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Lala Ru
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Posted - 2006.08.20 01:34:00 -
[1]
One question that I'm sure is on everyone's mind: How do we determine if someone is trustworthy?
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Kitty O'Shay
Tharsis Security
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Posted - 2006.08.20 01:47:00 -
[2]
You can't.
But, past experience is the best predctor of future trust. So if you're dealing with someone, and they prove trustworthy, you have a good chance of them continuing to be trustworthy.
Until they walk away with it all! 
Remember these 2 rules:
1) Don't invest what you can't afford to lose.
2) TANSTAAFL
--
1 in 10 chance to win a battleship! |
Devilish Ledoux
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2006.08.20 01:54:00 -
[3]
 Originally by: Kitty O'Shay
You can't.
Took the words right out of my mouth. As long as being trustworthy is in someone's best interests to be honest, then you can trust them. If it's not, then you probably can't. Past performance does not guarantee future results.
The Billionaire Buccaneer (A Blog for the Bored) |
Kerushi
Caldari
JuBa Corp
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Posted - 2006.08.20 01:56:00 -
[4]
stop trusting alts to start with
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LousyPccGame
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Posted - 2006.08.20 02:08:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Devilish Ledoux
Originally by: Kitty O'Shay
You can't.
Took the words right out of my mouth. As long as being trustworthy is in someone's best interests to be honest, then you can trust them. If it's not, then you probably can't. Past performance does not guarantee future results.
Agree completely with the both of you!
[stamp of approval]Ö
Nice siggy Evilish Ledoux, need a locator agent ASAPÖ
Originally by: Who CaresÖ
FUNÖ...remember that module CCP? - ♥ SoonÖ
Or do you still opress with Sinister Bans ?
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Ricdics
Corporate Research And Production Pty Ltd
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Posted - 2006.08.20 02:22:00 -
[6]
You can't................
Insured Research and Production Services
Queues |
Heikki
Gallente
Wreckless Abandon
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Posted - 2006.08.20 02:41:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Lala Ru
How do we determine if someone is trustworthy?
Nobody is absolutely trustworthy.
One practical start is: if the fellow has been trusthworthy when handling assets worth of XXX, he is probably trustworthy handling assets less than that. You also might somewhat safely take the risk of having him handle assets slighly over XXX.
-Lasse
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Dark Shikari
Caldari
Imperium Technologies
Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2006.08.20 03:08:00 -
[8]
This is why we need contracts.
Contracts that can say things like "XXX cannot withdraw more than 1 billion from corp wallet per month without shareholder approval."
--[23] Member--
Originally by: DB Preacher
The only time BoB's backs are to the wall is when Backdoor Bandit is in local.
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Sir Juri
Caldari
Federation of Freedom Fighters
Executive Outcomes
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Posted - 2006.08.20 03:13:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Dark Shikari
This is why we need contracts.
Contracts that can say things like "XXX cannot withdraw more than 1 billion from corp wallet per month without shareholder approval."
true, true
damn need to make a new sig... |
Drag Queen
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Posted - 2006.08.20 04:37:00 -
[10]
So many things going pear shaped and so few people to be trusted ...
Thing is who is next to be identified as a scammer?
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Haniblecter Teg
F.R.E.E. Explorer
EVE Animal Control
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Posted - 2006.08.20 04:43:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Haniblecter Teg on 20/08/2006 04:43:25
Originally by: Lala Ru
One question that I'm sure is on everyone's mind: How do we determine if someone is trustworthy?
The new contracts system will have a method to track peoples performances in contracts. Trust only those that have built up superlative performance in contracts, before you trust an IPO by them.
----------------------------------------
Friends Forever
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mazzilliu
Caldari
SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2006.08.20 07:13:00 -
[12]
just make sure that whatever they lose by breaking your trust is greater then what they could gain by keeping it. if you can make sure of that and you aren't dealing with a stupid person then you can trust them 
will still draw sigs 4 isk click here |
Feta Solamnia
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Posted - 2006.08.20 08:38:00 -
[13]
for me, there is one single entity that is trustworthy in eve, that's NAGA.
period, won't trust any large sum of isk to anyone else, including BIG.
Originally by: Oveur
I have access to all market data. Believe me, we have not reached anything close to deflation yet.
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Femintaki
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.08.20 14:09:00 -
[14]
There are a few people in Eve who have potentially proven themselves to be trustworthy, but I agree there are very few that one could ever consider completely so.
However, trust is, by its very nature, a personal thing - there are few if any who could ever achieve trust from the entire community.
Quote:
Do or do not - there is no try!
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Naphtalia
Millennium
E.R.A
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Posted - 2006.08.20 14:11:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Femintaki
There are a few people in Eve who have potentially proven themselves to be trustworthy, but I agree there are very few that one could ever consider completely so.
However, trust is, by its very nature, a personal thing - there are few if any who could ever achieve trust from the entire community.
QFT
and: "OMG I agree with a BoB member" <3 
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Malachon Draco
eXceed Inc.
Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.08.20 16:47:00 -
[16]
Why does this forum even exist?
I find it hard to believe anyone would lend out money in a game without hard rules about that kind of gameplay. Don't trust anyone with your money, ever, unless there are solid rules that protect you.
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Obaspacula
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Posted - 2006.08.20 16:56:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Malachon Draco
Why does this forum even exist?
I find it hard to believe anyone would lend out money in a game without hard rules about that kind of gameplay. Don't trust anyone with your money, ever, unless there are solid rules that protect you.
QFT!!
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Celedris
Tharsis Security
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Posted - 2006.08.20 18:15:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Celedris on 20/08/2006 18:17:34
Edited by: Celedris on 20/08/2006 18:15:36
The rule of trust, both in game and in life, is simple: collateral. Collateral can take many forms, whether it be property, reputation, or the threat of force.
Can you trust someone to pay back a monetary loan? Its a good bet they will if you hold a piece of their property of equivalent value.
Can you trust a pirate to honor his ransom? Maybe if the pirate corp has a good reputation for honoring them.
Can your alliance trust another alliance to uphold an agreement? Perhaps if your alliance has enough military strength to threaten them.
People decided to give Cally's owner hundreds of billions of isk with no more collateral than the reputation of Cally at stake. A fool and his money are soon parted.
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Obaspacula
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Posted - 2006.08.20 18:31:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Celedris
Edited by: Celedris on 20/08/2006 18:17:34
Edited by: Celedris on 20/08/2006 18:15:36
The rule of trust, both in game and in life, is simple: collateral. Collateral can take many forms, whether it be property, reputation, or the threat of force.
Can you trust someone to pay back a monetary loan? Its a good bet they will if you hold a piece of their property of equivalent value.
Can you trust a pirate to honor his ransom? Maybe if the pirate corp has a good reputation for honoring them.
Can your alliance trust another alliance to uphold an agreement? Perhaps if your alliance has enough military strength to threaten them.
People decided to give Cally's owner hundreds of billions of isk with no more collateral than the reputation of Cally at stake. A fool and his money are soon parted.
Can I offer you a nice cold glass of lemonade? Cally had a very good rep in the beginning, even he admits he started it legit, so that invalidates your argument. Heres a saying for you, opinions are like..... I'll let you finish it off.
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Pizi
Gallente
Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2006.08.20 18:39:00 -
[20]
so you didnt learn anything, still beleaving Callys brabble
hmmm
evemaile me i have a cheap outpost for sale in Jove space
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Celedris
Tharsis Security
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Posted - 2006.08.20 18:44:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Obaspacula
Cally had a very good rep in the beginning, even he admits he started it legit, so that invalidates your argument.
How does that in any way invalidate my point about basing trust off sufficient collateral? Please elaborate.
Cally's owner just decided that half a trillion isk was worth more than that character's reputation. Anyone who decided that Cally's reputation was sufficient collateral for their billions of isk simply made a poor risk assesment.
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Obaspacula
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Posted - 2006.08.20 18:46:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Pizi
so you didnt learn anything, still beleaving Callys brabble
hmmm
evemaile me i have a cheap outpost for sale in Jove space
Okay, lets cast aside the idea that EIB was started legit. This game is still a lemonade stand because of the 15 year old elitist rhetoric. Hmmm, how many lemonades for that outpost?
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Lala Ru
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Posted - 2006.08.20 19:10:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Obaspacula
Can I offer you a nice cold glass of lemonade? Cally had a very good rep in the beginning, even he admits he started it legit, so that invalidates your argument. Heres a saying for you, opinions are like..... I'll let you finish it off.
Wouldn't that make his argument even more valid? Even someone with a supposedly good reputation can be a scammer.
Perhaps the collateral can be in RL cash, made in such a way that its not cash for ISK, but if someone decides to run with the RL cash he can be sued in RL. That might make things foolproof, but I don't know if there's a way to do that within RL laws and the EULA.
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Obaspacula
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Posted - 2006.08.20 19:23:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Lala Ru
Originally by: Obaspacula
Can I offer you a nice cold glass of lemonade? Cally had a very good rep in the beginning, even he admits he started it legit, so that invalidates your argument. Heres a saying for you, opinions are like..... I'll let you finish it off.
Wouldn't that make his argument even more valid? Even someone with a supposedly good reputation can be a scammer.
Perhaps the collateral can be in RL cash, made in such a way that its not cash for ISK, but if someone decides to run with the RL cash he can be sued in RL. That might make things foolproof, but I don't know if there's a way to do that within RL laws and the EULA.
No brining real life in has made this scam so anticlimactic. Just game mechanics to facilitate a good economy thats what is needed.
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Argenton Sayvers
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Posted - 2006.08.20 19:34:00 -
[25]
Betrayal of trust is like IWAY or EoE.
When it happens to pros, they think about the true meaning of the game mechanics, understand how to use it at optimal performance, think what can be done to counter it, and act accordingly. If it happens to them a second time, they will put the blame on themself.
Scrubs live in their own little world where a 2003 character is automatically trustworthy. When they get rolled over by a "scam", they turn off their brain and cry for a nerf.
Trust can be backed by collateral.
The sad part is that people who made a bad judgement call about the nature of the collateral always blame the game mechanics for their failures, then accuse everyone who points that out to be "15 year old elitists".
Trust is something elaborate and deep. Like MTG. You cannot expect to be right everytime, not because of the mechanics, but because you can be wrong about how the mechanics really are. Forum superstars are partially responsible for it, because they tought scamming ruins a character. (I remember seeing posts trying to disprove it). It doesnt. Scamming makes you are hero.
You can enjoy having to actually think to see how things are, you can try to pretend that things are like you want them to be (Corp history + NPC standing + proper spelling and paragraphs => OMG Trustworthy) or you can give your brain into the hands of others who do the judgement calls for you (GM scam police). Whatever. Eve is not as universal as life, so it doesnt really matter.
Rex keeps bragging about how he knew that the system is totally broken. And i think i have to agree. Stay out of everything related with trust, unless you actually know what you are doing.
Blessed is he who does not play by arbitrary rules.
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Taurequis
Waylander 01
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Posted - 2006.08.21 14:53:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Naphtalia
Originally by: Femintaki
There are a few people in Eve who have potentially proven themselves to be trustworthy, but I agree there are very few that one could ever consider completely so.
However, trust is, by its very nature, a personal thing - there are few if any who could ever achieve trust from the entire community.
QFT
and: "OMG I agree with a BoB member" <3
But those who proove themselve again and again to finally reach the trust of almost the entire eve community have an asset on their hands that is more valuable then any amount of isk.
Isk is nothing.
Skill Points, Reputation, Knowledge and Connections are real power.
Best Regards,
Taur
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static zero
Minmatar Industrial Development Association
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Posted - 2006.08.21 19:17:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Taurequis
But those who proove themselve again and again to finally reach the trust of almost the entire eve community have an asset on their hands that is more valuable then any amount of isk.
Agreed. I would argue that part of the problem, at the moment, is that it's still not terribly difficult to earn that trust from some in the EVE financial community. I see many pilots lining up for IPO's, but I wonder how many really do their homework before handing over the cash.
Also, scant attention is paid to CEO trustworthiness in corporate reporting. Just checking the EGSE financial reports, they ask the same basic questions: How old is the CEO, in game terms? What's the business plan? Can the CEO spell and write clearly? All important things, but they often don't fully answer the question "Is this person trustworthy?" I wish there was better independent reporting.
Additionally, by their very nature, alts permit scammers to ply their dark art again and again. There is no way to verify that an alt belongs to any particular person. (Nor do I think there should be.) However, this makes it very easy for known scammers to strike again and again.
And some scams you're simply not going to see coming. Who would've thought Enron would tank, for example?
Investors may need to realize, as I've come to realize, that they need to protect themselves better. Here are some rules I've established for myself, and I present them as suggestions to the community:
Never invest more than you're prepared to lose.
Don't leave your money with someone you don't trust.
Do your homework. If you don't know whether to trust a corp or its CEO, ask to interview them.
Ask around the financial community for additional opinions.
YMMV with these suggestions.
In the real world, equity investments are not protected against loss. Nor do I think they should be in EVE. The investor is the only person responsible for his or her wallet.
-static zero |
Omber Zombie
Gallente
Frontier Technologies
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Posted - 2006.08.22 06:02:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Taurequis
Reputation, Intel and Connections are real power.
Sorry Taur, had to fix that for you. Skillpoints mean bugger all, and game knowledge only goes so far.
On the topic of trust - The best thing about this game is that there is no safety net. As much as that allows people to scam their little hearts out, it also means that when you do trust someone, a real community bond is formed, and that is something no other MMO has. Risk in eve allows the Reward part to be more satisfying than in any other game on the market, but conversely means that if you miss that reward, it hurts a lot more.
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Bermag
Point-Zero
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Posted - 2006.08.22 09:08:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Kitty O'Shay
You can't.
But, past experience is the best predctor of future trust. So if you're dealing with someone, and they prove trustworthy, you have a good chance of them continuing to be trustworthy.
Until they walk away with it all!
Remember these 2 rules:
1) Don't invest what you can't afford to lose.
2) TANSTAAFL
best advice you can get, especially the TANSTAAFL one (which I live my life after).
You never get anything for free. If an offer is to good to be true it is usally not. Scammers feed on people's own greed. It is the dream of quick and easy money that will fool people into scams.
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Slaaght Bana
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.08.22 18:40:00 -
[30]
I offer myself up to the community as someone who is completely trustworthy.
... the only problem is that I'm too lazy to do anything with your investements, so the best I can offer is to hold onto it for you and give it all back again. 
I thought of trying to build up trust with people by getting them to give me 1 mill, then I give it back, 10 mill, 100 mill etc. Problem is people would just be waiting for the scam to drop at 100 bill or suchlike.
Hmm, about the only way would be to meet shareholders for a beer up in London, show them some ID, driving licence, etc, so they know they could come and find me in RL if it all went pear shaped.
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