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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 11 post(s) |
Plague Black
4S Corporation
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Posted - 2006.08.13 00:22:00 -
[1]
I had a conversation with several people in game and several interessting points were presented to me from EULA and CCP regulations regarding accounts transfer. Some people claimed that you can reclaim your old account if you have original CD key and payment proof (like credit card numbers and dates).
I know that in the old days selling accounts was not regulated by CCP. It was done openly and many accounts changed hands. The regulation that forbids selling accounts was done less then 2 years ago if my memory serves me well. So now you can only transfer character and not account, and it needs to be done for isk and you need to pay transfer fee of 20$.
My questions is: Does this affect accounts that changed owner before the regulation was introduced? Becouse if it does then consider a follwing scenario:
1) Mr. X starts playing at EVE launch at 2003. He has his box and id. 2) Mr. X gets bored after 6 months 3) Mr. X sells his account to Mr. Z, transaction is done over ebay or privately. CCP just notes change of user data in the database and know nothing about the transaction that took place. 4) Mr. Z continues to pay for te account and trains it to be uber PVP-er 5) 2 years go by 6) Mr. X learns about new regulations. He still has his CD key somwhere 7) Mr. X decides its time to get 'his' old account back and files a petition with CCP proving his original ownership with CD key and credit card number. He tells them a story about borrwing his account key to a friend who then sold it, or someone hacked it or any other story CCP would buy easily. 8) Mr. Z suddenly can not log in to his account as it is not his any more 9) Mr. X has done nothing for 2 years and now he has fully developed character
I am interessted how should CCP react in this case? Who has the right here? What should Mr.Z do to get his char back? What would you do?
I'm very very curious to find out what you people think about the above. I assure you that the information I have you above are accurate and regulations are in place. I also remember well that 2 years ago CCP didnt officialy forbid sale of characters. Unless someone can prove me wrong.
Oh and please dont go digging after your old keys and credit card numbers before all this is answered.
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Baldour Ngarr
Artemis Rising
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Posted - 2006.08.13 00:53:00 -
[2]
Originally by: Account Management page
Accounts can not change ownership. If you have received an account second hand, the original owner can still claim ownership of this account. Note that accounts transferred before May 18th 2004 are exempt from this rule, as account transfers were allowed before that time.
So if your account WAS transferred before that time, it's not yours any more. Mr. Z is safe from hijacking. ________________________________________________
"I tried strip mining, but I lost, and it's cold flying around in space naked." |
Exiled One
Amarr Imperial Shipment
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Posted - 2006.08.13 01:10:00 -
[3]
Mr. X is such an ********
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Arkanor
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2006.08.13 01:22:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Exiled One Mr. X is such an ********
Yeah seriously, that would suck.
Originally by: Ghosthowl WoW = hardcore paladins smashin dat face.
Originally by: HippoKing I just cried, you know that? |
voogru
Gallente Massive Damage
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Posted - 2006.08.13 02:04:00 -
[5]
Quote: 3) Mr. X sells his account to Mr. Z, transaction is done over ebay or privately. CCP just notes change of user
Here's what really happens.
Mr. X illegally sold an account over eBay, CCP finds the account, and bans the account. Mr. Z want's his money back. Mr. X has to pay back Mr. Z Mr. X Loses his account for being a retard.
Everybody wins.
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Maya Rkell
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2006.08.13 02:09:00 -
[6]
Ah, assumptions Voogru
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Bhaal
Minmatar M. Corp Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.08.13 03:13:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Bhaal on 13/08/2006 03:14:18
Originally by: voogru
Quote: 3) Mr. X sells his account to Mr. Z, transaction is done over ebay or privately. CCP just notes change of user
Here's what really happens.
Mr. X illegally sold an account over eBay, CCP finds the account, and bans the account. Mr. Z want's his money back. Mr. X has to pay back Mr. Z Mr. X Loses his account for being a retard.
Everybody wins.
Nope
Before character transfers, CCP allowed one player to "give" his account to another player.
I should know, I did it.
I had to email CCP and state that I was giving my account to another individual, gave his name, emails address, the whole bit...
As far as any sort of payments for these transactions, CCP said it was between the two parties, and did not involve them.
I happen to give my away for free, but I know others bought full accounts through Pay Pal, etc...
So you're wrong, ppl did not get banned for that b4 character transfers came along.
CCP stated quite clearly that you MUST email them with the new credentials for the account ownership; otherwise it still belonged to the original CD Key holder...
It may be illegal these days, but at one time it was not, and CCP allowed it. ------------------------------------------------ Current Hobby other than EVE
My Hero
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Oisin
Wreckless Abandon
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Posted - 2006.08.13 03:48:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Baldour Ngarr
Originally by: Account Management page
Accounts can not change ownership. If you have received an account second hand, the original owner can still claim ownership of this account. Note that accounts transferred before May 18th 2004 are exempt from this rule, as account transfers were allowed before that time.
So if your account WAS transferred before that time, it's not yours any more. Mr. Z is safe from hijacking.
Exactly. Reading 4tw.
And Voogru, nobody will get banned either. If you don't know why nobody will get banned for selling an account before May 18th 2004, you need to read the above quote again.
Wreckless Abandon is recruiting
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Tachy
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Posted - 2006.08.13 05:00:00 -
[9]
If the GM working on the petition is fast asleep or doesn't know that account trades have been allowed, the account is gone from the buyer.
This happened a few times, and there have been a few posts about it here on the forum too. --*=*=*--
Even with nougat, you can have a perfect moment. |
voogru
Gallente Massive Damage
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Posted - 2006.08.13 05:37:00 -
[10]
Oh, I know account transfers were allowed.
But buying and selling accounts on eBay wasn't.
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Baldour Ngarr
Artemis Rising
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Posted - 2006.08.13 08:06:00 -
[11]
Originally by: voogru Oh, I know account transfers were allowed.
But buying and selling accounts on eBay wasn't.
And you completely failed to spot the words "or privately" how exactly? ________________________________________________
"I tried strip mining, but I lost, and it's cold flying around in space naked." |
jin jiny
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Posted - 2006.08.13 09:29:00 -
[12]
Ah this is a sirious loop hole if this scenario can actualy work, I can see lot of ppl going through their old tavern boxes looking for cd keys heheh. but to the sirious point:
1) if a player sells his account or otherwise doesnt play/use it for 6months it gets deleted, so if Mr. X didnt do anything he would still lose account. So seems unafair that Mr. X gets account that he would of lost anyways and he gets benefit of somebody paying for it all these years for him just to pick up where he left off plus UBER CHAR lol, this is PRICLess. I feel sory for any pearon who becomes Mr Z.
I think I am gona make few emails to couple of ppl who actualy sold their accounts like this maby they can get them back and we can split the Uber isk we can get from em hehe.
On sober note reality is if this is true lot of ppl will be in truble, i.e old players , posibly leaders of lot of aliances . and MrZ. who invested all his time, energy and love for this game ,his char ,his eve life gets wtfpowned and mostlikely will quit eve for good. i.e.loss of customers. and bad taste for everbody else.
peace out and i hope this is not true for anybody.
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Dao 2
Generals Of Destruction Syndicate Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2006.08.13 09:37:00 -
[13]
i suggest u all read what bhaal said ;p ------------------------------------------------ NEWLY ADDED ON 1/19 (though applies to all posts before ;p)
the usual "I don't represent my corp or alliance" and stuffs like that
Also the gal |
Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age
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Posted - 2006.08.13 09:53:00 -
[14]
Mr. Z made an error by not demanding the box whne he bought the account.
@Jin Jiny: accounts are not deleted after 6 months inactivity/unsuscription.
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Ms Z
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Posted - 2006.08.13 09:57:00 -
[15]
My husband never bought an account
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Plague Black
4S Corporation
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Posted - 2006.08.13 10:14:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Plague Black on 13/08/2006 10:15:01
Originally by: Aramendel Mr. Z made an error by not demanding the box whne he bought the account.
@Jin Jiny: accounts are not deleted after 6 months inactivity/unsuscription.
So you are saying that rules that were introduced by CCP should be enforced retroactively and Mr. Z has been paying to CCP for 2 years just to be stripped of his account becouse he doesn't have an original box?
Even lawbooks have this types of problems sorted but are, unline CCP regulation, clearly on the side of the current owner (lets not quote laws, that is so boring and every country does it a bit differently). If you come along and claim that something is yours you must prove it.
And not just by showing an old bill, you must prove that what you don't own any more was taken away from you illegaly and not just say 'oh it's mine, someone took it you know but I haven't really noticed for 2 years'. Legally some cases can even go 'stale' and if no one steps in front for a certain period of time the ownership is with the current owner for good.
Then there is a different aspect. Mr.X was paying for 2 years, let's say 15$ a month. That is 360$ that Mr.X has given to CCP and has full right to claim it back now unless he stole the account (which never ever happened).
I see a very dangerous loophole here as CCP's regulations are clerly not complete and detailed enough to cover all possible scenarios. Since we are not talking ingame items I even see a possible lawsuit against CCP for reclaiming the money invested, and (if Mr.Z lives in the USA) some cash for 'pain and suffering caused by loss of favourite toy'. With a good lawayer Mr.Z can even turn his around and really cash in, I believe.
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Missy Mai'la
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Posted - 2006.08.13 10:20:00 -
[17]
I have asked CCP on this matter. You CANT get an account just by knowing the CD key, you have to have the CD key, date of account creation, registered name, account name, etc, you need to know a great deal about the account in order to prove to CCP that you own it, you cant just say "i lost my account, the cd key is 2313424, give me back my account" You need to know a lot more than that.
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Gusar Mora
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Posted - 2006.08.13 11:40:00 -
[18]
well the issue from what i gather here is who is entitled to ownership of an account, a person who made it at beggining and sold it or the person who was using it for 2 years and was paying for it. We all have to remeber that this is subscription game and not buy it onece and use it all the time.
In termas of law the initial owner had interest in account of ownership and all rights that come with it, after account is sold he loses those rights, or should have. The person who invested 2 years work and cash to same account has much larger interest in acount in terms of ownership as his contribution was more than merly renting but more like a lease, which if its longer than a year in EU countries is recognised as a intrest in ownership.
Now it is highly unlikely that the Mr.Z stole the acount as he was using it for 2 years and mr X never complained, he only did now as he sees advantage in isk profit if he sells char, so we can assume that in such situation account was sold but the new owner forgot to change the details with CCP. Now is that good enough reason for new guy to come in and say hey this is my account give back all you earned. I think its highly sceptical.
If we look at eve as a game we do not buy the client the but right to play, as eve client is loaned to us freely by ccp, the right in playing/useing the game comes from subscription payment and ownership is thus determined. So in reality person who has been paying for the account is the true owner as otherwise the account would have been deleted anyways after 6 months.
The question that some people see that CCP could be in legal bind is also sceptical but highly possible, as all this cenario originates from something 2 years ego and CCp rules werent developed than,now person can argue that his char was stolen by ccp as he developed it etc, maby discrimination, yara yara. but we are missing the point than.
The real issue is is it ok that somebody should loose the account if a person forgot to update details with ccp after purchase of account 2 years ego, where rules were unclear at best. also claim by old owner that account was stolen is highly unlikely as it took him 2 years to complain, why now i would ask. Its a can of worm that CCP should plug as lot of players could be affected unfairly.
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Missy Mai'la
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Posted - 2006.08.13 11:52:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Gusar Mora well the issue from what i gather here is who is entitled to ownership of an account, a person who made it at beggining and sold it or the person who was using it for 2 years and was paying for it. We all have to remeber that this is subscription game and not buy it onece and use it all the time.
In termas of law the initial owner had interest in account of ownership and all rights that come with it, after account is sold he loses those rights, or should have. The person who invested 2 years work and cash to same account has much larger interest in acount in terms of ownership as his contribution was more than merly renting but more like a lease, which if its longer than a year in EU countries is recognised as a intrest in ownership.
Now it is highly unlikely that the Mr.Z stole the acount as he was using it for 2 years and mr X never complained, he only did now as he sees advantage in isk profit if he sells char, so we can assume that in such situation account was sold but the new owner forgot to change the details with CCP. Now is that good enough reason for new guy to come in and say hey this is my account give back all you earned. I think its highly sceptical.
If we look at eve as a game we do not buy the client the but right to play, as eve client is loaned to us freely by ccp, the right in playing/useing the game comes from subscription payment and ownership is thus determined. So in reality person who has been paying for the account is the true owner as otherwise the account would have been deleted anyways after 6 months.
The question that some people see that CCP could be in legal bind is also sceptical but highly possible, as all this cenario originates from something 2 years ego and CCp rules werent developed than,now person can argue that his char was stolen by ccp as he developed it etc, maby discrimination, yara yara. but we are missing the point than.
The real issue is is it ok that somebody should loose the account if a person forgot to update details with ccp after purchase of account 2 years ego, where rules were unclear at best. also claim by old owner that account was stolen is highly unlikely as it took him 2 years to complain, why now i would ask. Its a can of worm that CCP should plug as lot of players could be affected unfairly.
ccp will tell u where to shove it, if you dont use their character transfer system, they dont get their ú15 or 20 euro, so they dont care, they'll say its your fault for not making a new account to transfer the character to.
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Tramus
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Posted - 2006.08.13 12:09:00 -
[20]
First of all, that bit on the bottom of My Account Page:
Accounts can not change ownership. If you have received an account second hand, the original owner can still claim ownership of this account. Note that accounts transferred before May 18th 2004 are exempt from this rule, as account transfers were allowed before that time.
The Note is just useless noise and should be ignored.
This happened to me, I bought an account, for the cost of the game, sent the rl cash but never demanded the original cd-key or box as this was not an issue back then, you could Transfer accounts with no problems.
Recently, the player decided to return and after making contact and finding out what skills his old chr had, after over 2 years out of the game, he petitioned CCP.
The account was banned pending a CCP investigation which took almost exactly 1 month.
In the end, the account was transferred back to the old player but I was allowed to keep the 2 chrs on it that I had spent 2 years training/playing and paying for.
The way around this for anybody that is in this potential situation is to: 1) Create a 2nd account, a new account. 2) Transfer the chrs from the 1st account to the 2nd account (you pay the extra to transfer them). 3) You deactivate and stop paying for the original account.
Should the original owner decide to be a 'tard after over 2 years, he can claim his old account back and it will have no effect on you.
This is just my experience and whilst annoying and making me very angry and sad at the time, CCP did come up with what I considered a fair compromise (fair because I effectively won).
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Jim Steele
Syncore Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.08.13 12:19:00 -
[21]
Buying "eve" chars from ebay is against the EULA so the character should return to player X.
If player Y wants the character / money back he should go through ebay this has nothing to do with CCP and is his own fault for breaking the EULA..
That said player X should also be permabaned, imho.
Author of "The Apoc Guide" |
Lorette
Gallente Grandma's WIth Guns
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Posted - 2006.08.13 12:26:00 -
[22]
The 2nd reply shows the clear answer, which also happens to be a direct quote from the accounts page. If an account changed hands before that date it doesnt matter at all how it changed, whom-ever was the current holder of the account AT that date is effectively the person with the 'original purchase', after that date characters should only be transfered via the char transfer thingy which doesnt involve "accounts" at all.
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Missy Mai'la
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Posted - 2006.08.13 12:29:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Jim Steele Buying "eve" chars from ebay is against the EULA so the character should return to player X.
If player Y wants the character / money back he should go through ebay this has nothing to do with CCP and is his own fault for breaking the EULA..
That said player X should also be permabaned, imho.
So is selling them, so the account and character should just be banned, not be given back to the guy who sold it on ebay in the first place.
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CHIKA QRE
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Posted - 2006.08.13 12:29:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Jim Steele Buying "eve" chars from ebay is against the EULA so the character should return to player X.
If player Y wants the character / money back he should go through ebay this has nothing to do with CCP and is his own fault for breaking the EULA..
That said player X should also be permabaned, imho.
You miss the point. These regulations didn't exost before and can not be applied backwards. You can't just make the law and apply it 100 years backwards.
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Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age
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Posted - 2006.08.13 13:30:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Plague Black So you are saying that rules that were introduced by CCP should be enforced retroactively and Mr. Z has been paying to CCP for 2 years just to be stripped of his account becouse he doesn't have an original box?
The box is basically the proof of purchase. If you buy an account but do not demand getting *everything* of it then, yes, it's your fault.
To compare, it's like buying a car and not getting the car papers or signing any document. The seller could then easily call the police and tell them you stole his car. You cannot prove you bought it.
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Hllaxiu
Shiva Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2006.08.13 15:51:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Aramendel You cannot prove you bought it.
Sure you can. Just have proof of the transaction. That way, if the guy called the police and called it stolen, he gets in trouble for fraud. --- Our greatest glory is not in never failing, but in rising up every time we fail. - Emerson |
Matrix Aran
Legio Immortalis Knights Of the Southerncross
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Posted - 2006.08.13 16:06:00 -
[27]
At the end of the day the moral of the story is don't buy accounts. Because in prety much any online game you are open to this kind of tactic. I've seen it happen in WoW and in EVE. The simple rule is don't buy an account. If you buy an account be prepared to have it taken away from you. In my own personal opinion if you didn't work at the account in the first place you don't really deserve to own it in the first place, but thats just my Ç0.02
----
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Temi
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Posted - 2006.08.13 16:46:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Temi on 13/08/2006 16:45:59 Load of crap tbh
Claiming an account back 2 years later, after giving it away is quite simply redicolous. Spelling errors ahoy.. |
Plague Black
4S Corporation
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Posted - 2006.08.13 18:06:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Matrix Aran At the end of the day the moral of the story is don't buy accounts. Because in prety much any online game you are open to this kind of tactic. I've seen it happen in WoW and in EVE. The simple rule is don't buy an account. If you buy an account be prepared to have it taken away from you. In my own personal opinion if you didn't work at the account in the first place you don't really deserve to own it in the first place, but thats just my €0.02
So if you worked on the account for 2 years after obtaining it it should be yours? Or does it still belong to someone who played only 6 months and then got tired until he saw the potential to get it back?
Many many loopholes here. I think CCP should get a lawyer to re-write the regulations and make them more 'buletproof'. But that is just me thinking.
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Faith Black
Minmatar Rolls Roids
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Posted - 2006.08.13 18:44:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Temi Edited by: Temi on 13/08/2006 16:45:59 Load of crap tbh
Claiming an account back 2 years later, after giving it away is quite simply redicolous.
Signed. They should just move the chars from that account and give that guy the empty account. Solved. The chars are only guaranteed to be safe for 6 month anyway, after that CCP can delete them. So what ?
An example: I've bought a char for isk via forum auction one year ago. Most skillpoints are from me and I've payed for that. But I know that I'm at least the 3rd owner of that char. Would be rediculous, if the char creator came now after a year or more and tried to get that char back. I never got a convo within the last year, so I guess either everything was ligit, when he gave him away to the next owner or he doesn't play anymore. But how can I know ? Maybe he requests his char back for some stupid reason, when I've got already 40 mil SP or so. That should just not be possible.
Agree: Maybe change the EULA, if it's unclear.
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