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Roxanna Kell Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.08.24 23:22:00 - [1] it will be fun to hear your Ideas on how to make combat last longer and keeping the balance. my idea: Half Base Rate of fire of all weapons + 1/2 the boost ammount of repairers and shield boosters.
Malthros Zenobia Caldari Independent Navy Reserve Kimotoro Directive	Posted - 2006.08.24 23:24:00 - [2] Give my feorx a 500% boost to shields and add XL shield extenders.
Jenny Spitfire Caldari LoneStar Industries Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2006.08.24 23:28:00 - [3] TBH combat is balanced without T2 ammos. Not very short IMHO. --------- In the blindness, a streak fiery thread violently cuts the horizon. Bleeding golden mists, engulfing the blindness from within. Burning the darkness. The touch of dawn.
Roxanna Kell Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.08.24 23:30:00 - [4] CCP think its too short, if you look at the drawing board there are features that they wanna bring into the game, but wont work well because combat is short.
Jenny Spitfire Caldari LoneStar Industries Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2006.08.24 23:32:00 - [5] If you think about it, CCP balances and buffs tanking. Players cry because cant kill fast. CCP buffs DPS. Players cry combat is too fast. CCP balances and buffs tanking. You get the picture. --------- In the blindness, a streak fiery thread violently cuts the horizon. Bleeding golden mists, engulfing the blindness from within. Burning the darkness. The touch of dawn.
Adoro Reunited	Posted - 2006.08.24 23:32:00 - [6] Like the tournament? Those where long battles... :) t2 is overpowered :P dont nerf t2 though -------- Zapatero: Quote: So what happens when they 'cure' the geek gene as well? Poof <scuse the pun> There goes EVE.
Roxanna Kell Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.08.24 23:32:00 - [7] what if? they change the game so you can only be locked by 5 ship, woot woot. hmm, well that will be kinda crazy. jsut thinking about it, peopel would propebly exploit it and lock they re friends to mminimise damage.
mechtech	Posted - 2006.08.24 23:34:00 - [8] wait.....would that even do anything?! ok, ive thought about it now and I understand. It is effectivly exactly the same as doubling the HP as all ships, except this has the added bonus that screws up the game, as it makes plates and extenders 2x more effective, messing up balance unless that was changed also....its all a big can of worms, and would be a nightmare for the balancing guys, and will be as long as you try to fix the problem by changing stats. I personally think combat is timed just right.
Roxanna Kell Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.08.24 23:37:00 - [9] but if you reduce the rate of fire a little. add more tank like triple. and make booster and repairers almsot uselss. because seriously , dont you think its retarded that there is a module taht repairs armor, wish is made from some kind of metal. shield is more believable, but armor guys, come on, oh well we are flying gadamn spaceships and can jump thru gates. who can argue. iam not complaining of course dont get me wrong, but i like the features in the drawing bord, and to have em , combat ahs to be prolonged a bit more, how you do that without upsetting the balance so gadamn much? you tell me
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.08.24 23:37:00 - [10] There is no simple solution. Basically it all come down to focused fire, and that is just such a hard thing to address. Enough guns will pop a target very quickly. Combat actually lasts quite a long time in a balanced fight (as we saw in the championships), but that is not the reality of combat in Eve. People want to kill their enemies as quickly as possible, not get in to some noble knightly joust. The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
Malthros Zenobia Caldari Independent Navy Reserve Kimotoro Directive	Posted - 2006.08.24 23:42:00 - [11] Cap ships should have a '0' added to the end of their armor/shields/structure, on a more serious note. Sure an Avatar can break 90k armor with just skills taken into effect, and with the +% armor plates and proper pirate implants, can probably hit 200-250k, but that's still nothing a fleet can't pop in minutes, if not less. Capital ships need to be huge, a **** to move, massive investments, and a royal pain in the ass to kill. But as was already said, the problem is focused fire. *I forget the exact bonus % from a complete HG slave set, but you can get armor plates which boost armor by 6% or so, and when you're already at 150k or so, that's better than any other plate in the game.
Benglada Finite Horizon	Posted - 2006.08.25 00:25:00 - [12] 1v1 fights vs similar ships usually run into 3-5 minutes, ganks are short and they should be. --------------------------- Originally by: Arkanor 0.0 is the Final Frontier. Bring money and friends.
Auraurious Celtic Anarchy Black Reign Syndicate	Posted - 2006.08.25 00:31:00 - [13] Originally by: Roxanna Kell but if you reduce the rate of fire a little. add more tank like triple. and make booster and repairers almsot uselss. because seriously , dont you think its retarded that there is a module taht repairs armor, wish is made from some kind of metal. shield is more believable, but armor guys, come on, oh well we are flying gadamn spaceships and can jump thru gates. who can argue. iam not complaining of course dont get me wrong, but i like the features in the drawing bord, and to have em , combat ahs to be prolonged a bit more, how you do that without upsetting the balance so gadamn much? you tell me The problem with this is that there would suddenly be a lot easier to avoid unwanted pvp in many cases. Incepters and vagabonds would become insanely powerful, as they would be almost impossible to kill (subsequently, rapiers/hugins would become a requirement in many skirmishes, and a gang without one would be sheep to the slaughter). Now here is another what if. What if ccp instead boosted active tanking (I am assuming you were originally hoping that ccp would boost how long it takes to kill something, not how well they actively tank)? Well IMO this would be even worse. It would essentially spell the death of t1 frigates as anything but tacklers, and destroy the effectiveness of small scepter gangs almost completely, making eve a battleship/jammer only game. Of course ccp could try and make a small change to either of these, but I really can't see how it would help the situation (besides adding another damage mod to a few setups). _____________________________________________
Lazuran	Posted - 2006.08.25 00:54:00 - [14] Originally by: Roxanna Kell it will be fun to hear your Ideas on how to make combat last longer and keeping the balance. Potions of Healing. Lay on Hands ... Oh wait.
Engelious Angelion Minmatar Liberty Rogues Tactical Narcotics Team	Posted - 2006.08.25 00:55:00 - [15] i like combat JUST AS IT IS
w0rmy Intensive CareBearz	Posted - 2006.08.25 01:03:00 - [16] 25% decrease to a weapons final damage output. But i like things as they are anyway Originally by: Avon Originally by: Dark Shikari What single item is larger than a jetcan? My ego?
Liegus	Posted - 2006.08.25 01:18:00 - [17] I'm reading this thread while I wait for my weapons to sloooooowly wear down a battleship's shields... it's been at least 10 minutes so far... and all I can think is, 'huh?'
Danton Marcellus Nebula Rasa Holdings	Posted - 2006.08.25 01:19:00 - [18] Screw damage, armor & shields, have guns and missiles for that matter miss a whole lot more than they do currently, viola, longer battles. Looking For Ventrilo Hosting
Sorja E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2006.08.25 01:40:00 - [19] To have longer and more interesting fights, concentrated fire should have a limit on a same target. This was debated before the flat HP increase (which didn't change a thing) and was proven to be the more interesting solution to: 1¦ increase combat duration 2¦ prevent blobbing 3¦ add tactical depth to fights Flat HP increase is of course easier to do, but don't change much to fight duration in many cases and leads to blobbing. ____________________ Darko1107 > does anything in ascn space have tech II fittings? Quillan Rage > Iron ships
Malthros Zenobia Caldari Independent Navy Reserve Kimotoro Directive	Posted - 2006.08.25 01:48:00 - [20] Originally by: Lazuran Originally by: Roxanna Kell it will be fun to hear your Ideas on how to make combat last longer and keeping the balance. Potions of Healing. Lay on Hands ... Oh wait. Only if I can have a Harm spell which leaves you with 1d4 hull points after a succcessful bump from my inty.
Crausaum Ixion Defence Systems The Cyrene Initiative	Posted - 2006.08.25 01:57:00 - [21] The really insane part of Eve I find is all the skills that you can train to do more damage and fit more guns. On the weapons front you can train to reduce CPU and power needs as well as train a boatload of +5% damage skills along with skills for rapid firing. On the tanking side you have some skills to add defence HP, increase your capacitor, and get some slight resist bonuses. Nothing to balk at but not that great. Overall there is a bias to damage but not enough to be considered a crippling problem in small force actions. When you get into anything beyond 3 ships and someone starts acting as a fire control then things just get stupid. When on the ganked side it sucks as you end up sitting in a pod and down a few million in a few seconds. On the ganking side it sucks as it shortens the duration of your enemies suffering To be honest after three years of playing this game I'm kind of suprised ship HP is not higher. I actually find myself in agreement with those suggesting to just add another zero to the end of all HP scores. As long as you halved the effectivness of the booster/repair systems I think things would balance a bit. Sure there would be further tuning needed but it would not be the worst change Eve has seen. -Brotherhood, fraternity and equal rights to all men. ...and the ladies too.
vyperpit Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2006.08.25 02:10:00 - [22] Edited by: vyperpit on 25/08/2006 02:11:08 nerf tracking of all guns by some factor nerf sig of torps by some factor nerf dmg small ships can do to bigger ships nerf sensor boosters as detailed by Digitalcomunist result: more small 1v1 in combat, why would u attack a raven if its called pirmary and ur in a taranis, you would be better off hitting other cepters why would you go for that hac if you where in a pulse gedden if u know you will miss it farrr too often, hope this makes sense, ofcourse this would be a MASSIVE change so would need lots of balancing
Malicious Wraith The Dark Side of the Moon	Posted - 2006.08.25 02:32:00 - [23] Dont increase the length of combat. I think its very ballanced currently. ----------------------------------------
Engelious Angelion Minmatar Liberty Rogues Tactical Narcotics Team	Posted - 2006.08.25 03:05:00 - [24] i've been doing nothing but fighting... if they decide to NERF combat... AND I LIKE COMBAT JUST AS IT IS... then.. i think they risk making carrier killing almost impossible... curse fighting isnt just a matter of how long it takes to take down an enamy, its also, how fast is he to have back up to come. if battels increase in length, you'll actually make every capital ship in the game abel to call reinforcements from far far awaye, knowing they'll get there.. and capital ships compared to lower ranks of ships, will still be signigicant enoughf for the capital ships to WAY OUTTA HECK pewn the bs's or other unlucky craft sitting there... if combat should be nerf'd it should be size... aka... more damage to larger targets than your self, but less to smaller targets... i think smaller craft could easy use a 10% increase in damage on larger targets, and largertargets a 5-7% decrease. but as i said... I LIKE IT MOST TO STAY AS IT IS, SINCE NERFING HOW EVER RISK MAKING GREATER INBALANCE THAN IS WITH MISSILES ALLREADY!. only real overpowerd craft in game is the Raven, which still with very low skills, is both more vertisile and powerfull than any other bs in game. A raven pilote with low skills, can easy with a tech I fitting go even with most tech II fittet bs's out there.... Always hits with in its range..... Can tank, and gank as the only ship currently in all of EVE. CAn tank, gank and EW as the only ship in EVE.
Roxanna Kell Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.08.25 08:55:00 - [25] ^^ the raven lacks the long ragnge capability, have it jammed and you ll be jsut fine
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.08.25 09:04:00 - [26] I dont agree that combat is too short. The big hits and fast combat is why its FUN to start with. I seriously suggest they leave it alone. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Tate Iceni Caldari Iceni Combat and Logistical Support	Posted - 2006.08.25 09:08:00 - [27] Unless I'm duelling with other corp mates I WANT combat to be quick. My aim is to kill the enemy as quickly as I can; I certainly do not want combat to be a slogfest - can you imagine every engagement in Eve being like the final of the Tournament? The fun. Don't take that as a slight to either of the teams by the way - but I'm sure their main aim was to kill the other team as quick as they can. If you want combat to last longer in your battles - don't call logistics ships and the like primary.. (and watch your fleet get taken apart because the other side just wants to kill you!)
Eleni Shakira Citizens of E.A.R.T.H. E.A.R.T.H. Federation	Posted - 2006.08.25 09:14:00 - [28] Remove all RoF bonuses and replace them with tracking, optimal, falloff, flight time, ballistic velocity, or even dmg bonuses. There you go, ganks remain, while drawn out fights become more about tactics than straight damage. I just saved a bunch of money on my car insurance by not switching to Geico. snip Cute, but not eve related - Tirg Since when are recruitment threads not Eve related?
turnschuh	Posted - 2006.08.25 09:19:00 - [29] I also think combat is fine, I had cruiser 1on1s from 15sec up to 49sec, it all depends on the fitting.
El Berto Dirty Deeds Corp. Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.08.25 09:52:00 - [30] This constantly increasing HP actually has the opposite effect. It forces people to increase their gank and reduce their tank and to fly in bigger gangs to try and counter the percieved increased tanks. The result being that gang/fleet combat actually is shorter (apart from the time you actually meet an uber tank command ship). One on ones usually last quite a while now, leave tanking alone. Originally by: "Roxanna" ...dont you think its retarded that there is a module taht repairs armor, wish is made from some kind of metal. shield is more believable, but armor guys, come on... Intellegent materials and self repairing materials are already being researched and prototyped. So no I don't think its retarded
Sable Schroedinger Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.08.25 10:39:00 - [31] Originally by: vyperpit Edited by: vyperpit on 25/08/2006 02:11:08 nerf tracking of all guns by some factor nerf sig of torps by some factor nerf dmg small ships can do to bigger ships nerf sensor boosters as detailed by Digitalcomunist result: more small 1v1 in combat, why would u attack a raven if its called pirmary and ur in a taranis, you would be better off hitting other cepters why would you go for that hac if you where in a pulse gedden if u know you will miss it farrr too often, hope this makes sense, ofcourse this would be a MASSIVE change so would need lots of balancing this is a solution I like. Personally I don't want to see frigates effecting BS's to much of a real degree (ok, if you get a HUGE amount frigates together, thats fine, but a small gang of, say, 5 shouldn't) or BS's hitting frigates in anything other than a once in a blue moon lucky shot. And I'd like to see frigates missing each other more often (though BS's should hardly ever miss each other as they are like barn doors, so the current level seems fine to me). Guess I'm just a cinematic combat junky really -------------------------------------------- Nothing is as cruel as the righteousness of innocents
Lluthiunne Atalaron	Posted - 2006.08.25 10:45:00 - [32] Its fine to be honest with you. Took on a domi last night with 10 figters and a vaga. Credit to the guy he put up a fight. He was never going to win, but he took alot of pain before popping. I feel the length of battles is just right now, and an improvement of days past. I have some concerns regarding capital ships though. Some (for there price) seem a little vulnerable. "What?? I barely tapped him. Old people go down easy."Caroline Dhavernas
Kaylana Syi Minmatar The Nest	Posted - 2006.08.25 10:59:00 - [33] I will wait for combat boosters and rigs before posting on another one of these topics. eg... wait and see what kali brings Team Minmatar Carriers need Clone Vats
Roxanna Kell Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.08.25 11:04:00 - [34] Edited by: Roxanna Kell on 25/08/2006 11:05:53 Originally by: Jim McGregor I dont agree that combat is too short. The big hits and fast combat is why its FUN to start with. I seriously suggest they leave it alone. No dude read here. Quote: wanted by other players. We provide an enhanced canvas for the players to build up. Tricky, but eventually doable. Ship Sub-system Targetting The ability to target individual sub-systems of a ship in EVE has been something many players have wanted. Bringing more tactical choices to attacking a ship and disabling certain native ship abilities before going for the final kill (or simply going for the ransom). However, combat is far too short for this kind of tactical decision-making and of course the question remains, what sub-systems are targetable (warp drive, shield recharge, cap recharge) and when are they targetable (After shield is down? Then what happens to armor tanks? After armor is down? Are we then talking about structure tanks too?). Heat - The ability to overload your modules Ever wanted that Tachyon to go to "11"? Us too. That's why we want to do "Heat", where a module has a basic heat emission characteristic when used and a ship has a basic heat dispersion characteristic capable of halding certain amounts of heat emission from it's inner systems. If you then put that Tachyon to "11" it creates more heat, which your ship either can handle to disperse - or starts to take damage to ship, module or simply blows up. Brings a whole new meaning to "going out with a bang". Different tech levels of ships and modules would have better or worse emission or dispersion characteristics. However, combat is still too short for this kind of tactical decision-making. Combine this with sub-system targeting and it gets really interesting.
Ghitza Backup Squad	Posted - 2006.08.25 11:19:00 - [35] Edited by: Ghitza on 25/08/2006 11:20:15 Yes, combat (PvP) is short. Im paying to have 2 mins per 5h playing (it happened few times)? Pew pew and ship is down. Sometimes its even below 1 minute. There are some longer battles but its not enough in whole scale.
Wild Rho Amarr Imperial Shipment	Posted - 2006.08.25 11:25:00 - [36] I'm wondering if the simplest approach would be to tweak the rate of fire the weapons to reduce it to see what the effects are. While the idea of longer battles with more tactics beyond calling primaries would be great to go back to, I personally think all it will do is encourage more ganking/blobbing. There is also the problem of dealing with people who log out to save themselves, less firepower means more chance they may "escape". WE ARE DYSLEXIC OF BORG. Refutance is systile. Your ass will be laminated. - Jennie Marlboro
Plutoinum German Cyberdome Corp Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2006.08.25 11:44:00 - [37] Edited by: Plutoinum on 25/08/2006 11:44:56 I think the main problem is focussed fire especially with medium/long range setups, because there is no real drawback in this strategy. It doesn't require any piloting skills and big thinking from the BS pilots, except from the fleet commander. Everyone targets fast and almost all targets are within good combat-range of the whole gang. If typical mid/long range BS fights another BS of that kind, position is pointless and movement/tracking have no impact on anymore at that range due to low transversals. It's just 'select primary and fire' for the whole gang. Perfect damage (in no-time for the turrent ships) without the need to adjust combat-ranges and no need to care much about transversal speeds, except for the tacklers and cruisers. So everyone just targets, fires at primary and aligns to something to be able to warp out. Combat like shooting at a shooting range with auto aiming. I think it becomes more interesting, if the battle is spread out and you are in a smaller ship fitted for short-range, because then you have to move between targets and care about tracking and all that. It's not just: 'Primary, click, dead, next one.' for the whole gang. But I don't know, what to change, that we get away from this shooting range style fight with battleships, where 90% of a gang just switches between the same targets and doesn't have to care about anything and does high damage anyway.
Bazman Caldari The Establishment	Posted - 2006.08.25 12:47:00 - [38] A fight between two well setup battleships can last quite a while. Similar with smaller ship classes, but on average, when I've engaged a BS 1 on 1, the fight has lasted 1 to 2 minutes. How much longer should the fight take, we'll just end up sitting there tanking each other forever :p ----- Sig removed, maximum allowed image dimensions are 400x120 and maximum allowed size is 24,000 bytes. Please contact [email protected] for more info (including a copy of your picture!) -wystler Hi TUXFORD! Blasterboat for tier 3 Gallente battleship please! Make it look cool too. Thanks. I am a
Merdaneth	Posted - 2006.08.25 12:48:00 - [39] Edited by: Merdaneth on 25/08/2006 12:54:24 Edited by: Merdaneth on 25/08/2006 12:52:03 The primary purpose should be to lengthen the feeling of excitment, not just the proloning the time. CPP (and most people) seeem to think lengthening combat automatically lenghten the feeling of excitiment. This is not true and a major reasoning flaw. Combat itself is not too short, and just lenghtening it won't prolong the excitement. Combat is only exciting when you don't yet know the outcome. The insecurity is exciting. If you know the outcome but have to wait for 5 more minutes to get it, you will just get bored. Trust me. I regularly do lvl4's in my Inty, shooting down NPC battleships. Most of the time I know they will lose, I just have to wait for their tank to finally break, which can be up to 10 minutes. For me it is only exciting if I don't yet know if I can break their tank, or if they can break mine. After that point has been reached, its just routine mopping up, which I tend to do afk if I can. Done any PvP? You know then that a big part of the excitement is not just shooting at the enemy, but the anticipation: the scanning, the positioning, the warping in, seeing if you can close the distance, those first cycles of your ECM, the first couple of shots. Barring some extremely well-matched opponents, the outcome of the battle will be decided within 1-2 minutes tops, regardless if the actual battle will last longer than that. What CCP should do is lengthening the phase just prior, and just after combat. I would like to see more exciting chases, which is the method of making an uneven match exciting. Now its usually an all or nothing proposition, either you get away or you don't, little tactical options or decision making involved. Just look at movies or books, most suspension is built up prior to the confrontation, or comes from chase scenes. Chase scenes where the tables might be turned at some juncture. So I vote in favor more chases, and not lengthening of combats. P.S. Just look at some of the battles in the alliance tournament. Some were quite lenghty, but the battle was often decided in the first few minutes. Once the balance shifted, it was clear what the eventual outcome would be, even though that could be 10 or more minutes away due to extreme tanking. Those last 10 minutes were not particulary exciting.
Sable Schroedinger Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.08.25 13:07:00 - [40] Originally by: Merdaneth Edited by: Merdaneth on 25/08/2006 12:54:24 Edited by: Merdaneth on 25/08/2006 12:52:03 The primary purpose should be to lengthen the feeling of excitment, not just the proloning the time. CPP (and most people) seeem to think lengthening combat automatically lenghten the feeling of excitiment. This is not true and a major reasoning flaw. Combat itself is not too short, and just lenghtening it won't prolong the excitement. Combat is only exciting when you don't yet know the outcome. The insecurity is exciting. If you know the outcome but have to wait for 5 more minutes to get it, you will just get bored. Trust me. I regularly do lvl4's in my Inty, shooting down NPC battleships. Most of the time I know they will lose, I just have to wait for their tank to finally break, which can be up to 10 minutes. For me it is only exciting if I don't yet know if I can break their tank, or if they can break mine. After that point has been reached, its just routine mopping up, which I tend to do afk if I can. Done any PvP? You know then that a big part of the excitement is not just shooting at the enemy, but the anticipation: the scanning, the positioning, the warping in, seeing if you can close the distance, those first cycles of your ECM, the first couple of shots. Barring some extremely well-matched opponents, the outcome of the battle will be decided within 1-2 minutes tops, regardless if the actual battle will last longer than that. What CCP should do is lengthening the phase just prior, and just after combat. I would like to see more exciting chases, which is the method of making an uneven match exciting. Now its usually an all or nothing proposition, either you get away or you don't, little tactical options or decision making involved. Just look at movies or books, most suspension is built up prior to the confrontation, or comes from chase scenes. Chase scenes where the tables might be turned at some juncture. So I vote in favor more chases, and not lengthening of combats. P.S. Just look at some of the battles in the alliance tournament. Some were quite lenghty, but the battle was often decided in the first few minutes. Once the balance shifted, it was clear what the eventual outcome would be, even though that could be 10 or more minutes away due to extreme tanking. Those last 10 minutes were not particulary exciting. Whilst you have a point, I think you're missing the impact that should be found in combat from tactics. Movement, transversal, etc etc. Because you can pretty much drop in with those settings near optimal, theres very little to do once the guns start shooting. DonÆt get me wrong, there are some things that can be done once the fight starts, but they rarely last long enough to do them - either you're dead or the target is before you can execute more than 1 or 2 manoeuvres. If you lower the chances of hitting (enhance the impact of factors such as range, transversal, speed, sig radius etc rather than just an across the board lowering of hit chance) then what you do when you enter combat beyond F1, F2, F3à becomes important, and so there is more of an uncertainty to it û thus the fight is more exciting. -------------------------------------------- Nothing is as cruel as the righteousness of innocents
Merdaneth	Posted - 2006.08.25 13:36:00 - [41] Originally by: Sable Schroedinger Whilst you have a point, I think you're missing the impact that should be found in combat from tactics. Movement, transversal, etc etc. Because you can pretty much drop in with those settings near optimal, theres very little to do once the guns start shooting. I very much agree with you that enabling tactics to play a bigger role would certainly produce more excitement. Biggest problem is adding excitiment to uneven matches. When I get jumped by a Curse while in my T1 frig, lengthening the battle won't bring more excitiment. When someone gets blobbed 4 vs 1, more time won't bring more excitement. The additional tactical options given by a system that increases combat length don't really matter in such a case. People will always try to engage when they perceive they have the advantage. My estimate is that at least 80% of battles in EVE will remain extremely lopsided. Making uneven battles more exciting (by adding chase options for example) would by my first priority. Most tactics from current PvP take place prior to the actual fight. Fitting your ship, and deciding when to engage, or setting up proper traps and camps. That is where most tactical decision in Eve are at the moment, not in the actual fighting itself. Personally, I make more tactical decisions during battles in PvE than in PvP, because I chose my PvE battles to be at the edge of my ability to win them.
Jerick Ludhowe Arcana Imperii Ltd.	Posted - 2006.08.25 13:52:00 - [42] Give all ships a 100% increase to structure hp. Making fights longer is the goal here folks, making tanks that are unbreakable unless being ganked by several people is not.
Merdaneth	Posted - 2006.08.25 14:06:00 - [43] Originally by: Jerick Ludhowe Give all ships a 100% increase to structure hp. Making fights longer is the goal here folks, making tanks that are unbreakable unless being ganked by several people is not. As I pointed out above, making fights longer is not the goal, making the excitiment last longer is the goal. I furthermore suggested that a straight increase in combat time (by using your idea for example) offers only a very limited form of prolonged excitiment.
Maya Rkell Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.08.25 14:23:00 - [44] Roxanna Kell, There is a SINGLE high damage issue which stands out as breaking the effect of most of the other changes. That is T2 AMO! Fights between newer players without it DO take longer, and you are at a completely CRITICAL disadvantage without it. Remove T2 amo, and replace with amo which is T1+a small bonus. What your idea actually does is several-fold. First it makes NPCing much harder. Then it breaks POS combat. And then it nerfs small-group combat and makes tanking even less relevant compared to gank, gank, gank. It also dosn't stop snipers ganking in any way. "what if? they change the game so you can only be locked by 5 ship, woot woot. hmm, well that will be kinda crazy. jsut thinking about it, peopel would propebly exploit it and lock they re friends to mminimise damage." Yep. Allready discussed many times and dismissed for precisely that reason :/ So, what else CAN we do? ECM -> Partial Jams. This forces splitting fire. Add Flare ECM. (Everyone locking or has locked the ship takes a low-grade partial jam). Forces splitting fire somewhat in fleet. Add Global EW. (In large, 100+ man battles, you get a noticeable degredation of the ability of weapons and missiles to hit smaller ships, giving cruisers and frigates a larger role in huge battles!) Oh, and capitals need x3 hp, no question. But that's seperate from the considerations for other ships. ONCE this has been done, combat will be longer. But it won't be broken, either, and there will be if anything MORE and not less options. "Combine this with sub-system targeting and it gets really interesting" Snort. That makes combat shorter again. CCP do have a habit of nerfing their own changes, as T2 amo did to the tanking changes which most older players have not seen any effect from except more expensive tanking modules, due to T2 amo... "vyperpit" - HI GRONSACK! You can't give up can you with nerfing smaller ships. Plus you're all for nerfing small group combat, gee! If you want a game where 5 level 15's can't touch a level 20, I hear you can play..what was it... ah yes, "DAoC".
Maya Rkell Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.08.25 14:25:00 - [45] Originally by: Jerick Ludhowe Give all ships a 100% increase to structure hp. Making fights longer is the goal here folks, making tanks that are unbreakable unless being ganked by several people is not. Structure? That gives Gallente ships with damage controls a nasty and selective bonus.
Andreask14 Sensus Numinis Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2006.08.25 15:19:00 - [46] Battles in EvE last long enough. The real battle is fought economically anyway, and that fight can last for months, which gets tedious sometimes. Its perfectly fine that individual ships go down fast. If you have ever killed a few dreads in siege mode, you know that you would not want longer battles. Afterall, every fight is decided before it has even begun.
Larkonis Trassler g guild	Posted - 2006.08.25 15:55:00 - [47] Really what is so unbalanced at the moment? I think combat lasts long enough as it is... unless you get ganked but that's just the way life is, a cruiser shouldn't be able to stand up to the fire of a battleship... same way one battleship shouldn't last long against 5. No single ship class or setup is the be all and end all, there is always something better. Maybe if more/better tanking skills were introduced on a par with all the gunnery/missile ones, but apart from that I wouldn't want to see any changes. ------------ ZOMG!!!111 100K EMFI Share Lotto! 40 mil per ticket!!!
Lienzo Minmatar	Posted - 2006.08.25 17:01:00 - [48] Plenty of classes can't kill anything with superb efficiency. T1 Cruisers for example aren't really designed to efficiently harm any particularly used classes. T1 frigates maybe, but what doesn't kill those? The amount of isk out there coupled with insurance and an easily exploited mining class makes them non-prevalent. For no particular reason, they are better tanks than damage dealers, especially the passive variety. Perhaps cruisers are the new suicide tackler and nobody's caught on. Certain solo-oriented cruisers are an exception in solo situations or ganks as the thorax proves. If beams and such had their tracking increased to where they could follow an inty at 25-30km at perpendicular transversal (and not just when orbitting a friendly with low trans) I'd be singing a different tune. Interceptors have too much hull hp and usually have time to warp out if anything is a threat to them beyond a surprise gate camp. They are still the best option when caught in a gatecamp. They are not made of paper by any means with 3x the hp of a normal frigate and the damage output of a cruiser. The existence of NOS and precision missiles vs. inties just makes life harder on the destroyer pilots and makes their careers and role obsolete. Probably small turret tracking should be pushed up even more, even for the arties and beams to provide proper support with fewer numbers. There's just no much room programmed in for non-ganking pvpers that can't make 10-15M isk (+clones) between ship losses. Bring anything less and you're more likely to ward off targets than contribute in a small way. It's all about grinding npcs now if you want direct pvp. That's why I'm aiming for slightly off careers. The first time I took a vacation from EVE it was because of too much mining. If there's ever a future one, it will because of too much T2 required for even indirect pvp with nothing but ganking. RP empire piracy is looking better and better every day, when "self-sufficient" means being able to npc 5 hours a day for alliance pvp or have your own isk printing operation apart from your pvp, and needing a steady stream of HAC or BS to even join a functional merc corp. Desperate times call for desperate measures and I am not the type to give up in the pursuit of laziness and the avoidance of abject monotony. Republic Fleet phases out obsolete Vigils.
Malthros Zenobia Caldari Independent Navy Reserve Kimotoro Directive	Posted - 2006.08.25 19:29:00 - [49] Originally by: Engelious Angelion only real overpowerd craft in game is the Raven, which still with very low skills, is both more vertisile and powerfull than any other bs in game. A raven pilote with low skills, can easy with a tech I fitting go even with most tech II fittet bs's out there.... Always hits with in its range..... Can tank, and gank as the only ship currently in all of EVE. CAn tank, gank and EW as the only ship in EVE. Yes those Siege Is with their 24 sec rof base are really damn scary. I know I run like a coward when I see those 20 sec ROF newbies with their 500dmg torps. You're talking out of your ass completely. The ONLY ship to tank, gank and ewar? Yeah. No other ship does that, not the Domi for example. No, that thing can't tank, gank, nos, and ewar.
Cosmo Raata Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2006.08.25 19:56:00 - [50] EASY SOLUTION: Boost Gang modules. Create more gang modules. E.G. Instead of a boost of armor repping by 25% with max skills, make it 100% with maxed skills. This promotes teamwork and prolongs combat. Also makes support ships useful. Easiest solution ever.
Fedaykin Naib 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.08.25 19:58:00 - [51] Noooo!!!!! /emote runs screaming through this thread! "Long Live the Fighters!"
Gericault m0id Gallente Mercantile Exchange	Posted - 2006.08.25 20:33:00 - [52] Edited by: Gericault m0id on 25/08/2006 20:33:26 Of course fights are short when you blob everything you see Edit. 1v1 or small skirmishes are good length imho.
Roxanna Kell Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.08.26 07:48:00 - [53] please dont gadamn reply, if you can t be bothered to read the whole thread. youa sking the same gadamn questions that have all ready been answered. thread says give us ideas on how to make it last a bit longer, so that ccp can implement new tactical elements into the game.
Lisbo	Posted - 2006.08.26 08:16:00 - [54] Edited by: Lisbo on 26/08/2006 08:19:34 you cant touch rate of fires or dmg-bonuses...because then you throw the balance between dmg and tanking out of the window. if you ONLY want to make combat longer but keep the balance between the tanking and dmg output systems, ONLY increase HP as done already. do it again. thats it basically. to be honest the balance atm is fine, so dont touch the bonuses. you all seem to forget that if you boost lets say the repairer for 100%, then probably in a 1v1 you cant even take down the other ship anymore. i hope you understand that ;)
Testicular Testes	Posted - 2006.08.26 08:36:00 - [55] Edited by: Testicular Testes on 26/08/2006 08:37:38 Originally by: Merdaneth As I pointed out above, making fights longer is not the goal, making the excitiment last longer is the goal. The lack of excitement we're talking about here is mostly that losing in EvE is a bit too straightforward. We have webifiers with a fairly large range, heavy nosferatus, warp disruptors (20-30km) and most of all jammers - these things contribute alot to shorter combat and especially less excitement in a losing battle. There's very little interaction necessary on either side once a target is simply jammed, particularly in gang situations. It removes the excitement of fighting off tacklers, staying at range and keeping up transversal and whatnot just long enough to get enough points off you. Somewhat in the same vein with 90% webifiers with their wonderful range in group engagements - if you let someone web you, anyone can pile onto you. Snares and disables are the primary evil in medium/small scale combat that turns into simple gankfests. They're all way, way too effective. And in large scale combat it's sniping. That's an easy one though - as long as the turret tracking mechanics stay, we simply need much, much lower sniping ranges. Edit : Almost forgot why I quoted the post at the top. Chases totally need to make it in too, less of this binary escaping stuff. Warps should essentially be followable.
Doomed Predator Xoth Inc Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.08.26 11:10:00 - [56] I agree,combat is too short.I just took down a brutix in 1 minute.I had no t2 ammo or weapon modules.Either give sips more healt of make that weapons do less damage or raise resistance or something.But i mus say,although it lasted only 1 minute is was damn fun tbh. Nuh unh. Too big. 400w x 120h are the limits. --Jorauk

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