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Death Merchant
InterGalactic Corp.
Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2006.08.15 15:17:00 -
[31]
 Originally by: Grey Area
Edited by: Grey Area on 15/08/2006 15:09:40
More detail than I wanted to give at the start...but since you asked...
Originally by: Audrea
1) If the decoy is stationary - large guns will hit it almost to full extent, even if its frig sized (ever seen Moros killing ceptor in one hit of capital railgun? :P ).
I envisaged that the decoy would simulate the ship...it would move as the ship did (pretend it's an NPC for sake of argument)
Second option - think of the decoy as a really big drone...you can tell it to attack a target, or orbit your ship. Of course it has no weapons, but it would control the way it moved. Attack would try to put distance between you and the decoy, orbit would keep it close to you...which you choose depends how your weapons are set on your ship.
Originally by: Audrea
2) If the decoy is stationary, and the ship is not - what will happen when ceptor goes to 40km from the decoy before its down? will the other side be able to 'see' where the true ship is at all?
This was actually one of the penalties I envisaged for the firing ship...as soon as it fires the decoy, it's speed is capped to 10% maximum...the controlling ship would still be clearly visible...interceptor pilots would thus have a choice...do damage to the decoy to try and destroy it, or stay near to the controlling ship ("approach" and "orbit" would still work, but they would not be able to fire upon it...all fire would default to the decoy) so that they could resume the attack when the decoy failed.
I would say the Decoy ship would never stray more than 50km from the "real" ship.
I dont think our current game enviroment could support such a thing. I do however think its a valid idea.
"What happens in Deklien stays in Deklien". |
Grey Area
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.08.15 15:32:00 -
[32]
Edited by: Grey Area on 15/08/2006 15:35:14
Originally by: Death Merchant
I dont think our current game enviroment could support such a thing. I do however think its a valid idea.
You want to expand on that? I don't see it as being so system intensive...it's adding a short lived NPC/drone type entity to a combat...not really that much in terms of extra resources. And the calculations are very simple
If Decoy = Active Then damage drone
If Decoy = not active Then damage ship
Am I missing something?
BTW, no-one asked yet, but I am sure they will...yes, you could fit multiple decoy launchers...if you really want to sacrifice all those hi-slots...but the delay between firing decoys would remain the same...you would not be able to launch a new decoy from ANY launcher within say 30 seconds of the loss of control of the previous one.
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Monty Pythons spoof of the EVE Forums;
Palin: "Is this the right room for an argument?"
Cleese: "I've told you once." |
Savion Mercarte
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Posted - 2006.08.15 15:35:00 -
[33]
I like the idea. Just something simple. Like "1/2 Sig Radius to drones." Or a burst-ecm-like smartbomb-ish thing that renders drones unable to attack for 5 seconds.
But... balanced.
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KillerLU
VakAtioth
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Posted - 2006.08.15 18:14:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Grey Area
3. Introduce decoys
Interesting idea. Maybe making a new thread helps to make this idea a bit more public?
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Djerin
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Posted - 2006.08.15 18:49:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Hydrogen
Actually you can use drones for more - rtfm helps.
Actually i was talking about the drone augmentations. I didn't ever say drones suck, but the augmentations do. You've been whining about getting arsed by some drone-using-pirate or whatever. So i was referring to pvp either. Have you ever seen any pvp-setup that kicks a** because the augmentations? You see? This is what i tried to explain.
Furthermore i know sentries are neat and stuff. But who uses them in pvp??
...
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Risien Drogonne
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Posted - 2006.08.15 18:54:00 -
[36]
Originally by: VoxDei
To all the people saying that if they implement an anti-drone module you want an anti-missile module: Drones != Missiles. Missiles are a primary weapon system, equivalent to turrets. Drones are not: you can mount guns as well as drones. OK, granted, the drone-carrier ships are intended to use drones as a major part of their damage output, but they're still expected to be using guns.
Drones are a primary weapon system too. Those gun mounts you're talking about on droneships come coupled with a gimped powergrid and a low amount of high slots, making it difficult to fit real guns to a droneship.
And I can turn this around on you... Those missile ships are expected to use drones. Does that make drones YOUR primary weapon?
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Nidhoggur
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Posted - 2006.08.15 20:13:00 -
[37]
Edited by: Nidhoggur on 15/08/2006 20:13:57
Originally by: Hydrogen
Edited by: Hydrogen on 15/08/2006 09:21:23
Originally by: Nidhoggur
Have you actually seen the drone upgrades? 3/4 are completely useless. I would prefer if they were all scrapped and replaced with a ROF+DMG bonus like missile users can get.
Useless?
Drone Control Unit - extra drones are not useless on Carriers
Drone Link Augmentator - I fail to see, how sniping with sentry drones using that module is useless?
Drone Navigation Computer - Use your drones from distance, only worth it with T2 drones
Omnidirectional Tracking Link - Sentry drones love it
Just because they offer no close combat advantage doesnt mean those are uselesss. Not at all.
Oh. How wonderfully condescending. It's the old "Just because you can't find a use for them, doesn't mean they're rubbish" chestnut. You see, heres the thing.
The Drone Control Unit is useful on one ship. One. You might as well completely discount it as an upgrade for drone users, in the same way we discount Cov Ops Cloaks, and Siege Modules.
The Drone Link Augmentator is the only useful mod I spoke of. Of course, the fact that turret users get a Range and a DMG/ROF mod doesn't matter at all, I presume.
The Drone Navigation computer... A slight increase in speed. Whooptidoo. Forgive me if I don't suddenly find myself chucking my own Mwd (which would of course give me more speed) into the bin.
As for the Omnidirectional Tracking Link, well, it shares some similiarities with the DCU, in that its completely useless for most drone ships. There are specialist cases... For sentry drones, because the extra range will actually matter there, and for, as another poster quite rightly said, ships with smaller drone bays... I saw your superb reply to that one, too. Think it through... The ship only has a big enough hold to field 5 large drones and nothing else, so needs the tracking module to help their large drones hit the smaller ships. The question is... Can you actually think of one ship that applies to?
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Cupdeez
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Posted - 2006.08.15 21:05:00 -
[38]
Originally by: kessah
Would be nice to have a module that could be like a emp burst that temporarly makes drones go nuts and attack anything on the players overview. Make them unresponsive and crazed for 20seconds or so.
Could even have the ecm burst module converted into it?
Drones especially t2 Heavy drones are incredibly powerful, they can even track ceptors which im not entirly impressed with and hitting from non-drone bonused ships for 100~150 dmg a shot. Must say i was in awe when my pilgrim was melted in less time it takes to sneeze by t2 berseker drones not even the time to align and warp 
Other than killing them perhaps just make them go crazy for a period of time heh. Just an idea.
Yah itz called eve and drones do this all the time to me... I lost a decent amout of isk in drones to this crap..
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Djerin
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Posted - 2006.08.15 22:44:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Nidhoggur
The Drone Link Augmentator is the only useful mod I spoke of. Of course, the fact that turret users get a Range and a DMG/ROF mod doesn't matter at all, I presume.
On the other hand drones are the only weapons that really let you choose your type of damage. You'll get no turndown of damage upon the drones you choose except for the timedelay if you fielded the wrong drones or need to field another type. But this delay basicly occurs to any change of ammunition.
I dont think we need a module to improve drones like a BCU improves launchers. But we certainly don't need a counterdrone-module. Any module you could use against a player or a NPC is working against drones too. You can web and targetpaint a drone - any frigging gun is gonna waste it in this case. You can burst a drone - if the owner doesn't react it's not gonna continue attacking you. There are so many things. And the owner of the drone basicly got "engage my target", "return to orbit" and "return to dronebay"...
So imho this thread is like "oh noooooes i don't know how to play the game"
Chicks! You don't need a stupid anti-drone-module! You need to learn how drones work and how to not suffer to them! Just imagine five newbs orbitting you with decent weapons...
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kessah
Caldari
Blood Corsairs
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Posted - 2006.08.15 22:57:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Cupdeez
Originally by: kessah
Would be nice to have a module that could be like a emp burst that temporarly makes drones go nuts and attack anything on the players overview. Make them unresponsive and crazed for 20seconds or so.
Could even have the ecm burst module converted into it?
Drones especially t2 Heavy drones are incredibly powerful, they can even track ceptors which im not entirly impressed with and hitting from non-drone bonused ships for 100~150 dmg a shot. Must say i was in awe when my pilgrim was melted in less time it takes to sneeze by t2 berseker drones not even the time to align and warp
Other than killing them perhaps just make them go crazy for a period of time heh. Just an idea.
Yah itz called eve and drones do this all the time to me... I lost a decent amout of isk in drones to this crap..
LOL well i want to intentionally do it teeehee.
Well drones are pretty much as important as anything else you can possibly fit to a ship, with the new wealth of drones, skills & mods for em there should always be an effective counter.
Shooting them down or smartbombing really shouldnt be the only anwser.
Just an idea, i just like to see a wealth of options availible to me 
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Forever Pirate |
Nidhoggur
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Posted - 2006.08.16 08:50:00 -
[41]
Edited by: Nidhoggur on 16/08/2006 08:50:48
Originally by: kessah
Well drones are pretty much as important as anything else you can possibly fit to a ship, with the new wealth of drones, skills & mods for em there should always be an effective counter.
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Hydrogen
Art of War
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Posted - 2006.08.16 09:27:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Nidhoggur
<snip>The question is... Can you actually think of one ship that applies to?
Well, just break out and think about ships with drone dmg bonus, like: Dominix, Ishtar,.. and Amarr line, like all Arbitrator hulls.
situation 1: Using sentry drones in a camp - place your drones 33 km above from gate. In that case the drones have a range of app. 48-50 km. The tracking speed actually helps to lock faster, as lock time on sentries on small ships suck.
situation 2: Using sentry drones in fleet - enter fleet battle as one of the last with your drone ship equipped for NOS or ECM and drones only. You can have a close to 100km control range and 60+km optimal range of sentries. Paired with the tracking link you can reassign targets at will, which are locked almost instantly.
situation 3: kill fast moving ships - a combination of all mentioned drone upgrades supports this task.
situation 4: arbitrator in empire killing unarmored haulers from distance - no comment figure out yourself.
Are those the best possible tactics? Actually it depends on character and the situation. But eg. in a solo camp in 0.0 you might enjoy these options.
AF Guide |
Djerin
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Posted - 2006.08.16 10:04:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Hydrogen
Well, just break out and think about ships with drone dmg bonus, like: Dominix, Ishtar,.. and Amarr line, like all Arbitrator hulls.
Well i suppose this is what he/we wanted to point out. Those ships have big dronebays. So you can bring different types of drones and just field the ones being best suited for the action.
Originally by: Hydrogen
situation 1: Using sentry drones in a camp - place your drones 33 km above from gate. In that case the drones have a range of app. 48-50 km. The tracking speed actually helps to lock faster, as lock time on sentries on small ships suck.
Tracking doesn't improve locktime.
Originally by: Hydrogen
you can reassign targets at will, which are locked almost instantly.
Well this is not quite true, because before you can assign anything to your drones you'll have to lock it yourself in the first place.
Originally by: Hydrogen
situation 3: kill fast moving ships - a combination of all mentioned drone upgrades supports this task.
Yes they support it. But using fast (namely light) drones in this case doesn't really need this support. They'll hit the target without the help of the tracking augmentation and they should be fast enough to keep up with the target.
Originally by: Hydrogen
situation 4: arbitrator in empire killing unarmored haulers from distance - no comment figure out yourself.
Now that's a true challenge...
Originally by: Hydrogen
Are those the best possible tactics? Actually it depends on character and the situation. But eg. in a solo camp in 0.0 you might enjoy these options.
Now read again what you wrote. You're almost only talking about how the augmentations improve your sentries. I think you're right. But i also think most players prefer to use t2 mediums or heavies - depending on the target. Using a Domi or Ishtar you can bring along 2 types of heavies/sentries, 2 types of mediums and 1 additional type of lights. So if you're going solo whether in 0.0 or in empire you see the target and field the appropriate drones. And while doing this you NOS and jam them targets if you can. According to my experiences the augmentations do not help you upon this tasks.
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Laboratus
Gallente
BGG
Freelancer Alliance
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Posted - 2006.08.16 10:10:00 -
[44]
Large Smartbomb. Kill the drones around you.
ECM drones. Jamming str 1? Drones have max sensor str 1. Perma jam drones.
Small blasters? Track and blow those drones up.
The problem is, no-one wants to waste module slots to get rid of drones, and hence get ganked by drone ships.
And get the impression they are uber.
While drones actually do abysmal dps, take forever to actually get to a target etc.
They have drawbacks, that can be used against them. So, do it.
Mind control and tin hats |
Lord WarATron
Amarr
Out Siders
Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.08.16 10:20:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Grey Area
Edited by: Grey Area on 15/08/2006 21:08:15
1. Scrap Defenders
2. Scrap Turret disrupters
3. Introduce decoys
Decoys don't affect ANY particular weapon...they affect ALL weapons...because they confuse your ship's targetting into thinking that the decoy is your ship. The decoy is launched from a special decoy launcher (that requires a hi-slot but no hardpoint). The launcher carries it's own ammo, enough for 5 shots. It cannot be reloaded. (when it runs out, you buy a new one). The decoy takes a certain amount of damage and then deactivates. ROF on the launcher would be such that you cannot simply launch one after the other...
Works on lasers, missiles, drones, hybrids, projectiles, nosferatu, warp scramblers, ECM...anything that requires a target. Smartbombs unaffected, though they would add damge to both the decoy AND the ship if inrange, meaning the decoy expires earlier.
The fact that it works on warp scramblers opens the possibility for the scrapping of warp core stabs. I am not sure how I feel about that at all...
The fact that it works on nosferatu offers a counter to this where there is currently none.
Firing ship SHOULD be able to target it's own decoy so that it can run armour/shield repairers on it to maintain it as long as possible.
*EDIT* I forgot to say that decoys would be size specific. Frigates would fire frigate sized decoys, with only a few hit points but which would be subject to the same damage reductions from "oversized" weapons. BS's would carry BS decoys, having many more HP's but taking full damage from larger weapons.
I think some penalty on the ship with an active decoy would be required...maybe a reduction in rate of fire for all weapons to reflect the extra CPU being used to maintain the decoy.
Decoys already exist and it is all down to player stupidity if they target them or not
/me ejects shuttle from bs....
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