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Do instas HAVE to be server side?

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Marchocias	Posted - 2006.08.23 11:48:00 - [1] Can't they all be client side? Sure it would make trading them a lot more of a pain in the arse, and would have to go through the server, but why not have them natively client side, so they aren't clogging up eve's database?
Ilmonstre Minmatar 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.08.23 11:49:00 - [2] it is too easy to adit them then and you can create ss's at will becouse all you gotta do is fill in the co-ordinates and your set
Marchocias	Posted - 2006.08.23 11:55:00 - [3] Edited by: Marchocias on 23/08/2006 11:56:35 Edited by: Marchocias on 23/08/2006 11:56:09 I guess, but not if they cannot be editted. Sure you'll always be able to nip out of the game, and modify the relevant file directly, but if its kept encrypted properly that shouldn't be too much of a problem - I can't imagine many people would want to bother 'cr4cking' bookmarks! (Edit: apparently cr4ck is a rude word... I just thought it was a gap in a relatively flat surface, or a form of smokable drug... whoever came up with the profanity filter on this forum shoulod have their ** shoved up their own **)
merc999 Caldari Turbulent Subversion	Posted - 2006.08.23 11:56:00 - [4] Edited by: merc999 on 23/08/2006 11:56:55 Client side isnt an option, many of us play on more than one PC, and too pay a small fortune for set of bookmarks I can only use some of the time, or spend ages copying to an alt, changing PC's and copying back would be even more infuriating than the current system MERC999 Public Relations Director TBSV Keeping Empire and Syndicate ship builders in business
jamesw Omniscient Order	Posted - 2006.08.23 11:57:00 - [5] Originally by: Marchocias Can't they all be client side? Sure it would make trading them a lot more of a pain in the arse, and would have to go through the server, but why not have them natively client side, so they aren't clogging up eve's database? They did that before. It didn't work out. -- NEW Vid: Domi For the Win!
End Yourself Core Domination	Posted - 2006.08.23 11:58:00 - [6] love the idea. not because it might fix laaaag BUT especially cause it would enable peeps to manually scan and manually create bookmarks to get close to prey. the way scan probes work atm just requires ZERO skill. and with astro 5 you can make random SSs anyway. then make everything on scanner which is further away than 0.1 au from your ship but closer than 0.5 au warpable. i'd have wasted alot of time training covops and astrometrics to 5 but who cares! the scan probe system sucks. just scan for probes within few au and log off when you spot anything like 99% of eve does and probes are useless. --- Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity.
Eleni Shakira Citizens of E.A.R.T.H. E.A.R.T.H. Federation	Posted - 2006.08.23 11:58:00 - [7] Originally by: Marchocias I guess, but not if they cannot be editted. Sure you'll always be able to nip out of the game, and modify the relevant file directly, but if its kept encrypted properly that shouldn't be too much of a problem - I can't imagine many people would want to bother '*****ing' bookmarks! Maybe not many, but enough of the right people would. And that matters. Using them as instas is already an exploit (or 'unintended feature' if you actually believe they are good for the game)...no reason to inflame the issue further. I have good news, I just saved a bunch of money on my car insurance by switching from Geico to Progressive. EARTH
Marchocias	Posted - 2006.08.23 11:58:00 - [8] It would hardly take a genius to export client side bookmarks to a disc, put that in another PC and import them onto another installation of a client.
jamesw Omniscient Order	Posted - 2006.08.23 12:00:00 - [9] hey! You could zip up your bookmark folders and sell them on eBay!!! HOW GREAT WOULD THAT BE FOR EVE!!!111oenone omg omg -- NEW Vid: Domi For the Win!
sidthesexist Caldari Euphoria Released Euphoria Unleashed	Posted - 2006.08.23 12:01:00 - [10] Originally by: jamesw hey! You could zip up your bookmark folders and sell them on eBay!!! HOW GREAT WOULD THAT BE FOR EVE!!!111oenone omg omg I ♥ u james. ________ Euphoria Released

Jenny Spitfire Caldari LoneStar Industries Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2006.08.23 12:01:00 - [11] Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 23/08/2006 12:01:17 Yes. Space/Map hacking? --------- In the blindness, a streak fiery thread violently cuts the horizon. Bleeding golden mists, engulfing the blindness from within. Burning the darkness. The touch of dawn.
FireFoxx80 Caldari E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2006.08.23 12:04:00 - [12] Why has the server going down thread spawned all these insta threads to come back? What I do the rest of the time.
Marchocias	Posted - 2006.08.23 12:05:00 - [13] Its not that difficult to sell bookmarks on ebay at the moment anyway - in the same way as you sell ISK or any other item.
jamesw Omniscient Order	Posted - 2006.08.23 12:06:00 - [14] Originally by: Marchocias Its not that difficult to sell bookmarks on ebay at the moment anyway - in the same way as you sell ISK or any other item. and you know this how -- NEW Vid: Domi For the Win!
Hertford Ars Caelestis Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.08.23 12:06:00 - [15] I agree with keeping BM's serverside, but it always bemused me that I couldn't tell my navigation systems to warp to coordinate x/y/z. This is, of course, the same navigation system that can land me within 15km of a station from, well, 15,000,000,000km.
End Yourself Core Domination	Posted - 2006.08.23 12:07:00 - [16] Originally by: Marchocias (Edit: apparently cr4ck is a rude word... I just thought it was a gap in a relatively flat surface, or a form of smokable drug... whoever came up with the profanity filter on this forum shoulod have their ** shoved up their own ) the amount of political correctness applied by ccp is ridiculous what is sooooo bad about a farm animal like a*** that an alliance ticker gets changed over it?!? --- Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity.
Sfynx The Arrow Project The ARR0W Project	Posted - 2006.08.23 12:08:00 - [17] If a big table of plain bookmark data is clogging up the database, there is something wrong with the database or its design. What would the world go to if a database server could not store data?
Za Po Caldari	Posted - 2006.08.23 12:08:00 - [18] Originally by: End Yourself love the idea. not because it might fix laaaag BUT especially cause it would enable peeps to manually scan and manually create bookmarks to get close to prey. It would also allow people to create SSs that are 20 AUs off plane. Good luck finding them. -------------------- Do you have a solution to the BM and instas problem? Test it against the bookmark requirements.
Marchocias	Posted - 2006.08.23 12:08:00 - [19] Originally by: FireFoxx80 Why has the server going down thread spawned all these insta threads to come back? Instas were at the top of the list anyway, so I'm sorry! Just trying to be on topic.... but I figured that I'd look at it from the technological angle - surely theres no real difference between client side and server side bookmarks in function, but a MASSIVE one in server stability. Oh, and to minimize (not stop, since it could be cr4cked) ebay trading of bookmarks, just make sure that your bookmarks file is encrypted and locked to only work with the character it applies to.
merc999 Caldari Turbulent Subversion	Posted - 2006.08.23 12:09:00 - [20] Originally by: Marchocias It would hardly take a genius to export client side bookmarks to a disc, put that in another PC and import them onto another installation of a client. I have used PC's in many parts of UK and Europe, and often in the USA, downloading a client on someone elses/Hotel/Clients/complete strangers machine's is bad enough , but to then start adding files from a disc I think would be too much MERC999 Public Relations Director TBSV Keeping Empire and Syndicate ship builders in business

Thorliaron	Posted - 2006.08.23 12:09:00 - [21] hey look im in another insta thread!
Eleni Shakira Citizens of E.A.R.T.H. E.A.R.T.H. Federation	Posted - 2006.08.23 12:11:00 - [22] Fixing instas can only involve totally and completely removing them as they exist in their current functionality. Making them clientside is about as good of an idea as buffing ECM would be. I have good news, I just saved a bunch of money on my car insurance by switching from Geico to Progressive. EARTH
Jason Marshall Hammer Of Light Astral Wolves	Posted - 2006.08.23 12:11:00 - [23] im starting to wonder if there is more storage and what not being used up on threads about instas....over the actual instas.... Tacky lens flares in sigs 4tw!
End Yourself Core Domination	Posted - 2006.08.23 12:15:00 - [24] Originally by: Za Po Originally by: End Yourself love the idea. not because it might fix laaaag BUT especially cause it would enable peeps to manually scan and manually create bookmarks to get close to prey. It would also allow people to create SSs that are 20 AUs off plane. Good luck finding them. and?!? not like i ALLREADY can create those spots with observator probes. and not like i can use the same observators to find those spots. it just requires ZERO skill but ****LOADS of patience. and not worth it if you allready know that once you get within 1au with probes they will just log out anyway. or warp to another spot. i have retrieved abandoned ships from spots like those more than one time. and btw pls take the time to read my whole post BEFORE answering next time. it was all in there allready. thx --- Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity.
Za Po Caldari	Posted - 2006.08.23 12:27:00 - [25] Originally by: End Yourself Originally by: Za Po Originally by: End Yourself love the idea. not because it might fix laaaag BUT especially cause it would enable peeps to manually scan and manually create bookmarks to get close to prey. It would also allow people to create SSs that are 20 AUs off plane. Good luck finding them. and?!? not like i ALLREADY can create those spots with observator probes. and not like i can use the same observators to find those spots. it just requires ZERO skill but ****LOADS of patience. and not worth it if you allready know that once you get within 1au with probes they will just log out anyway. or warp to another spot. i have retrieved abandoned ships from spots like those more than one time. Forgive me if I'm missing something about how probes work, but don't those things have a maximum range? If I place a bookmark in such a way that it is beyond the best probe's maximum range from any other object in the system, how can you find it? -------------------- Do you have a solution to the BM and instas problem? Test it against the bookmark requirements.
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.08.23 12:33:00 - [26] Originally by: Sfynx If a big table of plain bookmark data is clogging up the database, there is something wrong with the database or its design. What would the world go to if a database server could not store data? Every bookmark is unique, even if it is just a copy of an existing bookmark (otherwise you wouldn't be able to rename them indepndently, for example). That means every bookmark that exists must have its own entry in the database index. That means an index table with literally over 100,000,000 entries, no matter what format the data takes. Arguing that this would not lag database access is just plain silly. The amount of bookmarks is easily 10 times greater than it was when Oveur originally blogged about the load problems that bookmarks create, and every day that figure increases. The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
End Yourself Core Domination	Posted - 2006.08.23 12:33:00 - [27] Originally by: Za Po Originally by: End Yourself Originally by: Za Po Originally by: End Yourself love the idea. not because it might fix laaaag BUT especially cause it would enable peeps to manually scan and manually create bookmarks to get close to prey. It would also allow people to create SSs that are 20 AUs off plane. Good luck finding them. and?!? not like i ALLREADY can create those spots with observator probes. and not like i can use the same observators to find those spots. it just requires ZERO skill but ****LOADS of patience. and not worth it if you allready know that once you get within 1au with probes they will just log out anyway. or warp to another spot. i have retrieved abandoned ships from spots like those more than one time. Forgive me if I'm missing something about how probes work, but don't those things have a maximum range? If I place a bookmark in such a way that it is beyond the best probe's maximum range from any other object in the system, how can you find it? there is one probe which has unlimited range. the observator probe. it also happens to scan in full 3d which all other probes do NOT. this probe is ofc even less accurate than a 192au one BUT this fact makes it great to create offgrid safes. just scan for a random left behind shuttle/noobship few times and the inaccuracy will make the result a nice SS. also this probe ofc requires some high rank useless skill at lvl5 to work. --- Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity.
Lurtz Caldari Gunrunners and Gamblers	Posted - 2006.08.24 03:45:00 - [28] Originally by: Marchocias Edited by: Marchocias on 23/08/2006 11:56:35 Edited by: Marchocias on 23/08/2006 11:56:09 I guess, but not if they cannot be editted. Sure you'll always be able to nip out of the game, and modify the relevant file directly, but if its kept encrypted properly that shouldn't be too much of a problem - I can't imagine many people would want to bother 'cr4cking' bookmarks! (Edit: apparently cr4ck is a rude word... I just thought it was a gap in a relatively flat surface, or a form of smokable drug... whoever came up with the profanity filter on this forum shoulod have their ** shoved up their own ) but in order to encrypt well, they'd have to be sending keys back and forth to client and it'd lose whateve bandwidth we hoped to save. as for the filter, if your gonna gripe about the thing let it censor you rather than do it yourself.... I hate that it killed a thread on naming the new caldari BS the* (meaning rooster! ) it's a bird really and it makes sense, sitting on high ground watching over the flock.... a noble bird and a fitting name for a Caldari BS. The forum has a problem with***s though....
Malthros Zenobia Caldari Independent Navy Reserve Kimotoro Directive	Posted - 2006.08.24 04:40:00 - [29] Originally by: Hertford I agree with keeping BM's serverside, but it always bemused me that I couldn't tell my navigation systems to warp to coordinate x/y/z. This is, of course, the same navigation system that can land me within 15km of a station from, well, 15,000,000,000km. Have you ever read the PF regarding the warp drive on EVE ships? If not, please do so.
Maya Rkell Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.08.24 04:46:00 - [30] Originally by: Marchocias Can't they all be client side? Sure it would make trading them a lot more of a pain in the arse, and would have to go through the server, but why not have them natively client side, so they aren't clogging up eve's database? Short answer? Yes. Unencrypted client side is exploitable. Encrypted client side uses more server CPU time. They gotta go entirely - 0km warps / new ways to interdict pilots.

Spoon1	Posted - 2006.08.24 05:13:00 - [31] m00?
Jimmy Hoffa Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2006.08.26 18:16:00 - [32] Originally by: Lurtz Originally by: Marchocias Edited by: Marchocias on 23/08/2006 11:56:35 Edited by: Marchocias on 23/08/2006 11:56:09 I guess, but not if they cannot be editted. Sure you'll always be able to nip out of the game, and modify the relevant file directly, but if its kept encrypted properly that shouldn't be too much of a problem - I can't imagine many people would want to bother 'cr4cking' bookmarks! (Edit: apparently cr4ck is a rude word... I just thought it was a gap in a relatively flat surface, or a form of smokable drug... whoever came up with the profanity filter on this forum shoulod have their ** shoved up their own ) but in order to encrypt well, they'd have to be sending keys back and forth to client and it'd lose whateve bandwidth we hoped to save. as for the filter, if your gonna gripe about the thing let it censor you rather than do it yourself.... I hate that it killed a thread on naming the new caldari BS the* (meaning rooster! ) it's a bird really and it makes sense, sitting on high ground watching over the flock.... a noble bird and a fitting name for a Caldari BS. The forum has a problem with*s though.... So wait a second, one of the devs wanted to call the new ship boobie and that's allright, but calling it a*** isn't? What's up with that?
Kweel Nakashyn Minmatar Aeden	Posted - 2006.08.26 18:36:00 - [33] Originally by: Marchocias Edited by: Marchocias on 23/08/2006 11:56:35 Edited by: Marchocias on 23/08/2006 11:56:09 I guess, but not if they cannot be editted. Sure you'll always be able to nip out of the game, and modify the relevant file directly, but if its kept encrypted properly that shouldn't be too much of a problem - I can't imagine many people would want to bother 'cr4cking' bookmarks! I actually just talk about that to a friend of mine. When I was around the same conclusion as yours, I was remembering the little freezing joy when opening bm. This one should be there too, especially if file a encrypted. Decyphering cpu time isn't free :/
Kweel Nakashyn Minmatar Aeden	Posted - 2006.08.26 19:12:00 - [34] Originally by: Maya Rkell Unencrypted client side is exploitable. Encrypted client side uses more server CPU time. They gotta go entirely - 0km warps / new ways to interdict pilots. There's some idea about fixing the bm pb, but the hardest thing is ccp can't decide what to do about these : pirates players can't bear them, pvpers switch from love to hate and traders can't live without it. Well... As long as scams are ok for pirates, I think traders should be able to "scam" pirates using instas... Anyway, here's things about what I though : - in a purpose of removing instas, it could be way simple : prevent creation and use of bookmarks less than 30km of a spacial object. By geometry, noone could jump less than 15km from an object. - in a purpose of taking instas client-side, put all bm in a separate folder, cyphered. When the player logs in, the game decyphers it using keys / algorythm transmited by the server (client do all the work). In the game creating and using insta is smooth because no decyphering / data transmission to the db is used. Insta folder isn't reachable (dunno how to do, maybe using ram or something) by OS on which eve client runs. Log off gets a new key / algorythm to cypher insta folder again. --> log in / log off will be long. A problem when server crash isn't solved (muahaha, you should use mainframes ccp guys... ;) ) - in a purpose of keeping bm server side, I hop CCP considered merging bm as a solution. Each "less than one km away from another bm" merges and get the mean coordinates, aswell as a new name which can't be changed to make them a unique entry on a brend new "unique bm" table in ccp's db. - in a purpose of keeping again bm servers... A variant of "use uniques bm" again : keep the name of bm on a seperate table but create an index to unique bm which sets coordinates in stone like "the insta who go from that gate to this one". The key should be something very tiny so when copying bm that would reduce the transmission lag I think... Agian, complete system are set on another table who gots stranger keys to the big bm, and complete region are collection of stranger that go to the system table (that go to the bm table). Copying insta for that region ? Hold on, 10 seconds, it's done. ;) Why using a tons of instas on a big table if I just go say 2 km away from another bm set six month ago by another guy ? What is really really big on the bm table ? Instas. Safe spot aren't that much. I ccp guys should try a simple count request on their db that calculate how far from gates, stations and POS their bm are from, compare with the total number of the item in the bm table... Then decide to keep naming for instas (not other bm, only instas) or not... Just my two cents... ;)
Andreask14 Sensus Numinis Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2006.08.26 19:15:00 - [35] While they are at it, they could also make the hit detection completely client-side. Does make as-much sense.
Jaden Haryl	Posted - 2006.08.26 19:25:00 - [36] Edited by: Jaden Haryl on 26/08/2006 19:30:25 Originally by: Avon Originally by: Sfynx If a big table of plain bookmark data is clogging up the database, there is something wrong with the database or its design. What would the world go to if a database server could not store data? Every bookmark is unique, even if it is just a copy of an existing bookmark (otherwise you wouldn't be able to rename them indepndently, for example). That means every bookmark that exists must have its own entry in the database index. That means an index table with literally over 100,000,000 entries, no matter what format the data takes. Arguing that this would not lag database access is just plain silly. The amount of bookmarks is easily 10 times greater than it was when Oveur originally blogged about the load problems that bookmarks create, and every day that figure increases. Sorry but I disagree, I do DB development for a living and a modern RDBMS can retrieve a few hundred rows from 100,000,000 rows with ease if it is indexed properly and accessed with the proper locking mechanisms for concurrency (I'm talking sub second response). That is assuming they are storing bookmarks in the obvious manner as in a table that has the character PK that owns the BM along with the description and XYZ and the CharPK/X/Y/Z is the clustered PK for the table. Something however tells me they are most like storing bookmarks in some sort of OO fashion in a table with all other player assets(just a guess), therfore making it much harder to optimize. Note there is no reason I can think of why CCP couldn't federate the BM's into a seperate SQL server from the core DB for not alot of money, this BM server's sole purpose would be to store and serve the BM's for the 20-30k concurrent users. Yes I know the issues with using a separate server instead of one monolithic DB for the game state, sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do to support the user load. Now ontop of that I could imagine only reading a characters BM's from the DB 1 time per session, upon login, beyond that the BM's are cached in memory on the proxy node the user is connected to for the duration of thier session, this is still server side and protected but does not burden the central DB when someone invokes a BM, there by distributing the load to the proxies where it is easiest to scale out. Note you would need to write to the DB everytime a new BM is created, but what is the read vs write ratio for BM's I bet it pretty lopsided for reads. Maybe CCP is doing some of this, but if BM's are truly a performance issue on the server something tells me they are not given my knowledge. This of course just covers BM's performance issues, it doesn't cover the fact that insta's are just silly and CCP ned to make a decision to either allow 0km warp in or prohibit warp in <15km around a gate.
Lord Sid Minmatar Lordless	Posted - 2006.08.26 19:50:00 - [37] The answer is YES they can be client side and be completely secure and unexploitable. Heres how: Cache all bookmarks client side, when using a bookmark ingame, reference the bookmarks ID number to the server. the server then retrieves it's copy of the bookmark then either validates the warp or denies it. there's no point in downloading all the bookmarks every time you login. I think i've edited a bookmark once in my 2 year eve career. People wouldn't be able to exploit this and it would be a whole hell of a lot faster on both ends. I really don't know why CCP hasn't thought of this.
Tachy	Posted - 2006.08.26 20:09:00 - [38] If you remember that you can only warp to targets the server knows about, you might find out that it is kinda improbable the client storing BM would work. Stations, gates, roids and bookmarks are all serversided locations. the server uses that info for calculating the needed cap acceleration, direction and whatnot. I don't think I'd love BM on the client when a little lagspike (highly unlikely with EVE and the internet) can decide about your warpout when a couple of well timed group- and chatinvites can get you killed. BM that are stored on the client are just asking for being hacked. --==*-- Even with nougat, you can have a perfect moment.
Lord Sid Minmatar Lordless	Posted - 2006.08.26 20:13:00 - [39] Then you don't understand. The bookmark that is client side is merely a copy. When you login for the first time on a computer it caches all your current bookmarks for that character. Any new bookmarks would be downloaded adhoc. This way you lag once when you log into eve instead of every time you jump, undock, login, pick your nose. The server owns the real bookmark. You have the client reference the ID of the bookmark when it requests the warp from the server. The server then decides if it gets to warp. The server decides if you can create a bookmark or not. This is positively unexploitable. -=Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds=-
Jaden Haryl	Posted - 2006.08.26 21:22:00 - [40] Edited by: Jaden Haryl on 26/08/2006 21:23:23 Edited by: Jaden Haryl on 26/08/2006 21:22:49 Originally by: Lord Sid Then you don't understand. The bookmark that is client side is merely a copy. When you login for the first time on a computer it caches all your current bookmarks for that character. Any new bookmarks would be downloaded adhoc. This way you lag once when you log into eve instead of every time you jump, undock, login, pick your nose. The server owns the real bookmark. You have the client reference the ID of the bookmark when it requests the warp from the server. The server then decides if it gets to warp. The server decides if you can create a bookmark or not. This is positively unexploitable. Yes but you are only eliminating part of the DB load for BM's, that is retrieving the list of your know BM's, when you invoke the BM however in your design the server must then read the XYZ of the BM based on your BM ID incurring load on the DB, this probably occurring multiple times per second with 20k + concurrent users. Not that a good DB design shouldn't be able to handle it, the way I suggested in caching the whole BM including XYZ on the proxy your client connects to eliminates both the list and invoke load from the DB leaving only the BM create load while still being completely secure. Not that it would'nt be adviseable to cache the BM list with ID in the client to eliminate that load from the proxy as well. Either way I believe with today's hardware and proper design BM's server side should not impact game performance in any meaningful way even with a speculated 100 million BM's and the known 20-30k user load. But without knowing the true server side design I could very well be wrong.

Kweel Nakashyn Minmatar Aeden	Posted - 2006.08.27 02:09:00 - [41] Jaden, actually, it's not the selects statements that are a problem. It's more the updates and inserts statements that are slow : ie moving bm from one container to another (each bm need an update), uploading bm to your character (same but for inserts - boring....), copying bm from your character to somewhere (inserts - boooooooooooooooooooooooring... 2 to 4 times more long just because of upload bandwidth). You'll notice the things I told tend to try to reduce this bandwidth by sumurising hundreds of bm to one (I'm not ccp and still a very young programmer in dbses). So instead of having 500 inserts folowed by 500 insert when copying a region set of instas, we'll be having a total of 2 inserts - which can be made under 1 sec irl. The real problem is more like : does devs really decided what to do ? Forbid or not instas ? The thing is more here I think. Maybe the insta thingy takes soooooo long that dev likes it that way after all. Or nobody ever notice why should they change if the server can work like this... Beware devs : where I work we still have some piece of junk from the 70's in our db / acceding db programs. Fixing it is 60-70% of my working time and we all have the "Pray that won't be you and never touch it" reflex for these to fix. Gotoland is our 0.0 ... Anyway, if EVE continue on its way, something will be done "soon(tm)" (or "yesterday(c)" :p ).
Jaden Haryl	Posted - 2006.08.27 02:21:00 - [42] Edited by: Jaden Haryl on 27/08/2006 02:22:48 Originally by: Kweel Nakashyn Jaden, actually, it's not the selects statements that are a problem. It's more the updates and inserts statements that are slow : ie moving bm from one container to another (each bm need an update), uploading bm to your character (same but for inserts - boring....), copying bm from your character to somewhere (inserts - boooooooooooooooooooooooring... 2 to 4 times more long just because of upload bandwidth). You'll notice the things I told tend to try to reduce this bandwidth by sumurising hundreds of bm to one (I'm not ccp and still a very young programmer in dbses). So instead of having 500 inserts folowed by 500 insert when copying a region set of instas, we'll be having a total of 2 inserts - which can be made under 1 sec irl. The real problem is more like : does devs really decided what to do ? Forbid or not instas ? The thing is more here I think. Maybe the insta thingy takes soooooo long that dev likes it that way after all. Or nobody ever notice why should they change if the server can work like this... Beware devs : where I work we still have some piece of junk from the 70's in our db / acceding db programs. Fixing it is 60-70% of my working time and we all have the "Pray that won't be you and never touch it" reflex for these to fix. Gotoland is our 0.0 ... Anyway, if EVE continue on its way, something will be done "soon(tm)" (or "yesterday(c)" :p ). Although true the act of making and selling BM's should create inserts/updates I suppose I assumed if there was a performance problem it would be with the list and invoke on the BM's since everyone has been focusing on client side BM's which would not change the amount of DB load based on trading them in game, I guess they could be trade out of game as files then to eliminate that, although if properly encrypted this would not work. If it truly is the creation/movement of bookmarks that is generating the perf probs then elminating insta's is the obvious solution, as I said in another thread, why not let us warp to any xyz coord manually? Because we can't be scanned in our safes then? Fix scanning then duh. If they want us to travel 15km to gates then prevent warp in closer no matter what BM you have, if they don't care then put 0km warp in on menu duh... The solutions seem simple, but I digress.
Malthros Zenobia Caldari Independent Navy Reserve Kimotoro Directive	Posted - 2006.08.27 02:48:00 - [43] Edited by: Malthros Zenobia on 27/08/2006 02:50:24
Malthros Zenobia Caldari Independent Navy Reserve Kimotoro Directive	Posted - 2006.08.27 02:49:00 - [44] Originally by: Jimmy Hoffa Originally by: Lurtz Originally by: Marchocias Edited by: Marchocias on 23/08/2006 11:56:35 Edited by: Marchocias on 23/08/2006 11:56:09 I guess, but not if they cannot be editted. Sure you'll always be able to nip out of the game, and modify the relevant file directly, but if its kept encrypted properly that shouldn't be too much of a problem - I can't imagine many people would want to bother 'cr4cking' bookmarks! (Edit: apparently cr4ck is a rude word... I just thought it was a gap in a relatively flat surface, or a form of smokable drug... whoever came up with the profanity filter on this forum shoulod have their ** shoved up their own ) but in order to encrypt well, they'd have to be sending keys back and forth to client and it'd lose whateve bandwidth we hoped to save. as for the filter, if your gonna gripe about the thing let it censor you rather than do it yourself.... I hate that it killed a thread on naming the new caldari BS the* (meaning rooster! ) it's a bird really and it makes sense, sitting on high ground watching over the flock.... a noble bird and a fitting name for a Caldari BS. The forum has a problem with*s though.... So wait a second, one of the devs wanted to call the new ship boobie and that's allright, but calling it a*** isn't? What's up with that? What's up with it is that Hammer wasn't serious. He just likes boobies. So do I, unless they are male boobies.
Tachy	Posted - 2006.08.27 06:46:00 - [45] Originally by: Lord Sid Then you don't understand. The bookmark that is client side is merely a copy. When you login for the first time on a computer it caches all your current bookmarks for that character. Any new bookmarks would be downloaded adhoc. This way you lag once when you log into eve instead of every time you jump, undock, login, pick your nose. The server owns the real bookmark. You have the client reference the ID of the bookmark when it requests the warp from the server. The server then decides if it gets to warp. The server decides if you can create a bookmark or not. This is positively unexploitable. The software updates the whole relations between you, your bookmarks and all others objects in range anyway so it can highlight the next gate, show you the number of jumps, offer you the position in the rightclick-menu and whatnot. I don't think this part's done on the server. I think it is already and only done on the client side. If it was done on the server, there'd be a much shorter time until the next system was booted when it wasn't visited by other pilots before because the server'd know about a pilot going to jump into that system, and maybe even the one beyond it. The BM organisation is done on the server. Handing that part over to the client would be dangerous. And that's what I understood some pilots want to be handled by the client too. And for multiple calculations, the server needs the BM anyway, fresh and clean - or would you like your client to send the server your BM-position when you have to warp out NOW! because you encounter massive lag while opponents are entering 'your' system and are warping towards you? I'd be quite happy if there was no chance to lose the BM on the way to it and all that needs to reach the server is my command to WARPWARPWARPNOWOMGphewwcloak. --==*-- Even with nougat, you can have a perfect moment.
Kweel Nakashyn Minmatar Aeden	Posted - 2006.08.27 10:31:00 - [46] Originally by: Jaden Haryl If it truly is the creation/movement of bookmarks that is generating the perf probs then elminating insta's is the obvious solution, as I said in another thread, why not let us warp to any xyz coord manually? Because we can't be scanned in our safes then? Fix scanning then duh. If they want us to travel 15km to gates then prevent warp in closer no matter what BM you have, if they don't care then put 0km warp in on menu duh... Manual xyz should allow player to jump without being at target before (EVE gate should be discovered again since eons, warping tacklers next to ennemy without cover op help, etc...). This is not the same thing there... Anyway, you touch the root of (dev)il :p : devs can't choose what to do with insta. Technically they can remove OR keep them, both solutions are easy to perform and lead to no more bm lag and insta copying lag. It's more something a big techie boss and a game devellopper did not choose yet again... Or they choosed but they have no time to make it. Anyway, to me, devs have no excuses and can't be complaining about that. Solutions are here, enter your choose ^^
TOGAKURE Daisuke	Posted - 2006.08.27 15:13:00 - [47] Naah, encryption would be unnecessary. Just a hash from your client-side set of bm's, compare it to server side. Whenever you add/remove/change your bm's, it gets hashed again. Then, checking for example every few minutes: Hash doesn't match = no bm's (maybe even push an archived copy of your bm's to your pc when this happens) Hash matches = good to go so with 140k subscribes you would have 140k hashes, not billions and you could keep them client-side. I'm pretty sure CCP has thought this too, so there must be something that prevents this.
Jaden Haryl	Posted - 2006.08.27 16:55:00 - [48] Originally by: Kweel Nakashyn Manual xyz should allow player to jump without being at target before (EVE gate should be discovered again since eons, warping tacklers next to ennemy without cover op help, etc...). This is not the same thing there... Anyway, you touch the root of (dev)il :p : devs can't choose what to do with insta. Technically they can remove OR keep them, both solutions are easy to perform and lead to no more bm lag and insta copying lag. It's more something a big techie boss and a game devellopper did not choose yet again... Or they choosed but they have no time to make it. Anyway, to me, devs have no excuses and can't be complaining about that. Solutions are here, enter your choose ^^ I still don't see a problem with manual xyz warp to, someone still needs to provide you with XYZ (covops). Sure you could try and gues xyz, but good luck hitting anything like that. I don't mean warping between systems either, sure you could try but it would take months at warp velocity to travel between systems anyway. Really why all the fuss about securing BM's? Like our ship would prevent us from entering XYZ to warp to. They just need to remove that silly construct, fix the scanning so you can still find people who SS, maybe even make it risky to manually XYZ warp, like you might come out of warp in a planet and be insta podded etc. Now do that and you can stop obsessing on how to encrypt client BM's properly so you don't strain the DB, instead you can store them in what ever way makes the most sense. PS: Anyone else sick of these forums throwing away your reply's randomly? Better type your reply in notepad less you hit submit and it just goes away half the time. Ugh forums are not that difficult to get right...


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