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are macro miners keeping the economy afloat?

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Benglada Central Defiance	Posted - 2006.08.10 20:42:00 - [1] I hate to say it, but it seems to me that the number of actual players that are mining arent providing enough ore/mins to keep the economy afloat, it just seems that people are building a lot more then actual people can provide.... So, are macro miners the people keeping the economy afloat? (im kind of tired and this just kind of popped into my head) Ill probably get flamed for even mentioning macro miner but... --------------------------- Originally by: Wrangler Unfrtinately you dnot get to vote..
Jenny Spitfire Caldari LoneStar Industries Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2006.08.10 20:46:00 - [2] Yes and be thankful. ---------------- Cruelty is God's way of showing kindness.
Benglada Central Defiance	Posted - 2006.08.10 20:47:00 - [3] thats what i was afraid of :S --------------------------- Originally by: Wrangler Unfrtinately you dnot get to vote..
Lardarz B'stard Amarr Out Of Exile	Posted - 2006.08.10 20:48:00 - [4] You make an interesting point, but I don't think its true. There are many many players who still wet their pants at the thought of getting one of those +% mining implant things, and many players who actually enjoy mining for fun, in a group or whatever. (For the record, I did it for a month or more when I started too, but have long since grown out of such foolhardy behaviour) When you are quite new to the game, mining is quite a nice way to spend an evening with your corpmates socially. This is what keeps the economy afloat. Macrominers have an impact, but not as significant one as you suggest. Exiles Recruitment
Andreask14 Sensus Numinis Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2006.08.10 20:48:00 - [5] The economy of EvE cant crash because there is neither a real time-pressure nor the inevitable need for certain goods (like oil in RL). So no, macros are not essential to the game. But they dont hurt one bit either TBH. ________________________________________________ Just a quick reminder that "Local" and "Instas" will always be what they are.
Matori Kar	Posted - 2006.08.10 20:51:00 - [6] This has been suggested many times, I have my doubts it has a huge overall effect, but they may well have some localised effects along the lines you suggest - especially in terms of low end min production in hub areas....but if the macrominers were not there (if indeed they really are in any great number) then I am fairly sure the space would be filled by normal players (and I suspect many of those so called macro miners are just regualar players running several accounts to farm low end mins with as little input as possible).
Guvante GALAXIAN	Posted - 2006.08.10 20:53:00 - [7] That is the nice thing about EVE, there will always be miners, and the market will balance it out depending on what minerals are how common. For instance, Megacyte was supposed to be around 2x the price of Zydrine, but people went and found where to mine it and mined enough to drive demand to around the price of Zydrine. The same happended to Mexallon, it is worth a fraction of its stock price, due to over supply, among other things. So basically, if all of the macro miners were gone, and for some reason they were supplying the market with mineral exclusively, the miners would start mining whatever was needed most, depending on market demand.
Benglada Central Defiance	Posted - 2006.08.10 21:00:00 - [8] Originally by: Guvante That is the nice thing about EVE, there will always be miners, and the market will balance it out depending on what minerals are how common. For instance, Megacyte was supposed to be around 2x the price of Zydrine, but people went and found where to mine it and mined enough to drive demand to around the price of Zydrine. The same happended to Mexallon, it is worth a fraction of its stock price, due to over supply, among other things. So basically, if all of the macro miners were gone, and for some reason they were supplying the market with mineral exclusively, the miners would start mining whatever was needed most, depending on market demand. i remember when tritanium was .86 PU before exodus....it went up due to POS buildings iirc, not enough trit to build POSs so the price of trit went thru the roof as everyone needed lots... ( my memory is hazy might not have been exodus>..) --------------------------- Originally by: Wrangler Unfrtinately you dnot get to vote..
Catjusha	Posted - 2006.08.10 21:03:00 - [9] I used to mine in highsec some time ago, because it was relaxing and more or less rewarding. Then the macroers jumped in and the prices went down. My current focus is on missions now, but the evolution with high sec macroers or sweat shop operations (as they in fact seem to be) and the lack of action CCP takes against them has destroyed my trust that CCP has any desire to quench illegal activites in game. They rather focus on the next expansion with some new fluff TM. Cat ------------------------------------ In its current form, Eve is a paradise for Isk sellers, exploiters and griefers.
Plutoinum German Cyberdome Corp Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2006.08.10 21:11:00 - [10] Edited by: Plutoinum on 10/08/2006 21:12:00 Well, I wouldn't say that they don't hurt anyone. They hurt other high sec miners and newbies, who want to start a mining career in high sec, because they keep the prices for low mins low. Everyone else profits, although 'profits' is relative. It's about balance. If low min prices were so cool, then CCP would shift the balance towards low min prices e.g by increasing the mining yield. So, no, I wouldn't say that macro miners do anything good.

Trina Tron Contraband Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.08.10 21:18:00 - [11] Originally by: Andreask14 The economy of EvE cant crash because there is neither a real time-pressure nor the inevitable need for certain goods (like oil in RL). So no, macros are not essential to the game. But they dont hurt one bit either TBH. We need minerals to build everything in eve ofther then pre-made rat loot and the few ncp things left on the market. You could argue that you could fly around in newbie ships using only rat loot but then you could also take a bike vs drive a car.
Samirol Ore Mongers	Posted - 2006.08.10 21:22:00 - [12] long ago, the top tier cruisers ran fo 8-9 mil, now they have dropped to 6.5 because of the incredible supply of trit out on the market, as well as other base minerals. I don't think they are keeping the economy afloat, but making things cheaper for the actual consumer. This could be compared to outsourcing in the US. Smacktalk Generator
Benglada Central Defiance	Posted - 2006.08.10 21:22:00 - [13] well in the olden days there wasent enough mins on the market for everyone, if you wanted a ship you had to mine for it...but still, who the hell wants to mine for their ship. --------------------------- Originally by: Wrangler Unfrtinately you dnot get to vote..
Ghoest	Posted - 2006.08.10 21:59:00 - [14] Just reading your title its clear you know nothing about economics beyond a few catch words. Wherever you went - here you are.
Galk Gallente Autumn Tactics	Posted - 2006.08.10 22:01:00 - [15] Have you seen the sheer numbers that the icsc uses per week: "As a rough guide, this is what we require in minerals per week, when our production is running at 100%: 1,621,241,888 Tritanium 338,493,176 Pyerite 128,775,528 Mexallon 20,281,296 Isogen 5,888,960 Nocxium 1,027,152 Zydrine 439,936 Megacyte" These numbers blew me away, you gota wonder where it all comes from tbh.... it's not like there the only ones at it either The numbers that you crunch through when building capitals are just insane, iv'e experienced it first hand since i started building them. You know.... i just thank the stars that there's a diverse playing population in this game... those that enjoy mining and ofcourse those that enjoy shoving these valuable commodities around into hubs, in turn keeping the prices stable. You just have to belive that the market get flooded with minerals from the sheer numbers of players that just mine. It's probaly the game you just don't see ______ Long ago one gorgeous night, we let the stars grow free. We let Zhuge do that once, he came back carrying a traffic cone, a forsale sign and three empty bottles of dutch lager. He also lost his Zimmer Frame... - Imaran
Virida Mindstar Technology United Confederation of Corporations	Posted - 2006.08.10 22:29:00 - [16] Also, this game GOT one of the most complex economies who exist in any simulations, or games at all. Nothing is even close to this game wise, specially since the other games who got a good economy model, dont got a GAME outside it and building. nothing. But, if we assume we got a insane number of newbies who casually mines veldspar, and refine rat loot in jita. That makes this economy work. You also got gigantic fleets of miners who oddly seems to wanish every chinese holliday(go figure ), but it lurks omber and kernite miners who seem to have a unusual play style, yea. Not shure it hurt the pvp part of the game, tho, even if the most paranoid fantasy of ebaying is true. So long the lowsec alliances buy minerals, and rats/farms complexes, i see no problem.
Fyarr III Caldari Sea Slug Syndicate	Posted - 2006.08.10 22:29:00 - [17] Do asteroids stop reappearing after a while? That would be interesting. Like that Ice Field crisis. __________________________________
Christopher Dalran	Posted - 2006.08.10 23:00:00 - [18] I dont like the macro miners, I used to mine and make a nice ammount of money off it in high sec but ever since macro mining came around (yes i'm old, since beta) I've switched to doing missions exclusivly. In fact I will not even mine my own minerals and build a ship using a 1 run bpc anymore, i tried it again after coming back but its just far cheaper now just to buy the ships flat out. The only thing i will build are frigates because they pop so easy its nice to just have 10 show up in your hangar, not to mention easier than flying them all back. I warp to belts now and when i get there ....... there is not even a sigle veldspar, the belt is COMPLETLY EMPTY.
Zaldiri Caldari Automated Industries	Posted - 2006.08.10 23:28:00 - [19] Macro miner hardly support the economy, they keep low end mineral prices down, that is all. However this cuases hardship for other low end mineral miners. ----------------------------------------------- Admiral of King Frieza's Super Saiyan fleet.
Makaylah Caldari Infinite Technologies	Posted - 2006.08.10 23:32:00 - [20] Edited by: Makaylah on 10/08/2006 23:35:17 The more people look down on mining 'carebears', laugh at them, shoot them and then laugh at them some more AND tell them to leave Empire cause it sucks, the less minerals are around for a reasonable/low price. Simple as that really :) Also because people get richer and buy more and bigger ships, then get them blown up and buy some more increases the need for minerals ---------- Trading is my game, if you need something contact me.

Antiochus	Posted - 2006.08.11 00:20:00 - [21] actually, we are hitting the respawn rate on the "high end" low end ores, like those that provide isogen, which has gone up in recent months, due to omber and pyrite being the best targets in concord protected space. In theory, we should be hitting respawn on the next step down of ores, but there are more systems with those ores, so less likely. So in the end, the macroers are making it better for empire miners, assuming they can still find the ore to mine it. Rogue slace traders 2 of 2 anyone?
Merenghi	Posted - 2006.08.11 00:29:00 - [22] Edited by: Merenghi on 11/08/2006 00:28:40 I can tell you one thing, if all macro-miners stopped mining ice tomorrow, POS fuel would easily flatten out at 2-3 times it's current price.
Skraelingz Gallente Gallente Federal Bank	Posted - 2006.08.11 05:10:00 - [23] Edited by: Skraelingz on 11/08/2006 05:14:01 Edited by: Skraelingz on 11/08/2006 05:11:24 macro miners need to find a cliff to jump off of. Some of us CANT mine stuff where there are rats yet, these jokers in barges strip .8 and higher clean it just drives me nuts. heck at yulai right now (1.0) you cant find a single asteroid all these guys have done is take barges and just strip the entire set of belts clean. -----------------------------------------------
Epislona Minmatar Babylon Scientific and Industrial Enterprises Babylon Project	Posted - 2006.08.11 05:23:00 - [24] It is possable that macro miners keep the trit, pye, mex prices low(er), also ice. but it is silly to think that the market would collapse if all macros stopped mining. instead there would be a shift to the left in the supply curve, causeing the price at the equalibrium point to rise, potentially a significant ammount (i leave it to you to determine what i mean by "significant") Ultimately the price would level out and the Demand for low end minerals would be met. it is likely that some poeple would actually see the high(er) prices of trit, pye, mex, and ice and their eyes would light up and their brain would say "cha-ching... easy money" instantly more miners... fewer people blowing up ships, or building them.... What it comes down to is that the Economy of EVE is much more complex than you imagine... and if all the people macromining were banned today for violations of their TOS then the economy would adjust... prices might change, but it wouldn't be the end of the world... just a change. "You Are Not Special"
Tachy	Posted - 2006.08.11 07:32:00 - [25] Many mission runners would just dedust their mining ships and go back if mining was more profitable. --==*-- Even with nougat, you can have a perfect moment.
Novarei The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc.	Posted - 2006.08.11 07:33:00 - [26] Originally by: Benglada I hate to say it, but it seems to me that the number of actual players that are mining arent providing enough ore/mins to keep the economy afloat, it just seems that people are building a lot more then actual people can provide.... What data are you acting on? link?
DOTA	Posted - 2006.08.11 07:35:00 - [27] OH teh noes, Beng is playing forums again.
Mirasta Caldari Enigma Enterprises Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2006.08.11 08:02:00 - [28] I think macroers are the casue of the insurance payout 'Problem'. They are making ships too cheap to build these days and its hard squeesing a profit out of anything battleship sized. I dont think there breaking the market but i think they are cauing a nock on effect to other in game things. Oh and they steal all the kernite :( (if i mined kernite i would care)
Sulavan	Posted - 2006.08.11 08:49:00 - [29] Basically, the answer is no. The laws of supply and demand dictate that: if there were no macro miners the price of minerals would rise. With the rise in the cost of minerals, so does the "profit" from mining. With the rise in profit comes the attraction to supply (players are attracted to mining due to the return on time invested). Thus Supply stabilises with demand. Currently the flood of supply into the market forces the price of minerals to be low, this is maintained because the opportunity cost for a macro miner is far lower than an honest player, therefore they can accept a lower rate of return. If macro miners were completely removed, there would be a temporary shortage in minerals and so a hike in prices across the board (but this would be tempered by the markets ability to pay and I suspect many costs would absorbed by the currently over inflated T2 market). Manufacturers would then be willing to pay higher prices for minerals (that or face going out of business) and so more people would be willing to get into mining due to its rate of return.
kirjava Caldari	Posted - 2006.08.11 23:22:00 - [30] Well I think this point is valid. For instance let us take a look at ice. It is a long, boring, and you need to invest in the skills for a mining barge to get this. By all rights ice and fuel for POS/capital ships should be very steep, but because of empire macrominers, it is low. The macroers are are scrutenised and hated for being there, yet the entire (probably) POS fuel is done this way. We hate it, yet are unknowingly dependant on it. Who WANTS to ice mine? Note this is not in support in macro-miners, but people want cheap stuff, look at where your clothers are made and wonder what the minimal wages are like there for most of the stuff? The shirt I am wearing was made in Sri Lanka.

Norma Stitz	Posted - 2006.08.11 23:32:00 - [31] a) My alt can mine a BS worth (ú) in a few hours. (0.0) b) Loads of guys come home from work, open a beer and mine in 0.5+, while having a laugh with corpmates. Don't get paranoid about macro miners. Many real players take great pride in the amount of ore they can move. Real players will do beter than macros.
kirjava Caldari	Posted - 2006.08.11 23:36:00 - [32] I agree, I am a Hulk pilot myself, but its the bits of the econemy that people dont want to work in. Sure we winge about trit being pointless mining because of the macros, but would we complain about ho much ships costed because of low end input if they werent there?
Nathan Grey Gallente Agony Unleashed	Posted - 2006.08.12 01:45:00 - [33] Trit is one of those interesting minerals, because you damn near can't do anything without it. It's also common as dirt, so you end up with all sorts of fun economic factors popping up, like location, distence, shipping costs, and relatively localized burn rates... ...but I digress. Macro miners are merely supplying large quantities of tritanium and pyerite into an economy that happily burns both, thus keeping the prices down. If they stop, the economy would correct itself, and the price of tritanium would rise. Basic supply and demand economics. As it stands, the price of trit varies from 1.8 to 2.4 in various areas. It's come to my attention that it's almost worthwhile to drag a Megathron out w/ MDCMs and MD2s and suck up trit to the tune of about 5M isk/hr while watching p- er, movies. Because as the price of trit goes up from the 1.2 that it's been at time closer towards its 3.6 (or so) cap, you'll see more pilots switch to mining, either because it's low effort and low risk for that money, or in other cases, because they want that trit right there (and don't believe in hiring miner corps). ---------------------------------- Industrialist. I build it. You buy it. You break it and buy another one. Market domination through ingue ferrogue. (I did this and could have stopped it.)
Benglada Central Defiance	Posted - 2006.08.13 06:50:00 - [34] Originally by: Novarei Originally by: Benglada I hate to say it, but it seems to me that the number of actual players that are mining arent providing enough ore/mins to keep the economy afloat, it just seems that people are building a lot more then actual people can provide.... What data are you acting on? link? 3 years of experience, take 10 1.0 systems, check all the belts, look at people in a noob corp and people in a real corp. you will be staggered --------------------------- Originally by: Wrangler Unfrtinately you dnot get to vote..
Cmdr Baxter	Posted - 2006.08.13 08:15:00 - [35] Edited by: Cmdr Baxter on 13/08/2006 08:18:16 I don't think I need to extensively quote on the existence of the rules of supply and demand: that's been well-covered by previous speakers on this subject. We're all well acquainted with them, I believe, and so know that supply will always be in balance to demand, self-correcting as necessary to shifts within the market. That being said, I'm going to tentatively say that no, macro miners are not responsible for keeping the economy moving. I phrase it cautiously because I haven't traveled much outside the Citadel region, where mining activity by what appear to be non-macro miners appears to be quite high. Anyone's who has been in Jita, Sobaseki, or Isanamo at any point over the course of the last two weeks (and presumably longer) will know what I'm referring to. However, I believe that macro-miners do indeed have an impact on the game's economy. I haven't seen many of them in the Citadel: I think that player exploitation of the scripts (i.e. locking weapons causes them to flee the system) has mostly hounded them out of major systems. And there seems to be active discussion on channels when a suspected macro-miner is located: after all, it's not like they go out of their way to hide their presence. All those 1's and 0's in their names is rather a dead giveaway, along with their scripting. The few I have seen and encountered in the Citadel must be credited for a relentless script: a group of, for example, 2 barges and a Mammoth can ruthlessly and efficiently strip-mine a system clean of resources in less than 24 hours. Perhaps their efficient nature, far better than any human could achieve, is what we don't like about them, but I'll leave that for morality experts to debate over. What is clear to me, from my experience and travels in high-security systems in the Citadel region, is that macro-miners have an effect on the economy. But is it one on which the market hinges for day-to-day operations? No. EDIT: Let's not forget that there -are- other things to the market than mining. Trading, construction, smuggling, etc. are still a very sizeable presence in EVE. Just the other day, much to my surprise, I sold approximately 7300 units of tobacco from a system which was very far off the "beaten path" that most players travel. If someone was willing to go that far out there to get it from a backwater station, at a price that was about 20% above the regional average, then I consider that a sign that the market demand has never been better for that commodity.
Dao 2 Generals Of Destruction Syndicate Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.08.13 09:32:00 - [36] Yes macrominers make a huge impact ;p that impact is driving ppl way from high-sec mining. Sure prices would rise a bit (a lot on a very short term) if they were all to go away right now, especially ice fuel, but in the end it would work out and won't be THAT much higher. I wish this to happen :\| (no im not a high sec miner) to macrominers: GO THE ** AWAY U SAD LAME CHEATING BASTARD***** ------------------------------------------------ NEWLY ADDED ON 1/19 (though applies to all posts before ;p) the usual "I don't represent my corp or alliance" and stuffs like that Also the gal
Magnum III Journey On Squad	Posted - 2006.08.13 11:28:00 - [37] It looks like from this news artical that they will have to go to 0.0 for the ice, hahaha. This news story is on the front page of the EVE website. 6/29/2006 Ice Fields in Inner Empire Regions exhausted, Conservationists up in arms! Concervationists have called for a day of mourning today. Strip mining operations have depleted numerous Ice Fields in high-traffic, high-security Empire regions. Initial reports state these resources will not replenish, and other Ice Fields are in danger of the same fate. "Today is a very sad day, knowing that these once vast stretches of natural ice and beauty are forever gone," said Marcalin Chronet, a noted champion of resource and new Capsuleer protection rights. "How many more fields will suffer the same fate in order to pad the wallets of companies who automate the strip mining process for obscene profits? It's a shame that these large scale, automated mining ops went through these crucial areas and cleaned them out. Some new pod pilots are going to wonder where they can go to turn a couple ISK for expenses tonight." Others spoke out against these mining conglomerates. Said Aidan Black, CEO of Serenity Search, Salvage and Storage, "Hopefully, this loss of natural resources will have an impact on how these operations run. Maybe now, they will have to go into less-secure areas where they have to compete with Capsuleers who are at the controls of their mining AND weapon systems. Time will tell." Attempts were made to contact a number of strip mining conglomerate officers and CEOs. None could be reached for comment.
Edania Caldari Ordo Adeptus Astartes	Posted - 2006.08.13 11:33:00 - [38] personally i predict that macrominers are going to suffer over the comming winter weve seen for the last 2 northen hemisphere winters that mineral prices tend to decrease, one possible reason is that more casual players have more time to spend on Eve when its cold outside and supply disproportionatly increases to demand. Too much competition and lower profit margins may force some groups to different mmog's i admit that theres a bit of optimism in that anaylsis.
Shahadet Amarr	Posted - 2006.08.13 11:54:00 - [39] I come home from work and want to make some Isk but really don't want to play EvE all that much. I like to get a drink have something to eat frist. So I park my but in a 0.7/0.6 system, find some Krite, crank up the volume on the computer, and go make dinner. No macros I have to rush back to the PC when I here the "lock on" sound. I think a lot of players do this. You like the Sig? Check them out here and see who made them.


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