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Komodo Askold
No Code of Conduct
Fluffeh Bunneh Murder Squad
202
   |
Posted - 2014.11.19 12:33:25 -
[1] - Quote
So I was having a look at the Wormhole forum when I stumbled upon this topic. While it's quite close to a tear-filled rant, the OP has a very valid point. I'd like to address it here and propose a rather small change. Perhaps it should be him who wrote this, but it's a valid concern for anyone.
W-Space is, by design, a challenging place to get intel from potential targets. Pilots don't appear on Local chat, there are no "free" bookmarks, "gates" change everyday... If you want to gather intel about someone, we have to use our "in-character" tools: D-Scan, probes, warp drive, cloak...
But, if the hunter adds said target to his/her Watchlist, he can inmediatly know if the character is online no matter where is he, what is he flying, how is it fitted, or even his skills as a player (remembering to cloak ASAP, making sure ships don't have his name emblazoned on them...). By just hearing the "ping-ping-ping" and looking at the bottom-right corner of the screen, he can know that target is ready for being ganked.
This goes against the basic principles of W-Space I stated above. It's a similar issue to that of API NPC kills, where by using a 3rd party tool a hunting group could know much about a target group, effectively jumping over the intended difficulties of dealing with intel on W-Space. And that breaks the rules, to say it hard.
Of course the Watchlist is useful for hunting, as the API NPC kills were. Myself I have used it for such. But that doesn't mean it's fair. The problem is that once the target is watchlisted, there's nothing he can do about it, excepting trying to defend himself against an all-knowing enemy, or use this kind of "deus ex machina" himself... which is basically to "cheat" only because the ones harassing him "cheat" too. Such reasoning can keep circling itself endlessly.
Even if he's watchlisted because he was engaged once (and his hunters got his name), or forgot to change his ship's name, or because his Mobile Depots show his name when deployed, it isn't exactly fair. Sure, they now know about him, but that doesn't justify the hunters can perceive his presence beyond their ships' capabilities, which should be the only tools at their disposal.
So, here's my proposal:
Characters located in W-Space won't pop-up in anyone's Watchlist, independently on where the "watcher" is.
And I know that we like to have our friends watchlisted too and this would make them not appear either, but if friends were exempt from this, why would anyone not add their targets as friends so they show up? That would break the thing again...
I hope this topic raises awareness about this "weakpoint" in the system. If you have a better idea, please post it. And please be constructive. |
Phoenix Jones
Isogen 5
893
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Posted - 2014.11.19 14:22:18 -
[2] - Quote
Good proposal here. If you are looking for modifications on the watchlist, there are options.
To separate watchlists to friends and enemies, you can do what you proposed above, you could also do this.
1) To add friends to watchlist, must send notice that "this person" wants to friend you, if you accept, they now show up on your watchlist. To remove yourself from watchlist, remove self from being their friend. A simpler way to fix this is to allow people who you blue'd to see you on watchlist, and people you didn't blue (either neutral, bad or terrible), to not be able to watchlist you. I believe the mechanic for notifying a person that you have set them a current setting is already available ingame.
2) Have the watchlist have a cost to it. To watchlist a non-confirmed person, costs you isk per day.
3) Corporations or alliances you are at war with have no watchlist cost.
Ops concept is good, just throwing out some alternatives. Many people use watchlists to track friends, many use it track enemies. Should they be two different things? Maybe, but I agree with the op's post.
Yaay!!!!
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Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
784
|
Posted - 2014.11.19 15:07:39 -
[3] - Quote
watch list is not only against WH principles, its against any sanity in whole.
The watchlisted should be asked first whether one is allowed to watchlist him, such free easy intel is bad for any part of eve. |
Niskin
League of the Lost
74
|
Posted - 2014.11.19 15:35:31 -
[4] - Quote
Komodo Askold wrote: While it's quite close to a tear-filled rant, the OP has a very valid point.
No he doesn't. What he said was: "I'm affected by this mechanic but I refuse to use any of the options the game has given me to mitigate those effects." Outside of a WH he would have been at much more risk. Locator agents would know where he was and local would give him away. Inside a WH they have to scan you down, which they can't do if you slip out quietly.
To be fair, he was mad because he wanted to bear in his hole and they were preventing him from doing that. I'd be upset in the same situation, but I'd just change my plans rather than trying to change a mechanic which arguably has less of an effect on me in a WH than anywhere else.
Remember kiddies: the best ship in Eve is Friendship.
-MooMooDachshundCow
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Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings
Situation: Normal
2343
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Posted - 2014.11.19 15:51:18 -
[5] - Quote
Here's an interesting twist. It allows for the WL to be used for covert intel, while at the same time making people work for it.
1. You can watchlist anyone with there permission. That doesn't change.
2. You can only watchlist someone without their knowledge if you are on grid with them. That way in any space, it rewards you for working for your intel. (Having to warp to the POS where the players are hanging out, or watching the gate/WH). At the same time you can't then just go watchlist their entire corp for free. |
Teleil Zoomers
Usque Ad Mortem
TCC.
13
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Posted - 2014.11.19 16:16:46 -
[6] - Quote
don't know how i feel about this. currently the watch list can be used by both parties and its not really matters.
I also dont feel wh space is special enough to deserve their own modified version of watchlisting. If ccp was going to change the mechanics then they should think about changing the mechanics for all space. |
Komodo Askold
No Code of Conduct
Fluffeh Bunneh Murder Squad
204
|
Posted - 2014.11.19 16:25:33 -
[7] - Quote
Niskin wrote:Komodo Askold wrote: While it's quite close to a tear-filled rant, the OP has a very valid point. No he doesn't. What he said was: "I'm affected by this mechanic but I refuse to use any of the options the game has given me to mitigate those effects." Outside of a WH he would have been at much more risk. Locator agents would know where he was and local would give him away. Inside a WH they have to scan you down, which they can't do if you slip out quietly. To be fair, he was mad because he wanted to bear in his hole and they were preventing him from doing that. I'd be upset in the same situation, but I'd just change my plans rather than trying to change a mechanic which arguably has less of an effect on me in a WH than anywhere else. Yes, that's what I wanted to say with the first part of the phrase you quoted. What I meant with the complete phrase is that he brough to light the fact that the Watchlist can be used as a not exactly "fair" intel tool, given intended W-Space limitations. To put it bluntly, it's kind of an exploit, at least for me. We are not supposed to know when is someone around only because he logged in. Sorry if I didn't make it clear in the OP.
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Teleil Zoomers
Usque Ad Mortem
TCC.
13
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Posted - 2014.11.19 16:47:14 -
[8] - Quote
its not really an exploit. you don't know where some1 is unless you are camping where they logged off or have eyes on their pos.
no different than the mechanics in k space. |
Niskin
League of the Lost
75
|
Posted - 2014.11.19 17:05:14 -
[9] - Quote
Komodo Askold wrote:Yes, that's what I wanted to say with the first part of the sentence you quoted. What I meant with the complete sentence is that he brough to light the fact that the Watchlist can be used as a not exactly "fair" intel tool, given intended W-Space limitations. To put it bluntly, it's kind of an exploit, at least for me. We are not supposed to know when is someone around only because he logged in. What I want to say is I'm not making this topic for defending him, but for opening a debate about the use of the Watchlist in W-Space, and put it as an example. Sorry if I didn't make it clear in the OP; editing.
The reason I'm saying that the OP of the other thread does not have a point is that WH mechanics make the watchlist LESS effective in that space, not MORE effective. The reason the watchlist was MORE effective in his case was that he refused to do the one simple thing that was always available to him, be somewhere else.
With that said, I have no problem with people debating the watchlist functionality in general and won't impede the purpose of this thread in that respect. But you have to start with the facts, and the fact is, in a WH, the watchlist means d*ck all if you can't confirm the target is actually in it.
Remember kiddies: the best ship in Eve is Friendship.
-MooMooDachshundCow
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350125GO
Transcendent Sedition
Protean Concept
132
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Posted - 2014.11.19 17:19:57 -
[10] - Quote
The watch list is an abused mechanic, but it doesn't mean it should get special WH treatment. I also expect the coding to do your proposal would be quite complex and not worth the effort. I think the null pilots would have more feedback on the pros and cons of the WL than anyone in WH space.
It's useless intel unless you're in the same hole as the person on the WL, and even then it's only good if that person didn't log off in a SS you were already aware of.
You're young, you'll adjust.
I'm old, I'll get used to it.
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Lugh Crow-Slave
217
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Posted - 2014.11.19 18:58:18 -
[11] - Quote
i like this idea and would add that once you leave a hole you appear online if you re-enter it pops you up as offline |
Gadget Helmsdottir
Gadget's Workshop
77
|
Posted - 2014.11.19 19:07:20 -
[12] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:i like this idea and would add that once you leave a hole you appear online if you re-enter it pops you up as offline
No to this, but not to the OP. Watchlists might need to be reined in a bit, but I really don't want my tools to be lying to me.
--Gadget |
Jackson Apollo
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
20
|
Posted - 2014.11.19 19:13:54 -
[13] - Quote
+1 I guess.
I've never understood the watchlist, by lore or logic.
that's why I just stay logged in 23.8/7 if i need to "hide" from the list.
side note:
just get rid of the whole thing as far as im concerned. |
Jackson Apollo
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
20
|
Posted - 2014.11.19 19:16:20 -
[14] - Quote
Gadget Helmsdottir wrote:I really don't want my tools to be lying to me.
Did they fix the bug where WL folks already appear offline/online incorrectly at times?
I remember having to logout/in to get my list working in the past. (perhaps even 3 years ago as far as I recall) |
Komodo Askold
No Code of Conduct
Fluffeh Bunneh Murder Squad
207
|
Posted - 2014.11.19 20:28:15 -
[15] - Quote
Niskin wrote:Komodo Askold wrote:Yes, that's what I wanted to say with the first part of the sentence you quoted. What I meant with the complete sentence is that he brough to light the fact that the Watchlist can be used as a not exactly "fair" intel tool, given intended W-Space limitations. To put it bluntly, it's kind of an exploit, at least for me. We are not supposed to know when is someone around only because he logged in. What I want to say is I'm not making this topic for defending him, but for opening a debate about the use of the Watchlist in W-Space, and put it as an example. Sorry if I didn't make it clear in the OP; editing. The reason I'm saying that the OP of the other thread does not have a point is that WH mechanics make the watchlist LESS effective in that space, not MORE effective. The reason the watchlist was MORE effective in his case was that he refused to do the one simple thing that was always available to him, be somewhere else. With that said, I have no problem with people debating the watchlist functionality in general and won't impede the purpose of this thread in that respect. But you have to start with the facts, and the fact is, in a WH, the watchlist means d*ck all if you can't confirm the target is actually in it. I now see your point; I misanderstood. About the second paragraph of your comment, well, I started my reasoning from the point where the target is already located in a system and is being followed.
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Chaotic Past
Mutual Disruption
3
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Posted - 2014.11.19 20:36:32 -
[16] - Quote
Great proposition and im totally on board
+1 |
Niskin
League of the Lost
80
|
Posted - 2014.11.19 20:52:00 -
[17] - Quote
Komodo Askold wrote:I now see your point; I misanderstood. About the second paragraph of your comment, well, I started my reasoning from the point where the target is already located in a system and is being followed.
Fair enough. I'm not sure that's really a problem in a WH though. I mean the effect is the same anywhere, you aren't going to be able to PvE in the system you want to PvE in if people are hunting you using the watchlist. The difference in a WH is that once you slip away it's much harder to find you again. Now if they do see you slip out they might try to roll the hole behind you, which is a WH problem that kspace wouldn't run into. But then in kspace you can't hide because of locator agents and local. I just don't see how the watchlist is any more effective in wspace where it should be limited more than in kspace.
Remember kiddies: the best ship in Eve is Friendship.
-MooMooDachshundCow
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Komodo Askold
No Code of Conduct
Fluffeh Bunneh Murder Squad
208
|
Posted - 2014.11.19 22:03:31 -
[18] - Quote
Niskin wrote:Komodo Askold wrote:I now see your point; I misanderstood. About the second paragraph of your comment, well, I started my reasoning from the point where the target is already located in a system and is being followed.
Fair enough. I'm not sure that's really a problem in a WH though. I mean the effect is the same anywhere, you aren't going to be able to PvE in the system you want to PvE in if people are hunting you using the watchlist. The difference in a WH is that once you slip away it's much harder to find you again. Now if they do see you slip out they might try to roll the hole behind you, which is a WH problem that kspace wouldn't run into. But then in kspace you can't hide because of locator agents and local. I just don't see how the watchlist is any more effective in wspace where it should be limited more than in kspace. Perhaps "much more effective" is not the phrase, but more "rule breaking". Since on W-Space we should only know about ships by using probes, D-Scan, cloak... the Watchlist jumps all over those intended limitations.
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Zappity
Stay Frosty.
A Band Apart.
1569
|
Posted - 2014.11.19 22:11:49 -
[19] - Quote
Should have just posted here instead of the other troll thread.
Watchlist should stay but be limited to someone who accepts your watchlist request, probably linked to the 'Send notification' checkbox already in place when you add a contact. This keeps the useful functionality in place for friends.
In recompense, locator agents should be changed so they can will tell you if a person (who does not accept your request) is online even if in a wormhole. But there is a cost associated with that so it is not instant, free, recordable intel.
Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec.
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Teleil Zoomers
Usque Ad Mortem
TCC.
13
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Posted - 2014.11.19 23:02:04 -
[20] - Quote
this thread is crap just like the original posted in the wh forums. |
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Sugar Kyle
Snuff Box
Snuffed Out
779
|
Posted - 2014.11.19 23:03:39 -
[21] - Quote
Teleil Zoomers wrote:this thread is crap just like the original posted in the wh forums.
I find it quite interesting.
Member of CSM9
CSM9 Weekly Updates
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Jack Miton
Isogen 5
3960
|
Posted - 2014.11.19 23:18:33 -
[22] - Quote
Teleil Zoomers wrote:this thread is crap just like the original posted in the wh forums.
^this.
It's a non issue, move on with your lives people...
Stuck In Here With Me:-á http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/
Down the Pipe:-á http://downthepipe-wh.com/
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Seraph Essael
Devils Diciples
League of Infamy
970
|
Posted - 2014.11.20 01:37:45 -
[23] - Quote
Jack Miton wrote:Teleil Zoomers wrote:this thread is crap just like the original posted in the wh forums. ^this. It's a non issue, move on with your lives people...
Quoted for truth.
Quoted from Doc Fury: "Concerned citizens: Doc seldom plays EVE on the weekends during spring and summer, so you will always be on your own for a couple days a week. Doc spends that time collecting kittens for the on-going sacrifices, engaging in reckless outdoor activities, and speaking in the 3rd person."
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Niskin
League of the Lost
81
|
Posted - 2014.11.20 01:40:08 -
[24] - Quote
Sugar Kyle wrote:Teleil Zoomers wrote:this thread is crap just like the original posted in the wh forums. I find it quite interesting.
Read the thread that spawned it and I think you will suddenly find it less interesting.
Remember kiddies: the best ship in Eve is Friendship.
-MooMooDachshundCow
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Eldwinn
SomeWhat SophiSticateD
Shadow Cartel
87
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Posted - 2014.11.20 01:52:34 -
[25] - Quote
I did not realize this was an issue. All major groups have eyes on them all the time and every time a super logs in everyone in the immediate area knows about. However want you were wanting to do is prevent the ability to gather intel due to their wormhole presence. Really just deal with it. Everyone else has to.
With that noted a firm -1 |
Jur Tissant
The TERRA
Guardians of Serenity
325
|
Posted - 2014.11.20 03:40:09 -
[26] - Quote
Only problem is that it'd be deceptive if a player uses a WH to traverse between k-space systems, but honestly that's not a huge deal, I like that WHs are a big question mark as far as intel goes and this change would help reinforce that. |
The Hamilton
Outer Ring Sleeper Collective
Illusion of Solitude
84
|
Posted - 2014.11.20 03:56:40 -
[27] - Quote
I don't really see the problem and reason for the change beyond make a change for the sake of a change.
TLDR: No watchlist provides safety. WH's are not about safety so provide more options for the little guy but keep the risk for everyone.
It's just making use of extra intel gathering such as locator agents, bookmarking all the POSes you visit to quickly check player activity when rolling, checking things like staticmapper for activity, putting scouts permanently in a hole so that you can easily track and gank players living there and checking to see a corps prime time by their kills/losses, who is in that prime time and who isn't and how many members are in corp to determine who you can take and who's too powerful for your fleet.
WH's not having local doesn't mean no intel, it just means harder intel to come by. Removing or altering the watchlist won't remove the intel, it'll just make it harder to get. It also tends to be the least useful tool as you have no idea who you open up to each day. I'd find watchlisting much more useful in K-space than W-space. Unless you have no overwatch and you are stuck in a site pilots in the hole have more than enough time to address the OBVIOUS fact that a new sig just opened into them.
I think ganking should be easy in W-space honestly, it should be far riskier than K-space as the rewards are also greater. But like the recent changes to jumping wormholes, ganking should also be riskier too, not harder just riskier. Hopefully the T3 destroyers will help here as they are going to be the toughest things through the small ship wormhole and will have a safe exit from the T3 cruisers. Able to gank a distracted fleet and get out, all while fighting a class tougher than them without the logi ships a cruiser fleet can have (again risky).
Everything about W-space should feel terrifyingly risky. Making your log-in invisible does not do this. It makes it SAFE. So no. -1
To compensate how about some ideas that might make you feel better.
 Although I enjoy the escalation site running that C5 wormholes have, many seem a bit too secure for what W-space really is. While C6's usually have to go a longer chain to get to hi-sec C5's with C3/C2 connections don't. The only real risk is when moving the loot out of the wormholes. Change the chains to become longer for those getting a hi-sec static easily, creating more risk to move goods in and out for the bigger Corps and Alliances. Go take what is yours back! 
Sleepers (with **** loot) that show up depending on how many ships warp into a site. That way some of the gankers might die while they gank you. You won't survive but you can feel better about them not surviving too! 
Sleepers (with **** loot) that actually hang out on the wormhole tying fleets up with small scram ships. Probably good to make these take a long time to spawn and re-spawn.
Things that extract more tears from the hi-class wormholes more than the low-class ones really. Make the five Tengus, Loki and Legion waiting for the guy not willing to risk anything take more risk to just sit and hope he leaves or distract them a little so that he can see an opening to get clear. That way it gives him an option while also adding more risk. This then asks the bigger fleets to pilot with more skill to get their kills.
To really improve this though, there should be a stick of sorts to keep people from POSing up entirely too. So that when an opening becomes available they actually take it.
Here's a really crazy one! A site that closes a wormhole that opens into you with a bit of hacking. This can then be defended by the gank fleet hoping to keep the WH open or hacked and closed the WH either trapping the fleet in your hole with no backup or sending them scurrying back before it closes on them. This of course should only appear after a certain time to avoid being used to rage-roll holes and be risky enough to prefer rolling the normal way (a good way of generating "content").
Please keep in mind these ideas are just plain SILLY and off the top of my head and better ones surely exist. But I'm sure you get the idea.
TLDR: No watchlist provides safety. WH's are not about safety so provide more options for the little guy but keep the risk for everyone. |
Seraph Essael
Devils Diciples
League of Infamy
970
|
Posted - 2014.11.20 04:03:07 -
[28] - Quote
Komodo Askold wrote:Of course the Watchlist is useful for hunting, as the API NPC kills were. Myself I have used it for such. But that doesn't mean it's fair. The problem is that once the target is watchlisted, there's nothing he can do about it, excepting trying to defend himself against an all-knowing enemy, or use this kind of "deus ex machina" himself... which is basically to "cheat" only because the ones harassing him "cheat" too. Such reasoning can keep circling itself endlessly.
Even if he's watchlisted because he was engaged once (and his hunters got his name), or forgot to change his ship's name, or because his Mobile Depots show his name when deployed, it isn't exactly fair. Sure, they now know about him, but that doesn't justify the hunters can perceive his presence beyond their ships' capabilities, which should be the only tools at their disposal.
A) Eve isn't fair. If it is, you're doing it wrong.
B) 9/10 times people don't select the notify player option to notify the people they are hunting, so this whole argument is invalid because they don't even know they have been watchlisted. Of course this point will be twisted to say "oh see thats exactly why it's an issue" yada yada yada and bullshit reasons will be given. But at the end of the day it's paranoria that stops these people it bothers from playing.
C) It simply tells a person when someone is online, not where they are, what ship they are in and the people they have as their back up.
There are plenty reasons as to why the watchlist is fine as it is, these are just three of the more prominent ones that I see...
Quoted from Doc Fury: "Concerned citizens: Doc seldom plays EVE on the weekends during spring and summer, so you will always be on your own for a couple days a week. Doc spends that time collecting kittens for the on-going sacrifices, engaging in reckless outdoor activities, and speaking in the 3rd person."
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Zappity
Stay Frosty.
A Band Apart.
1570
|
Posted - 2014.11.20 05:11:01 -
[29] - Quote
Seraph Essael wrote:C) It simply tells a person when someone is online, not where they are, what ship they are in and the people they have as their back up.
Let's try a different version of that:
It simply tells a person when someone is in system, not where they are, what ship they are in and the people they have as their back up.
Exactly the same arguments are made for local. Maybe local should be introduced to wormholes?
Both are perfect, free intel and should be nerfed.
Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec.
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The Hamilton
Outer Ring Sleeper Collective
Illusion of Solitude
84
|
Posted - 2014.11.20 11:26:53 -
[30] - Quote
Zappity wrote:Seraph Essael wrote:C) It simply tells a person when someone is online, not where they are, what ship they are in and the people they have as their back up. Let's try a different version of that: It simply tells a person when someone is in system, not where they are, what ship they are in and the people they have as their back up. Exactly the same arguments are made for local. Maybe local should be introduced to wormholes? Both are perfect, free intel and should be nerfed.
So does a D-scan, should we remove that too?
Knowing who MIGHT be home with D-scan, Evewho and watchlists is different to living at home and using local to know who visits you. Removing the watchlists just helps farmers stay safer. Instead try giving them options when confronted by a bigger/stronger entity while remaining at risk. I'll say it again, wormholes are meant to be risky. |
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Komodo Askold
No Code of Conduct
Fluffeh Bunneh Murder Squad
210
|
Posted - 2014.11.20 12:06:49 -
[31] - Quote
The Hamilton wrote:*long post*
I see your point. Didn't remember about W-Space being supposed to be highly dangerous, and that this change would also be against that "rule" too. I like your last post, about giving more tools to targets instead of taking away the current ones. Thanks for the very constructive post.
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Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
790
|
Posted - 2014.11.20 12:07:35 -
[32] - Quote
Jack Miton wrote:Teleil Zoomers wrote:this thread is crap just like the original posted in the wh forums. ^this. It's a non issue,
it is one. Watchlist as instant free intel across universe with no restriction shouldnt be possible in such a form.
It harms guerilla warfare, it harms login traps.
Eldwinn wrote:I did not realize this was an issue. All major groups have eyes on them all the time and every time a super logs in everyone in the immediate area knows about it. However want you were wanting to do is prevent the ability to gather intel due to their wormhole presence. Really just deal with it. Everyone else has to.
With that noted a firm -1
why should you get an instanotification about someone logging in? Gather your intel by spreading eyes, especially since Phoebe supercap fleets have to be in near proximity to impend any threat on you. |
Seraph Essael
Devils Diciples
League of Infamy
972
|
Posted - 2014.11.20 17:13:29 -
[33] - Quote
Zappity wrote:It simply tells a person when someone is in system, not where they are, what ship they are in and the people they have as their back up.
No it doesn't. For all you know they could have logged in when you are all in bed and buggered off out. Congratulations, you are now sat in an empty hole thinking "oh crumbs, they are cloaked..."
Quoted from Doc Fury: "Concerned citizens: Doc seldom plays EVE on the weekends during spring and summer, so you will always be on your own for a couple days a week. Doc spends that time collecting kittens for the on-going sacrifices, engaging in reckless outdoor activities, and speaking in the 3rd person."
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Phoenix Jones
Isogen 5
899
|
Posted - 2014.11.20 18:18:45 -
[34] - Quote
I've been mulling this over the past hour to try to find the simplest concept to address the issues brought up by watch lists. Custom rules on location with watch lists probably won't work, as it's an extra check to the game regarding monitoring people. Also it does not aide in he benefit of checking on friends when they log on and off. With that said, if there is a issue regarding watch lists, it should be put on the people who want to track people. The concept centers around the notification of being watched.
The simplest way to deal with this is to add a price to monitoring people through a watch list.
Basically, you can watch list anybody you want, but it wont be free for enemies you don't want to notify.
Basically, for every person you want to watch list, you have to send a friend request. If they accept you as a friend, they get added and you get notified when they are on. No cost.
If you want to add a person and NOT notify them, it costs you isk. How much, depends. 5 notification watch list, daily cost 500,000 (per person). 10 person watch list and beyond. 1,000,000 per person.
Watch list for wardecs have no cost.
Basically, leave it, but charge the player for putting a person on a watch list who isn't a friend. The hardest part of that is telling people (if you want to know when people log in and log off, you'll have to notify them that you want to friend them).
That's about the simplest setup. Will anti social people hate this, notifying. People that they want to be your friend? Yes I'm sure. If your friends, it shouldn't be a big deal (and should bring people closer).
You want to watch someone, friend or foe, and not notify them, it will cost you.
Yaay!!!!
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Zappity
Stay Frosty.
A Band Apart.
1570
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Posted - 2014.11.20 21:15:15 -
[35] - Quote
Yeah, a cost system could work.
The Hamilton wrote:Zappity wrote:Let's try a different version of that:
It simply tells a person when someone is in system, not where they are, what ship they are in and the people they have as their back up.
Exactly the same arguments are made for local. Maybe local should be introduced to wormholes?
Both are perfect, free intel and should be nerfed. So does a D-scan, should we remove that too?
I don't think d-scan is a good comparison. It has limitations (range, must be clicked, does not get recorded in the notifications list) and requires skill to use to full effect.
Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec.
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scorchlikeshiswhiskey
Cirrius Technologies
O X I D E
337
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Posted - 2014.11.21 02:53:22 -
[36] - Quote
Zappity wrote:Yeah, a cost system could work. The Hamilton wrote:Zappity wrote:Let's try a different version of that:
It simply tells a person when someone is in system, not where they are, what ship they are in and the people they have as their back up.
Exactly the same arguments are made for local. Maybe local should be introduced to wormholes?
Both are perfect, free intel and should be nerfed. So does a D-scan, should we remove that too? I don't think d-scan is a good comparison. It has limitations (range, must be clicked, does not get recorded in the notifications list) and requires skill to use to full effect.
You can't warp to anyone from a watchlist. Target them. Shoot them. Gank them or bump them. You don't know if they're running sites or sitting in a safe cloaked while they go to class/work/the store etc....
All this whining about the big, bad watchlist is just that, whining. You can watchlist anyone you like, they can watchlist you. You c an sit in Jita and watchlist hundreds of players a day without even working. Oh no, now you know when all those people are logged on!! Do you remember the significance of each one of them? Are you currently watching them to see where they go and in what? If you fall victim to the terrible OP watchlist, it's likely that you were doing something wrong already. Especially in WH's. (Like if you decided to afk-rat in null and didn't spread your web of gate camps, who is to blame when you die?) |
The Hamilton
Outer Ring Sleeper Collective
Illusion of Solitude
86
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Posted - 2014.11.21 03:54:48 -
[37] - Quote
Zappity wrote:Yeah, a cost system could work. The Hamilton wrote:Zappity wrote:Let's try a different version of that:
It simply tells a person when someone is in system, not where they are, what ship they are in and the people they have as their back up.
Exactly the same arguments are made for local. Maybe local should be introduced to wormholes?
Both are perfect, free intel and should be nerfed. So does a D-scan, should we remove that too? I don't think d-scan is a good comparison. It has limitations (range, must be clicked, does not get recorded in the notifications list) and requires skill to use to full effect.
You're ignoring the point of the comparison. Knowing who is home is not like local, which is knowing who is visiting.
Also using D-Scan "to full effect" to know if someone is in system requires you to press it about 1-3 times while warping across system set to max range and 360. This is even better than a watchlist, because that doesn't tell you what system they are in.
So tell me, how does removing watchlists NOT make W-Space safer? |
Zappity
Stay Frosty.
A Band Apart.
1570
|
Posted - 2014.11.21 06:57:14 -
[38] - Quote
The Hamilton wrote:So tell me, how does removing watchlists NOT make W-Space safer?
What does that have to do with it? I never argued that removing it would make it either safer or more dangerous. I have only made the following points:
1. Watchlist should be maintained for friendly use. This isn't intel per se because you could easily be on comms or in channel with them.
2. Watchlist intel for non-friendlies is perfect (in that it s completely reliable and instant map-wide), free and recordable with the new notifications.
Perfect intel is incongruous with wormholes and (IMHO) should be incongruous with EVE as a whole. I'm surprised you don't see this as being a problem in your environment tbh.
Think about the introduction of the discovery scanner - wasn't that a huge problem because it greatly improved the quality of intel for zero effort? Seems like double standards to me.
Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec.
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Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Ineluctable.
984
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Posted - 2014.11.21 07:50:34 -
[39] - Quote
In my opinion it makes sense as no communication beacon (which are necessary for the communication between the ships' computers and central Concord databases where chat and watch list data is stored and processed) is reachable in W-space. That's why you don't have immediate chat, but delayed, the same should apply for watch lists. |
Luwc
Confederation of Independent Contractors
Swamphole
310
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Posted - 2014.11.21 08:09:45 -
[40] - Quote
-1
also "how is it fitted"
???
only if other sec's get balanced as well
i.e.
no local chat in null (requires destroyable structure)
No Concord - only Navy in High Sec
No Sentries on Low Sec stations and gates.
Wormhole space is already rarely populated. Making it even harder to life there will make it worse especially since with the newly added sites in K-Space the ISK/Reward for living in WH Space dropped.
I might as well go farm Havens, Hubs and Sanctums in CFC pockets with Intel Bots. Beeing safer than in High Sec.
http://hugelolcdn.com/i/267520.gif
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Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Ineluctable.
985
|
Posted - 2014.11.21 08:26:58 -
[41] - Quote
Luwc wrote:no local chat in null (requires destroyable structure)
No Concord - only Navy in High Sec
No Sentries on Low Sec stations and gates.
Wormhole space is already rarely populated. Making it even harder to life there will make it worse especially since with the newly added sites in K-Space the ISK/Reward for living in WH Space dropped.
I might as well go farm Havens, Hubs and Sanctums in CFC pockets with Intel Bots. Beeing safer than in High Sec.
Those Sleeper Sites drop next to nothing valuable. And you sell your blue loot to NPC orders anyways, which are not affected by how many people farm the loot and sites.
You opted to go to Madmax space on your own. If you are not able to survive there, it's not the fault of that area of space, it's your own incapability, which you need to blame. W-space is supposed to be absolutely rule-less and law-less, making it safer is not desirable.
Do you want to imply that you want to make active use of bots, which are prohibited by the TOS and EULA? Do you want to imply that you don't report these bots for bans?
Changes to K-Space are not required, as
- K-Space uses the gate network as a relay system for local chat activity
- Concord does not need to be removed, as it is a punishment force for High sec only. It does not affect any other area of space where you can do whatever you want, if it's that what you want to do.
- Low sec is still empire space. They are a basic tool to provide safety for stations and on gates against unreasonable aggression. If you don't want that, Null sec and W-Space are your desired areas of residence.
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The Hamilton
Outer Ring Sleeper Collective
Illusion of Solitude
87
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Posted - 2014.11.21 11:48:27 -
[42] - Quote
Zappity wrote:The Hamilton wrote:So tell me, how does removing watchlists NOT make W-Space safer? What does that have to do with it? I never argued that removing it would make it either safer or more dangerous. I have only made the following points: 1. Watchlist should be maintained for friendly use. This isn't intel per se because you could easily be on comms or in channel with them. 2. Watchlist intel for non-friendlies is perfect (in that it s completely reliable and instant map-wide), free and recordable with the new notifications. Perfect intel is incongruous with wormholes and (IMHO) should be incongruous with EVE as a whole. I'm surprised you don't see this as being a problem in your environment tbh. Think about the introduction of the discovery scanner - wasn't that a huge problem because it greatly improved the quality of intel for zero effort? Seems like double standards to me.
I don't care much for the lore. I think safety is incongruous with wormholes and removing the watchlists increases a players safety when logging in.
The D-Scan (directional scanner) was a great improvement, not a problem at all, because now both parties could react to an impending battle and make a decision on some intel gathered whether to fight or flee adding strategy to battles making them less random. Sure without it I could gank PvE players more easily, but all fights would just be random chance when stumbling blindly into one another. It also helps you spot out a scout and gives you some early warning that a fight might be coming. Now I do have issue with simply sitting in a POS as a response to that warning, but that's a discussion for another time. It does add safety, granted, but it is outweighed by the ability to quickly find targets and judge a battle to engage or even baiting.
Local generally works as a defensive intel tool, reducing fights.
Watchlists generally work as an offensive intel tool, increasing fights.
See how one works to create risk and the other to reduce it. While removing watchlists isn't as bad as adding local, it does reduce the offensive intel capability.
My environment does still have some problems (alliance bookmarks are a big one) but having the intel to be bothered trying to hunt others is not one of them.
If not for safety then I feel like you want to remove it for the sake of lore. Who said wormholes shouldn't have any instant map wide intel? And if they don't then what does that add to the gameplay? I really don't see a benefit. Can you share a scenario where removing the watchlist adds to the game experience. |
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