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Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.08.21 08:33:00 - [1] Been reading about the EIB scam, and CCPs general treatment of such scams (just simple curiosity, I had no part in any of it, in fact I only heard about EIBs existence this weekend). My conclusion is simple, this forum should not exist. Why? 1. CCP is clearly unwilling and/or unable to deal with scams in this area of gameplay. 2. There are no existing ingame features that protect people from scams at all. So CCP is not prepared to deal with scams in the game. However, by having this forum they add a 'suggestion of legitimacy' to the whole IPO/bank part of the game. Legitimacy that according to their own rules does not exist in any way/shape or form. IMO if CCP wants to make sure that people understand they are on their own here, everything is at their own risk, then they should close this forum down.
Heikki Gallente Wreckless Abandon	Posted - 2006.08.21 08:53:00 - [2] Originally by: Malachon Draco CCP is not prepared to deal with scams in the game I think they are already dealing. Basic related principle is about 'let players make the content'. If they promote pirating (murder & stealing of assets through ship PvP), why should't they promote the same through Market PvP? If you can't manage in 0.0, stay in safer Empire till you've learnt more. Same for IPOs; don't invest till you can handle it. Now, if your post had been along the lines of 'Players have shown that there is need for stock market, please give us tools to take it further', I would eagerly support. Especially if you came up with ideas what those tools could be (which is the hard part). -Lasse
FireFoxx80 Caldari E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2006.08.21 09:02:00 - [3] People got scammed in the EIB scam because they were greedy. Greedy and stupid. Sorry, but if you want this forum closed for that single reason, then you are a retard as well. In fact, send me 10m ISK and I can tell you how to identify scams within seconds... What I do the rest of the time.
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.08.21 09:03:00 - [4] Originally by: Heikki Originally by: Malachon Draco CCP is not prepared to deal with scams in the game I think they are already dealing. Basic related principle is about 'let players make the content'. If they promote pirating (murder & stealing of assets through ship PvP), why should't they promote the same through Market PvP? If you can't manage in 0.0, stay in safer Empire till you've learnt more. Same for IPOs; don't invest till you can handle it. Now, if your post had been along the lines of 'Players have shown that there is need for stock market, please give us tools to take it further', I would eagerly support. Especially if you came up with ideas what those tools could be (which is the hard part). -Lasse Let me give it to you straight. As far as I can see, there is NO SOLUTION aside from CCP *****ing down. Unless you want to make all corp theft illegal, want to make sure nobody has alts or second accounts, unless you are willing to do that, IPOs will ALWAYS BE SCAMMABLE. CCP won't enforce against scams, so that solution is not an option (not sure if they really could if they wanted to either). So the whole system should scream 'buyer beware'. But with the existence of this forum, CCP is giving a suggestion of legitimacy that is unwarranted. The forum should be eliminated.
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.08.21 09:08:00 - [5] Originally by: FireFoxx80 People got scammed in the EIB scam because they were greedy. Greedy and stupid. Sorry, but if you want this forum closed for that single reason, then you are a retard as well. In fact, send me 10m ISK and I can tell you how to identify scams within seconds... Note, I didn't even know the EIB existed until I read about it this weekend. I've not been scammed by it nor do I know anyone who has been. My time in Eve so far has been filled with getting T2 large guns (\o/ only 4 days to go!!!) and seeing what I need to get to fly dreads and carriers. Not stockmarket games. All I am saying is that the system is such that there is: - NO security - NO recourse - NO punishment for scammers In terms of stockmarket function, really a completely unworkable feature. In the real world, under these circumstances, there would be no market. Which is all fine, its just a game, and you can't expect a game to do everything right, but by the very existence of this forum, CCP is suggesting that in fact the stockmarket is viable. It is not. Don't kid yourself because some people chose not to scam that it is a viable investment. The forum should be closed as a signal from CCP that while players can participate if they so choose, it is an 'unsupported feature'.
FireFoxx80 Caldari E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2006.08.21 09:21:00 - [6] Take a look back in the dev blogs, there is one from Oveur which clearly explains that people will (ab)use the game mechanics given to them (it refers to the usage of bricks). What I do the rest of the time.
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.08.21 09:40:00 - [7] Originally by: FireFoxx80 Take a look back in the dev blogs, there is one from Oveur which clearly explains that people will (ab)use the game mechanics given to them (it refers to the usage of bricks). Did you even read my response?
Gaius Sejanus Gallente Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2006.08.21 09:59:00 - [8] This forum significantly pre-dates the IPO phenonema. So do in-game scams. Your whine is without merit, and based on both faulty facts and flawed conclusions. If you don't like IPOs, don't invest. IPO and related threads tend to be clearly marked, so you need not even read them.
Emily Spankratchet Minmatar Pragmatics	Posted - 2006.08.21 10:11:00 - [9] Originally by: Malachon Draco My conclusion is simple, this forum should not exist. There's more to the market than IPO scams. It's possible to buy and sell things in game that are not shares. I fail to see why this forum should not exist. It's only in the the last few months that this forum has been caught up in IPO fever. Before that, there was plenty of discussion about things other than IPOs. It may not have been the busiest forum, but it was a good one. Or are you just waving around wild ideas for rhetorical effect?
Tyrrax Thorrk Amarr Umbra Congregatio Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.08.21 10:30:00 - [10] What a dumb thread. http://eve.klaki.net/
FireFoxx80 Caldari E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2006.08.21 10:34:00 - [11] Originally by: Malachon Draco Originally by: FireFoxx80 Take a look back in the dev blogs, there is one from Oveur which clearly explains that people will (ab)use the game mechanics given to them (it refers to the usage of bricks). Did you even read my response? Did you read mine? I found the dev blog to which I refer (clicky) For the lazy: Originally by: Oveur That's the problem, we can never be certain before something hits Tranquility and anyone that claims they can foresee all changes and their effects is plain ignorant. How can one assume what 130.000 people will do with something? I don't know the answer, but I'm frequently asked that question. For us, it's simple. Well, not really, but bear with me. Let's assume we're adding a brick to the game. One person will take that brick and hit you on the head. The other guy will wait till you pass him by, then hit you on the head, to decrease the chance of retaliation. Then there is a third guy, having watched the behavior of some brick users, waits patiently at a distance for the first guy to hit the other guy over the head with the brick. Then throws the brick at the last guy's head and takes the loot from them all. Yet another guy will take it and try to trade it for profit. That means some guy is buying the bricks. Why? The guy buying got tired of hitting people with bricks and asked himself, maybe it would be better to build a house with all these bricks so nobody can hit me? Then yet another guy decides this house thing is a good idea, teams up with some friends and builds a castle. You can insert anything you like instead of that brick, it applies to everything that changes the game, people will do different things with the tools they are given. Investment scams, Escrow scams, Market scams; all exist because people use the market mechanics to do them. It's PVP without guns. The system works for 99.9% of players, some people have abused the trust and greed of others to make a tidy profit. I can see why people are leaving Eve over this, I'd be pretty upset/**ed if I lost almost everything I owned. But at the end of the day it is a game. So, I don't** want this forum closed. I've made some small investments and they have already paid me back many times over (But then again I am not greedy, the ROI is v.small). I've seen good discussions on market theory. I've also had some good chats about data mining and the like to recognise trade routes. So I am sorry, but you are wrong. What I do the rest of the time.
Ricdics Corporate Placement Holding	Posted - 2006.08.21 10:53:00 - [12] Originally by: Malachon Draco Originally by: FireFoxx80 People got scammed in the EIB scam because they were greedy. Greedy and stupid. Sorry, but if you want this forum closed for that single reason, then you are a retard as well. In fact, send me 10m ISK and I can tell you how to identify scams within seconds... Note, I didn't even know the EIB existed until I read about it this weekend. I've not been scammed by it nor do I know anyone who has been. My time in Eve so far has been filled with getting T2 large guns (\o/ only 4 days to go!!!) and seeing what I need to get to fly dreads and carriers. Not stockmarket games. All I am saying is that the system is such that there is: - NO security - NO recourse - NO punishment for scammers In terms of stockmarket function, really a completely unworkable feature. In the real world, under these circumstances, there would be no market. Which is all fine, its just a game, and you can't expect a game to do everything right, but by the very existence of this forum, CCP is suggesting that in fact the stockmarket is viable. It is not. Don't kid yourself because some people chose not to scam that it is a viable investment. Completely agreed with this part Quote: The forum should be closed as a signal from CCP that while players can participate if they so choose, it is an 'unsupported feature'. Hardly. Firstly this forum is used for more than just IPO's. Anyone who invests has to accept that IPO's are always a risky investment. They have to make a judgement based on the information at hand, and their abilities to determine their levels of trust for that character. While it would be fantastic for CCP to bring out various ways to limit risk in IPO's, they could never remove all risk from them. If risk = zero, then everyone suddenly makes huge amounts of cash on a win/win scenario. We just have to hope that CCP see's the level of effort we and a decent portion of the players are putting into IPO's and their willingness to play in this sandbox, and hopefully CCP will bring some in-game tools supporting this to an extent. Until that time, players have been innovative, designing their own tools in which to play Eve. I believe this is the core reason Eve is so successfull. The ability to basically do anything in game, no matter how insane. * Suicide Ganks * IPO's * In-game banks * Every single other innovative idea people use to manipulate the system to build upon the game. In other games, if a feature isn't in-game, it doesnt happen until the company decides to add that feature. In Eve, the tools are there to build upon your own features. If there is enough acceptance of your projects, and CCP see's the success it gives, they implement better ways of handling those projects. They have been doing this for years, and I am certain they will do the same with IPO type things in the future (if not already with the contracts system). Personally, this is why I love Eve. I can do something unique and unthought of, while in other games, everyone is simply following a predetermined path Insured Research and Production Services Queues
robacz Gallente	Posted - 2006.08.21 10:56:00 - [13] Originally by: Malachon Draco The forum should be closed as a signal from CCP that while players can participate if they so choose, it is an 'unsupported feature'. This forum is not for IPOs only, its basically forum for everything market/trade/economy releated in Eve. ___________ Buying/Selling: Implants, Cargo Expanders and more
Jenny Spitfire Caldari LoneStar Industries Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2006.08.21 11:00:00 - [14] Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 21/08/2006 11:01:20 Allow mains or players with high NPC standings to several NPC corps to announce venture capitals or IPOs. Anything else, lock. --------- In the blindness, a streak fiery thread violently cuts the horizon. Bleeding golden mists, engulfing the blindness from within. Burning the darkness. The touch of dawn.
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.08.21 11:17:00 - [15] Lol, you people are so gullible. Maybe I should start playing this part of the game and swindle a few billion out of others. People here are so naive its mindboggling. There is no reason not to scam you. No rules, no enforcement, no repercussions, all can be done through alts. A scammers dream. And yet the sheep still follow in pursuit of greed and mesmerized by their own fantasies. Oh well, I warned you. Have fun and don't cry when you lose.
Jozef K	Posted - 2006.08.21 11:23:00 - [16] I think someone got scammed pretty badly...
FireFoxx80 Caldari E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2006.08.21 11:26:00 - [17] Originally by: Malachon Draco Lol, you people are so gullible. Maybe I should start playing this part of the game and swindle a few billion out of others. People here are so naive its mindboggling. There is no reason not to scam you. No rules, no enforcement, no repercussions, all can be done through alts. A scammers dream. And yet the sheep still follow in pursuit of greed and mesmerized by their own fantasies. Oh well, I warned you. Have fun and don't cry when you lose. PMSL @ complete thread u-turn by OP. What I do the rest of the time.
robacz Gallente	Posted - 2006.08.21 11:27:00 - [18] Originally by: Malachon Draco Lol, you people are so gullible. Maybe I should start playing this part of the game and swindle a few billion out of others. People here are so naive its mindboggling. There is no reason not to scam you. No rules, no enforcement, no repercussions, all can be done through alts. A scammers dream. And yet the sheep still follow in pursuit of greed and mesmerized by their own fantasies. Oh well, I warned you. Have fun and don't cry when you lose. Huh? Stop smoking man. ___________ Buying/Selling: Implants, Cargo Expanders and more
Hori To Minmatar Rifter Corp	Posted - 2006.08.21 11:32:00 - [19] Edited by: Hori To on 21/08/2006 11:34:42 investing in a ipo is no different than flying a ship into a potentially hostile enviroment, you might earn some iskies, you might loose it. I really don't see the problem. If you want safe, I could suggest a certain mmo made by a corp called blizzard, but I won't. edit: spelling
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.08.21 11:32:00 - [20] Originally by: Jozef K I think someone got scammed pretty badly... Nope I never trust other people with my money unless I can call law enforcement and have them arrested if they try to defraud me. Like I said earlier, never invested a penny in anything in Eve. All I 'invest' in is guns, ships and ammo. I wouldn't even be here if the whining from idiots who got scammed didn't finally make it to the General discussion area. That's what prompted me to take a look here in the first place. But I guess this is where all the dreamers and sheep go to get robbed. Have fun.
robacz Gallente	Posted - 2006.08.21 11:39:00 - [21] Originally by: Malachon Draco I never trust other people with my money unless I can call law enforcement and have them arrested if they try to defraud me. Like I said earlier, never invested a penny in anything in Eve. All I 'invest' in is guns, ships and ammo. I wouldn't even be here if the whining from idiots who got scammed didn't finally make it to the General discussion area. That's what prompted me to take a look here in the first place. But I guess this is where all the dreamers and sheep go to get robbed. Have fun. Erm, you came here and requested this forum to be closed , so basically you were whinning. No one here wants this forum closed and I think most dont even have problems with IPO scams. You want to risk, then invest. You dont want to riks, dont invest. Simple as that. ___________ Buying/Selling: Implants, Cargo Expanders and more
Argenton Sayvers	Posted - 2006.08.21 11:40:00 - [22] He has a point. Ever since IPOs (and scams), this forum has been flooded with pathetic drama on the level of a telenovela.
Emily Spankratchet Minmatar Pragmatics	Posted - 2006.08.21 11:41:00 - [23] Edited by: Emily Spankratchet on 21/08/2006 11:42:30 Edit: Double posting FTL. Fix the forums, already.
Emily Spankratchet Minmatar Pragmatics	Posted - 2006.08.21 11:42:00 - [24] Originally by: Malachon Draco I wouldn't even be here if the whining from idiots who got scammed didn't finally make it to the General discussion area. That's what prompted me to take a look here in the first place. Ah, so that's why you don't understand that this forum isn't just about what you think it's about. Why you don't understand that the market is just more than IPOs and scams. Why you don't understand why this forum should continue to exist. Thanks for clearing that up.
Ricdic's Hoe	Posted - 2006.08.21 11:45:00 - [25] Originally by: Malachon Draco Originally by: Jozef K I think someone got scammed pretty badly... Nope I never trust other people with my money unless I can call law enforcement and have them arrested if they try to defraud me. Like I said earlier, never invested a penny in anything in Eve. All I 'invest' in is guns, ships and ammo. I wouldn't even be here if the whining from idiots who got scammed didn't finally make it to the General discussion area. That's what prompted me to take a look here in the first place. But I guess this is where all the dreamers and sheep go to get robbed. Have fun. This is where the people with half a brain go. Some of us prefer playing the industrial/trading part of the game. While people like you prefer to focus on PvP combat etc etc. Look on crime and punishment and watch the whiners complaining of lag, log-on tactics, suicide ganks, unhonoured ransoms. You guys are no better than us. The difference: The things in your forums happen hundreds of times a day, but are for much smaller amounts The things in our forums happen maybe once a month if not longer, and obviously involve more cash. Take is as you will, but very few, if any EIB investors have come onto these forums and complained about it. They knew the risks when they signed up, so they understand the loss and deal with it. When we are screwed, we simply talk about ways to limit it happening in the future. When your people are screwed, you spam petitions into CCP, and throw tantrums until you get your own way.
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.08.21 11:45:00 - [26] Originally by: Emily Spankratchet Originally by: Malachon Draco I wouldn't even be here if the whining from idiots who got scammed didn't finally make it to the General discussion area. That's what prompted me to take a look here in the first place. Ah, so that's why you don't understand that this forum isn't just about what you think it's about. Why you don't understand that the market is just more than IPOs and scams. Why you don't understand why this forum should continue to exist. Thanks for clearing that up. ok, fair enough. Though in my defense, I'd have to say looking at the first page of the forum and all the topics there, my conclusion that this forum is all about IPOs and scams is not completely unfounded
Tachy	Posted - 2006.08.21 11:45:00 - [27] EIB has very little to do with the market. The threads about it are in the wrong area of the forum. The existance of this forum part is useless as it rips the trades and the siscussions about them apart - and helps hiding the info. I guess it is easier to add a fluffy and unlinked forum section than adding a discussion part to the respective trade- and auctionthreads. --==*-- Even with nougat, you can have a perfect moment.
robacz Gallente	Posted - 2006.08.21 11:48:00 - [28] Originally by: Argenton Sayvers He has a point. Ever since IPOs (and scams), this forum has been flooded with pathetic drama on the level of a telenovela. I think pre-EIB scams had one or two threads max. This one was pretty big so it had big number of drama threads. Besides, easiest way to avoid IPO scam drama thread is not clicking on it. ___________ Buying/Selling: Implants, Cargo Expanders and more
Vargrh Gallente Stupid People Always Need Killing	Posted - 2006.08.21 12:46:00 - [29] Edited by: Vargrh on 21/08/2006 12:50:31 Most scams in game are possible because of the greed of the player being scammed, as said already here by a few people. The guy that sees '***********' Escrow of a Dredd Invulnerability Field for 35million that pops up every day after down time, amongst a cluster of ones for 350 for example, who quickly buys it without checking its a real sale, the group of guys mining in 0.1 in exhumers with only one defence ship against npc and nothing to deal with player pirate when a few of their players could be in defence - Its all loses due to greed, that a little less isk per hour but a little more checking or defence would negate. Take a risk, take more loses. Seeing as I'd not heard of this scam before, and hardly anyone I've spoken to has, it seems most people hadnt been caught up in it.... as most people are not suckers. People falling for these scams are the same guys that think a nigerian offering you 20% of 25million if you let them use your bank account for a day is a sure thing, or lulled into thinking they can successfully guess which cup a small metal ball is under when approached by some crazy ghetto trash with three styrafoam cups on the street, and double their $10 bet.
Buster Gonads	Posted - 2006.08.21 12:59:00 - [30] Originally by: Vargrh Edited by: Vargrh on 21/08/2006 12:50:31 Most scams in game are possible because of the greed of the player being scammed, as said already here by a few people. The guy that sees '***********' Escrow of a Dredd Invulnerability Field for 35million that pops up every day after down time, amongst a cluster of ones for 350 for example, who quickly buys it without checking its a real sale, the group of guys mining in 0.1 in exhumers with only one defence ship against npc and nothing to deal with player pirate when a few of their players could be in defence - Its all loses due to greed, that a little less isk per hour but a little more checking or defence would negate. Take a risk, take more loses. Seeing as I'd not heard of this scam before, and hardly anyone I've spoken to has, it seems most people hadnt been caught up in it.... as most people are not suckers. People falling for these scams are the same guys that think a nigerian offering you 20% of 25million if you let them use your bank account for a day is a sure thing, or lulled into thinking they can successfully guess which cup a small metal ball is under when approached by some crazy ghetto trash with three styrafoam cups on the street, and double their $10 bet. Most scams in game are nothing to do with greed, apart from the greed of the scammer. They are about people wanting their ISK to work for them. Maybe not even a huge amount, just a little profit. You have an extreme, cynical and stupid opinion of others, ironic considering your Corp name. You are the kind of person I avoid in life and in game, precisely because being around you and your ignorant opinions is so utterly depressing and soul destroying. I dare-say you are one of the idiots this game has attracted since launch because you can't spit out your contemptuous bile in other more enlightened MMOs.

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