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Multi-Character Exploitation

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FireAngel	Posted - 2003.10.12 17:47:00 - [1] PC Pirates are exploiting alternate characters. This is done by there main character being a pirate, and attacking PC's and then giving there loot to there alt to sell. This is exploitation! and makes the game unbalanced, unfair, and takes away some of the Role Playing aspects of the game. I can see 2 possible things which can be done about this. Dissable multi-characters, and allow only one character per credit card. Or make sec. rating shared between multi-characters. Meaning if you have one character with a -9 sec rating, they ALL get that -9 sec rating. Tell me what you think. AND PLEASE DO SOMETHING ABOUT THIS!!!
d ArkAngel	Posted - 2003.10.12 17:55:00 - [2] Yeah this is something I've been thinking about for quite a while. I think the multi char ness is both useless and damageing for the game. people can only train one skill at a time so multi chars for seperate existances are pointless anyway, so they are only use to take advantage of this loophole in the game it's not just pirates that can use this exploit. corp wars are often compromised by people using alts claiming to be newbies to join a corp before delcaring war on them so that they have a near undetecatble insider. all in all I can't see any real reason to keep multi chars. The problem of how to get rid of them is a big question, it would probably be best to merg them together and add all the skills to one char (chosen by the player as the one they want to live on...) I can go on all day with ways that this kind of thing is bad, but I'll leave it to the imagination, I can think of endless ways to exploit this hole, but no ways it can be really usefull.
Athan	Posted - 2003.10.12 17:56:00 - [3] Edited by: Athan on 12/10/2003 17:57:28 This is no different to them giving the loot to an entirely different, not same corp, character run by a different PERSON. Also not everyone pays using credit card (not to mention it's easy enough to get more than one, or get a friend/relative to let you use theirs...) to pay. The fact this can happen is just something everyone will have to put up with in EvE as there's NO way to absolutely prevent it. As for 'losing' the 3 chars per account. HELL NO. I have quite legitimate uses for all 3 of mine. -Ath -- http://big.wayland.dk/Lottery.asp - The BIG Lottery
FireAngel	Posted - 2003.10.12 18:01:00 - [4] Really I'd like to hear that "Legitamite" reason of yours??? Cause I CAN NOT THINK OF ANY.
Bradley	Posted - 2003.10.12 18:05:00 - [5] Good points Athan. How about a community faction standing? The more business you do with people who have a bad security rating the lower your community standing. Over time the standing will rise as long as you don't deal with too many 'bad people'. It would have no other impact on game play other than to show other players what kind of Eve life you lead. I am sure there are ways to exploit a standing like this but nothing is perfect.
SegFault	Posted - 2003.10.12 18:05:00 - [6] As Prime fiction starts to take hold in the game then surely this will degrade the value in the game, afterall, if there is ever a real war between races, how pointless will it be when there are dozens of people with chars on different sides of the war who can see all the planning going on on the other side, there will be zero strategy, and it'll be toe to toe fighting. it's a real waste of a good RP opertunity
FireAngel	Posted - 2003.10.12 18:13:00 - [7] good suggestion brad...but they can still delete there alt and recreate it with a good standing. I think the "global sec. rating" solution is the best. Where all your alts will share sec rating, which would prevent pirates from using alts to sell items for them. but still doesn't prevent the characters on two sides of a war issue....
Robert	Posted - 2003.10.12 18:21:00 - [8] in traditional RPG's (which is partialy the aim of eve) it is almost unheard of for a player to have more than one char in any single game/quest, and given the nature of eve where no-one has the ability to see who people are IRL then it makes the game all the more important to minimise the ability for people to exploit this kind of ability. I don't see this as specificaly something that is to be leveled against pirates, because I'm more than sure that there are pirates who play legitimatly, I have no problem with them generaly (the when the specificaly kill me it's a different matter <G>) but that's RPG, I just don't think that people should be able to participate in the game without the consequences of thier actions following them as an individual rather than the ability to in one button press remove the trail from existance.
Baldour Ngarr	Posted - 2003.10.13 00:50:00 - [9] Quote: in traditional RPG's (which is partialy the aim of eve) it is almost unheard of for a player to have more than one char in any single game/quest Don't be ridiculous. You never heard of multiple accounts? It's almost unheard of for any serious player of an RPG NOT to have more than one char. _______ "Soon" is an ancient Icelandic word meaning "some time before the next Ice Age."
Robert	Posted - 2003.10.13 00:55:00 - [10] Edited by: Robert on 13/10/2003 00:59:02 I was thinking of traditional non PC based RPG's and just because it works in other places dosn't mean it's best for eve-online. in a game which is "supposed" to provide scope for wars and prime fiction of the way they are leaning at the moment where people can participate rather than just spectate, then multi accounts are a desticnt dis-advantage. People are I suspect in almost no cases playing thier multi chars as seperate people, and are more likley simeply using it as seperate aspects of one person.
Die Harpie	Posted - 2003.10.13 02:51:00 - [11] Quote: Really I'd like to hear that "Legitamite" reason of yours??? Cause I CAN NOT THINK OF ANY. Any legitimate reason for your Alt? No wait, you can't think of any can you? Hypocrite... Die Harpie "I don't like food anymore!"
Roger Welco	Posted - 2003.10.13 09:07:00 - [12] i have a legitimate reasons for my 2 alts. Station/store managers. they are placed at the corps 2 main stores and make it easy to switch to for trading items, with out me needing to do 25 plus jumps to get there... oh and come back again..
Darsk'hul	Posted - 2003.10.13 09:19:00 - [13] Edited by: Darsk'hul on 13/10/2003 09:20:12 here is an idea : trading with a low sec guy lower your own security status ESPACIALLY if you acquire items for free. It's legitimate by the fact that you become an illegal retailler
Andvari	Posted - 2003.10.13 10:16:00 - [14] Quote: Edited by: Darsk'hul on 13/10/2003 09:20:12 here is an idea : trading with a low sec guy lower your own security status ESPACIALLY if you acquire items for free. It's legitimate by the fact that you become an illegal retailler Unless CONCORD is implanting cameras into characters' eyeballs it would be kind of stupid if I flew out into deep 0.0 space (for God knows what reason) to trade with some black market retailer and suddenly took a security status hit because of it. What would be a better idea that does essentially the same thing is to have items marked 'illegal', 'stolen', etc. when you fly near ships of a faction that you hold a poor standing with, they'll lock, cargo scan, and possibly open fire if your cargohold has stolen/illegal goods in it. Assuming you are in CONCORD space, you would take a security hit for being caught with these stolen goods. That way you still get people being marked as criminals for dealing with criminals, but you make it a game (see: fun) for them to try to smuggle their illegal goods and not get caught.
Darsk'hul	Posted - 2003.10.13 12:37:00 - [15] Well, i have to agree with you about the item flag features.
Adrial	Posted - 2003.10.13 18:59:00 - [16] my three characters are legit, My brother uses one, I use one as a pirate just to see what its like, and then I have my main which is specialised in EW. looseing that would be retarded there is no need.
Agent Shield	Posted - 2003.10.13 19:14:00 - [17] Edited by: Agent Shield on 13/10/2003 19:14:51 Legitimate raason to have 3 characters. I have one player (Agent Shield) that was CEO and was one player of a 2 member corp. We decide to join another corp, but we have millions of isk worth of items throughout the empire space. Quickest solution was to create a new char who would be CEO and a new char who would continue operations for additional income. CREW CEO runs the old corp now, and CREW Hauler does all the hauling now. These 2 new characters maintain the existing business in empire space where everyone can visit and for those who don't like going below .6 space. With those 2 new characters taking over the operations, I can now move on freely to what I want to do and that was to move 50 jumps away into 0.0 space. The benefit is that I am doing my thing with my main character, yet I have two little alts who handle all of the old business affairs that have been setup for the past few months. Yes, there are legitimate reasons to have an alt. If it wasn't for these 2 characters, I don't think too many people would come to 0.0 space to buy products from me, yet they would still continue to stay in empire where the existing business was being ran. Agent Shield
rajin	Posted - 2003.10.14 02:55:00 - [18] the idea on having 3 chars is not an exploit it is for people to explore the different venue's the different walk's of eve without his or her past haunting him/her what you dont know is many people who where here in beta are probly still here You have just recieved the Amish Computer Virus. Since the Amish don't have computers, it is based on the honor system. So please delete all the files from your computer. Thank you for you cooperation.
drunkenmaster	Posted - 2003.10.14 10:38:00 - [19] Edited by: drunkenmaster on 14/10/2003 10:39:33 removing the extra characters will not stop bad people from having alts. They'd simply use other accounts. Like I do. My main account is just me and the alt (mostly) everyone knows about. What I do with my other accounts would both surprise and shock many (nothing illegal, but nothing moral, either). The people that buy stuff from me and my team don't realise that they are buying from me until after the purcahse, if at all, so punishing people for dealing with the evil is impractical, as they would no longer be able to use the market without buying stuff from bad people. .
Dianabolic	Posted - 2003.10.14 12:40:00 - [20] Quote: Really I'd like to hear that "Legitamite" reason of yours??? Cause I CAN NOT THINK OF ANY. Station anchored alt for P2P sales when you are on the other side of the galaxy? Alts in different regions to check prices of items? Alt to enter into frigate wars that don't have 100m worth of implants in their heads? There's just 3, there are more.
Persephonie	Posted - 2003.10.14 23:43:00 - [21] Edited by: Persephonie on 31/10/2003 21:34:28 Just get rid of alts, ive said this before there is no legitimate reason for them other then ruining tactics. If people really want to play different types of characters then maybe they could play the fighter till they are bored and then ask CCP to save it and switch to a Miner character, they would not be able to switch back for at least a month (2 weeks) to save hastle to ccp and exploiting. They would not be directly able to select the characters and would have to mail ccp to switch over accounts. This would cut out on the cowardly corp robberies (by alts) and the spying you are complaining about. I have mentioned this in a previous post but it got a very bad reaction. I wonder if opinions have changed. The alt allows a guilt and blame free style of play which is good fun for the person with the alt only, and bad for the other players affected at the time who are using thier main characters.
Dark Nyte	Posted - 2003.10.15 09:14:00 - [22] Quote: Just get rid of alts, ive said this before there is no legitimate reason for them other then ruining tactics. If people really want to play different types of characters then maybe they could play the fighter till they are bored and then ask CCP to save it and switch to a Miner character, they would not be able to switch back for at least a month (2 weeks) to save hastle to ccp and exploiting. They would not be directly able to select the characters and would have to mail ccp to switch over accounts. This would cut out on the cowardly corp robberies (by alts) and the spying you are complaining about. Also i would no longer be able to post incognito lol but its a small price to pay. I have mentioned this in a previous post but it got a very bad reaction. I wonder if opinions have changed. The alt allows a guilt and blame free style of play which is good fun for the person with the alt only, and bad for the other players affected at the time who are using thier main characters. Don't take my alt away I like having an alt. I like to have a bad guy and a good guy whats wrong with that? And I don't want to have to delete months of learning to play the other char... and I want to play him when I feel like it not have to wait 2 weeks Anyway is this all so ppl can't be anonymous anymore ? why shouldn't I have a character whos in a corp an one that is a free roamer ? no ties ? Nearly everyone in my corp has (had they all seem to have left...) alts some for manufacturing some for mining etc? why not ? I also think that a player pirate giving his loot to an alt to sell is no big deal why get rid of alts for that you don't think its going well over the top or anything? corp robbery and spying ? Ok well at risk of sounding patronising don't give ppl access to your corp stuff unless you trust them! if you trust them and they betray you well sorry thats bad luck. But don't punish everyone else because you are afraid of losing something valuable. Just live with the risks of playing a game with other ppl. This is RPG and in RPG you have thieves (hell in AD&D its a character class). Anyway I say that having spying and thieves adds dimensions to the game they should even add a skill where your character can pretend to have a different name and skills to break into secure hangers (get some industrial espienage going!) And finaly "ruining tactics" ? one of the points of tactics is to ruin someone else's ? you shouldn't go around changing the rules of the game just because you don't like the way other ppl use the rules against you. Hey I have an idea why do you create an alt that is not in your corp and use him to vet other members and potencial members out see if they are willing to sell your corps stuff for a high price etc? counter-espiage ? a valid use for your own alt me thinks.
Baldour Ngarr	Posted - 2003.10.16 09:04:00 - [23] Quote: Just get rid of alts, ive said this before there is no legitimate reason for them other then ruining tactics. You were wrong then, and you're still wrong _______ "Soon" is an ancient Icelandic word meaning "some time before the next Ice Age."
Lagar	Posted - 2003.10.18 17:07:00 - [24] Edited by: Lagar on 18/10/2003 17:08:18 this is rediculus. why even bother? i mean its ofcorse people can use it wrongly but i dont se everyone with Pirate alts. some might but that is to enjoy their game play more and i do understand both the good and the bad of what you mean. but i think there is something wrong with your opinion.. i just dont know what yet
Zirconia	Posted - 2003.10.19 02:21:00 - [25] Let's see. one is not happy with pirates and is convinced that all alts are for nefarious uses so we make the outrageous complaint that using the 2nd or 3rd slot that the designers of the game intended and designed the game around is and 'exploit'. Please grow up. First of all honestly how many people are going to use their one and only slot for a needed but often tedious task such as research or corp ceo. I do realise there is some enjoyment in this however not enough to pay a monthly fee for as any other activities are going to be less capable at than those who select that as their role. It is far more likely that the most popular use for an alt is to provide that industrial pilot asleep and chained to the pilot seat for ones main char. the miner in his shiny battleship. As for your example of bad criminal guy essentially fencing his ill gotten loot. There is no differance if it is an alt or another character and should not be. Real life criminals have fronts. Your main objective is to eliminate an way of playing the game that you do not personally agree with - pirating. But is one integral to the game from its inception and is advertised as such. A bit like joining a church and marching to change their doctrine to suit your own ideas is it not?
Voltaire Leriel	Posted - 2003.10.19 04:37:00 - [26] yeah this is a reidullous post. do you really expect the devs to say "oh yeah your right, lets delete everyones alt characters" do you realize how many people would be mad about that? Anyone with an alt that had any time spent on that character at all would leave the game. its too late in release for sweeping changes like that. way too late. Personally i have 1 alt, my main is for mining, refining and combat. my alt is for production, science and hauling. are these pirate activities? should he be deleted because he is useful to me? I have always said that since you can train only 1 character at a time, the only reasons to have an alot are A)to spy on other corps B)to fence ill-gotten loot C)to be in two places at once. (being able to log off in 0.0 space and log on to build items in factories in 1.0) Option C is deinately the most common, BY A LONG SHOT!!!! Voltaire's EVE Online Desktop Wallpapers http://www.big-eve.com
d ArkAngel	Posted - 2003.10.20 01:15:00 - [27] I agree that this is a problem given that many people are using multi chars, but given the in ability to train multi chars when people says one for tradeing and one for something else... what't the advantage other than the fact that people will not know what your other char is? since the main complaint arround removal of chars is that people will lose there skills.... well how about a blending of chars rather than plain deletetion. if each account was told to nominate a single account as thier primary char, and have all the skill points from alt chars transfered to the primary. Yes I'm well aware that the devs will never touch this idea like so many of the ideas that come up in this lab, but i feel that people playing multi chars will never play them as chars in thier own right, especialy if prime fiction is to become a major force within the game. how can the minmitars have a war with the ammar when people can have alts on both sides of the conflict with absolute immunity? Pirates are almost completly unrelated to this problem, it's corporate wars / prime fiction wars that will continue to be unplayable in this game in it's current state. how can a game contain any poilitical / economic structure with no means of preservation of identity? Eve is a great game, and an even better concept. And I can't pretend for a moment that I am unhappy playing the game as it is (for the record I have alts, some of which may have even posted in this thread ;) ) but I feel that this aspect of the game has let a vast possibility slip by. how can any new player be trusted if it could just as easily be the alt of your enemy? Along with peoples ability to join and leave corporations without any possibility of penalty for disloyatly I feel that eve is missing out on a very large ability to become something more than another game that is played as a mindless entertainment, and moving into a legue of it's own. Who know's maybe next time arround things will be better thought out, after all they can learn from what has happened here :-) And untill then I guess it's time to go back to mining untill I go blind :-) Night all Me (and probably someone else too :-P )
Dark Nyte	Posted - 2003.10.21 14:12:00 - [28] Quote: I agree that this is a problem given that many people are using multi chars, but given the in ability to train multi chars when people says one for tradeing and one for something else... what't the advantage other than the fact that people will not know what your other char is? The advantage's 1) The Attributes you character has tp be suited for task ie 1 character with high perception for fighting and one with high intelligence for business Quote: since the main complaint arround removal of chars is that people will lose there skills.... well how about a blending of chars rather than plain deletetion. if each account was told to nominate a single account as thier primary char, and have all the skill points from alt chars transfered to the primary. I don't think this would be easily possible I'm not 100% certain but I don't think its possible to have non assigned points and if you are blending characters what happens if both characters have Industrial lv5 ? without unassigned points. Quote: how can any new player be trusted if it could just as easily be the alt of your enemy? you can't really trust them anyway they could take all you stuff anyway regardless of weather they are an alt or from another corp... CEO's have control over who has access to hangers so... Quote: Along with peoples ability to join and leave corporations without any possibility of penalty for disloyatly This game is not just about CEO's you know? why should someone be penalised because he doesn't like your corp ? it could be the most boring corp with a CEO who demands everyone one spends all their time mining for corp and is so paranoid he makes them take screen shots of there character selection page... But regardless of any off this I still have too say that there have been no good arguments for getting rid of alts The only arguments seem to be that people want to control other people. and make them play the way they think it should be played. And the way eve is going and the general feelings i am getting of the forums is that we are taking the teeth out of the game and whilst it may get easier it is also getting increadably boring. and we should be really carefull what we ask for!!!
Dark Nyte	Posted - 2003.10.21 14:15:00 - [29] Quote: for the record I have alts, some of which may have even posted in this thread pehaps the only valid reason to ban Alts is so people can't keep supporting their own argument in forums and thus making the developers think there is more support than there really is
Athan	Posted - 2003.10.21 14:29:00 - [30] Quote: Really I'd like to hear that "Legitamite" reason of yours??? Cause I CAN NOT THINK OF ANY. 1) Main char on which most training has been done, flits around all over the galaxy, fights, miners etc etc etc. 2) Science/Research alt, stays at Corp HQ doing research, and being generally on hand if we're doing any deals with other corps in empire space. Saves my main making a 50 jump trip back just for 5 mins work. 3) cough bit of a naughty gal, minimal training, but can be fun now and then. Indeed, that's exactly why she exists, to allow me to blow off some steam :). Still entirely legitimate. Certainly not used to scam anyone. -Ath, very belatedly replying. -- http://big.wayland.dk/Lottery.asp - The BIG Lottery

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