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Time for Eve to embrace PunkBuster?

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 2 post(s)
PunkRoadkill	Posted - 2006.08.16 11:52:00 - [1] to be honest i'm not that bothered with macro'ers etc, but it does annoy me sometimes. and sorry if this has been suggested before :) however i do know some people get so annoyed with them that they tend to flip out and try to kill themselves. this is clearly unacceptable, so maybe its time for EVE to embrace PunkBuster? WHAT? Punkbuster in a MMO, you having a giggle? well no, now that Ultima Online has and i quote "Electronic Arts Inc. has contracted with Even Balance, Inc. to integrate PunkBusterÖ Anti-Cheat software into the massively multiplayer online game Ultima Online" its not such a massive leap. now the reason i suggest this is because CCP always say they can't police it, well with PunkBuster they won't need it. and none of that rubbish about "oh i don't want some 3rd party software scanning my system" if that was the case your'd never use the internet fullstop. to be honest i don't even know if PunkBuster could be merged with EVE, but i thought it might bring up some interesting discussions.
PunkRoadkill	Posted - 2006.08.16 11:54:00 - [2] please reply to this one :)
Bhaal Minmatar M. Corp Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.08.16 11:59:00 - [3] Edited by: Bhaal on 16/08/2006 11:59:22 If not EVE, the next MMO CCP makes will most likely have something like that, if you don't like it, don't buy a sub... I have a feeling many of the top MMO's of the future will have something of this nature scanning your HD... It's inevitable IMO... And if you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to worry about... If you're against it, it's probably because you're a cheater of some kind... ------------------------------------------------ Current Hobby other than EVE My Hero
jbob2000 Gallente The Taining corp Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2006.08.16 12:00:00 - [4] Meh, sure, why not. And yeah, the whole 3rd party program argument is so silly. First of all, this would be a CCP implemented feature so they would control it and you have already given them your credit card details. Secondly, it most likely (pretty sure :P) won't open up your 2006 tax reports and send them to some thief or something rediculous like that.
Cheyenne Shadowborn Caldari Citizens of E.A.R.T.H. E.A.R.T.H. Federation	Posted - 2006.08.16 12:02:00 - [5] Integrating it is prolly no big deal, its a fairly independent application that scans your system and probably has some defined API (in C or whatever) for integration. The other question will be, there need to be detection signatures for the programs used with Eve, since some of the macro programs are exclusively written for Eve. Someone would have to do this, presumably the Punkbuster folks and they obviously want to get paid for this, too. So its a cost factor. Quote: now the reason i suggest this is because CCP always say they can't police it, well with PunkBuster they won't need it. and none of that rubbish about "oh i don't want some 3rd party software scanning my system" if that was the case your'd never use the internet fullstop. Thats not rubbish, thats people's well-funded desire for privacy and control on their own hardware from everyone and the kitchen sink. But yeah, if its the choice between more massive cheating or less cheating and Punkbuster ... bottom line I don't think PB would be such a bad idea for Eve if done right. --

Xorus Forum Moderator Interstellar Services Department	Posted - 2006.08.16 12:02:00 - [6] Considering that you can easily stop an application from scanning certain folders with NTFS permissions its not really a solution, i'm sure there will be an update in the future that will change a lot of the hole's in EVE, just have patience :) ---

PunkRoadkill	Posted - 2006.08.16 12:02:00 - [7] aye, that was my thinking, it would be cool even if they just introduced a "lite" version of it. even if they lose a few 100 people who disagree with it, i reckon they're gain way more than that just from people who like to know theres at least some sort form of protection, regardless of wether it was actually 100% effective lol
Cheyenne Shadowborn Caldari Citizens of E.A.R.T.H. E.A.R.T.H. Federation	Posted - 2006.08.16 12:07:00 - [8] Originally by: jbob2000 Meh, sure, why not. And yeah, the whole 3rd party program argument is so silly. First of all, this would be a CCP implemented feature so they would control it and you have already given them your credit card details. Secondly, it most likely (pretty sure :P) won't open up your 2006 tax reports and send them to some thief or something rediculous like that. 1. its not CCP alone controlling it. Its PB Inc. (or whatever) that sends you the software and updates, and its closed source so you can't see what it does. 2. even if it does not sniff in your tax report (which again you can't tell because its closed source software) how do you know its safe? How do you know it can not be exploited by someone to put your personal holiday pics all over the net or deposit incrimminating files on your HD and then call the police? This has happened before, one of the most famous examples being Sony's copy protection desaster that turned into an entry and hiding mechanism for trojans. People should be a bit more worried about control over their hardware, that might just be a good thing. --
Sartaron Amarr ISS Navy Task Force Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.08.16 12:13:00 - [9] Well, I am one of those who don't like their hardware being scanned. It is a matter of privacy. I would like it more, if the game is designed in a way, that makes it almost impossible to use macroes. I don't know, how exactly a macro works, but as far as i can guess, it depends on repeatable actions. Mybe there is a chance to get rid of macroers. And we all know, that there are solutions to hide cheat-software from scanning-systems...
Cheyenne Shadowborn Caldari Citizens of E.A.R.T.H. E.A.R.T.H. Federation	Posted - 2006.08.16 12:18:00 - [10] Originally by: Xorus Considering that you can easily stop an application from scanning certain folders with NTFS permissions its not really a solution, i'm sure there will be an update in the future that will change a lot of the hole's in EVE, just have patience :) Thats assuming PunkBuster would even work with LUA (limited user access). The admin account can certainly reset or override NTFS permissions because its the highest instance. While MS tries to get vendors to write proper programs to make sure users at least have the choice of NOT running as Aministrator all the time for security reasons, I am sure PunkBuster's answer to that will be: We don't care - run PunkBuster in the Admin security context or don't play your game. Also, this is moot because the cheat program needs to be in memory and thats one option where PunkBuster can detect it, also for this alone it has to run with highly elevated permissions. --

Bhaal Minmatar M. Corp Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.08.16 12:21:00 - [11] Originally by: Cheyenne Shadowborn Originally by: jbob2000 Meh, sure, why not. And yeah, the whole 3rd party program argument is so silly. First of all, this would be a CCP implemented feature so they would control it and you have already given them your credit card details. Secondly, it most likely (pretty sure :P) won't open up your 2006 tax reports and send them to some thief or something rediculous like that. 1. its not CCP alone controlling it. Its PB Inc. (or whatever) that sends you the software and updates, and its closed source so you can't see what it does. 2. even if it does not sniff in your tax report (which again you can't tell because its closed source software) how do you know its safe? How do you know it can not be exploited by someone to put your personal holiday pics all over the net or deposit incrimminating files on your HD and then call the police? This has happened before, one of the most famous examples being Sony's copy protection desaster that turned into an entry and hiding mechanism for trojans. People should be a bit more worried about control over their hardware, that might just be a good thing. Well true, but I think ppl have to start taking better care of their highly personal information stored on a PC. More & more of our computers are exposed to stuff on the net, this will only increase as the web grows into what will someday be "The Link" Where we'll be hooking our brains directly into this net with cybernetics... I personally, am starting to move all of my important & personal data to USB drives that I can use back and forth between comps on the net and comps that don't even have a network card installed... Just like you have to protect your cargo in Jita, you need to be a bit proactive in taking care of your personal data and not rely solely on software... ------------------------------------------------ Current Hobby other than EVE My Hero
cold lazarus Amarr Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.08.16 12:26:00 - [12] probable the best way to get rid of them is to set up noob corps as a temp basis only after a set amount of time they are kicked from a the corp into a corp of their own name, the time limits should be set so that they cant train good enough skills to be able to fly any more than a cruiser cus they would just delete the char and create a new one when the time is up but it will badly hamper their income. and once they are out of noob corp they are free game for all the peeps who have them so much
FireFoxx80 Caldari E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2006.08.16 13:24:00 - [13] Let's break this thing down here.... Roid/Ice/'plex farmers != macroers. Whilst someone may be running 12 accounts all similarly named, in a belt, not responding to chat requests and evemails, it is probably all being run by someone in a sweat shop in eastern europe/asia. Not using a macro (after all these people can afford RSI, they cannot afford to have their accounts blocked). However, due to the nature of how Eve is coded (Stackless python, with some uncompiled bits of code laying about), it is shockingly easy to insert your own code into the client and catch events and automate actions. I've seen at least one very clever video where the macro automates random behaviour, recognises a full hold, deals with bumpage, docks and even refines your ore for you; all alongside a nice in-game interface and reporting tool. I could only suggest that CCP compiles/digitally signs/encrypts these entry points into the code. These are very much home grown hacks, made by people who understand what they are doing, and distributed to few. You are never going to stop the 'dumb' macro programs, the ones that recognise blocks of colour, or repeat keystrokes. There are dozens of programs out there, and this is the very thing that punkbuster is designed to block. Renaming of executables, recompiling of code, etc are all very simple things to do. I suspect this thread stemmed from the goonswarm portrait thread. To be honest, I am surprised we haven't seen standing indicators in local before. Anyway, again, this sort of hack is simply modifying cached files on the local machine, something anybody could do (only GS did it in a massively efficient manner). So no. PB won't help IMHO.
Ather Ialeas Viziam	Posted - 2006.08.16 13:47:00 - [14] PunkBuster is crap, always has been and always will be. In case EVE would incorporate PB, I'd do what I currently do with all the PB games (and StarForce games for that matter), I'd stop playing. ------- I'm not an alt.
Ms Freak Amarr NCN Corp	Posted - 2006.08.16 13:48:00 - [15] Originally by: Xorus Considering that you can easily stop an application from scanning certain folders with NTFS permissions its not really a solution, i'm sure there will be an update in the future that will change a lot of the hole's in EVE, just have patience :) Actually, in Americas Army (a game my entire corp plays on a regular basis) you MUST have admin permissions to play the game BECAUSE of this very fact. Punkbuster 4tw if you ask me.
Bhaal Minmatar M. Corp Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.08.16 13:52:00 - [16] Well, something needs to be done, as there are too many cheaters, and too many making hundreds of thousands of dollars from CCP's game... MMO's should not have to just "deal with it", there has to be a solution... ------------------------------------------------ Current Hobby other than EVE My Hero
Ather Ialeas Viziam	Posted - 2006.08.16 13:55:00 - [17] Originally by: Bhaal Well, something needs to be done, as there are too many cheaters, and too many making hundreds of thousands of dollars from CCP's game... MMO's should not have to just "deal with it", there has to be a solution... Only way to get rid of game currency (not just ISK in EVE) sellers would be for the dev to start selling game currency for dirt cheap ($5 for 250M or something like that) and we all know that that wouldn't work. Remember how PB was originally countered? Two words, heavy emphasis on first: private hacks. ------- I'm not an alt.

Xorus Forum Moderator Interstellar Services Department	Posted - 2006.08.16 13:58:00 - [18] Originally by: Ms Freak Originally by: Xorus Considering that you can easily stop an application from scanning certain folders with NTFS permissions its not really a solution, i'm sure there will be an update in the future that will change a lot of the hole's in EVE, just have patience :) Actually, in Americas Army (a game my entire corp plays on a regular basis) you MUST have admin permissions to play the game BECAUSE of this very fact. Punkbuster 4tw if you ask me. Remove admin from the access list on the folder with your sensative stuff in then create a second admin account and give it sole access to the folder by name after creating a shortcut then use the run as feature :) ---

Drilla Shinra Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.08.16 14:08:00 - [19] Originally by: Xorus Originally by: Ms Freak Originally by: Xorus Considering that you can easily stop an application from scanning certain folders with NTFS permissions its not really a solution, i'm sure there will be an update in the future that will change a lot of the hole's in EVE, just have patience :) Actually, in Americas Army (a game my entire corp plays on a regular basis) you MUST have admin permissions to play the game BECAUSE of this very fact. Punkbuster 4tw if you ask me. Remove admin from the access list on the folder with your sensative stuff in then create a second admin account and give it sole access to the folder by name after creating a shortcut then use the run as feature :) So in other words you've played alot of competitive Counter Strike? Seek not to bar my way, for I shall win through - no matter the cost!
Amerame Section XIII	Posted - 2006.08.16 14:12:00 - [20] If some people are making hundreds of thousands of $ from the game, they'll find their way through this protection. Actually from what I heard from UO is that punkbuster is cool to deal with the small hack a 12 year old boy will download but it's definitely not a 100% protection against hack. The REAL problem is that a dumb bot is close to as efficient as a regular player in empire, there is no bot problem in 0.0 ! I think the bot problem is a game mechanism problem.

Cheyenne Shadowborn Caldari Citizens of E.A.R.T.H. E.A.R.T.H. Federation	Posted - 2006.08.16 14:19:00 - [21] Originally by: Amerame If some people are making hundreds of thousands of $ from the game, they'll find their way through this protection. Actually from what I heard from UO is that punkbuster is cool to deal with the small hack a 12 year old boy will download but it's definitely not a 100% protection against hack. The REAL problem is that a dumb bot is close to as efficient as a regular player in empire, there is no bot problem in 0.0 ! I think the bot problem is a game mechanism problem. First of all: Damn this forum. I am posting it again because its so fubar. PB is very similar to a virus scanner. If somebody collects memory and file signatures for the hacks then it can find them. Yes, this means it will not catch home-grown hacks and its not 100% safe, same as McAfee usually won't detect a home-grown trojan unless its in the wild and they get to analyze it. But that does not mean PB does not work. If all the people get excluded who download Eve-Autominer or stuff off ebay, that will get rid of 98% of the macro miners. The amount of people who have a clue and who make their own hacks is rather neglectible compared to script kiddies who download and use others stuff. On what a foreposter said about hacking the client: Its equally easy to verify MD5 checksums for the files, ESPECIALLY because Eve requires a) an internet connection b) to CCP and c) enforces the same set of client files (same version) anyway to play. As long as the checksum verification code can not be circumvented, checksums will be THE solution to ANY hacks of the client code base. --
Haniblecter Teg F.R.E.E. Explorer EVE Animal Control	Posted - 2006.08.16 14:33:00 - [22] **, Punkbuster. Thos POS program has booted me from countless BF2 servers because I used 'inappropriate langauge'. , that, . ---------------------------------------- Friends Forever**
Epsilon 1	Posted - 2006.08.16 14:40:00 - [23] It is indeed retarded, but it seems CCP doesn't care about it, no matter how many petitions you fill. Originally by: Steven Gerrard Why do those minmatarians throw their ships together from toilet paper and junk?
EnEs TaLuNdZiC	Posted - 2006.08.16 14:41:00 - [24] Originally by: Bhaal Edited by: Bhaal on 16/08/2006 11:59:22 If not EVE, the next MMO CCP makes will most likely have something like that, if you don't like it, don't buy a sub... I have a feeling many of the top MMO's of the future will have something of this nature scanning your HD... It's inevitable IMO... And if you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to worry about... If you're against it, it's probably because you're a cheater of some kind... Ohhh Yeeeees, and we alllll can start working for Sony & Co, Creating those nice rootkits. Suggesting something like this is plainly stupid. Game Made By Chinese Communist Productions The Game, Where The Devs Think They Are VIP! In other words, We don't Give A VoK about your opinion!
Bhaal Minmatar M. Corp Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.08.16 14:42:00 - [25] Edited by: Bhaal on 16/08/2006 14:42:36 Originally by: EnEs TaLuNdZiC Originally by: Bhaal Edited by: Bhaal on 16/08/2006 11:59:22 If not EVE, the next MMO CCP makes will most likely have something like that, if you don't like it, don't buy a sub... I have a feeling many of the top MMO's of the future will have something of this nature scanning your HD... It's inevitable IMO... And if you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to worry about... If you're against it, it's probably because you're a cheater of some kind... Ohhh Yeeeees, and we alllll can start working for Sony & Co, Creating those nice rootkits. Suggesting something like this is plainly stupid. Game Made By Chinese Communist Productions The Game, Where The Devs Think They Are VIP! In other words, We don't Give A VoK about your opinion! Then you probably won't be playing MMO's in 5 years or so... It's going to happen, and it about f'ing time IMO... ------------------------------------------------ Current Hobby other than EVE My Hero
Noriath	Posted - 2006.08.16 14:43:00 - [26] The real issue with macro mining is that CCP has designed the mining system with multi-account use in mind. They don't want a system that acctually requires you to pay attention to your mining, because it would hurt their business if people couldn't run 5 barges at the same time anymore. Macroers just come as an unwanted consequence to trying to pull in multi-account miners by having a system especially designed so you can run a ton of accounts. I mean it's no accident that the cycle time on stripminers is a lot longer then on regular miners...
Argenton Sayvers	Posted - 2006.08.16 14:44:00 - [27] Originally by: Bhaal And if you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to worry about... If you're against it, it's probably because you're a cheater of some kind... Please send your all personal information, including your picture and good pictures of any Hot girlfriends / sisters to: [email protected] We will carefully analize this data and pass judgement on wether you are an evil macro-using terrorist and threat to world peace in general. Since you are one of the good guys, you dont have anything to hide.
EnEs TaLuNdZiC	Posted - 2006.08.16 14:46:00 - [28] Originally by: Bhaal Edited by: Bhaal on 16/08/2006 14:42:36 Originally by: EnEs TaLuNdZiC Originally by: Bhaal Edited by: Bhaal on 16/08/2006 11:59:22 If not EVE, the next MMO CCP makes will most likely have something like that, if you don't like it, don't buy a sub... I have a feeling many of the top MMO's of the future will have something of this nature scanning your HD... It's inevitable IMO... And if you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to worry about... If you're against it, it's probably because you're a cheater of some kind... Ohhh Yeeeees, and we alllll can start working for Sony & Co, Creating those nice rootkits. Suggesting something like this is plainly stupid. Game Made By Chinese Communist Productions The Game, Where The Devs Think They Are VIP! In other words, We don't Give A VoK about your opinion! Then you probably won't be playing MMO's in 5 years or so... It's going to happen, and it about f'ing time IMO... You'r stupid enough for this, so here we go, HEARD ABOUT REVERSE ENGINEERING EVER ? Game Made By Chinese Communist Productions The Game, Where The Devs Think They Are VIP! In other words, We don't Give A VoK about your opinion!
Zaldiri Caldari Automated Industries	Posted - 2006.08.16 14:49:00 - [29] The stackless python thing realy needs to be closed up by CCP. Other than that, most of the farmers you see today, are acctualy not using macros, just sweatshop workers. Farming in this manner is not disallowed by CCP. What is dissallowed is trading in game items for out of game money, and it is this which must be targetted. Especialy the buyers. ----------------------------------------------- Admiral of King Frieza's Super Saiyan fleet.
Eternal Fury Caldari Brotherhood of Light	Posted - 2006.08.16 14:56:00 - [30] All I'lll say is this. Programs that would keep me from useing macro's would be very harmful to me. Why? I've played since January, and not once has a macro miner affected me. I'm not a miner, so they arn't takeing up the roid's i'd use, I've only see blatant macro miners a few times, mainly becuase i'm too busy playing the game. As for the macro side, I use a Logitech G15 keyboard that allows me to store keypresses for easy use. So i have keys that turn my modules on, keys that fire all my weapons at the press of one button, or my weapons in trio's, or in pairs, for storeing Passwords to cans and so on. One of these "anti-cheating" programs would seriously curtail my fun in the game. I've heard too many horror stories of those "ant-cheating" programs screwing up the game for people in other mmo's. Why don't you guys just ask for a larger ingame GM team. This way they'd have more people to police the server, more people to help us out, and more people to quickly investigate reports of macro miners. More GM's would benefit everyone(other then CCP's pocket book by a few percent) and we'd all win. Brotherhood of Light. Small Corp, Big Fun. Wanna join?



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