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Favouring the few to the disadvantage of many

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Juwi Kotch Gallente VIRTUAL LIFE VANGUARD	Posted - 2006.08.10 15:33:00 - [1] The problem with T2 BPOs is not, that there are only a few them. The problem is, that they are in the hands of only a few pilots. CCP has to realize, that sticking to its original idea and system icreasingly annoyes the 99.9% of pilots, who don't have a T2 BPO, either because they just didn't have luck in the auction, or because they simply came to late. I don't think that anybody would quit the game over this, but it is one bad pea among others, and may be a significant part of someones final decision. With Invention and Reverse Engineering, there is probably a path to solve this situation. I'm only afraid that CCP has not intention to go it. Just make it for instance a requirement that 1,000 research points will be needed to get a 10run T2 BPO. That would only demonstrate, that CCP intends to continue to cater to the few selected. On the other hand, when you would get one run of T2 technology for, lets say 1 RP, the 0.1% of the pilots owning a T2 BPO would produce a big uproar. Some of them have paid billions to monopolize the market! CCP would nerf the assets of a few to the advantage of many. That, in fact, would be a complete turnaround of the present stance. But we all can hope... I'm curious, how this will all come out. Juwi Kotch
Ed Gein Corsets and Carebears Whips and Chains	Posted - 2006.08.10 15:34:00 - [2] I highly doubt it will be that costly.
Tachy	Posted - 2006.08.10 15:43:00 - [3] 1 run T2 ammo BPO = 5000 shots/missiles 95% of the T2 BPO are not exactly more profitable than T1 stuff. T2 needs a lot more hauling around than T1. --==*-- Even with nougat, you can have a perfect moment.
Larsson7 Minmatar Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.08.10 15:46:00 - [4] Originally by: Ed Gein I highly doubt it will be that costly. Do you really think that 1000 RP for a 10 Run Cerberus BPC would be costly!? I don't ask that as a flame as I would happily pay that
Bhaal Minmatar M. Corp Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.08.10 15:46:00 - [5] Originally by: Juwi Kotch The problem with T2 BPOs is not, that there are only a few them. The problem is, that they are in the hands of only a few pilots. CCP has to realize, that sticking to its original idea and system icreasingly annoyes the 99.9% of pilots, who don't have a T2 BPO, either because they just didn't have luck in the auction, or because they simply came to late. I don't think that anybody would quit the game over this, but it is one bad pea among others, and may be a significant part of someones final decision. With Invention and Reverse Engineering, there is probably a path to solve this situation. I'm only afraid that CCP has not intention to go it. Just make it for instance a requirement that 1,000 research points will be needed to get a 10run T2 BPO. That would only demonstrate, that CCP intends to continue to cater to the few selected. On the other hand, when you would get one run of T2 technology for, lets say 1 RP, the 0.1% of the pilots owning a T2 BPO would produce a big uproar. Some of them have paid billions to monopolize the market! CCP would nerf the assets of a few to the advantage of many. That, in fact, would be a complete turnaround of the present stance. But we all can hope... I'm curious, how this will all come out. Juwi Kotch Most likely it will be pre-nerfed, and it will cost too many RP's to compete for T2 sales, but will be ok for those who want to build some of their own T2 gear. On the other hand, if the data cores are tradable on the market, you would have some who are dedicated to building the T2 ships for the market by buying up other researchers data cores... So effectively the RP can be exchanged for ISK for those researchers who don't want to get into the building process... I see many a PvP'er doing missions to get an R&D agent to print him ISK over time if this happens... ------------------------------------------------ Current Hobby other than EVE My Hero
Jif Lemming	Posted - 2006.08.10 15:52:00 - [6] Sell GTCs buy a BPO.
Juwi Kotch Gallente VIRTUAL LIFE VANGUARD	Posted - 2006.08.10 15:53:00 - [7] Originally by: Larsson7 Do you really think that 1000 RP for a 10 Run Cerberus BPC would be costly!? It's not about the 1,000 RP. It's about a general strategy to make acquiring T2 BPCs via Invention and Reverse Engineering that costly, that only those who already swim in ISK can actually take advantage from that situation. What would again favour the selected few. I'm wondering, whether this two skills would socialize the T2 market, or if it just would support and strengthen the present T2 monopolies and oligarchies. Juwi Kotch
Umbandar	Posted - 2006.08.10 16:08:00 - [8] don't think reverse engineering is gonna be a path to solve this problem seems RE isn't gonna see the light of day for quite some time (if it hasn't been dropped altogether) what little is said about getting you hands on a tech II bpc copy is gonna come from invention or this mysterious ability to combine tech 1 BPCs to get a tech II BPC
Juwi Kotch Gallente VIRTUAL LIFE VANGUARD	Posted - 2006.08.10 16:18:00 - [9] Edited by: Juwi Kotch on 10/08/2006 16:19:52 Originally by: Umbandar don't think reverse engineering is gonna be a path to solve this problem seems RE isn't gonna see the light of day for quite some time (if it hasn't been dropped altogether) what little is said about getting you hands on a tech II bpc copy is gonna come from invention or this mysterious ability to combine tech 1 BPCs to get a tech II BPC How exactly all this will work out, nobody outside CCP knows yet. Probably even inside CCP they don't have more then a rough idea. I'm quite sure, that I will be able to put my amassed 120k RP to some good use this autumn, or next spring the latest, the question only is: Will it be enough? Can I and all the other pilots with presently useless RPs put the present T2 market barons back to peasant status? Or will the alternative to owning a T2 BPO be that costly in research points, time or ISK, that the barons will just smile about that tiredly, and continue on their domination paths? Juwi Kotch
Bhaal Minmatar M. Corp Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.08.10 16:31:00 - [10] Edited by: Bhaal on 10/08/2006 16:31:48 So my Industrial char gets 236.04 RP's per day in Amarr Starship Eng. It takes a top notch builder 4 days to build a Zealot? (correct me if I'm wrong) 20 Zealot BPO's in game? (is it 10 or 20?) So 20 new Zealot's hit the market every 4 days, that's 1825 Zealot's per year? Lets say CCP says it will take me 5000 Rp's to build one Zealot. That meanes I can build 17 Zealot's year. Not enough to compete with a BPO holder who can make 91 per year. But how many players are researching Amarr Starship Engineering? 100's or 1000's? If it's 100, that means the Zealot supply will go from 1825/year to about 3525/year. But what if there are 1000 players who want to do this? That would kill the Zealot market for the BPO holders. The number of BPO's is static, but the number of potential "Inventors" could be anything... I think the RP's required would have to be dynamic, otherwise the market could get flooded, and HAC's would be selling at mineral cost... What I'm getting at is the number of T2 BPO's should not have been static, and the number of RP's used in inventing cannot be static either... Somehow the market has to balance itself out without CCP having to babysit it all the time... ------------------------------------------------ Current Hobby other than EVE My Hero

Buxaroo Quantum Industries Prime Orbital Systems	Posted - 2006.08.10 16:33:00 - [11] Reverse Engineering was one of the only good things about Star Wars Galaxies. It was what kept me interested in the shipwright profession so much that I went out and created a new account for it before the NGE hit. Nothing was more cooler than trying to find the absolute best modules out there and RE'ing them and making the best mods available in the game. If EVE instituted something like this, imagine the REAL trading and uber setups you could get! A large armor rep that does 1500 HP whilst only using 100 cap.....imagine the possibilities and the amount of isk that a ship or mod builder would make. Imagine the economics and the all the stuff that would coem with it. It was one of the only things good about SWG. Made things interesting. I can see in my mind multiple skills associated with RE and building mods with attributes that are variable. I beleive it would fit into the EVE economy and community QUITE nicely. I can see instead of clothes with CA's attached to them to give better experimentation bonuses that you can aquire implants with these kind of attributes. It's workable. Any of you ex-SWG guys know what I am talking about? Imagine SW profession instituted into EVE.....then I would REALLY get my alts into the manufacturing part of eve.
Southern Kros	Posted - 2006.08.10 16:34:00 - [12] Originally by: Juwi Kotch The problem with T2 BPOs is not, that there are only a few them. The problem is, that they are in the hands of only a few pilots. CCP has to realize, that sticking to its original idea and system icreasingly annoyes the 99.9% of pilots, who don't have a T2 BPO, either because they just didn't have luck in the auction, or because they simply came to late. I don't think that anybody would quit the game over this, but it is one bad pea among others, and may be a significant part of someones final decision. With Invention and Reverse Engineering, there is probably a path to solve this situation. I'm only afraid that CCP has not intention to go it. Just make it for instance a requirement that 1,000 research points will be needed to get a 10run T2 BPO. That would only demonstrate, that CCP intends to continue to cater to the few selected. On the other hand, when you would get one run of T2 technology for, lets say 1 RP, the 0.1% of the pilots owning a T2 BPO would produce a big uproar. Some of them have paid billions to monopolize the market! CCP would nerf the assets of a few to the advantage of many. That, in fact, would be a complete turnaround of the present stance. But we all can hope... I'm curious, how this will all come out. Juwi Kotch Here we go. Another guy who didn't get a Tech II BPO so I am going to post a thread about it. I don't do high level complex's, I don't hunt in 0.0, I don't mine the rare minerals. I decided to invest in R&D skills and thankfully have made a nice amount of ISK from my R&D agents. Sure I had a slice of luck but 8mil SP's in Science took time and ISK to get the skills and time and ISK to get the standings. Maybe I could have made lots more mining Mega/Zyd or camping a level 10 complex's. It may have been more fun as well. Are you the type of person who buys a lottey ticket and has a moan if your numbers don't come up. Get a life, move on and get over it. Reverse engineering may actualy put prices of Tech II stuff up as people try to blow the items up to get the bits they need. Early days. ----------------------------------------- Just a forum alt for a 38mil SP carebear character. Hey, its safer this way.
PeeWee Pee	Posted - 2006.08.10 16:37:00 - [13] whine baby whine
Plutoinum German Cyberdome Corp Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2006.08.10 16:39:00 - [14] I hope the idea is to balance T2 BPO production vs. invention via the increased production cost for the invention path, not via limiting the production output of it. Then there would really be an upper bound for the prices and a guarantee for reasonal prices. I'd like to see that.
Bhaal Minmatar M. Corp Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.08.10 16:40:00 - [15] Edited by: Bhaal on 10/08/2006 16:40:56 Quote: Are you the type of person who buys a lottey ticket and has a moan if your numbers don't come up. Get a life, move on and get over it. The lottery should never have been implemented in an MMO where ppl pay to play. Risk vs. Reward Hard work leading to positive Results Those are mechanics that belong in a persistant universe MMO, not a lottery where ppl can spend RL cash training a char (which is what we do essentially) who will never benefit from those skills... It was a crap system to start with, and it still is... I welcome the change, and have been lobbying it for some time now... ------------------------------------------------ Current Hobby other than EVE My Hero
000Hunter000 Gallente Dummy Inc.	Posted - 2006.08.10 16:58:00 - [16] well it would be cool if they changed it into a supermarket thingy (where u can exchange ur rp's for X number of runs bpc's, the more rp's u have the better the bpc and the runs) But it still should only be T2 BPC's in exchange for rp's where the chance to win a T2 BPO should still be by the luck of the draw. man that would be very interesting indeed, esp cuz i have like a 100k in rp's scattered over a few r&d agents atm. Banner will be updated shortly
Juwi Kotch Gallente VIRTUAL LIFE VANGUARD	Posted - 2006.08.10 17:15:00 - [17] Originally by: Southern Kros I don't do high level complex's, I don't hunt in 0.0, I don't mine the rare minerals. I decided to invest in R&D skills and thankfully have made a nice amount of ISK from my R&D agents. I did all that too, I have 5 lvl4 R&D agents. When the 3 ship researchers reached approx 40k RP, the last ship BPO was given away, when all together reached approx 80k RP, the last T2 BPO was handed out. I do not whine about this situation. I just state the fact, that the present situation dissatifies everyone but the T2 BPO owners. Majorly. This is at least 99.9% of CCPs customers. It is just not a clever market strategy to keep a game mechanic alive, which favours a few who have been selected, either by luck, by a buggy system (I still do not understand how this many people could win 3, 5, 8 or even more BPOs), or just because they were long enough in game to have amassed enough ISK to just buy what they want. When the T2 items would just be nice to have, that would be no problem. In an PvP environment, where the last edge counts, the usage of this last edge is not an option, but contributes significantly to the result of a fight. Making it possible that distributing this edge will be handed over to a player owned monopoly or oligarchy, is bound to create an upset customer base. At least when these selected few act like they act: creating insane profits, they are just overstretching the bow. As I said, not very clever marketing. And, yes I know, some T2 BPOs don't make anyone rich. But these BPOs are not the problem. Juwi Kotch
Reiisha Frontier Technologies	Posted - 2006.08.10 17:41:00 - [18] Originally by: Juwi Kotch CCP has to realize, that sticking to its original idea and system icreasingly annoyes the 99.9% of pilots, who don't have a T2 BPO, either because they just didn't have luck in the auction, or because they simply came to late. I don't think that anybody would quit the game over this, but it is one bad pea among others, and may be a significant part of someones final decision. With Invention and Reverse Engineering, there is probably a path to solve this situation. I'm only afraid that CCP has not intention to go it. Just make it for instance a requirement that 1,000 research points will be needed to get a 10run T2 BPO. That would only demonstrate, that CCP intends to continue to cater to the few selected. On the other hand, when you would get one run of T2 technology for, lets say 1 RP, the 0.1% of the pilots owning a T2 BPO would produce a big uproar. Some of them have paid billions to monopolize the market! CCP would nerf the assets of a few to the advantage of many. That, in fact, would be a complete turnaround of the present stance. But we all can hope... Some of them also spent a hell of a lot of time on finding good research agents and training research project management to level 5, not to mention running research missions every day. Those are the people who got most of the T2 BPO's - they simply spent enough time on it to deserve it. Those also are the people who could afford to buy more T2 BPO's because of this.
Prof Higgins Galactic Exploration and Mining Corporation SMEG or Dead	Posted - 2006.08.10 18:16:00 - [19] Originally by: Juwi Kotch The problem with T2 BPOs is not, that there are only a few them. The problem is, that they are in the hands of only a few pilots. CCP has to realize, that sticking to its original idea and system icreasingly annoyes the 99.9% of pilots, who don't have a T2 BPO, either because they just didn't have luck in the auction, or because they simply came to late. I don't think that anybody would quit the game over this, but it is one bad pea among others, and may be a significant part of someones final decision. With Invention and Reverse Engineering, there is probably a path to solve this situation. I'm only afraid that CCP has not intention to go it. Just make it for instance a requirement that 1,000 research points will be needed to get a 10run T2 BPO. That would only demonstrate, that CCP intends to continue to cater to the few selected. On the other hand, when you would get one run of T2 technology for, lets say 1 RP, the 0.1% of the pilots owning a T2 BPO would produce a big uproar. Some of them have paid billions to monopolize the market! CCP would nerf the assets of a few to the advantage of many. That, in fact, would be a complete turnaround of the present stance. But we all can hope... I'm curious, how this will all come out. Juwi Kotch I am sure that CCP will try to balance the whole thing to keep TII at a premium while removing the bottleneck of build times that is caused by the limited pool of available BP's. It's that bottle neck that limits availability and so keeps prices inflated really. Hopefully, TII build skills will remain as they are and this whole thing will create the advanced item manufacturer skill path we really need. That will prevent everyone from churning out stuff built from the new BPC's and hopefully create a nice escrow trade in BPC's from mission runners to specialised builders.
Juwi Kotch Gallente VIRTUAL LIFE VANGUARD	Posted - 2006.08.10 18:17:00 - [20] Originally by: Bhaal So my Industrial char gets 236.04 RP's per day in Amarr Starship Eng. It takes a top notch builder 4 days to build a Zealot? (correct me if I'm wrong) 20 Zealot BPO's in game? (is it 10 or 20?) So 20 new Zealot's hit the market every 4 days, that's 1825 Zealot's per year? Lets say CCP says it will take me 5000 Rp's to build one Zealot. That meanes I can build 17 Zealot's year. Not enough to compete with a BPO holder who can make 91 per year. But how many players are researching Amarr Starship Engineering? 100's or 1000's? If it's 100, that means the Zealot supply will go from 1825/year to about 3525/year. But what if there are 1000 players who want to do this? That would kill the Zealot market for the BPO holders. The number of BPO's is static, but the number of potential "Inventors" could be anything... I think the RP's required would have to be dynamic, otherwise the market could get flooded, and HAC's would be selling at mineral cost... What I'm getting at is the number of T2 BPO's should not have been static, and the number of RP's used in inventing cannot be static either... Somehow the market has to balance itself out without CCP having to babysit it all the time... I could just check it, it is more like 3 Zealots in 4 days from a T2 BPO. So to make a dent into that Zealot supply, the requirements for alternative production should not be to high, especially since there are many, many other T2 ships and modules to be build... Juwi Kotch

Prof Higgins Galactic Exploration and Mining Corporation SMEG or Dead	Posted - 2006.08.10 18:25:00 - [21] Originally by: Bhaal Edited by: Bhaal on 10/08/2006 16:31:48 So my Industrial char gets 236.04 RP's per day in Amarr Starship Eng. It takes a top notch builder 4 days to build a Zealot? (correct me if I'm wrong) 20 Zealot BPO's in game? (is it 10 or 20?) So 20 new Zealot's hit the market every 4 days, that's 1825 Zealot's per year? Lets say CCP says it will take me 5000 Rp's to build one Zealot. That meanes I can build 17 Zealot's year. Not enough to compete with a BPO holder who can make 91 per year. But how many players are researching Amarr Starship Engineering? 100's or 1000's? If it's 100, that means the Zealot supply will go from 1825/year to about 3525/year. But what if there are 1000 players who want to do this? That would kill the Zealot market for the BPO holders. The number of BPO's is static, but the number of potential "Inventors" could be anything... I think the RP's required would have to be dynamic, otherwise the market could get flooded, and HAC's would be selling at mineral cost... What I'm getting at is the number of T2 BPO's should not have been static, and the number of RP's used in inventing cannot be static either... Somehow the market has to balance itself out without CCP having to babysit it all the time... This concerns the prof: Everybody does caldari R&D, we already know this. Crow and Cerb BPC's are going to flood the market if CCP aren't careful. If CCP use the most popular races to set the RP / LP for item trade rate then the less researched races might get stuffed. For example few people research minmatar, does that mean the flood of cerbs etc compared to the trickle of vagas will mean the cerb price will drop more than the vaga? I see tears before bedtime if that is the case.
Prof Higgins Galactic Exploration and Mining Corporation SMEG or Dead	Posted - 2006.08.10 18:31:00 - [22] Originally by: Southern Kros Originally by: Juwi Kotch The problem with T2 BPOs is not, that there are only a few them. The problem is, that they are in the hands of only a few pilots. CCP has to realize, that sticking to its original idea and system icreasingly annoyes the 99.9% of pilots, who don't have a T2 BPO, either because they just didn't have luck in the auction, or because they simply came to late. I don't think that anybody would quit the game over this, but it is one bad pea among others, and may be a significant part of someones final decision. With Invention and Reverse Engineering, there is probably a path to solve this situation. I'm only afraid that CCP has not intention to go it. Just make it for instance a requirement that 1,000 research points will be needed to get a 10run T2 BPO. That would only demonstrate, that CCP intends to continue to cater to the few selected. On the other hand, when you would get one run of T2 technology for, lets say 1 RP, the 0.1% of the pilots owning a T2 BPO would produce a big uproar. Some of them have paid billions to monopolize the market! CCP would nerf the assets of a few to the advantage of many. That, in fact, would be a complete turnaround of the present stance. But we all can hope... I'm curious, how this will all come out. Juwi Kotch Here we go. Another guy who didn't get a Tech II BPO so I am going to post a thread about it. I don't do high level complex's, I don't hunt in 0.0, I don't mine the rare minerals. I decided to invest in R&D skills and thankfully have made a nice amount of ISK from my R&D agents. Sure I had a slice of luck but 8mil SP's in Science took time and ISK to get the skills and time and ISK to get the standings. Maybe I could have made lots more mining Mega/Zyd or camping a level 10 complex's. It may have been more fun as well. Are you the type of person who buys a lottey ticket and has a moan if your numbers don't come up. Get a life, move on and get over it. Reverse engineering may actualy put prices of Tech II stuff up as people try to blow the items up to get the bits they need. Early days. No, a few folks discussing what the future holds and discussing how it can be balanced to keep folks like you happy while cheering up the folks who didn't win the lottery. oh, and, Post with your main...
Lygos ISS Navy Task Force	Posted - 2006.08.10 18:51:00 - [23] Maybe the gods just don't like you? You'll just have to see how far your talents will take you. PVP is the same as Business. It isn't reasonable to expect that power or competence will just be given to you. It's not the amount of T2 in the ship that matters in the war, but the warrior in the pilot. It's not the BPO in the corp that makes it rich, but the savvy of its entrepreneurs. If that doesn't work, just remember that Providence helps those that help themselves.
Bhaal Minmatar M. Corp Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.08.10 18:58:00 - [24] Originally by: Prof Higgins Originally by: Bhaal Edited by: Bhaal on 10/08/2006 16:31:48 So my Industrial char gets 236.04 RP's per day in Amarr Starship Eng. It takes a top notch builder 4 days to build a Zealot? (correct me if I'm wrong) 20 Zealot BPO's in game? (is it 10 or 20?) So 20 new Zealot's hit the market every 4 days, that's 1825 Zealot's per year? Lets say CCP says it will take me 5000 Rp's to build one Zealot. That meanes I can build 17 Zealot's year. Not enough to compete with a BPO holder who can make 91 per year. But how many players are researching Amarr Starship Engineering? 100's or 1000's? If it's 100, that means the Zealot supply will go from 1825/year to about 3525/year. But what if there are 1000 players who want to do this? That would kill the Zealot market for the BPO holders. The number of BPO's is static, but the number of potential "Inventors" could be anything... I think the RP's required would have to be dynamic, otherwise the market could get flooded, and HAC's would be selling at mineral cost... What I'm getting at is the number of T2 BPO's should not have been static, and the number of RP's used in inventing cannot be static either... Somehow the market has to balance itself out without CCP having to babysit it all the time... This concerns the prof: Everybody does caldari R&D, we already know this. Crow and Cerb BPC's are going to flood the market if CCP aren't careful. If CCP use the most popular races to set the RP / LP for item trade rate then the less researched races might get stuffed. For example few people research minmatar, does that mean the flood of cerbs etc compared to the trickle of vagas will mean the cerb price will drop more than the vaga? I see tears before bedtime if that is the case. That is why a more dynamic & robust system is required. In any event, it will be interesting to see how CCP handles it... ------------------------------------------------ Current Hobby other than EVE My Hero
dantes inferno Caldari Rampage Eternal	Posted - 2006.08.10 19:04:00 - [25] i wish people would stop moaning about the tech 2 lottery,..personaly i have the following gallente starship enginering: 1 @ 60k, 1 @ 40k, 1@ 30k rocket science: 1 @ 13k high energy physics: 1 @ 9k Caldari starship enginering: 1 @ 30k ive had one bpo worth 1.4 bill isk while at 8k...but when going into R&D i fully understood it was a lottery, and just because i dont win all that i want to..there is no reason to cry about it. eventyualy the RE and invention will hopefuly balance it out to a point where prices go down without breaking the market. But until these features are implemented and we know what they will be like..its a waste of time to cry and lamente about it, especialy as this has to be post 500000000 by now. _____ They were monsters. They rode across the world we knew and brough terror, and death. Where they were, life ceased. They were without mercy. They were without fear - They were MASS
Juwi Kotch Gallente VIRTUAL LIFE VANGUARD	Posted - 2006.08.10 19:19:00 - [26] Edited by: Juwi Kotch on 10/08/2006 19:19:57 This thread is not about lamenting the lottery, that had only contributed to the situation as it is, to more or lesser extend. It's about the fact, that nobody is happy with the situation as it is, except the few lottery winners. It's about the chance CCP has opened with introducing alternative paths to build T2 items and ships with the coming expansion. It is about the question, whether CCP will do it good enough. It's about the fact, that CCP would do itself bad service, when it would cater to the 0.1% players who own or profited from a T2 BPO win, rather then the 99.9% who didn't. Juwi Kotch
Khatred Lacuna Viators	Posted - 2006.08.10 19:24:00 - [27] Vienese whiner? _______________________________________________ Every time you whine a little HAC is destroyed. Please think of the little HACs
Azrael Bierce Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2006.08.10 19:30:00 - [28] They should just get rid of t2 bpo limits really. Each week X bpos are randomly selected from the pool, they are automatically seeded in the appropriate research fields, and the lotto runs. Just get rid of the artificial "There can be only 4 Vagabond BPOs in the universe!" limitation and the whole thing would be improved. New guys still have a chance at the lotto, old guys still have their massive pile of RPs to have a better shot, and research still has a purpose beyond waiting for Kali.
Bhaal Minmatar M. Corp Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.08.10 19:44:00 - [29] Originally by: dantes inferno i wish people would stop moaning about the tech 2 lottery,..personaly i have the following gallente starship enginering: 1 @ 60k, 1 @ 40k, 1@ 30k rocket science: 1 @ 13k high energy physics: 1 @ 9k Caldari starship enginering: 1 @ 30k ive had one bpo worth 1.4 bill isk while at 8k...but when going into R&D i fully understood it was a lottery, and just because i dont win all that i want to..there is no reason to cry about it. eventyualy the RE and invention will hopefuly balance it out to a point where prices go down without breaking the market. But until these features are implemented and we know what they will be like..its a waste of time to cry and lamente about it, especialy as this has to be post 500000000 by now. I'm very happy for you that you love the lottery... Good for you! I hate it, and will continue to whine about it until I hate it less... If no one cried about it, we probably would not be getting inventions in Kali1, and not having this discussion... You ALWAYS have the option to not read the whining, maybe you need to exercise that option more often... ------------------------------------------------ Current Hobby other than EVE My Hero
Khatred Lacuna Viators	Posted - 2006.08.10 19:55:00 - [30] Originally by: Bhaal You ALWAYS have the option to not read the whining, maybe you need to exercise that option more often... That's pretty hard for anyone Bhaal, you pretty much whine in any thread available _______________________________________________ Every time you whine a little HAC is destroyed. Please think of the little HACs

Bhaal Minmatar M. Corp Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.08.10 19:58:00 - [31] Edited by: Bhaal on 10/08/2006 19:58:27 Originally by: Khatred Originally by: Bhaal You ALWAYS have the option to not read the whining, maybe you need to exercise that option more often... That's pretty hard for anyone Bhaal, you pretty much whine in any thread available I disagree, there are way more threads I ignore than engage in... I'm not Dark Shikari or that HippoDude who has to post in every possible thread... ------------------------------------------------ Current Hobby other than EVE My Hero
Nicoli Voldkif	Posted - 2006.08.10 20:18:00 - [32] Originally by: Prof Higgins Originally by: Bhaal Edited by: Bhaal on 10/08/2006 16:31:48 So my Industrial char gets 236.04 RP's per day in Amarr Starship Eng. It takes a top notch builder 4 days to build a Zealot? (correct me if I'm wrong) 20 Zealot BPO's in game? (is it 10 or 20?) So 20 new Zealot's hit the market every 4 days, that's 1825 Zealot's per year? Lets say CCP says it will take me 5000 Rp's to build one Zealot. That meanes I can build 17 Zealot's year. Not enough to compete with a BPO holder who can make 91 per year. But how many players are researching Amarr Starship Engineering? 100's or 1000's? If it's 100, that means the Zealot supply will go from 1825/year to about 3525/year. But what if there are 1000 players who want to do this? That would kill the Zealot market for the BPO holders. The number of BPO's is static, but the number of potential "Inventors" could be anything... I think the RP's required would have to be dynamic, otherwise the market could get flooded, and HAC's would be selling at mineral cost... What I'm getting at is the number of T2 BPO's should not have been static, and the number of RP's used in inventing cannot be static either... Somehow the market has to balance itself out without CCP having to babysit it all the time... This concerns the prof: Everybody does caldari R&D, we already know this. Crow and Cerb BPC's are going to flood the market if CCP aren't careful. If CCP use the most popular races to set the RP / LP for item trade rate then the less researched races might get stuffed. For example few people research minmatar, does that mean the flood of cerbs etc compared to the trickle of vagas will mean the cerb price will drop more than the vaga? I see tears before bedtime if that is the case. This is the response to these that I love. the "Someone will want to get a cut in the 1000% profit margin that others have." srry did some math to see what it would cost me to build a cerberus off a unresearched BP with no industry skills involved. Total cost 45,331,500isk minus factories, now compared to the market value of 230mil I'd have to say that the current market has too little supply based off of the 407% mark up. So yes you will see alot of people attempting to make Cerberus BPCs in order to get on the action and yes it will drop the cost. End result the items that are WAY overpriced will have to start dealing with the the new BPC competition which may make them more affordable to more people and more worth usefull to more people. As for the the low profitable welll if they aren't profitable then why waste invention resources that isn't going to either make me money or save me money. I think the system inherently balanves itself as the T2 items which are undersupplied will be the items that will have the most BPC inventions made for them and will notice the biggest reduction in price.
Matori Kar	Posted - 2006.08.10 20:20:00 - [33] Disagree. I do not think the problem is that T2 BPOs are concentrated in a few hands, that is to be expected given the economic realities that that limit creates in EVE, it is too be expected, can't blame people for wanting to own a monopoly, I sure as hell wish I owned all the T2 cap recharger BPOs I belive the problem lies in the limited amount of BPOs, T2 production relies on materials created in moon mining POSs .. if the T2 BPOs were seeded to market, the strangle hold on T2 production would be the provision of raw materials to the market - alliances in 0.0 will have the lions share of materials, while it may well encourage more ppl to mover into low sec/0.0 in order to capitalize on the 'new' demands of industrialists. Would give a whole new angle on POS wars and ganking industrials [CCP would need to make sure there were sufficient minable moons in low sec though]
Prof Higgins Galactic Exploration and Mining Corporation SMEG or Dead	Posted - 2006.08.10 20:22:00 - [34] For heavens sake pls read the thread before claiming whine. What is being discussed here is probably more important to those who do hold TII BPOs. In theory CCP should be able to introduce enough new bpc's or whatever to allow small scale TII production to those who don't currently hold bpo's. Thats cool, removes some of the whines about prices, maybe removes some profit but oh well. They could make a pigs ear of the whole thing and blow the advantage in holding a BPO out of the water. That isn't cool, assets crash in value overnight... They could make a mess of it and not create an inbalance between the number of racial bpc's or items coming into the pool. Once again that wouldn't be cool either as you might end up with a situation where the most popular racial trees end up cheapest. In that scenario the highest valued TII BPO's might devalue the most, nasty.
Anasur	Posted - 2006.08.10 20:58:00 - [35] The market should adjust over time. If Cerb prices drop and zealot prices stay high, people will start researching for Zealots. Lots of people will research invuln IIs, not as many lower priced stuff. It will work out. And considering the amount of money many of these T2BPOs have generated by now with 500% markups, I have to say I have little sympathy for massive price drops:)
Nanobotter Mk2	Posted - 2006.08.10 23:33:00 - [36] "This concerns the prof: Everybody does caldari R&D, we already know this. Crow and Cerb BPC's are going to flood the market if CCP aren't careful. If CCP use the most popular races to set the RP / LP for item trade rate then the less researched races might get stuffed. For example few people research minmatar, does that mean the flood of cerbs etc compared to the trickle of vagas will mean the cerb price will drop more than the vaga? I see tears before bedtime if that is the case." Oh well then boo hoo, isn't that what the BPO holder's say now? Market forces are what they are supply and demand... So what cerebus will finally be dirt cheap if everyone makes them, and then people will move to make any other over priced ships to make money and it will eventually balance out for the most part. Funny how the only time market forces are used as an excuse is when the people making the money are making the money.
Southern Kros	Posted - 2006.08.11 00:29:00 - [37] Tech II stuff is special. Some BPO's are more special than others. I have 18 Tech II BPO's, some won some purchased. Only 2 are in production 24/7 and bring in an income (profit) of around 900mil/week. The other 16 are different. One has not been in production for a year, another only goes into production every 2 months and I alternate the ammo as there are so many ammo BPO's there is too much production and not enough demand but I live in hope. I also have to produce components for the BPO's, over 2 accounts I run 18 factories. My total profit on Tech II stuff is around 1.1 Bil week and I play for around 20-25 hrs a week. I wonder how much I could make rat hunting, Complex'ng, missions or 0.0 mining with 2 40mil SP characters. Both my main characters now have over 40mil SP's each. I am sure that had I invested my science/industry skills into combat I would be able to make a similar amount chaining rats in low sec or doing the high level complex runs. However I took a gamble and it paid off as I knew Tech II was going to be an exclusive market. Many folks do the same for the exclusive named loot/bpc's in missions and complex's. I hear moans about a named rat not dropping something uber, I guess rat loot is like a lottery, some you win some you lose. Have you seen the price of the named loot? Much more expensive than some tech II stuff and a lot more fun in getting it. With hindsite I wish I had taken a different path and trained combat. Life is actually quite dull making all this stuff and having no action. But the corp I am in benifit from the ISK as I never seem to hold on to it for long. For those that wonder why I post with an alt, its simple. There are a lot of nasty people who want what I have and would war dec a good corp to get it. Why should my luck and sacrifices make me and the corp targets so that some lame ganker can try and steal or imtimidate us. The ironic thing is, had I chosen a differnt path, I may have become that lame ganker, proberably poor, but having more fun. PS If Tech II items become cheaper due to the release of BPC's then can CCP please release some faction loot BPC's because it would only be fair would it not? After all only a few people have access to these and and they should nerf the assets of the few to the advantage of the many. ----------------------------------------- Just a forum alt for a 38mil SP carebear character. Hey, its safer this way.
Anasur	Posted - 2006.08.11 00:58:00 - [38] Sorry, you make a billion a week and it sounds like you are *****ing, lol.
Jonis Sinmaker Valiant Retirement Home	Posted - 2006.08.11 01:07:00 - [39] Edited by: Jonis Sinmaker on 11/08/2006 01:14:19 do you know how long you would have to rat in 0.0 to make a billion a week...At my peak I made about 200 mil a week and as far as the named loot...so many people rat and mission *** that the loot ain't as expensive as it used to be plus the fact that unless you live in a good ratting area in 0.0 you ain't making sqwatt... boohoo you only make a bil a week.... any other great words of whine before we dub you the grand loser of eve? Even better yet I'll trade you accounts even (gear and all) and then see who complains..and I ain't no spring chicken either m8...been around since beta. T2 BPO owners got the I win ATM....the only ones who disagree are the MAJORITY of the BPO holders...now there are a few out there that will just tell you they are filthy rich because they have a T2 BPO and tell youit's their I win ATM ..... They have no problem telling people that they are greedy and don't want to lose their source of income...there is nothing wrong with that. What people are **ed about is the fact the majority of the BPO holds try to bullsh1t people and say that it really does cost 200+ million to make a cerebus or 150 mil to make a vaga....yeah ok. Church it up all you want when push comes to shove you guys are greedy and don't want to lose your income. That's your cup O' tea and how you play the game...just don't be afraid to admit it. Man up...be who you want to be ingame you pay for it...just don't try to blow smoke up the hole to blind people of the truth.
Kenan Waroria Amarr Mad Intelligence and Technology	Posted - 2006.08.11 01:31:00 - [40] Haveing an good T2 BPO = "Scoop isk to wallet" But the differences among BPOs are great, someone told me that Cap recharger T2 gave about 400m+/day not sure how much you can get from other BPOs, but I think that Cerberus gives about 1B/week (probably top 5) so it¦s a big difference between the BPOs. I can only imagine how much a Expanded cargohold T2 would cost if Local hull is sold for about 33m+(?) when comparing to the difference between Eutectic (about 6-8m) and Cap recharger T2 (~23m). The profit is somewhat insane if you look at the time you have to spend building it. But I would argue about the value of 0.0 ratting, are you counting the value from the minerals that you can get from refining loot, if you take the time to collect it? I thought that you could get more than 200m/week.. (if you manage to get an Estamel Invulnerbility field you can laughe all the way to the bank with the 5B+ you can get for it in empire space) -= Think negative and you¦ll get positive surprices =-

Bhaal Minmatar M. Corp Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.08.11 01:31:00 - [41] Quote: If Tech II items become cheaper due to the release of BPC's then can CCP please release some faction loot BPC's because it would only be fair would it not? After all only a few people have access to these and and they should nerf the assets of the few to the advantage of the many. Do you work as a spoksman for Shell Oil or something in RL? Give me a break... 18 T2 BPO's, yeah, you better post that crap with an alt... ------------------------------------------------ Current Hobby other than EVE My Hero
Miri Tirzan Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.08.11 01:32:00 - [42] Well, I have 9 T2 BPOs from the lotter and one I bought, but I would like a way to spend the 300+k RP I have saved up! svetlana - "whining gets you stuff. that is why humans got to the top of the food chain and all the other animals got nerfed."
Bhaal Minmatar M. Corp Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.08.11 01:36:00 - [43] Originally by: Miri Tirzan Well, I have 9 T2 BPOs from the lotter and one I bought, but I would like a way to spend the 300+k RP I have saved up! How you ppl get 8 BPO's from the lottery just shows how broke it is... I have 10 R&D agents between all of my accounts and the only BPO I got was the Shield Boost Amp BPO and that is tech I It's time this silliness comes to and end, and the price gouging with it... ------------------------------------------------ Current Hobby other than EVE My Hero
Ichabod Dirange Iscariot Enterprises	Posted - 2006.08.11 01:52:00 - [44] Originally by: Bhaal Originally by: Miri Tirzan Well, I have 9 T2 BPOs from the lotter and one I bought, but I would like a way to spend the 300+k RP I have saved up! How you ppl get 8 BPO's from the lottery just shows how broke it is... I have 10 R&D agents between all of my accounts and the only BPO I got was the Shield Boost Amp BPO and that is tech I It's time this silliness comes to and end, and the price gouging with it... I predict your whining will end when you get that Titan II BPO. About the Shield Boost Amp BPO, how much?
Choralone Celestial Horizon Corp. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.08.11 02:05:00 - [45] The lottery is an attempt, I suppose, to approximate the uncertainty in any R&D effort. Increasing an R&D budget may increase the likelihood of achieving success, but it doesn't guarantee it. Otherwise, we'd already have the cure for cancer now, wouldn't we? Sure, it's artificial to limit bpo's for a specific item to a pre-defined number. In a future with flesh-and-blood pirates flying about, intellectual property rights don't seem very safe; certainly espionage, kidnappng, and corruption would result in the "duplication" of compromised T2 bpo's (though outright theft would be odd - certainly the owners would have the data stored somewhere as a backup). On the other hand, in my perverseness I think it would be funny if CCP approximated the uncertainty of research by occasionally saying "oops, no one was able to succesfully research this particular T2 blueprint - it's beyond your research efforts and I guess it won't be introduced in game". Harsh, yes, and not much fun for a game, but realistic...
Hallee Amarr The Merch	Posted - 2006.08.11 02:28:00 - [46] I'm not even a manufacturer and I can see the T2 system is broken. Actually, when I saw how the system worked, I just decided not to bother, I am coming back too late to really do anything. Exclusive, limited content does not work for an MMO. It is simply frustrating to newer players to be cut off from doing what they want to do before they've even begun. Really there is little point to making a new industrial oriented character now unless all you want to do with it is mine. You just don't have anywhere to go. I don't know why CCP insists on this system when it's been proven over and over in previous MMO's that limited, exclusive content doesn't work. As for the comparison to ratting. Well that is really silly, rat loot is basiclly available to everyone and given time you will get drops you want or can sell for nice money. The same is not true of T2 BPO's, there is only a limited number (very limited considering the game's population) and once they are handed out, that is it. Someone starting today and wants to rat and do complexes can be assured that once they have the skills and ship they can get on to doing that. Someone starting into manufacturing today may as well re-roll as they have no future to look forward to. The folks making a billion or more a week can cry me a river about how they would be forced into charging reasonable prices because of competition. Their needs do not outweigh the needs of the game as a whole.
Daddy's Princess A.W.M Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2006.08.11 02:48:00 - [47] I just had a brilliant idea. Here it goes: STFU Whiners!!! What do you think? Is that feasable?
Ranger 1 Amarr Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.08.11 03:05:00 - [48] No, not really. I find it amazing how people can completely ignore the reasonable prices that the major T2 dealers charge on their sites (Naga for example), and instead point to the over-inflated prices on the market and claim that's its the producers being greedy. People buy these ships direct, and then resell the for a huge profit. And there is nothing, I repeat, nothing... that keeps anyone that has commented in this thread from doing the same thing. Yes, some people charge a high price for their own production... but most ships and items can be easily purchased for a fair mark up if you are willing to wait. What you do with it after that is up to you. I personally like the new system that seems to be coming in place, it will knock the teeth out of the resellers that are gouging everyone... and I am all for that. And I do believe that the more extreme prices will be balanced out by the new system. But people, really, if you are going to use harsh language at least direct your venom at the correct people.
Dust Angel True Core	Posted - 2006.08.11 03:09:00 - [49] Originally by: Bhaal Originally by: Miri Tirzan Well, I have 9 T2 BPOs from the lotter and one I bought, but I would like a way to spend the 300+k RP I have saved up! How you ppl get 8 BPO's from the lottery just shows how broke it is... I have 10 R&D agents between all of my accounts and the only BPO I got was the Shield Boost Amp BPO and that is tech I It's time this silliness comes to and end, and the price gouging with it... Trade u shield boost amp for 50mm plate II bpo _____________________________________ Stressed out with empire politics? Sansha's Nation helps clear your mind.
Prof Higgins Galactic Exploration and Mining Corporation SMEG or Dead	Posted - 2006.08.11 07:42:00 - [50] Originally by: Nanobotter Mk2 "This concerns the prof: Everybody does caldari R&D, we already know this. Crow and Cerb BPC's are going to flood the market if CCP aren't careful. If CCP use the most popular races to set the RP / LP for item trade rate then the less researched races might get stuffed. For example few people research minmatar, does that mean the flood of cerbs etc compared to the trickle of vagas will mean the cerb price will drop more than the vaga? I see tears before bedtime if that is the case." Oh well then boo hoo, isn't that what the BPO holder's say now? Market forces are what they are supply and demand... So what cerebus will finally be dirt cheap if everyone makes them, and then people will move to make any other over priced ships to make money and it will eventually balance out for the most part. Funny how the only time market forces are used as an excuse is when the people making the money are making the money. Yeah, and the granularity of the balance time will be so quick what with the averge speed you earn RP's in. Not to mention the whole grind for standings and skills to start a new agent.....

Wild Rho Amarr Imperial Shipment	Posted - 2006.08.11 07:56:00 - [51] The new system will create a semi flexible supply, somthing which has been lacking and made the price gouging on SOME (note: SOME not ALL) t2 possible. The real beauty of this new system is that becuase the flexible segment of the supply (bpcs from reverse engineering) still costs more to produce the items than the fixed supply (the bpo owners) that having a t2 bpo can still be profitable. When supply is low and the prices on items increase people will begin to invest their rps into the bpcs for that item in order to take advantage of the better profits. As this happens, supply will start to increase again and the prices will drop back to a reasonable margin again. Once this happens people will see there is little to no profit to justify throwing away rps and so the supply reduces again. This cycle will keep repeating over and over again preventing the market becoming over supplied and making a t2 bpo useless but it will prevent the cartels and price gouging we are seeing on a small number of t2 items/ships. T2 will still be relatively expensive over it's t1 counterpart but we won't see some of the silly prices on some mods we have today. Infact the only people who loose out with this system are the people who are selling/reselling at the inflated prices as this will cut into the profit margins that they've enjoyed. WE ARE DYSLEXIC OF BORG. Refutance is systile. Your ass will be laminated. - Jennie Marlboro
Kanuo Ashkeron Eve Defence Force Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.08.11 08:34:00 - [52] Edited by: Kanuo Ashkeron on 11/08/2006 08:34:38 First of all: The new system is called "Invention" (not Reverse Engineering). The most important fact is, that you would need a build item of the type you want the bpc for. Invention seems to be a little bit different, in the way you don¦t need the item. I think CCP wants to introduce a complex supply chain, where the bpc is the end product. Every item in that supply chain has a rarity. E.g. RP points for data sheets (or whatever) are only gained slowly over time. Other ingredients will need access to some 0.0 region. If CCP is lucky, all those items are hold by different people and so the cost of one bpc will increase dramatically (if you know that your item is the ingredient of a hac bpc you would ask yourself, why shouldn¦t you get a piece of that cake?). The point is: Invention will level the supply of high demanded items (like HACS). The only question is, how easy or difficult it will be to invent a bpc. But I doubt that even CCP know the details about that. So any discussion about that is only good if examples and actual implementations are assumed. Kanuo
Hertford Ars Caelestis Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.08.11 08:37:00 - [53] There are two types of people in EVE: Those with T2 BPOs, and those who think the T2 BPO situation is ridiculous.
Bhaal Minmatar M. Corp Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.08.11 11:00:00 - [54] There are two types of people in EVE: Those with T2 BPOs - Golden horseshoe up their ass Those who think the T2 BPO situation is ridiculous - CCP's big* up their ass ------------------------------------------------ Current Hobby other than EVE My Hero
Fracking Beach	Posted - 2006.08.11 11:46:00 - [55] Originally by: Daddy's Princess I just had a brilliant idea. Here it goes: STFU Whiners!!! What do you think? Is that feasable? So, Southern Kros is your alt?
Southern Kros	Posted - 2006.08.11 12:11:00 - [56] Originally by: Fracking Beach Originally by: Daddy's Princess I just had a brilliant idea. Here it goes: STFU Whiners!!! What do you think? Is that feasable? So, Southern Kros is your alt? I am not a subtle as Fracking Beach but he does have a good idea Ever since the lottery for Tech II BPO's started those that didn't get a bpo have never stopped moaning. Most of them went for the greedy option of starship engineering hoping to get the uber BPO, but the sensible ones spread their research over many fields, just like me. If the only other way to get a BPO was to go into low sec space, do a level 2000 complex then who would own the BPO. The damn alliances would. I am quite happy in a small corp knowing I have a few things the alliances would like and they are not getting them. So if you don't have a BPO then tough s**t. Get on with it, don't lose any sleep over it, and move on. ----------------------------------------- Just a forum alt for a 38mil SP carebear character. Hey, its safer this way.
Clone runner	Posted - 2006.08.11 12:27:00 - [57] Quote: But I would argue about the value of 0.0 ratting, are you counting the value from the minerals that you can get from refining loot, if you take the time to collect it? I thought that you could get more than 200m/week.. (if you manage to get an Estamel Invulnerbility field you can laughe all the way to the bank with the 5B+ you can get for it in empire space) u can get more than 200mil a week ratting but hes comparing 24hours of ratting compared to 24 hours of playtime the guy with all the t2 bpos is putting in and getting over 1bil. the t2 bpo guy obviously doesnt understand how hard it is to make money when you dont have a license to print it. mentioning some officer mod is just plain silly, do you even know how rare officers are? you could npc for 24hours a week for 5 years and be lucky to see one officer spawn, you would be lucky to even get a faction cruiser or bs in a spawn. nearly all of this officer loot you see beeing sold on the forums comes from the alliances that control the high level complexes, and the money raised from farming them goes towards there alliances fund, ie to buy dreads etc
Boonaki Caldari Suffoco Noctis Atrocitas	Posted - 2006.08.11 12:32:00 - [58] Hope they turn the tech 2 BPO's into BPC's. Fear the Ibis of doom!
Fracking Beach	Posted - 2006.08.11 12:33:00 - [59] Originally by: Southern Kros Ever since the lottery for Tech II BPO's started those that didn't get a bpo have never stopped moaning. Most of them went for the greedy option of starship engineering hoping to get the uber BPO, but the sensible ones spread their research over many fields, just like me. But you have failed to understand OP point: There is no point for anyone at this stage to even TRY to create a R&D character, because there is nothing to win from the lottery anymore. I applaud for you since you have managed to hop on the T2 train so early, that you managed to win many T2 BPO's. Many others would like to enjoy similar career in EVE, but it is no longer an option for them. Do you understand that? With your 1b/week income it's easy to tell everyone else "tough s**t", because you don't want anyone to be able to have a piece of your T2 pie.
Fracking Beach	Posted - 2006.08.11 12:40:00 - [60] Originally by: Clone runner u can get more than 200mil a week ratting but hes comparing 24hours of ratting compared to 24 hours of playtime the guy with all the t2 bpos is putting in and getting over 1bil. the t2 bpo guy obviously doesnt understand how hard it is to make money when you dont have a license to print it. mentioning some officer mod is just plain silly, do you even know how rare officers are? you could npc for 24hours a week for 5 years and be lucky to see one officer spawn, you would be lucky to even get a faction cruiser or bs in a spawn. nearly all of this officer loot you see beeing sold on the forums comes from the alliances that control the high level complexes, and the money raised from farming them goes towards there alliances fund, ie to buy dreads etc Also, setting up those T2 manufacturing jobs and sell orders only takes short while, where as ratting for money is grinding the belts for hours on.

Tomic	Posted - 2006.08.11 13:48:00 - [61] I really do hope that the new kali skills do make hacs go for slightly over mins cost. I'd find it really funny watching the tables turn, instead of these smug bpo owners telling ppl to stop whinging, it will be they who are crying like babies all the way home.
Haniblecter Teg F.R.E.E. Explorer EVE Animal Control	Posted - 2006.08.11 13:54:00 - [62] CCP is fixing it in Kali. Please stop the T2 BPO whines. ---------------------------------------- Friends Forever
Bhaal Minmatar M. Corp Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.08.11 13:58:00 - [63] Originally by: Fracking Beach Originally by: Southern Kros Ever since the lottery for Tech II BPO's started those that didn't get a bpo have never stopped moaning. Most of them went for the greedy option of starship engineering hoping to get the uber BPO, but the sensible ones spread their research over many fields, just like me. But you have failed to understand OP point: There is no point for anyone at this stage to even TRY to create a R&D character, because there is nothing to win from the lottery anymore. I applaud for you since you have managed to hop on the T2 train so early, that you managed to win many T2 BPO's. Many others would like to enjoy similar career in EVE, but it is no longer an option for them. Do you understand that? With your 1b/week income it's easy to tell everyone else "tough st", because you don't want anyone to be able to have a piece of your T2 pie. I was not one of those greedy Starship Engineering researchers either, I was sensible, and I havenÆt got jack from that piece of lottery system in 3 years... Even if I got a T2 ship BPO and was a multi-billionaire, I would still think the lottery sucks... You need to work for rewards in EVE not simply be lucky. Especially with the rewards a high value T2 BPO will bring you... We need more players getting a cut. And every research character in the game needs to be able to work towards that goal and receive some reward, just like every other profession in this game. I look forward to the day you price gouging *****s are crying in your milk... ------------------------------------------------ Current Hobby other than EVE My Hero
Lobster Man VentureCorp CORE.	Posted - 2006.08.11 14:01:00 - [64] Only a few people in the world own diamond mines, and they paid arms and legs for them and can do as they want with them. I support a free market
nahtoh Caldari Bull Industries	Posted - 2006.08.11 14:27:00 - [65] My only problem with tech 2 lottery is yeah 20 copies o the ship BPOs may have been ine when you had what 4 to 8k players on at a time? Now its 25k plus. I really hope invention kicks the tech 2 market in the ass hard. Oh and no I don't have any R&D agents...even invention will probably be passing me by... ========= "I am not saying there should be capital punishment for stupidity, but why can`t we just take the safety labels off everything and let the problem fix its self
Clone runner	Posted - 2006.08.12 00:12:00 - [66] Quote: Only a few people in the world own diamond mines, and they paid arms and legs for them and can do as they want with them. I support a free market only a few people may own diamond mines in real life ,but in real life these people with the diamond mines arent buying up every new invention because they are making millions a week. in eve the couple of hundred people with t2 bpos out of the 120k+ subscribers are making hundreds of millions/billions a week while everyone else isnt making much at all in comparison. wouldnt suprise me when tech3 comes out if these people with the billions from t2 lottery end up beeing the ones who buy them because they are the only ones who will be able to afford any that are sold by people. you cant tell me t2 bpo prices didnt end up artificailly inflated because of the few lucky people who managed to get the first few t2 bpo's. the same is going to happen with t3, the only people who can afford to buy any of the ones sold are the ones with hundreds of billions from t2 bpo lottery. its ridiculous that the few people are going to stay stupidly rich while the majority stays poor because they did not jump on the lottery early enough. in real life there are sa***uards to protect people from monopolys and price fixing for a good reason. i guess its to late for any kind of fix now , i hope CCP have realised there mistake and dont repeat it any future mmo they make.
Juwi Kotch Gallente VIRTUAL LIFE VANGUARD	Posted - 2006.08.12 19:44:00 - [67] Edited by: Juwi Kotch on 12/08/2006 19:45:36 Exactly my point. A very, very small fraction of EVE players profit from this situation, and that immensely. The remaining 99.9% feel that this whole situation is simply unjust. CCP should introduce something, that gives this 99.9% the possiblity to participate in this aspect of the game. With Invention and Reverse Engineering they seem to do this. I am only concerned, that the prerequisites to use this skills/technologies will be set in a way, that the privileged situation of the T2 BPO owners will not be hampered. It is important, that someone can work for coming into a situation, that he could get T2 items out of own effort. Not nessecarily in the amount to start a own trade business from it, just to fill the own needs. And the prerequisites in time, effort, and ISK should be set that way, that one really would need to want to take advantage from this new skills, and not just take it en passant, cause it would be that easy. T2 items should remain rare. But the profits of T2 production must not be handed out to a oligopol of a few players exclusively. This new skills should set in a way, that a dedicated player, who wants to get free from the price dictates of the T2 monopols, will have a chance to achieve that. Juwi Kotch
stoats	Posted - 2006.08.12 20:37:00 - [68] If you don't like T2 prices, don't pay them. They will come down. l2freemarketeconomy
Sorja E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2006.08.12 22:08:00 - [69] Originally by: Southern Kros My total profit on Tech II stuff is around 1.1 Bil week and I play for around 20-25 hrs a week. I wonder how much I could make rat hunting, Complex'ng, missions or 0.0 mining with 2 40mil SP characters. You are not serious, right? You are making 500 millions PER HOUR and yet you don't see how incredibly unbalanced this is? I nearly fell of my chair when reading your post dude, I had to read it twice to convince myself I wasn't dreaming and even now I'm not sure I got you right... this is ridiculous! ____________________ Darko1107 > does anything in ascn space have tech II fittings? Quillan Rage > Iron ships
Khatred Lacuna Viators	Posted - 2006.08.12 22:47:00 - [70] Originally by: Sorja Originally by: Southern Kros My total profit on Tech II stuff is around 1.1 Bil week and I play for around 20-25 hrs a week. I wonder how much I could make rat hunting, Complex'ng, missions or 0.0 mining with 2 40mil SP characters. You are not serious, right? You are making 500 millions PER HOUR and yet you don't see how incredibly unbalanced this is? I nearly fell of my chair when reading your post dude, I had to read it twice to convince myself I wasn't dreaming and even now I'm not sure I got you right... this is ridiculous! I made more than that (actualy around 2 bil per week) from making and selling battleships. I guess that's ridiculous too, right? _______________________________________________ CCP please hold my hand. I suck at Eve and I can't compete with other players in a multiplayer environment.

Sorja E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2006.08.13 00:04:00 - [71] Originally by: Khatred I made more than that (actualy around 2 bil per week) from making and selling battleships. I guess that's ridiculous too, right? It depends if you have to mine for them, if it's just sitting in a station, yes, it's much more than any ratter/mission runner could ever do. ____________________ Darko1107 > does anything in ascn space have tech II fittings? Quillan Rage > Iron ships
Yeihon Eye of the Abyss	Posted - 2006.08.13 06:28:00 - [72] What I think is absolutely fascinating, is the reliance on the "isk" for some of these people to have fun in the game. I understand well and good that T1 is a perfectly viable option for combat, and that T2 is supposed to be "rare". I pay money for this game each month. Yaay for CCP. I like this game alot, but what gets me, is that there is a section of this game that I have no chance of actually accomplishing unless I want to pay 400% markup. The idea that because there are more ships/equipment out there, that the market will crash, and no one will be deep in the pockets, is outlandish. There will simply be more combat with said ships/equipment, and the game will continue, unbroken I want access to some of these ships,via personal access to constructing them or reasonable prices, and I want them because I pay to have them at some point. I do not want to have to have my life exthorted to have access to something that is to some, considered an entertainment, not a job. My experience in most MMOs, is that a good crafting system will keep it popular for a very long time, but that is only secondary to a well crafted whole, and "mostly" EVE is a well crafted whole. But having a section of a crafting system be not just rare, but impossible to reach, is almost sickenig. Having a T2 system that is viable for the everyday yahoo isn't what is needed, but having access to the ability to reach it, is definately important.
Tar Magen Amarr Arx Amarria	Posted - 2006.08.13 11:58:00 - [73] Originally by: Southern Kros Here we go. Another guy who didn't get a Tech II BPO so I am going to post a thread about it. I don't do high level complex's, I don't hunt in 0.0, I don't mine the rare minerals. I decided to invest in R&D skills and thankfully have made a nice amount of ISK from my R&D agents. Sure I had a slice of luck but 8mil SP's in Science took time and ISK to get the skills and time and ISK to get the standings. Maybe I could have made lots more mining Mega/Zyd or camping a level 10 complex's. It may have been more fun as well. You didn't need 8mil SP's. I too received a tech 2 BPO, but I didn't have to spend an inordinate amount of time training or supporting my R&D agent. I mostly just let him work away while I did what I wanted, then one day he has a BPO to give me. I heard that one guy picked up a decent BPO with 23 RPs to his credit. Originally by: Southern Kros Are you the type of person who buys a lottey ticket and has a moan if your numbers don't come up. Get a life, move on and get over it. Except that it's a lottery ticket that just keeps on giving. It's more like winning every lottery thereafter. It's easy to dismiss someone's concern as a moan when things are working in your favor, isn't it? But you can't dismiss me, because I have one, and still think the system is unfair.
Ghoest	Posted - 2006.08.13 15:18:00 - [74] Edited by: Ghoest on 13/08/2006 15:19:59 I think originally T2 BPOs should have been limited to 500-1000 runs each for ships. Maybe 2500-5000 for modules and some very high number for ammo. Wherever you went - here you are.
Crowbiwan Caldari N.A.G.A Corporation	Posted - 2006.12.24 19:57:00 - [75] Originally by: Bhaal It takes a top notch builder 4 days to build a Zealot? (correct me if I'm wrong) way off dude, on an unresearched HAC bpo a top notch builder can build 1 HAC in about 1.5 days, so roughly 4 evry 6 days (mind you these numbers are based on an unresearched print) with a decent PE lvl a specialized builder can spit out a HAC in just over 1 day. so thats almost 5 HAC's per week assuming the builder has logistics inplace to insure the BPO stays in constant production.
Juwi Kotch Gallente VIRTUAL LIFE VANGUARD Confederation of Independent Corporations	Posted - 2006.12.24 20:05:00 - [76] Although I really do despice necroing threads, this is a very interesting example of how earlier discussions are met by later reality. Unfortunately the scepticism of the original poster (happened to be me) has bee proofed to be justified. And for those who haven't seen it, no, I wasn't the necroer... Juwi Kotch
Shirow Miyazaki Amarr Hunter Military Industries	Posted - 2006.12.24 21:12:00 - [77] Great, just as i figured out how the R&D process works, through re-reading the player guide and seeing what people are saying on here, it has become apparent that even trying to enter the research lottery is pointless. Is it really that hard to make headway in R&D? why not just set a couple of research projects going and carry on with what you're normally doing, coming back to it if you get something or are in the area to do an R&D mission to boost it a bit? I was planning on using my mining/production alt to setup some research jobs in amarrian starship engineering and carry on mining and generally carebearing, and just letting it tick over. Should i instead sell the amarrian starship engineering skillbook and train more mining?
Tanis Bastar Caldari Interstitial Incorporated	Posted - 2006.12.25 00:06:00 - [78] Originally by: Reiisha Some of them also spent a hell of a lot of time on finding good research agents and training research project management to level 5, not to mention running research missions every day. Those are the people who got most of the T2 BPO's - they simply spent enough time on it to deserve it. Give me a break--how hard is it to find good R&D agents? And running the research missions is a joke, if fairly tedious. Moreoever, it sounds like there are many many researchers who did all of this and didn't get squat after two years.


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