scrapheap or not. The controller of the ship getting damage, gets 2 cards once it hit's duration 1.
TBH I don't really see the problem. if they had to make it more clear, then it would have been A long text. something like (the controller of the targetted ship at the time of the damage, draws 2 cards once this card reaches duration 1.)
The way the text now is, seems perfectly clear to me, and I can't imagine it being ment as anything else by the devs.
I dont doubt that is the intent with THIS card. But in general there should be a definition of WHEN controller is determined. Is it when the card is played, or is it when a given effect is resolved. This is a HUGELY important timing question. And cannot be disregarded easily. On locations for example, controller is NOT determined when the card is played, but when the effect is resolved. But is that a special case, or is this an indication of how it is with all effects that are resolved?
So while we here, when not engaged in a game as opponents we can possibly agree on the card intent, i a playing scenario, I would not be as easy to give in to my oppenents interpretaion, if its not to my benifit...
This may be true, although here is something I noticed with the News and Location/Region card types:
Location/Region - The controller is determined when the ability is triggered and placed on the pile.
News - The controller/targets are determined when the news is placed on the pile, before it truly enters play.
Where this gets confusing is that News cards like this one have multiple abilities that go onto the pile at different times. However, if I was a dev and wanted to make this clear, I would go with the ruling that abilities triggered by news cards during the duration use the targets/etc that were set when the News card itself resolved and entered play, as this is the intention.
Another odd thing I noticed about News cards is how some abilities last the entire duration, and others are effectively instant effects with a delay for some other effect (usually the secondary cost). It doesn't specify very clearly which is which.
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Testy Mctest
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Posted - 2006.08.10 07:58:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Testy Mctest on 10/08/2006 07:59:10
This card is a bit hazy due to the way it is worded. But let me clarify one thing to start with; according to Eve's rules, you only control a card that is in play. At all other times you are merely that card's owner. Hence, if the ship is destroyed and goes to your scrapheap, you no longer control it at the time when the duration 1 effect resolves.
However, the wording on the card reads:
DURATION 1: The controller of that ship may draw 2 cards
Because it includes the word *that*, which is not a time-definite word, it is possible that you draw the card based on the target that was 'locked in' on your previous turn. It is also possible that the card now re-checks to see if it's target is still there, and being as it isn't if the ship was destroyed, the player gets to draw no cards.
I'd say the design intention looks like it may be the former, although I have to say, if the intention is that, then it's a pretty weak card. Either way, it needs a dev ruling for sure.
Scrapheap Challenge Forums |
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