| Pages: 1 [2] :: one page |
| Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Jim McGregor
Caldari
   |
Posted - 2006.08.12 16:54:00 -
[31]
 Originally by: Nicoli Voldkif
I agree with you on the current state of balance between T2 and T1 ships. The thing That we are worried about is if T2 ships get the most benefit from rigs will that balance start becoming to where if you can't afford to run a T2 ship you have to be able to outnumber those who do by a rediculous amount.
One of EVE's biggest draws to me was that when I want to go PvP I can compete even If I don't have the absolute best gear. I don't want to see EVE become if you don't have a T2 ship with a full T2 mod fit, with T2 implants, and T2 rigs your going to be so disadvantaged that PvP becomes unenjoyable . Thats what turned me off from the WoW, EQ, CoH/CoV style games.
Yeah, I dont want that either and I understand that you are worried. But the fact remains that you lose things when you die in this game. Even if you can afford to replace the uber ship and the uber rigs, it will be a significant blow to your wallet if you have a full t2 setup tech 2 cruiser. Most people that fly Vagabonds and buy them off market seems to go back to t1 cruisers after a while since they lose so much money when they die. Then again, some people run missions for a week to replace the ship.
I remember back when i played wow that lots of kids had great gear and just ran around killing people because they were bored. But they wouldnt have done that if there would have been a risk of losing their gear and paying 1000g to get it back.
Its actually simple to kill most hacs using normal t1 cruisers in this game. Its not like wow where you cant kill a lvl 60 even if you are 10 level 50's. In Eve, you can jam him or tank/avoid the damage long enough to wear him down. People are very focused on skillpoints and ships, when what really matters is teamwork to bring a oldtimer down.
Grab a bunch of elite frigates and you will make anyone's day a bad one. :)
---
Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
000Hunter000
Gallente
Dummy Inc.
|
Posted - 2006.08.12 17:39:00 -
[32]
a cerb for 40 mill? where can i order some? 
*dreams on about hacs for 40 mill*
Banner will be updated shortly |
eLLioTT wave
Art of War
|
Posted - 2006.08.12 17:52:00 -
[33]
i know pilots that get upset (and its very rare) if they lose their rifter when fighting an interceptor. I'd also put them in any T1 variant vs hac and bet on the t1 version with them flying it ;)
Don't think sp and isk are ftw, player skill and tactics are. |
Akira Kaneshiro
Caldari
Associated Press
|
Posted - 2006.08.12 18:22:00 -
[34]
TBH I think CCP want this thing happens because.. if you think about the GTC and ISK. If the gap became bigger.. better to CCP because people will buy more and more GTC to trade for ISK to buy t2 ships, chars, etc to try decrease the gap between a noob and veteran player.
I dont think the total ammount of players in eve has increased so much in the last months. How many people do you know that has more than 1 account? Why? Because noob player are trying fill that difference as much is possible.
How many times I read in others forum the advice: "You will be ready to pvp after 6 months" 
CCP is very happy with this gap between noob player and veteran.
|
Jim McGregor
Caldari
|
Posted - 2006.08.12 18:47:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Akira Kaneshiro
TBH I think CCP want this thing happens because.. if you think about the GTC and ISK. If the gap became bigger.. better to CCP because people will buy more and more GTC to trade for ISK to buy t2 ships, chars, etc to try decrease the gap between a noob and veteran player.
I dont think the total ammount of players in eve has increased so much in the last months. How many people do you know that has more than 1 account? Why? Because noob player are trying fill that difference as much is possible.
How many times I read in others forum the advice: "You will be ready to pvp after 6 months"
CCP is very happy with this gap between noob player and veteran.
You can pvp after 1 week in a group. Dont blame ccp for not having the guts to try it. I used to take rookies with me to pirate people just to show them how much fun it is. And they loved it.
You read alot of crap in these forums...its not 6 months until you can pvp. Its possibly 6 months before you have all learning skills + tech 2 gunnery skills and support skills, but why wait for those to complete before you pvp? You will die anyway if you are a rookie, even with those character skills.
Dont believe the hype... just go out there and have fun. 2 newbies can kill a oldtimer easily if you just try it. If you lose, its probably because you dont know the game (oops, his medium drones COULD hit my frigate). Just play around and learn it.
---
Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Nicoli Voldkif
Caelli-Merced
|
Posted - 2006.08.12 18:57:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Akira Kaneshiro
How many times I read in others forum the advice: "You will be ready to pvp after 6 months"
Thats misconception that alot of people give that is incorrect. I was PVPing quite succesfully in a destroyer in about 3 weeks. When I got into a Caracal/Moa, a week later I was Pvping also. Thats what we want to keep.
|
Xelios
Minmatar
Rampage Eternal
|
Posted - 2006.08.12 19:52:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Akira Kaneshiro
TBH I think CCP want this thing happens because.. if you think about the GTC and ISK. If the gap became bigger.. better to CCP because people will buy more and more GTC to trade for ISK to buy t2 ships, chars, etc to try decrease the gap between a noob and veteran player.
I dont think the total ammount of players in eve has increased so much in the last months. How many people do you know that has more than 1 account? Why? Because noob player are trying fill that difference as much is possible.
How many times I read in others forum the advice: "You will be ready to pvp after 6 months"
CCP is very happy with this gap between noob player and veteran.
No, I don't think so. It doesn't matter how many GTC's are bought and sold with ISK, whoever is buying them would have paid for that time anyway. Whether someone sold him a GTC or he went to the store and bought one himself, either way CCP only get that money once.
Also the majority of people with more than one account are people who've been playing for months or years.
I think it's fine the way it is. A noob can usually not compete with a vet in tech 2 gear but you know what? It's the same in every game. EVE is all about teamwork, and a noob certainly can gang up with 3 or 4 other noobs and stand a very good chance of killing that vet in his expensive tech 2 ship.
The new BFG.
|
Riho
Mercenary Forces
|
Posted - 2006.08.12 21:32:00 -
[38]
i dont fly t2 ships in pvp... i rarely use t2 stuff on my ships....
not couse i dont have the skills or the money, but couse i can still beat the crap out of stuff... even t2 stuff. dependant on the opponent ofc :)
assault ships (frigs) are bit pricy, but interceptors feel ok to me atleast :P
hacs ..... thats another story :P
as i see it... t2 stuff = expenice... takse loads of balls to go out and pvp whit one and be redy to loose.... most ppl in even dont have a few bil in the vallet.
it takes alot of time to train for it aswell... yes... but they player who invested time and effort. u cant make a 1 month old cruiser pilot at the same lvl as a player who is flying a hac...whats the point of training those extra few months...
thats game mechanics, but in the end it comes down to player skill. a really good pilot can take on a hac and own it if the hac pilot is a pvp noob :P
if u train for it... u deserve to have an advantage over the player who hasnt trained for it.. or worked for the money to get the item.......
PS: hope i make sense... its god knows what time in the middle of the night here
|
Argenton Sayvers
|
Posted - 2006.08.12 22:34:00 -
[39]
Edited by: Argenton Sayvers on 12/08/2006 22:36:43
The thing to keep in mind is that no MMORPG (that i have seen) has real "skillbased" pvp. Even Guildwars has unlock grind and some (rare and only marginally better) PvE-only stuff (last time i checked, maybe they fixed that helmet) They all require various degrees of ability though.
I consider chess to be pretty much balanced and fair.
In eve, combat is asymmetrical. Because there are a lot of factors involved, players who are clearly at a disadvantage can still will (t1 cruiser vs HAC etc). This is roughly comparable to playing chess against someone who has several queens right from the start. A really good player still will wipe the floor with you. Does it prove anything though? No.
This doesnt change the basic nature of combat - your ability at organising PvE grind, dedicating RL resources (either time to grind or money via GTC) etc is an important part of combat. Eve is pvp using logistics.
You can win a quake / counter strike / starcraft championship right after installing the game for the first time in your life. The reason why this doesnt happen that often is because you lack practice - something that takes real life time and dedication as well. Sadly, people often tend to confuse time investment in self betterment ("training") with time investment in improved tools ("grind"). So to sum it up, "winning" CounterStrike takes only skillz (inherent to the player, transferable from server to server, even to different games), "winning" eve takes skillz, and "empty" time investment (you as a person dont gain anything from grind). [Yes, there are asymmetries in "pure" pvp games like CS - better computer, faster connection, good gaming mouse / keyboard etc etc]
Eve is one of the few games i know that has managed to give a special spin to grind. Because its so blatantly painful and pointless to grind ISK, losses in pvp get a "real" meaning. Wether the balance between grind and actual combat is right or wrong now - just look at the POS wars threads, instagank fleet battle whines, stab nerf requests, insta solutions etc...
|
Android Mindslave
Gallente
Mindworks Unlimited
|
Posted - 2006.08.12 22:45:00 -
[40]
I think the OP has missed the whole point of EVE.
EVE rewards smart play. If you can't play smart, your not going to get rewarded. A noobie will WTFBBQ you if your dumb and their smart. That goes for combat, and the economy.
|
Testicular Testes
|
Posted - 2006.08.12 22:50:00 -
[41]
The only bad elitism in EvE relates to skill requirements for massive increases in effectiveness - ie all the level 5 prereqs et cetera. Because skills are a linear progression, completely unstoppable and infinitely increasing - as opposed to isk, whose making can be stopped, whose value is dynamic and which can be lost and traded.
Ships costing a good bit is excellent, as it keeps risk vs reward alive and well - and there is nothing aside from a lack of spine from stopping someone else from making the effort to earn isk and risk it. Skills however are simply an artificial stratification, and their impact should be reduced ASAP :o
|
Gah'khaz
Caldari
|
Posted - 2006.08.12 22:57:00 -
[42]
skills are good, old players should have an advantage towards the new players, as should the rich towards the poor, what could do with a change however is to somehow make it so it's not worth killing new unskilled players for the vets and instead let them seek out their peers for some pvp snuggling.
|
Saeris Tal'Urduar
Amarr
|
Posted - 2006.08.12 23:45:00 -
[43]
This is the attitude that I think CCP has, and that worries me most. Its the WoW/EQ2/Eastern style MMO mentality.
Its the attitude that the people who grind the most deserve to be invulnerable god like damage dealing pwnmobils, and the only way to defent them is to grind just has hard as they did.
Thats not EVE, and it never has been, but its what I'm afraid it will become.
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Well, if they can afford to lose them, I guess they are working hard on making money then. Good for them. I dont see the problem here. Its not unbalanced that some people have lots of money and some dont.
And you're right Jim its not unbalanced that some people have a lot of money and others dont. But what will be unbalanced is that when the combo of Combat Boosters and T2 Rigs that can only be fitted on T2 ships will be. And it will make PvP in EVE as we know it about the isk grind only.
As it is now, experience in PvP and skill points can be and effectively offset between the meta fitted ship.
But I see all this new stuff being afforadble and useable only for the elite rich of EVE, thus leaving the causal gamer wondering why they even bothered?
Yes T2 rigs may end up being cheap, but what does that really matter when you can only completely use it on a T2 ship that costs 160M+.
Yes this post is about isk, but not because others have it in abundence and I dont.
Its about why make yet another new feature optimized just for the people who fly T2 ships.
Especially when this one little thing doesnt throw anything out of balance with T2 ships if done the way I suggested.
But if done the way CCP wants to, it just widens the gap within the game between the haves and have nots. And as far as I can see for no other reason than to just widen the gap.
Hell, its not like T2 ships need yet another boost to their uberness.
|
Ketrin
|
Posted - 2006.08.12 23:52:00 -
[44]
The OP is right. But only if you play EVE 1v1.
|
Hakiem
|
Posted - 2006.08.13 00:15:00 -
[45]
I think the OP is way over concerned about something that no one realy knows what it is going to be. The thing everyone is leaving out is the penalties on rigging, the devs have said the the T2 rigs will have greater penalties then the t1's. Until the rigs are actually out this debate is pointless, just wait and see what happens.
|
Yeihon
Eye of the Abyss
|
Posted - 2006.08.13 06:25:00 -
[46]
Edited by: Yeihon on 13/08/2006 06:26:35
oops, wrong thread
|
spurious signal
Caldari
Brainiacs
|
Posted - 2006.08.13 07:38:00 -
[47]
"CCP making a mistake?"
a?
So many to choose from :/
|
Avon
Caldari
Black Nova Corp
Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2006.08.13 08:14:00 -
[48]
Originally by: 000Hunter000
a cerb for 40 mill? where can i order some?
*dreams on about hacs for 40 mill*
That's what I pay for HACs.
The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
|
Wild Rho
Amarr
Imperial Shipment
|
Posted - 2006.08.13 08:21:00 -
[49]
My own real concern for the future of eves pvp is the blob war mentality.
It's not exactly CCPs fault that it happens as it largely comes down to human nature and people wanting to make sure they win. I also don't see any justifiable way to discourage it either and that's what worries me the most.
I think alot of old timers can agree the pvp nowadays isn't nearly up to the same standard as it used to be (and I don't mean becuase of changed game mechanics).
WE ARE DYSLEXIC OF BORG. Refutance is systile. Your ass will be laminated. - Jennie Marlboro
|
spRAYed
The Priory
|
Posted - 2006.08.13 10:55:00 -
[50]
Edited by: spRAYed on 13/08/2006 11:04:04
This really is pointless. Y!? Should a tech I cruiser be able to beat a HAC? And who said they cant anyway.
HAC's ARE NOT GODS HAND, their improoved cruisers. Its very easy to beat a HAC with a Cruiser even with little SP. Hit it where its weak and where it has NO ADVANTAGE compared to any other cruiser. CAP, Nos the bastard dry and u win. Simple.
Yes it is, dont care what u say, it just is. HAC's are still cruisers.
This isn't a matter of, better ships, tech II or not. It all comes down to experiance and setup anyway. And it sounds very reasonable that a tech I frig cant whoop a Assault frig 9 out of 10 times. Thats where u start to learn picking fights as the underdogs in eve..
------------------------------
pArlT? Ur watching too many movies dude... ^Sig by Liu Mang |
Logan Feynman
Legio Ancientis
|
Posted - 2006.08.13 11:20:00 -
[51]
So, to sum up the OP's argument:
- Something that I have only vague idea how it will work will certainly cause such an imbalance that a cheap ship will never be able to defeat a high-tech expensive ship in solo combat.
- This is wrong because we should all have equal chances in battle regardless of how long we play this game and how much effort we put into it.
EVE rewards smart playing and team work. It is ridiculously easy to make money in this game and to have fun at the same time. And it is incredibly fun to kill 100+ mil ships with small frigate gangs. For now, I don't see this changing, even with the rigs and combat boosters.
Originally by: Marvin the Paranoid Android
You live and learn. At any rate, you live.
|
Glassback
M. Corp
Lotka Volterra
|
Posted - 2006.08.13 11:21:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Saeris Tal'Urduar
No!! This is where you are getting it wrong, this is where you are once again making it just for the elitist wealthy!!
You are widening the gap between the T1 causual PvP'r to make it near impossible for them to compete against the T2 flying, combat boosted, 5 billion implanted, T2 rigged, T2 ammo'd opponent.
If you want I'll send you a T1 setup for the Tier 1 BS called "Domonix" that will solo any HAC with any number of implants at a fraction of the cost.
G.
I've got an idea--an idea so smart that my head would explode if I even began to know what I'm talking about
|
| |
|
| Pages: 1 [2] :: one page |
| First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |