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Nicose
Caldari
The Vendetta Mercenary Company
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Posted - 2006.08.14 08:51:00 -
[1]
Dear Sirs, i prepose a change to the current eagle hardpoint layout. i know there is much debate about this else where and people complaining, naturally its because everyone fears it will be "overpowerd" and "unbalance" the current Heavy Assult Cruiser's. my proposal is that you change the current eagle hardpoint layout from a 4 turret 2 launcher split to a 5 turret 0 launcher, similar to the cerberus being a dedicated missile boat make the eagle a dedicated gun boat.
my reasoning is this; as caldari you have two main weapon routes, either missiles or rails. now the cerberus has 6 hi slots and only 5 launcher hardpoint which works really well i've heard. the eagle though, a dedicated rail boat only has 4 turret hadpoints but 2 launcher hard points. with to be honest gives it a very poor DPS in comparison to the other HAC's.
In giving the Eagle +1 turret hardpoint and removing -2 launcher hardpoints but leaving in the hi slot i believe the ship would "balance" its self. this is because it would mean yes it would have a higher DPS and a slightly better "alpha strike" but it would also leave it much more vunerable to close range assults as it would not have an offensive counter. for example as it stands at the moment if an eagle is way out sniping and an interceptor gets too close for the guns to hit it just gets a volley of missiles and possible a NOS in the face, if my changes were implemented the eagle would have no way to counter the close range other than possible ECM or NOS (unless in GANG). now i believe that this compromise would be acceptable to the greater eve majority, and welcomed by the current eagle pilots.
Lets see it happen, can i get a show of hands for the 5/0 split eagle.
Nicose
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Nicose
Caldari
The Vendetta Mercenary Company
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Posted - 2006.08.14 11:09:00 -
[2]
on another note, if you feel this would be a bad idea or you have had a slightly different idea please by all mean post a reply. constructive critisim here only please, its only an idea.
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Mathias Orsen
Gold-dust
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Posted - 2006.08.14 11:37:00 -
[3]
personally, I think 4/2 is fine... gives the option of defender missiles, assault missiles, heavy missiles, or the standard nosf. The eagle lacks damage output compared to the cerb but at the same time the cerb lacks tank compared to the eagle.
Same thing applies to the ishtar (tank) diemos (damage). The Eagle is the low side of caldar HAC.. All ships are that way. sorta like tier 1 bs and a tier 2 BS.
---"What's in your wallet?"---
"There are two kinds of respect, fear and admiration.... I'll take what I can get" |
Nicose
Caldari
The Vendetta Mercenary Company
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Posted - 2006.08.14 13:49:00 -
[4]
i would partly agree with you there, however, just on the example you used the ishtar does a phenominal amount of damage with good drone skills, possibly even enough to out damage the deimos. that and the eagle is suposed to be of higher teir over the cerberus.
realisticly speaking your not going to kill an inty when hes in your face before his buddies use the "warp to" button, so the is an argument with why bother with launchers? fit a small 125mm rail if you want to remove an inty, would do better DPS over a luancher too.
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Maya Rkell
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2006.08.14 17:00:00 -
[5]
And what about the Munnin, which does the same? (2 launchers, 2 highslots not turrets)
The Eagle dosn't need a 25% damage boost to its firepower other, so the damage bonus would need changing... (tracking, maybe...)
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Reggie Stoneloader
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Posted - 2006.08.14 17:24:00 -
[6]
Caldari rail boats all tend to suffer somewhat in the damage department, but they get a big juicy tanking bonus to make up for it, so it's not too bad. Considering that an Eagle is one of the sturdier HACs, I'd say the current layout isn't too bad. Besides, with it's already impressive range, a fifth turret would make it extremely effective as an anti-frig machine, perhaps too effective to be fair.
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Nicose
Caldari
The Vendetta Mercenary Company
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Posted - 2006.08.15 08:02:00 -
[7]
i think that with the loss of both the missile slots on my proposed fit i think changes the bonuses would only prove to make the situation worse.
yea the munin is in the same boat however the munin does get a better bonus for combat use, and it also plays on the same feild as all the other HAC's (close to med range).
i mean realistically any other HAC would tear a current eagle to shreds! even if an eagle caught one at range i think any other HAC would be able to charge it down and kill it. basically all other HAC's seem supreme in comparison to an eagle if all put on the same feild.
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Super Spike2
Amarr
UNITED STAR SYNDICATE
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Posted - 2006.08.15 11:06:00 -
[8]
the sacreledge is the same it is a gun boat but has 4 guns and 2 missles, are you saying we need to change this ship to?
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Nicose
Caldari
The Vendetta Mercenary Company
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Posted - 2006.08.15 14:37:00 -
[9]
i wouldnt know i have never flown one but what is the sacs role? pure tanker? snipping platform? if you feel its hardpoint for sac doesnt fit the role then yes change it.
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Maya Rkell
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2006.08.15 14:54:00 -
[10]
The Sac is, well "useless". It HAD a role with missiles and nos, but that was removed.
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Nikolai Nuvolari
Caldari
Gilead's Bullet
Kimotoro Directive
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Posted - 2006.08.18 02:23:00 -
[11]
I think this needs to be part of a larger-scale adjustment of Caldari gunboats:
Merlin: 2/2 to 3/1
Moa: 4/2 to 5/1
Eagle: 4/2 to 5/1
Ferox: 5/5 to 6/3
Vulture: 5/5 to 7/0
 Originally by: Maya Rkell
And what about the Munnin, which does the same? (2 launchers, 2 highslots not turrets)
It might be good to change the Muninn from 5/3 to 6/2, although you run into scary alpha-strike problems that you don't have to worry about with rails.
Originally by: Maya Rkell
The Eagle dosn't need a 25% damage boost to its firepower either, so the damage bonus would need changing... (tracking, maybe...)
Yes, it does need that boost. For example, let's compare the Eagle to the Deimos. The Eagle has lesser DPS and greater range because of both the difference between blasters and rails, and having an optimal bonus where the Deimos has a damage bonus. In each instance, it's a fair trade, but there's absolutely no reason to have one fewer turret in exchange for...nothing. The Eagle is the longest-ranged HAC and the Deimos is the shortest-ranged HAC, but they're each balanced against each other...except for their hardpoints.
It's not even balanced against the Cerberus, which again gets 5 bonused hardpoints against the Eagle's 4.
Originally by: Reggie Stoneloader
Besides, with it's already impressive range, a fifth turret would make it extremely effective as an anti-frig machine, perhaps too effective to be fair.
It's ALREADY an extremely effective frigate killer, so if that's a problem, it's already too late.
Originally by: Super Spike2
the sacreledge is the same it is a gun boat but has 4 guns and 2 missles, are you saying we need to change this ship to?
I thought EVERYBODY knew the Sacrilege was broken.
--------------------- Originally by: Herko Kerghans
Nik = win. Period.
Mebrithiel Ju'wien > Nik's bio 4tw btw
Graelyn > Nikolai for Dev 108!
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Reggie Stoneloader
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Posted - 2006.08.18 04:43:00 -
[12]
I love my missile Ferox. Don't even joke about that.
A fifth turret hardpoint on the Eagle would make it pretty amazing. Five blasters and that tank would be very dangerous indeed.
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Nikolai Nuvolari
Caldari
Gilead's Bullet
Kimotoro Directive
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Posted - 2006.08.18 07:17:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Reggie Stoneloader
I love my missile Ferox. Don't even joke about that.
The Ferox is a RAILGUN ship. RAILGUN!
You aren't going to have ANY REASON to use missiles on a Ferox anymore because the Tier 2 battlecruiser is a MISSILE SHIP. With BONUSES for missiles. And probably MORE than five hardpoints.
--------------------- Originally by: Herko Kerghans
Nik = win. Period.
Mebrithiel Ju'wien > Nik's bio 4tw btw
Graelyn > Nikolai for Dev 108!
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Makaera Koshito
Caldari
Einherjar Rising
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Posted - 2006.08.18 10:11:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Nikolai Nuvolari
I think this needs to be part of a larger-scale adjustment of Caldari gunboats:
Merlin: 2/2 to 3/1
Moa: 4/2 to 5/1
Eagle: 4/2 to 5/1
Ferox: 5/5 to 6/3
Vulture: 5/5 to 7/0
Excellent suggestions, Nik. I hate the split platforms that Caldari have.
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Ricky Baby
Beagle Corp
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Posted - 2006.08.18 10:59:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Nicose
i would partly agree with you there, however, just on the example you used the ishtar does a phenominal amount of damage with good drone skills, possibly even enough to out damage the deimos. that and the eagle is suposed to be of higher teir over the cerberus.
realisticly speaking your not going to kill an inty when hes in your face before his buddies use the "warp to" button, so the is an argument with why bother with launchers? fit a small 125mm rail if you want to remove an inty, would do better DPS over a luancher too.
haha
the ishtar does around 300-350 DPS with max drone skills (t2 drones etc etc) the deimos on the otherhand will easily pull 600 with a dmg mod or 2 and thats before you count it drones.
as far as the eagle is concerend it is imo already a good ship, while it lacks the damage of the deimos if setup in beagle form (blaster eagle) you should win against a deimos, the eagle also has impressive ewar power and has the option of engaging at ranges most other hacs cant.
as for other hacs the muninn could do with a change - more mids maybe - less highs more grid i dunno. not sure about the sac - seemed better as a quasi missile boat than its current "baby zealot" format.
----------------------
ABP Spy |
Nicose
Caldari
Wreckless Abandon
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Posted - 2006.08.21 08:56:00 -
[16]
Ok im really very impressed, obviously the flamers never bother coming to the development area, HORRAY!
on a more serious note, i can see from reading above that there are arguments from both sides, and all good ones.
theres also the issue that some other HAC's appear to need a slight change to also bring them inline with other ships of their class.
i personally would like to see some possible changes tested on SISI, this would allow all the players and devs to see if these changes are a) viable and b) practical.
would you like to see the changes in SISI?
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Tera Patrik
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Posted - 2006.09.21 14:02:00 -
[17]
i think it would be better if ccp add dronebay to eagle instead of 5. turret.i dont use sniper setup with eagle and that will be good if i have some drones:)
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Maya Rkell
Forsaken Empire
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Posted - 2006.09.21 14:27:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Nikolai Nuvolari
Yes, it does need that boost. For example, let's compare the Eagle to the Deimos.
Yes, let's compare rail Eagle to a blaster Deimos. Or..we can compare like to like.
What else is teh Eagle going to sacrifice? The tank? It's NOT a broken ship, and 25% more damage needs to be taken out of its hide somewhere. Not to mention you're supporting gank, sniper gameplay which is one of Eve's remaininging biggest problems.
I see Eagles on a regular basis, they are useful and used ships. It does, and the Munnin most certainly does not, need a boost.
//Maya |
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