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Varelse Wiggin
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Posted - 2006.08.10 16:37:00 -
[1]
I have seen a lot of complaining concerning the current state of T2 BPOs and the massive monopolies that are held over the items. I personally don't see why a 1mn MWD II should cost nearly as much as it does, considering the construction price is so damn low.
A monopoly is one thing, extorting the players because you got lucky enough to win a lottery or get one from the random T2 BPO pool is another.
While at the moment I am personally unable to undertake this sort of thing, I am still going to propose the idea to whatever mercenary corp or ****ed of group of extorted individuals would like to handle the situation.
A "Trust Buster" group should be formed, one that will work to collect the information on the holders of T2 BPOs that are vastly overpricing their goods and extorting players, such as the few players with the Hammerhead II BPOs. Then this group would go on to wardec those individuals and all of their allies or business associates and lay waste to all of their assets, until the terms of a surrender that will be benficial to the majority of players can be reached.
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Xaroth Brook
Minmatar
Doomcraft
R i s e
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Posted - 2006.08.10 16:40:00 -
[2]
that wouldn't work.. why? because 99% of them sit in a station 24/7 ... war-dec'ing em will change nothing for them...
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Xaroth Brook
Brainiac of Doomcraft
Member of R I S E
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PeeWee Pee
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Posted - 2006.08.10 16:40:00 -
[3]
market economy baby. go back to school or sumthin so you can learn to read and stfu whinner!
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Varelse Wiggin
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Posted - 2006.08.10 16:41:00 -
[4]
 Originally by: PeeWee Pee
market economy baby. go back to school or sumthin so you can learn to read and stfu whinner!
I actually laughed, that coming from someone who can barely form a coherent sentence is ironic to no end. Now if you're not going to be constructive, please...stay out of the thread.
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Varelse Wiggin
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Posted - 2006.08.10 16:42:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Xaroth Brook
that wouldn't work.. why? because 99% of them sit in a station 24/7 ... war-dec'ing em will change nothing for them...
That's why I mentioned their assest and business partners, they get their materials from somewhere...and if a good mercenary corp can infiltrate a corporation, sneak to the upper tiers, and then sabotage the entire thing overnight...i'm certain someone could get ahold of the names of their suppliers and wreck them. Without materials they dont produce. And guys who produce on that scale definately dont have random buy order for minerals, they get set amounts from someone at certain times to keep production consistant.
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Hels Braun
The Merchant Marines
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Posted - 2006.08.10 16:44:00 -
[6]
Hmm... good luck with that.
/me laughs
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PeeWee Pee
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Posted - 2006.08.10 16:47:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Varelse Wiggin
Originally by: PeeWee Pee
market economy baby. go back to school or sumthin so you can learn to read and stfu whinner!
I actually laughed, that coming from someone who can barely form a coherent sentence is ironic to no end. Now if you're not going to be constructive, please...stay out of the thread.
me thinks it be funny someone who cant even form a coherent sentense knowz more about economics than you. my words make sence no doubt they joz be skewed to bypass da word filter. you aint as smart as you think you are. me ownz you in a game with brains. deep****
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Kenz Rider
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Posted - 2006.08.10 16:47:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Varelse Wiggin
While at the moment I am personally unable to undertake this sort of thing...
Just like you, no one cares enough to do anything about it.
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Varelse Wiggin
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Posted - 2006.08.10 16:54:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Varelse Wiggin on 10/08/2006 16:55:29
Originally by: PeeWee Pee
Originally by: Varelse Wiggin
Originally by: PeeWee Pee
market economy baby. go back to school or sumthin so you can learn to read and stfu whinner!
I actually laughed, that coming from someone who can barely form a coherent sentence is ironic to no end. Now if you're not going to be constructive, please...stay out of the thread.
me thinks it be funny someone who cant even form a coherent sentense knowz more about economics than you. my words make sence no doubt they joz be skewed to bypass da word filter. you aint as smart as you think you are. me ownz you in a game with brains. deep****
What in the hell does that mean? You know that Trust Busting was a real thing, right? Done by Teddy Roosevelt to break up extortionist monopolies. A market economy does not mean "extort the hell out of everyone."
And assuming I wasn't currently trapped deep in God-forsaken 0.0 with a rather nasty security status, I would personally undertake this task, with recruited help of course. Perhaps this will have to wait until i've fixed a few things for my character.
By the way, Ali G, the gimmick isn't cute.
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Valan
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Posted - 2006.08.10 16:57:00 -
[10]
Originally by: PeeWee Pee
me thinks it be funny someone who cant even form a coherent sentense knowz more about economics than you. my words make sence no doubt they joz be skewed to bypass da word filter. you aint as smart as you think you are. me ownz you in a game with brains. deep****
Incidentally bypassing the word filter intentionally breaks the rules and used to get a warning. Warnings = ban.
Although I've not seen any warnings for doing that lately. Guess the mods forgot.
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Angry Sheep
Amarr
Aur0ra
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Posted - 2006.08.10 16:58:00 -
[11]
Here's the reason why it wont work - Known T2 holder gets 'trust busted' - so he lowers his price to get you off his back.
People by the low priced stock and put it back on the market at the original if not higher price....
Now your trust busting middle men! - your have a long job
It's a Dog eat Dog World out there and I'm wearing Milky Bone underwear
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Varelse Wiggin
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Posted - 2006.08.10 17:01:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Angry Sheep
Here's the reason why it wont work - Known T2 holder gets 'trust busted' - so he lowers his price to get you off his back.
People by the low priced stock and put it back on the market at the original if not higher price....
Now your trust busting middle men! - your have a long job
Then the market wont change much concerning the sell prices, there is always the one sensible player selling his items for a reasonable price (which would now be the producer who is putting out massive quantities of his item) and then the group of idiots who think someone is going to pay the high price when something much cheaper is available.
People will buy up the cheap stock, and keep buying the cheap stock so long as it exists. And it doesn't matter if individual players are selling individual items that they procure by buying or finding...what matters is that the person who holds the power to produce the item in any given quantity is charging so much.
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000Hunter000
Gallente
Dummy Inc.
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Posted - 2006.08.10 17:02:00 -
[13]
on some items that might be true, but for instance on stuff like T2 ammo and missiles.. i see a lot of people selling those but the price margin between them is usually laughable (aka the keep the price up together?)
for ships it would indeed be hard, unless people would start dumping T2 ships on market en masse (which i don't see happening)
sigh.. to remember the times where a cerb only cost me 76 mill 
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Varelse Wiggin
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Posted - 2006.08.10 17:04:00 -
[14]
Originally by: 000Hunter000
on some items that might be true, but for instance on stuff like T2 ammo and missiles.. i see a lot of people selling those but the price margin between them is usually laughable (aka the keep the price up together?)
for ships it would indeed be hard, unless people would start dumping T2 ships on market en masse (which i don't see happening)
sigh.. to remember the times where a cerb only cost me 76 mill
I dont mean on EVERY T2 item, i'm just talking about the ones that are grossly overpriced like the T2 Hammerheads.
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Xaroth Brook
Minmatar
Doomcraft
R i s e
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Posted - 2006.08.10 17:07:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Varelse Wiggin
Originally by: Xaroth Brook
that wouldn't work.. why? because 99% of them sit in a station 24/7 ... war-dec'ing em will change nothing for them...
That's why I mentioned their assest and business partners, they get their materials from somewhere...and if a good mercenary corp can infiltrate a corporation, sneak to the upper tiers, and then sabotage the entire thing overnight...i'm certain someone could get ahold of the names of their suppliers and wreck them. Without materials they dont produce. And guys who produce on that scale definately dont have random buy order for minerals, they get set amounts from someone at certain times to keep production consistant.
you know how easy it is to get minerals n **** if you're inside a jita station? there's hundreds of unknowing people putting **** on auction or filling buyorders, sure, you'll slow them down a bit, but the moment you're not looking they'll undock in a freighter and collect the ****ton of items they just bought in the adjacent station...
It sounds like a good idea, but it probably won't work that much...
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Xaroth Brook
Brainiac of Doomcraft
Member of R I S E
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Varelse Wiggin
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Posted - 2006.08.10 17:10:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Xaroth Brook
Originally by: Varelse Wiggin
Originally by: Xaroth Brook
that wouldn't work.. why? because 99% of them sit in a station 24/7 ... war-dec'ing em will change nothing for them...
That's why I mentioned their assest and business partners, they get their materials from somewhere...and if a good mercenary corp can infiltrate a corporation, sneak to the upper tiers, and then sabotage the entire thing overnight...i'm certain someone could get ahold of the names of their suppliers and wreck them. Without materials they dont produce. And guys who produce on that scale definately dont have random buy order for minerals, they get set amounts from someone at certain times to keep production consistant.
you know how easy it is to get minerals n **** if you're inside a jita station? there's hundreds of unknowing people putting **** on auction or filling buyorders, sure, you'll slow them down a bit, but the moment you're not looking they'll undock in a freighter and collect the ****ton of items they just bought in the adjacent station...
It sounds like a good idea, but it probably won't work that much...
You may be right, but it's something that will have to be tested before it can be completely discredited. Maybe an ultimatum would be enough to get one of them to drop their prices to a reasonable level.
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Hizz
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Posted - 2006.08.10 17:12:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Hizz on 10/08/2006 17:14:47
Originally by: Varelse Wiggin
Originally by: Angry Sheep
Here's the reason why it wont work - Known T2 holder gets 'trust busted' - so he lowers his price to get you off his back.
People by the low priced stock and put it back on the market at the original if not higher price....
Now your trust busting middle men! - your have a long job
Then the market wont change much concerning the sell prices, there is always the one sensible player selling his items for a reasonable price (which would now be the producer who is putting out massive quantities of his item) and then the group of idiots who think someone is going to pay the high price when something much cheaper is available.
People will buy up the cheap stock, and keep buying the cheap stock so long as it exists. And it doesn't matter if individual players are selling individual items that they procure by buying or finding...what matters is that the person who holds the power to produce the item in any given quantity is charging so much.
And now you are in the catch-22 of a free market economy that was created in a sandbox MMO. The only rules governing the way T2 BPOs are used are based on the user and supply & demand. Supply is low, demand is High there for Prices will be high. but since it's controlled by players, they have the option of how high the price will be. As long as the supply is selling, the prices won't get much lower. No matter how much you "Trust Bust" a corp or individual into lower prices, someone somewhere will drive the price up on a limited supply. As long as there is a free will as a sole supplier. there will always be a viscious cycle of high prices and low supply. Trust busting will only solve the problem for the imediate time and that will not last close to 1/4 of the time to even execute the trust bust. Things will return back to normal. the only difference maybe that someone else is going to make all the money.
Edited for craptastic grammer
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Maya Rkell
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2006.08.10 17:14:00 -
[18]
It has been tried. Twice to my knowledge.
The first time, the corp which was attacked had NOTING to do with the guy, they actually supplied his rivals and he'd planted the info. This only came out after the destrction of the attacked corp.
The second time, the people attacking were blizted by mercenary corps, and disbanded after massive losses.
Welcome to Eve Economics 101, "they have more ISK and know the game better than you".
Wait for invention/reverse engineering.
There is only ONE situation which CCP need to alter, and that's the T2 covert cloaks ENTIRELY because of the unique T1 -> T2 -> T2 production line involved!
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Avon
Caldari
Black Nova Corp
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.08.10 17:21:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Maya Rkell
There is only ONE situation which CCP need to alter, and that's the T2 covert cloaks ENTIRELY because of the unique T1 -> T2 -> T2 production line involved!
Actually (you may not want to read this bit Maya), I agree.
The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
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Plutoinum
German Cyberdome Corp
Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2006.08.10 17:25:00 -
[20]
Short answer:
- lack of supply due to limited low number of BPOs and long production times
- market prices depend on supply and demand
(think about waiting queues, resellers )
- invention comes in Kali 1.
Long example:
If you put 10 vagabonds for 150 mil isk on the market, they would be gone immediatly. Maybe to a reseller, maybe to some lucky guys, who really want one.
On the other hand there would be hundreds of people, who wanted one for that price, too, but got none. Actually, there would be many, who'd prefer to be able to buy one at a higher price than to get none at all.
The t2 producer hasn't many possibilities:
1) sell under price on the market
- resellers will buy that stuff
- supply doesn't satisfy demand to that price. Customers, who don't get their stuff, because it's sold out, aren't happy
- producer loses income
2) accept orders for a low price and have a waiting queue
- makes some people happy, who don't mind to wait
- makes people unhappy, who'd rather pay more to get the stuff immediately, instead of wating like 2 months for a hac
- producer loses income
Solution for unhappy customers ? Hopefully invention in Kali 1.
P.S.: We should only have one thread, especially because it's one of the topics that pops up every few weeks and almost everything has been discussed to death except the details about the new Kali stuff. 
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Argenton Sayvers
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Posted - 2006.08.10 18:05:00 -
[21]
Even if you get all of eve to rally against the evil t2 producers. They still have something that you dont have. A way to create t2 items. Meaning that if they all get fed up and quit (with accounts prepaid until 2009), everyone will be flying around in t1 ships until CCP implements invention. Which might be around 2009.
You make a huge mistake in thinking the current prices are artificial. Everyone seems to fail to understand how rich eve players got over time.
The current situation is a result of the simple fact that t2 behaves more like deadspace loot then t1. There is a variable supply up until the cap. If you run all complexes 23/7, there is no other way to increase supply besides changing the droprates (done by CCP). That doesnt prevent everyone around you from swimming in ISK after mining, ratting and mission running.
So while supply stays limited, the demand grows, together with the purchasing power of the eve population (call it inflation or increased productivity). This might explain why prices for dreads go down or stay the same despite rising demand (deathstar POS ...), while prices for gist loot goes through the roof.
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