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Telemortation removed: can we address medical clone costs now?

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 2 post(s)
Rain6637 GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 23540	Posted - 2014.10.31 17:58:50 - [31] - Quote The problem with the 'by the way' mention at Vegas is it's really still empty words, just a maybe. not even a promise. President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub \| Twitter \|-ámk.III \| Imgur \| Evening Games Club: Casino concept redefined \|
Notorious Fellon 348	Posted - 2014.10.31 18:57:08 - [32] - Quote More SP gives me diversity in what ships I can fly. Sadly, I am better off training multiple specialized alts to reduce the death tax. Pointless mechanics are pointless. Remove the SP loss mechanic from podding and the death tax and clone upgrade nonsense. Not an enjoyable mechanic. It is just a waste of my time and hinders my desire to pvp on my main. Want ships to explode? Cool, stop taxing me for getting mine exploded. Crime, it is not a "career", it is a lifestyle.
Rain6637 GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 23551	Posted - 2014.10.31 20:41:23 - [33] - Quote Unezka Turigahl wrote: - Remove clone costs/updating (remove ISK sink) - Remove insurance (remove ISK faucet) Even stevens. for the record, I politely request a separate deal for those of us who are good at math and game mechanics. President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub \| Twitter \|-ámk.III \| Imgur \| Evening Games Club: Casino concept redefined \|
Valerie Tessel Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 693	Posted - 2014.10.31 22:16:13 - [34] - Quote Rain6637 wrote: Unezka Turigahl wrote: - Remove clone costs/updating (remove ISK sink) - Remove insurance (remove ISK faucet) Even stevens. for the record, I politely request a separate deal for those of us who are good at math and game mechanics. Right, I was under the impression that both of those are ISK sinks, insurance having been called such in a recent Dev blog. Support Aegis Destroyers: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=97610
DaReaper Net 7 1178	Posted - 2014.10.31 22:24:16 - [35] - Quote Rain6637 wrote: The problem with the 'by the way' mention at Vegas is it's really still empty words, just a maybe. not even a promise. Oh I know, I tend to take that with a grain of salt, until its in patch notes and LIVE on TQ it doesn't exist OMG Comet Mining idea!!! Comet Mining!
DarHammer Podesta Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 0	Posted - 2014.10.31 22:28:57 - [36] - Quote The analogy comparing it to driving a car in real life does not hold water. You pay for the car(taxed), fuel(taxed), insurance(heavily taxed), servicing of vehicle(taxed). We even pay for car registration(in australia directly handled by the goverment) and on top of that you pay for road tolls and insurance. Im sure there are more hidden costs I am not thinking of but there is 7 dips in to your pocket. Makes flying in eve look cheap to me. gl hf
Unezka Turigahl Det Som Engang Var 392	Posted - 2014.10.31 22:31:18 - [37] - Quote How is insurance an ISK sink? It pays out more ISK than you put in and you only buy it when you are certain your ship is going to explode. Therefor it is adding ISK into the game. A faucet. I think Rain6637 was probably objecting because the ISK saved by not having to deal with clones would be much smaller than the ISK lost by removing insurance. Or not. I dunno. I'm not a telepath.
Rain6637 GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 23553	Posted - 2014.10.31 22:42:28 - [38] - Quote you can't balance one against the other. I'm also pretty sure the ISK value of insurance is much, much higher. President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub \| Twitter \|-ámk.III \| Imgur \| Evening Games Club: Casino concept redefined \|
Tear Jar Emolgranlan Code Enforcement Branch 147	Posted - 2014.10.31 22:46:18 - [39] - Quote Rain6637 wrote: true, it's a smaller ISK sink for some, and it's not an ISK sink at all for many. it's like a risk, and it's as if people avert it. It indirectly benefits people who don't lose pods. Isk sinks make isk more valuable, and if you don't lose pods thats a straight benefit.
Rain6637 GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 23553	Posted - 2014.10.31 22:48:11 - [40] - Quote but that suggests that people should always avoid losing pods, which leads to industry stagnation and no demand. stay with me, I'm moving a bit fast. You're about to say most of the ISK killed in the game is in Jita, and high sec. But that's a bad statistic because the only reason so much ISK is in Jita and highsec in the first place is the expectation that they won't lose ISK by being there. keep thinking about what I just said until you have a eureka moment, because until you do it means you simply don't get it. President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub \| Twitter \|-ámk.III \| Imgur \| Evening Games Club: Casino concept redefined \|

Serene Repose 1585	Posted - 2014.11.01 00:01:44 - [41] - Quote Welcome to Inventing Problems As We Go Hour. I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility toward every form of tyranny over the mind of man.-á
Mharius Skjem Opacity Circles 37	Posted - 2014.11.01 00:05:56 - [42] - Quote Something needs to be done about high clone costs. But there still needs to be some serious consequences for pod loss. Perhaps something along the lines of the jump fatigue mechanic, increasing the risk of sp loss if you repeatedly die. Eve needs to stay brutal in order to stay loved. A recovering btter vet, with a fresh toon and a determination to like everything that CCP does to Eve...
Rain6637 GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 23555	Posted - 2014.11.01 00:28:31 - [43] - Quote I'm all for the "you could lose real stuff in EVE" thing too. But don't you think ISK satisfies that requirement (and does it have to be SP loss)? Imaginary ISK to irl money conversions are cited a lot. In comparison, how often is SP loss typically mentioned outside of AT. I think the loss factor and EVE's reputation will be preserved through the reduction of med clone cost and SP loss. If anything med clone loss is one of those things that prevents greater ISK loss. I think if med clone costs were drawn back further, it would result in ISK spreading a little further out from high sec, and being put in harm's way. Let's be honest, lowsec PVP still has a warm blankie of protection in Sec hits. I think that attitude would spread to bubble country if SP loss wasn't such a thing. Ships are an entry fee to a gaming experience. Medical clone fees are a redundant fee to maintaining a character on the server. Pod loss still has the drawback of losing all implants, that are likely disproportionately expensive, and come from another player's gameplay efforts... President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub \| Twitter \|-ámk.III \| Imgur \| Evening Games Club: Casino concept redefined \|
Arronicus Bitter Lemons Brothers of Tangra 1209	Posted - 2014.11.01 01:49:05 - [44] - Quote DaReaper wrote: Its something they are discussing now, in addition to a chance to have 'perma death' and possible add up upgrade modifiers for clones. I think an example was givien that for perma death you could pay for a clone that trains like 3X's faster, but the risk is if you die.. then you die. I don't think this has any realistic chance of entering the game. People will go with minmax (permadeath) clones, thinking they can get away with it by using that for 6 months or something to rapidly skill up, or even just thinking that if they dont play in null, they won't get podded. Something will go wrong; lag, highsec podgank, etc, and they will quit Eve since their character died. Sure, they were naive, or sloppy, or the game lagged, but the end result is the same, people quitting Eve, and that's the bottom line. Not to mention these clones would be exploited for pve/industry activities and cripple any edge of older indy characters, by allowing new ones to become just as effective in 1/3 the time.
Vincent Athena V.I.C.E. 2951	Posted - 2014.11.01 04:08:27 - [45] - Quote I guess I don't understand why this stops death cloning. 1) You set you med clone to your home station 2) You go on a roam, or to a big battle 3) You lose your ship. Then, for convenience, you lose your pod. 4) POOF! You have teleported back to your home base where you can get a new ship without having to do several jumps in a pod. I remember once on a roam the FC said he was really, really needed back at the corp home base, and had the fleet pod him. After CCP makes the change, will not the above still be possible? http://vincentoneve.wordpress.com/
Rain6637 GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 23559	Posted - 2014.11.01 04:11:17 - [46] - Quote yeah, but only that. to set the med clone location, you have to be at the location first. President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub \| Twitter \|-ámk.III \| Imgur \| Evening Games Club: Casino concept redefined \|
Valerie Tessel Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 693	Posted - 2014.11.01 05:17:48 - [47] - Quote Unezka Turigahl wrote: How is insurance an ISK sink? It pays out more ISK than you put in and you only buy it when you are certain your ship is going to explode. Therefor it is adding ISK into the game. A faucet. I think Rain6637 was probably objecting because the ISK saved by not having to deal with clones would be much smaller than the ISK lost by removing insurance. Or not. I dunno. I'm not a telepath. Most of the time, when insurance is purchased, it is not actually paid out, the term simply expires. This is not true for every pilot, and some get a payout worth more than their fit, but CCP have said that it is a sink because insurance purchased overall is greater than insurance paid out overall. From the perspective of the entire economy, then, it is a sink. http://themittani.com/news/ccp-buffs-t2-insurance Edit: Heh... I'm wrong... You're right. It is a faucet: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2hsqEvPGWQ#t=11m58s Apologies Support Aegis Destroyers: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=97610
Rain6637 GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 23566	Posted - 2014.11.01 08:54:22 - [48] - Quote the problem is going out in a T2 frigate for fun, using a 60 million ISK med clone (without implants). Insurance is moot. President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub \| Twitter \|-ámk.III \| Imgur \| Evening Games Club: Casino concept redefined \|
Primary This Rifter 4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation 135	Posted - 2014.11.01 09:27:18 - [49] - Quote Valerie Tessel wrote: You're right. It is a faucet My recently expired platinum Archon insurance has done little to offset this. (This is also the second time I've had insurance expire on that thing). Alt of [redacted on advice from a reputable internet spaceships lawyer]
Rain6637 GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 23566	Posted - 2014.11.01 09:37:19 - [50] - Quote and pretty much anything non-capital means you have no business flying it, due to ISK for just the clone. basically makes a character unplayable for all the fun ships in the game. (capitals are okay too ) President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub \| Twitter \|-ámk.III \| Imgur \| Evening Games Club: Casino concept redefined \|

BrundleMeth Caldari Provisions Caldari State 290	Posted - 2014.11.01 14:09:09 - [51] - Quote Aqriue wrote: Rain6637 wrote: I have a thread open in Assembly Hall, which is a little brash, but it's over an issue I unsubbed 3/4 of my accounts over. with a gang of nearly 1.3 Billion SP that can be welped at once, at the cost of half a PLEX to replace med clones, it's simply a bad idea. Suck it up. CCP should remove clone coverage all together, all ships should cause loss of SP very much like a T3 crusier when the ship goes pop, smaller ships cause greater loss of SP while bigger ships offer greater "protection" for the hitpoint trade off, and the only trade off is the isk involved for the price of the hull or the price of the pod (clone coverage). This is stupid and idiotic. Take away SP every time I lose a ship and I'll just sit docked and spend my time ship spinning and chatting...
Rain6637 GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 23656	Posted - 2014.11.02 01:06:19 - [52] - Quote I have a suspicion that a lot of balancing decisions are made based on a zoomed-out view of gameplay through statistics and graphs, and charts. The problem with trying to use those figures to make a decision about reducing or removing med clone costs is there's no way to know how much gameplay never happened because of med clone costs. you can't balance gameplay that never happens Also, once the decision is made to remove med clone costs, I doubt the figures would ever suggest the best move would be to reinstate med clone fees. President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub \| Twitter \|-ámk.III \| Imgur \| Evening Games Club: Casino concept redefined \|
DaReaper Net 7 1179	Posted - 2014.11.02 02:17:56 - [53] - Quote Rain6637 wrote: and pretty much anything non-capital means you have no business flying it, due to ISK for just the clone. basically makes a character unplayable for all the fun ships in the game. (capitals are okay too ) Exactly this. I wa sin the game design round table at eve vegas, and when they said they were thinking of tackling clones, like removing med clones, my first thought was, 'well thats stupid' but even before i finished that thought nearly everyone whooped. And then alot of reasons form players, not ccp, as to why this would be a brilliant idea, made me stop and go 'oh thats right' As i said already. Without implants, my clones are around 40m isk. So if i fly a ship under 40m, for pvp, even with insurance, i'll still get nailed for that 40m isk if i pop. It kinda deters people form low end ship play. A lot of players int hat room agreed with this thought. Remove clone cost and i can do a wider range of things. Some neat ideas were tossed out, but we will see that happens. as this is just drawing board stuff ccp said Also this can open up development of other types of clones. And as CCP Seagull said, they are looking at ALL mechanics of eve and might touch things we as players think are untouchable, because for a new player or even an old player stand point it makes no sense why x works this way. OMG Comet Mining idea!!! Comet Mining!
Rain6637 GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 23656	Posted - 2014.11.02 02:21:20 - [54] - Quote tbh I was hoping for med clone costs to be dropped with jump fatigue and Phoebe. Do what they will later, but just delete the fee in the meantime, because this causes real gameplay issues. President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub \| Twitter \|-ámk.III \| Imgur \| Evening Games Club: Casino concept redefined \|
Tau Cabalander Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs 4291	Posted - 2014.11.02 05:29:23 - [55] - Quote I'd rather clone costs be changed to a limit on trainable skill points for that clone, i.e. no skill loss. I'm not sure if CCP is willing to give-up on this ISK sink, though they have considered doing that before.
Summer Isle Autumn Industrial Enterprises 133	Posted - 2014.11.02 06:48:24 - [56] - Quote Rain6637 wrote: you can't balance one against the other. I'm also pretty sure the ISK value of insurance is much, much higher. here are a couple things that make sense, if removing it completely seems a bit much. a skill that reduces medical clone costs 18% per level, at V medical clone costs are reduced by 90%. 1/10 is reasonable. medical clone insurance that at platinum nets a 90% reduction of medical clone costs. the goal in either case is medical clone costs are reduced massively, and remain an unlimited sink with no benefit. No way. Don't make it a skill. Clone costs are a quality-of-life issue, and having to use skills to improve quality-of-life is a terrible way to implement a change. -áTalk is cheap, but Void S and Quake L are cheaper.
Rain6637 GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 23657	Posted - 2014.11.02 06:59:34 - [57] - Quote Yeah I agree. Sadly, things like skills are the most viable thing sometimes. Another way to associate some loss with the pod is a material or item that is consumed before renewing medical clones. Again, I don't like it either, but if it's something CCP thinks is a good idea for reasons (and they won't participate in player discussions as we approach day two and the end of page 3), then maybe it needs to be something they're familiar with using as sinks. Just something player-produced is the important part. If it's not medical clones directly (that have to be purchased from the player market), make the consumed item contribute to the player economy somehow, rather than just drain the circulating currency. Every time I think about this post-Phoebe situation, I get more dissatisfied with the state of basic gameplay. CCP, devs, we're able to communicate instantly in places like this thread. Surely there's something you could share here without breaking dev opsec. The reasons for a med clone cost, and how you'd like it to fit into the game in the future. Conceptual type stuff. Surely I don't have to wait until Fanfest or EVE Vegas to sit at a roundtable or ask you a question in person. Isn't a thread just as effective President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub \| Twitter \|-ámk.III \| Imgur \| Evening Games Club: Casino concept redefined \|
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode ISD Community Communications Liaisons 3450	Posted - 2014.11.02 07:08:35 - [58] - Quote Removed an off topic post. ISD Dorrim Barstorlode Captain Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department
lord xavier Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel 59	Posted - 2014.11.02 08:58:46 - [59] - Quote Maybe in nullsec it is a bit harsh with dictors in almost every fleet. but, 80m for a clone is not that bad. Lets also be real, most null sec entities members do not have more than 120m SP. So you are looking at 21m per clone. If you get podded 3x a day everyday in a 31 day period. It is roughly 1,953,000,000 isk. If you cant make that in nullsec in a single month. You are doing it wrong. You also will rarely get podded 3 times a day in nullsec. ****, whenever I was living in nullsec I would run +4 implants for what I was training. If you are getting podded enough to where you cant afford clones and ships you should re-evaluate your income source and try to correct what you are doing to get podded multiple times a day. I could afford my clones purely off ratting my clone costs 43m + 2x +4 implants and a 3% PG + ZCHL hardwirings.
Ama Scelesta 84	Posted - 2014.11.02 09:25:06 - [60] - Quote lord xavier wrote: Maybe in nullsec it is a bit harsh with dictors in almost every fleet. but, 80m for a clone is not that bad. Lets also be real, most null sec entities members do not have more than 120m SP. So you are looking at 21m per clone. If you get podded 3x a day everyday in a 31 day period. It is roughly 1,953,000,000 isk. If you cant make that in nullsec in a single month. You are doing it wrong. You also will rarely get podded 3 times a day in nullsec. ****, whenever I was living in nullsec I would run +4 implants for what I was training. If you are getting podded enough to where you cant afford clones and ships you should re-evaluate your income source and try to correct what you are doing to get podded multiple times a day. I could afford my clones purely off ratting my clone costs 43m + 2x +4 implants and a 3% PG + ZCHL hardwirings. You didn't give any game design reasons why the costs should remain though. "I can afford it" is just you saying you don't care about the cost. Why do you think PvP in general needs to be taxed beyond the normal equipment loss and why do the costs need to keep climbing for older characters to such an extent? Try to come up with reason other than tradition. What if the feature wasn't already in the game and was introduced as a new feature? How would you implement it and why those details? To me it seems it wasn't given much thought when initially implemented. There were no high skill characters at the time, so they probably thought they had years to change the system, if problems popped up. They were right on that. Problem being CCP didn't properly follow up and iterate on things in general until recently and issues are ignored until sufficient number of people start to suffer from them. We started to arrive at the critical mass of complaint a year or two ago, but CCP had bigger fish to fry at that point. Now that they're properly rethinking existing mechanics and their purpose, I can't imagine the current medical clone system surviving that process without significant changes. With the changes made to medclone travel it just seems increasingly like a unnecessary deterrent to PvP in a PvP focused game.



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