| Pages: [1] :: one page |
| Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Android Mindslave
   |
Posted - 2006.08.09 14:23:00 -
[1]
I can pilot an Oblisk, but I'm a long ways from having the isk to buy an Oblisk and fill its cargo hold. I'm not looking forward to grinding that much isk.
I've done some initial investigation of the ore/mineral market and my spreadsheets tell me I should be able to make money.
This has me contemplating the idea of investment.
I've scratched out an initial plan. Basically I form a corp, I sell 49.9% of the shares to raise about ~890mil (or less) for a freighter and about 300mil in capital for purchasing low-end minerals, transporting them, and selling them for a profit.
Upon the compleation of every profitable transaction, I would pay 100% of the profit generated out as dividens, meaning that 49.9% of the profit would be paid to investors, and 50.1% of the profit would be placed back into the corp wallet.
If for whatever reason I no longer wish to run the freighter business, I just pocket the ammount of isk that is over the initial capital investment, sell the freighter on Escrow, which should leave the initial capital + freighter price and I just keep paying the entire corp wallet out as a dividen until the balance in the corp wallet approaches zero. Meaning that the investors would get their initial investments back.
I really don't expect this to be a 'high yeild' operation, simply a stable and steady source of profit with an initial investment that should be secure and not devalue.
Does anyone have any feedback or suggestions on my initial concept?
|
Ferrosa
Gallente
Lyonesse Inc.
|
Posted - 2006.08.09 14:27:00 -
[2]
Don't forget to buy instas for all the regions you will be visiting... They are lifesavers and not to mention time-savers!
Do you have a name for you venture yet? 
Selling drones at Lyonesse Inc. |
JP Moregain
Gallente
|
Posted - 2006.08.09 17:39:00 -
[3]
Edited by: JP Moregain on 09/08/2006 17:43:57
Edited by: JP Moregain on 09/08/2006 17:42:30
Note that until they improve the legal ownership system for Eve, this would still basically be an unsecured loan to you...
This is because the only assets of the corporation which the buyers of IPO shares would 'own' 49% of would be:
1) The freighter (which you as CEO could walk away with on day one)
2) Your willingness to use the frieghter to make money for the shareholders (versus just for you).
What would help this situation and stimulate a lot more finanical services activity in this game would be would be a 'legal ownership' system for higher value items (say a freighter or a POS) similar to a title for a car, such that there would be some capabilty to 'repossess' the specific asset and/or force a sale to create proceeds for payout in the event of a specific default event.
Right now possession is 100% of the law, which perhaps makes sense in 0.0, but certainly not in Empire space.
The title could be placed with a 3rd party (a trust company or bank) until both sides have fulfilled their terms, and be available to allow for repossession in the event of a default event.
This would be fun also since the bounty hunter type activity could be extended to repo man activity (they get a fee upon delivery of the stolen/default collateral). Also stolen assets could be fenced out in 0.0 space, but then subject to impounding by Concord if they re-enter empire space, and subject to the repo men out in 0.0 (be careful about buying that hot ship out in 0.0!) Of course repo men would need some sort of modified webbifier/tractor beam that could force the ejection of the pod and the towing of the repossessed ship back to a station.
"In JP We Trust, All Others Require Collateral..." |
Android Mindslave
|
Posted - 2006.08.09 19:08:00 -
[4]
JP, don't take this the wrong way, but I don't find discussion of features that don't exist in EVE all that useful for a thread I started for getting ideas aimed at practical application. You raise valid points, but unless one of us is a Dev, anything not supported by the game is moot.
The investment is clearly unsecured. That is just how EVE is. The real world really isn't much more secure either.
It isn't a loan, as a loan has interest, a payment schedule, and is paid back in full and then done. I don't need that kind of a headache from a game.
This would simply be partial ownership of a freighter. 50% of profits would be paid to the pilot, and 50% of the profit would be paid to the owners. If the freighter runs 3 times in a day, then it pays out 3 times that day. If it only runs 1 time in a week, then it pays out one time that week.
Like the real world, initial investment in a new venture has an absurd level of risk. If you assume that half of all business plans in EVE are scams, then investment in EVE is probably safer than investment in the real world, because a lot of new investment oppertunities in the real world result in a total loss.
Nobody is going pay 50% of profits generated on secure money. Belive me, secure investments would help people with legit business plans *far* more than it would help investors. Someone would have to be drunk and retarded if they expected people to pay anything over T-bill like returns on secure money.
Fact of the matter is that EVE is probably a better game for the lack of security. It is the wild west out here. If you hit on something that works, you get good returns. If you miss, it is usually a total loss.
It is more robber baron than 'diversified mutual fund portfilio'. If the point of a game is excitement and fun, then the latter may not be what CCP is aiming for. |
JP Moregain
Gallente
Moregain Guaranty Trust
|
Posted - 2006.08.09 19:45:00 -
[5]
Edited by: JP Moregain on 09/08/2006 19:48:13
Touche...
Just pointing out the weaknesses of the current system, and I agree they shouldn't make it too tame. Just that a lot more financial activity could and would take place if they improved the legal structure. Your statement that it is really not any different in RL is true in some places like China, where the rule of law is that strong yet, but prob. not in most of the nations where the players reside. I don't think that is an entirely unproductive line to take.
Good luck.
-JP
"In JP We Trust, All Others Require Collateral..." |
Rugah
|
Posted - 2006.08.11 14:08:00 -
[6]
I Śm willing to take a share in your freighter service.
Probably offering orders for your service too.
Contact me via EVE-Mail if you really like to start.
Rugah
|
Aaro'ne Erviale
EVE Galactic Stock Exchange
|
Posted - 2006.08.11 14:32:00 -
[7]
I applaude your initiative, but I have some questions to the 49.9 - 50.1 share distribution.
I believe strongly that any IPO share should represent a % in the corporation value.
As such you want to sell half of the shares and you keep half, as such you collect 100% of the corporation value, but only issue 49.9% of the shares. So after the IPO these shares will only have half their value as your half also represents half of the corp value.
In this way you could also scam everyone by selling the remaining shares bit by bit after the IPO finishes and prices rize (believe me, this has been done).
So I suggest you issue all shares during the IPO and buy a % yourself by putting the corresponding amount of isk or assets in the corporation.
Hope I explain this clearly?
Success with the IPO and greetz,
Aaro'ne Erviale
CEO of EVE Galactic Stock Exchange
 Quote:
As a buyer and seller of shares this is the place i want to be.
|
Android Mindslave
Gallente
Mindworks Unlimited
|
Posted - 2006.08.11 15:59:00 -
[8]
well the 50.1 thing was the prevent shenanigans.
I'm not 100% up to speed on corp management options but my understanding, which I may be totally wrong on, is that if there are a majority of shares outside my control, that means if someone got 50.1% of the shares they could vote me off as CEO and raid the corp.
Or am I just applying real world corprate raider thinking to EVE.
Actually I guess it wouldn't really matter one way or the other. I'd be in possession of the freighter, and all that would be in the wallet would be capital which would be less than 50% of the value of the shares so raiding wouldn't net any gain unless someone sold their shares well below actual value.
|
Archo X
Caldari
|
Posted - 2006.08.11 16:25:00 -
[9]
Another issue is the ROI.
ISS shares make isk 23/7. People are constantly docking, buying/selling, cloning, and using other faciliies. Production corps can run production jobs 24/7, needing to only log in to complete jobs, put items on market and start new jobs.
Running a freighter means that you only profit when you are on. This could be one hour a week or a hundred. Your profits could be 1 isk per m3 or a hundred. You'd need to scetch out a rough profit plan (without giving too much detail so someone could steal it).
If you make your own corp you are likely to be targeted by wanna-be pirates war-decing you and ransoming your freighter. If the freighter goes pop then so does the isk of all the investors.
Lastly, your stake in the corp should be determined by the amount you put into it. You should only get to pocket 50% of the profit if you own 50% of the shares. Now you could do something like this:
50% of profit is share-holder divident
30% of profit goes to corp capital (so the next trip you can buy Pyer instead of Trit or just more Trit)
20% of profit goes to the pilot (or a flat fee of 500k per jump) **The lower this amount the better it looks to investors.
Using the above example 80% of the profit goes back to the share holders in the form of dividend or share value.
|
Android Mindslave
Gallente
Mindworks Unlimited
|
Posted - 2006.08.11 21:59:00 -
[10]
Those are some good points for me to think about.
War-decs are not really a problem. They take 24 hours to go through, so losing a freighter that way is impossible, and my freighter pilot has a whole lot of Vs next to a lot of skills used for blowing people up.
I really can't do anything about the fact that my venture won't have returns on the level of ISS. Not every company gets to be Microsoft. At this point I'm really finding that I can't put down a projected rate of income, because there are just too many variables that I simply lack the experiance to make anything other than a totally unrealistic guess. All I can say is that my spreadsheets say I can make money, they don't tell me the rate at which I can fill those buy orders on freighter scales.
As for less than a 50-50 split. No dice. A 50-50 split is a perfectly fair distribution of between the person putting the time in, and the people putting no time in. Isk sitting in a wallet has a 0% return. Any share that returns even a single isk and retains its value is a worthwhile purchase at this point.
Re-investment into the pool of capital is a good point. I was simply going to use my 50% of the split to increase the purchasing power of the freighter. On the compleation of any run, capital is returned to the respective owners (my wallet and the corp wallet), and any left over cash is split 50-50 between the investors and myself.
|
Shaikar
Amarr
|
Posted - 2006.08.12 01:19:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Shaikar on 12/08/2006 01:22:31
/edited for sense
Those shares won't retain their original value though, the issued shares start off with less than half the value of the isk it cost to buy them in the first place - thats what makes people question :)
For example, say you run the operation like you say with no intent to scam whatsoever. Corp has 10,000 shares in total, you issue 4,990 of them to buy the freighter for say 800million (160320isk/share, roughly).
Then you decide you can't be bothered, or something irl crops up and you don't have the time to deal with the business any more, so you sell the assets (the freighter) and buy back the shares. Assuming the freighter gets sold back for cost price each shareholder receives 800,000,000/10,000 = 80,000isk per share.
The investors recieve 399,200,000isk back fom their intial 800mil investment. Not exactly a healthy return.
You however recieve 400,800,000 isk as you own 50.1% of the shares, which is an excellent return on your inital investment of 0 isk.
|
Android Mindslave
Gallente
Mindworks Unlimited
|
Posted - 2006.08.12 05:38:00 -
[12]
In my original post, you can see that my liquidation plan involved leaving the 50.1% of the shares in the corp wallet and liquidating the assets at or above market value, and then repeatly paying dividens until the corp wallet approaches zero (In the event I can't unload the freighter for a profit, I'd add some cash to keep it from being too many payments).
This would anyone who invested X isk would get X amount of isk back.
However, I think I'd have to issue 100% shares and hope there isn't a mechanism in EVE that can be used for corprate raiding. I've been looking at the corp interface and I've not seen any means for booting the CEO and installing a new one
|
Shaikar
Amarr
|
Posted - 2006.08.12 07:54:00 -
[13]
So it does, sorry 
I shall try to cut down on the late night posting.
|
Android Mindslave
Gallente
Mindworks Unlimited
|
Posted - 2006.08.12 08:40:00 -
[14]
Well you do bring a good point.
Doing the split the way I was considering appears to be somewhat confusing and isn't instantly obvious at face value, and would therefore be a bad way to do it.
|
Anyanka Chantais
Gallente
Legitimate Businessmen's Social Club
|
Posted - 2006.08.12 11:41:00 -
[15]
As far as i know, you have to be a corp director to steal control of a corp. so you should be alright selling all the shares. you may want to pop by the EGSEx channel and ask some of the idle CEOs to verify though, or check in the help channel. This would also make it easier for you to manage your dividends and potential liquidation/buyback.
Also, EVEmail me if you're still looking for investors. I've got some ISK I might not mind floating out to an entrepreneur such as yourself.
Remember, everyone, "Only invest what you can afford to lose."
_______________________________________________
Now offering writing and editing services.
Trusted broker of the EVE Galactic Stock Exchange. |
Sonlatur
Minmatar
Matari Raiders
|
Posted - 2006.08.12 11:46:00 -
[16]
Since your motive is to get the money for the freighter and not to run a public company, asking for a loan might make you happier than creating an IPO and being stuck with it forever.
--
"Greetings fellow pod pilot. I am Sonlatur of the Sebiestor tribe and you have become a target in my war against the Evil Amarr Empire. Ransom negotiations are possible." |
Zulef
Outrider Fleet Command
|
Posted - 2006.08.14 10:33:00 -
[17]
If you make a more detailed business plan showing how you intend to make a profit and distribute the shares, I'd be willing to buy some of the shares.
|
| |
|
| Pages: [1] :: one page |
| First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |