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Minmatar Recons and Tracking

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Imhotep Khem Vortex.	Posted - 2006.08.09 18:26:00 - [1] Your objective as a pilot is not to have "good tracking" but to have better tracking than your enemy. As such, when fitting any tracking improvement module (Target painter, Tracking Computer, Tracking Enhancer, Enemy MWD), or tracking hindering module (Tracking Disruptor, Skirmish Link) You want to _increase_ transversal. It makes no sense to have superior tracking, then to minimize this advantage by reducing transversal. The conclusion is that if you have secured for yourself a tracking advantage through any means, webbification of yourself or your enemy will nullify it. So you do not want webbifiers. Thus, the Rapier and the Huginn have bonuses that do not complement each other. I ripped in an earlier post on TargetPainters. They are trash. If eventually they are made to not be trash, the Minmatar Recons are still stuck with bonuses that do not work well together. Thus I would ask CCP to remove the TP bonus from the Minmatar Recons. Or to give them such a value that they are worth twice a normal bonus since the two bonuses do not 'stack' like other races bonuses. ____ "If your not dyin' your not tryin'." "Are you prepared to go all the way, Alexi?" DuGalle
Apertotes Nuevos Horizontes	Posted - 2006.08.09 18:36:00 - [2] Originally by: Imhotep Khem Your objective as a pilot is not to have "good tracking" but to have better tracking than your enemy. As such, when fitting any tracking improvement module (Target painter, Tracking Computer, Tracking Enhancer, Enemy MWD), or tracking hindering module (Tracking Disruptor, Skirmish Link) You want to _increase_ transversal. It makes no sense to have superior tracking, then to minimize this advantage by reducing transversal. The conclusion is that if you have secured for yourself a tracking advantage through any means, webbification of yourself or your enemy will nullify it. So you do not want webbifiers. Thus, the Rapier and the Huginn have bonuses that do not complement each other. I ripped in an earlier post on TargetPainters. They are trash. If eventually they are made to not be trash, the Minmatar Recons are still stuck with bonuses that do not work well together. Thus I would ask CCP to remove the TP bonus from the Minmatar Recons. Or to give them such a value that they are worth twice a normal bonus since the two bonuses do not 'stack' like other races bonuses. even though i agree that giving the faster race the worst tracking is not a very good idea, and that the tracking calculations are stupid ( i mean, the guns of the ship orbiting should be facing the ship being orbited, thus having a 0 transversal, but anyway...), i dont think webbers anf TP contradict each other. the best thing of webbers is that after you web the bastard at 30 km, it is you that dictate both range and transversal. if your weapons have a low tracking, then you want to web him so that he doesnt orbit you, making it impossible to hit him. if your weapons have a higher tracking, then you want to web him to refrain him from using his speed to align to you and minimize transversal speed. Apertotes, the Guybrush Threepwood of New Eve
Arkios Odymei Caldar Mercenary Syndicate	Posted - 2006.08.09 18:37:00 - [3] If I recall, Target painters only increas the effective sig radius of your target, making them easier for bigger guns to hit and increasing the chance for wreaking hits and such. Also keep in mind, ppl in your gang should have a faster time locking a painted target. I dont think Target painters affect tracking in any way whatsoever. I have to look at the stats of the ship again, but webification should not counter "your enemy's larger sig radius", being that sig radius has nothing to do with transversal.
Arkios Odymei Caldar Mercenary Syndicate	Posted - 2006.08.09 18:43:00 - [4] Just a Quick thought: After looking at the stats of the ship quickly, it looks like the ship is meant to be an artilery boat. With a potentialy 40km web range, you can keep your enemy far away from you, while your guns will be scoring lots of nice wreaking shots due to the target painting bonus and the ROF bonus. I could be completely wrong tho, being as i am not spec'd in Minmatar.
Valea Silpha Cereal Killerz Chimaera Pact	Posted - 2006.08.09 18:52:00 - [5] The webbing bonus is awesome, but the target painting one is only usefull if you are in a gang with BS or are shooting at frigs. Sig of the average cruiser is 125m , scan res on a 720mm arty is 125, therefore painting won't make any differance against targets of cruiser size or larger. Personally i find the target painter bonus to be bad because it doesn't afford the ship any protection. The other recons get ECM/damp/tracking disruption bonuses which help them to not die. Then they get scrambler/nos/ECM again (ECM is an awesome offencive module) help them kill things. We get one gang mod, and everyones favorite web bonus, which just isn't fair. If we had one viable missile ship, then i would say it makes sense, but as we don't theres no point. <Hammerhead> TomB is doing the nerfing <Hammerhead> I just stand behind him, look at his monitor and shake my head
Kerin Blackhand Valehaven Ltd	Posted - 2006.08.09 19:02:00 - [6] Something else to consider regarding target painters is that missile damage is directly related to target signature. Boosting target sig with a painter will increase missile damage closer to max damage. -------- Originally by: Brer Lapin Hi I'm Scissors, Paper's fine but rock needs a nerf.
Arkios Odymei Caldar Mercenary Syndicate	Posted - 2006.08.09 19:10:00 - [7] Edited by: Arkios Odymei on 09/08/2006 19:14:36 Originally by: Valea Silpha Sig of the average cruiser is 125m , scan res on a 720mm arty is 125, therefore painting won't make any differance against targets of cruiser size or larger. As I said before, a higher sig radius should help your arttys get more and better wreaking shots in on cruisers and larger. Originally by: Kerin Blackhand Something else to consider regarding target painters is that missile damage is directly related to target signature. Boosting target sig with a painter will increase missile damage closer to max damage. This is also a good point. Assuming you can deal with the cap recharge penalty, You can put High damaging Fury Heavy Missiles to use. Their lower explosion velocity means nothing, being that the target is webbed, And they will be doing full damage to a Painted cruiser.
Lazuran	Posted - 2006.08.09 19:29:00 - [8] Originally by: Arkios Odymei This is also a good point. Assuming you can deal with the cap recharge penalty, You can put High damaging Fury Heavy Missiles to use. Their lower explosion velocity means nothing, being that the target is webbed, And they will be doing full damage to a Painted cruiser. You don't need a target painter bonus for this though, since they have only 150m explosion radius and that's less than any ship without TP bonus will push a cruiser to with an unnamed T1 TP ... (125 + 25% = 156.25)
Estan Drake	Posted - 2006.08.09 19:30:00 - [9] Edited by: Estan Drake on 09/08/2006 19:31:42 Originally by: Arkios Odymei Originally by: Kerin Blackhand Something else to consider regarding target painters is that missile damage is directly related to target signature. Boosting target sig with a painter will increase missile damage closer to max damage. Tis is also a good point. Assuming you can deal with the cap recharge penalty, You can put High damaging Fury Heavy Missiles to use. Their lower explosion velocity means nothing, being that the target is webbed, And they will be doing full damage to a Painted cruiser. edit see post above, normal painter is enough That is indeed a viable use. Unfortunately to fit those 3 Heavy launcher IIs you have to pretty much give up on any hope of fitting artillery or much of a tank. So that extra range you get isn't going to do you any favors when only 3 of your high slots are doing anything to the enemy. Though I suppose you could web, paint and then slooowly fly up to within 2km of the enemy and let loose with the Autocannons as well as the rage. To me though the 7.5% bonus is sort of wimpy adding only 11.25% to your painter at level 5. But I am thinking this is just to balance it out in the even the huginn pilot also has that 5% per level to painter amount trained to level 5 - which would be a 71.8% bonus which means a 51% painter if you started with a noraml 30% one.
Arkios Odymei Caldar Mercenary Syndicate	Posted - 2006.08.09 19:39:00 - [10] Alright, So the painter bonus is kinda useless when it comes to fury missiles... And it only helps a little with getting higher damage hits. Is that pretty much it then? Is an Artilery boat the only way to fully make use of these ships? (some backstory: Im not Minmatar spec'd but a friend of mine is and likes the concept of Recon Ships. Since he is going to start training for them soon, I diceded I wanna dig up a little more info on them. Im trying to see if they would be worth the time to train)

Estan Drake	Posted - 2006.08.09 20:47:00 - [11] I havn't really flown it, but the webber bonus would probably make it a usefull as either an Autocannon boat by allowing you to get into range quickly or artillery because you can kill their transversal as long range and not have to worry about tracking..... but yes, Artillery seems to be a better use for now. If you keep current on the dev blogs though, they are planning to make assault missile launchers better. Checkit out, 3 assault launchers might make ait a pretty nifty ship in a fight... but still that TP bonus is still there hanging useless inless you plan on going after intercepters alot.
Imhotep Khem Vortex.	Posted - 2006.08.09 20:58:00 - [12] Originally by: Apertotes ...even though i agree that giving the faster race the worst tracking is not a very good idea, and that the tracking calculations are stupid ( i mean, the guns of the ship orbiting should be facing the ship being orbited, thus having a 0 transversal, but anyway...), i dont think webbers anf TP contradict each other. This is a misconception I tried to address in my post. Giving the fastest race the worst tracking is meaningless. Tracking is a factor of both ships. The transversal one pilot sees is the same as the other pilot sees. In case you didnt think about it, webbifying your enemy makes HIS tracking better as well. Originally by: Apertotes the best thing of webbers is that after you web the bastard at 30 km, it is you that dictate both range and transversal. if your weapons have a low tracking, then you want to web him so that he doesnt orbit you, making it impossible to hit him. You are exactly right. One of the best thing about webbers is reducing transversal. But with TP tracking advantage you do not want to do that. Originally by: Apertotes if your weapons have a higher tracking, then you want to web him to refrain him from using his speed to align to you and minimize transversal speed. Fair point. You can achieve this with pilot skill though. I don't really want to go over the TP suckage again but here are a few points; TP increase sig radius. Tracking is based on sig radius so TP directly affect tracking. Note that gun classes are each 3x the signature of the previous class. TP only paint max about <50%. So trying to paint a ship up a size is useless. TP is best used against ships with signatures that are close to the guns shooting at them.(Missiles is another story) And since Missiles is not Minmatar primary weapon I wont comment on that use. ____ "If your not dyin' your not tryin'." "Are you prepared to go all the way, Alexi?" DuGalle
Al Haquis Minmatar Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.08.09 21:06:00 - [13] Op forget it your dont even deserve to fly a huginn. Sometimes i lack faith in somthing sencible will be said in here. Didnt any of you watch the actual alliance tournament? With love from Al Haquis
Testy Mctest	Posted - 2006.08.09 21:22:00 - [14] I disagree that the bonuses have to compliment each other to be good. The Huginn is not a ship for doing stuff to make itself better; it's a ship for helping your mates annihilate things. That being said, there's still no reason to ever, ever mount a target painter unless you're flying with Torp armed people. And even then, it's only really worth it if they're using Rage torps vs battleships. Painters are just not a vialble option for a midslot, and hence having a bonus to them is not viable either. We dont need our bonus changed. It's nice to have something unique. We just need the module changed to be useful, so that the bonus will be useful, too :) Scrapheap Challenge Forums
Al Haquis Minmatar Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.08.09 21:34:00 - [15] Edited by: Al Haquis on 09/08/2006 21:34:00 Sorry to say Testy but i actually have to disagree with the painter issue. With love from Al Haquis
Still Hart Aurora Empire	Posted - 2006.08.09 22:14:00 - [16] After a thorough re-review of the tracking guide, as well as experimenting with numbers in QF and on the tracking guide, I have come to the following conclusion: As long as you have ANY transversal velocity, the TP will increase your DPS against any ships with a smaller sig rad than your guns. It seems to me that the web and TP bonuses are complimentary in this respect. They both improve your tracking significantly. I know from experience that adding a single TP can increase your TRUE dps (not dps according to QF or whatever). _____________________
Imhotep Khem Vortex.	Posted - 2006.08.10 03:20:00 - [17] Originally by: Still Hart After a thorough re-review of the tracking guide, as well as experimenting with numbers in QF and on the tracking guide, I have come to the following conclusion: As long as you have ANY transversal velocity, the TP will increase your DPS against any ships with a smaller sig rad than your guns. Of course this is true, but you need to think about what it really means. Any ship with smaller signature will increase your tracking by the full paint percentage. However, if you hit 1 out of 10, 2 out of 10 which is 100% increase is still neglidgible. And painters only do under 50% bonus. However, consider a ship close to your guns size, but with smaller signature (like a Minmatar ship), the tracking bonus translates almost directly into a damage bonus. Originally by: Still Hart It seems to me that the web and TP bonuses are complimentary in this respect. They both improve your tracking significantly. I know from experience that adding a single TP can increase your TRUE dps (not dps according to QF or whatever). I have run numerous tests as well and do recognize a DPS boost from TP. Im really trying not to have the 'why TP sucks debate again'. I will say though that T1 webbifiers have been known to affect tracking by upto 90% whereas a T2 tricked out maxed skill TP will affect tracking upto about 45%. And to be fair, double your distance doubles the tracking effect so lets say properly used TP can do 90%. Why use a TP on a ship with a long range webbifier??? ____ "If your not dyin' your not tryin'." "Are you prepared to go all the way, Alexi?" DuGalle
Al Haquis Minmatar Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.08.10 13:31:00 - [18] Why use a TP on a ship with a long range webbifier??? So your assault and inty friend can PWN the crap out them faster. With love from Al Haquis.
Alain Josviar Minmatar Dragons Of Redemption Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2006.08.10 15:27:00 - [19] CCP has it all wrong with regards to webbed targets and transversal velocity impacting your gun's ability to track. When your ship is orbiting a stationary target your guns don't move or move very little. For a real world example look at the US Airforce's AC-130H/U gunship. It is a transport plane with an artillery gun stuck out the side. It'll fly in and begin to orbit a target area at whatever altitude and can pluck a driver out of a vehicle with its 105mm artillery gun.
Captin Corsair	Posted - 2006.08.10 15:42:00 - [20] TPs are ok, a bonus to them on a EWAR ship isnt cool tho, and i feel sorry for the minnys...again. Lets lookm at other bonuses: Gall - scram range and damps, loverly combo Amarr - drones (always good) nos and tracking disrupters, also a loverly combo. caldari - jam jam and more jam from that you can see the other recons do get bonuses that compliment each other, and as you can see caldari get double the bonuses the others get but to one type of EW 0.o So how about placeing the minn bonus to TP, and gentley place it in the bin where it belongs, and change the tp bonus to another web bnonus (like web strngth, following the caldari line of bonuses)

GHAY WATCHER	Posted - 2006.08.10 15:48:00 - [21] Are target painters really that pointless even on a huginn?? I was hoping to train for one and after seeing this thread it seems that my previous setup of 2 webbers and 3 tps is considered bad and most people would suggest putting on 5 webbers instead. Has to be said tps are more effective at longer ranges even with the webber range bonus??? Is there really that much lack for support of placing tps on a ship with tp bonuses. I read on another thread someone claimed taht with 3 tps and max skills you could raise a ships sig radius by a factor of 2.73 which sounded very nice. Is this a false statement. If it is true it would seem like an ideal combo dual webber and then blow up his sig so that the larger guns can get nice hits. Anyone who can enlighten me on the viability of the target painters.
Trojanman190 Caldari Everlasting Impact	Posted - 2006.08.10 15:57:00 - [22] Edited by: Trojanman190 on 10/08/2006 15:58:42 Orbit tracking definitly needs to be fixed.... When my tempest orbits a station at 425 m/s and my guns have to attempt to track a target moving 425 m/s boggles the mind.... what are my turrets doing? Maybe there is some strange law of physics that was created [or destroyed...] when the eve gate collapsed. I dont think we need to have any of the bonuses changed in anyway. What we do need is for the turret tracking and transversal speed while orbiting scenario to be looked at. Most of the fixes people whine about are stuff like blasters outdamaging autos at better range... a pure balancing problem. This is just a goofy game mechanic. I think its goofy that after dual webbing a target I have to come to a complete stop or aproach in order to make my guns completely accurate... THEY ARENT FREAKING MOVING!
Cazziel Karjala Inc. Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2006.08.10 16:14:00 - [23] Did you realize that blasters use cap Troijan? If you did I suggest you to think again.
Tachy	Posted - 2006.08.10 16:18:00 - [24] Missiles and drones use no cap neither. --==*-- Even with nougat, you can have a perfect moment.
Agnar Koladrov Gallente Hurricane Corporation	Posted - 2006.08.10 16:31:00 - [25] what was the level of signature bonus wich made TP overpowered when they got first introduced?? It was from before my time. But I remember reading somewhere that it was somthing like 60% to sig radius, though terribly overpowered for missiles it did have a positive effect on turrets. So where would the threshold be, of the TP not being overpowering with missiles and still be more effective when using with turrets?? ________________________________________________ Bring The Stabber in line with the other two versions. Add a fourth low.
Nifel Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.08.10 16:50:00 - [26] Originally by: Agnar Koladrov what was the level of signature bonus wich made TP overpowered when they got first introduced?? It was from before my time. But I remember reading somewhere that it was somthing like 60% to sig radius, though terribly overpowered for missiles it did have a positive effect on turrets. So where would the threshold be, of the TP not being overpowering with missiles and still be more effective when using with turrets?? The reason they were overpowered was because of a bug that came into play when MWDs were activated and the ship in question was painted. Resulted in a sig radius the size of a moon that BS guns had no problem hitting whatsoever. Was ridicilous having BS pwn the living ** out of intys at 30km range :(. "When I die I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my grandpa. Not yelling and screaming like the passengers in his car." RKK Ranking: (MIN14)**
Witch Doctor Contraband Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.08.10 17:08:00 - [27] Huginn and Muninn - there's a reason the names go together. Huginn is also a Tempy's best friend.
Still Hart Aurora Empire	Posted - 2006.08.10 17:52:00 - [28] The problem as i see it is that not many ships have a smaller sig radius than the 125m sig resolution of 720mm Artys. Because of this, TP's are only really useful against logistics, destroyers, frigs (on a cruiser ship which is what we're talking about). Otherwise, they'll help if you have a BS in gang and you're attacking a BC or smaller. It just seems like a very limited advantage. To make the TP more useful, I'd suggest raising the sig resolution on the bigger artys (in all three sizes), while raising the dmg multiplier as well to balance it out. This will make TP's useful against cruisers and down which is where these ships shine anyhow. Of course this will almost force you to use TP's but aren't Rook's almost forced to use ECM etc? As to the web thing, well I plan on using 720's with Quake ammo. Once I have someone double webbed, flying directly away from them (with no speed mod and -14% velocity) is going to take quite a while before I get out of web/scram/gun range. I have no problem with that issue. Besides, with Mr Arazu at my side, the chances of them being able to lock me are slim to none so 0 transversal doesn't bother me. SH _____________________
Xelios Minmatar Rampage Eternal	Posted - 2006.08.10 18:21:00 - [29] Originally by: Al Haquis I was hoping to train for one and after seeing this thread it seems that my previous setup of 2 webbers and 3 tps is considered bad and most people would suggest putting on 5 webbers instead. Has to be said tps are more effective at longer ranges even with the webber range bonus??? Don't be surprised if you're called primary in any kind of gang, and with the crappy 3 low slot tank you'll likely die fast. The min recons have their uses, but they're fairly limited. I'd take just about any other recon before a min one, and I've been flying minmatar since beta. My real problem with them is their lack of durability. They're obviously built for gang support, much more so than gallente or amarr recons, yet they lack a decent tank, enhanced resists or increased hit points. As a result they die... fast. As soon as the enemy sees it's effective they primary it and wipe it out in no time. Since they are support ships they should be able to survive an engagement long enough to actually lend support. And I'm not talking about ganks here, if you're fighting 1 or 2 guys with a gang of 12 target painters and webs aren't going to make a damn of difference anyway. The new BFG.
Xelios Minmatar Rampage Eternal	Posted - 2006.08.10 18:32:00 - [30] Originally by: Al Haquis I Give up Huginn sucks and no one should fly it ever it plainly sucks and is underpowered and cant kill anything. Please dont buy any of them, and please post alot about how much it sucks. I Have an Idea Why not Fly it and test it out in Combat??????? With love from Al Haquis. It's great that you think the Huginn is the ****, and I bow to your obvious BoB PVP superiority, but the fact is it's possibly the most useless recon out of all the recons. In certain situations it definatly provides an advantage, but those situations are few and far between. Yeah they did great in the tourney, but the tourney has nothing to do with TQ or with normal pvp. Without all that logistics compensating for their lack of durability all they're useful for is ganking some noob 2.3 seconds faster than you could without. The new BFG.



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