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Instas, a final solution...

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Ticondrius Gallente Coreli Corporation	Posted - 2006.08.31 20:24:00 - [1] Edited by: Ticondrius on 31/08/2006 20:41:04 I'm pretty good at taking bits and pieces from around the forums and formatting it all into a decent summary, while adding a thing or two from my own head, so here I will do so again. ################################################################ I. Summary of Issues Let's state the problems nice and clear: 1. Instas are a heavy load on the cluster. 2. Instas exist because crawling 15km to a gate is foolhardy at best in systems < 0.5 CCP's current opinion and seeming actions on the matter are: "Instas are bad, we want to get rid of them, but are unsure what exactly to do, but have some ideas...but no solid plan yet." CCP has set out some goals for the insta replacement: Linkage 1. Must be skill based somehow. 2. Must not give unfair advantage. 3. Must not involve BMs. Suggestions I've read so far that make sense: 1. The more often you visit a system, the more accurrate your warps become to locations in that system. 2. Nuke all the Instas BMs and make it impossible to make instas within 20, 50, 75, 100, 150, 500km of a gate...(compiliation of ranges from various posts). 3. Make warps land you at random positions and distances from the gate using the "warp to" distance as the maximum distance from gate you can be, then adding a skill to reduce that maximum distance down to 1km (2,500m is maximum jump range for those who don't know.) (I think this was one of CCP's ideas...) 4. Make a "Warp to 0km" option in all systems, and add more anti-warp devices. 5. Make Corp and Alliance level BMs that are availible to all members of said corp/alliance, making insta sets not needed on an individual basis. There's been a thousand ideas, many good, many bad, and some downright dumb. These noted here are probably the best ones I've read on the forums and from other places, and I'm going to attempt to condense them into a single solution that resolves all problems from both CCP's point of view, and our point of view as players. RABBLE! RABBLERABBLE!!
Ticondrius Gallente Coreli Corporation	Posted - 2006.08.31 20:25:00 - [2] Edited by: Ticondrius on 31/08/2006 20:25:50 ################################################################ III. Summary and Close So basically This adds a Warp Acurracy Skill and a system familiarity attribute for the pilot, while eliminated all BMs in the same area of a gate AND prevents new ones from being made in the same area. It also adds the concept of Corp and Alliance BMs which should help strategic and tactical organization considerably. On the server-side, it eliminates the BM load issue, while providing a complete game-side solution that will not murder the cluster on each session change or login. And finally, from the perspective of a New player, you can train Warp Acurracy to IV within 2-3 days, and get familiar with systems just as easily as anyone else, giving you instawarp capability within a relatively short period of time, while avoiding issues of BM scams, and being plastered by a random gate camp in your Iteron II while carrying most of your EVE posessions in it. I know this is "Yet another instas" topic, but I tried my best to provide a complete and coherent solution. I only ask for similarly thought out replies and constructive critisim. Trolls will not be fed, and ignored. RABBLE! RABBLERABBLE!!
Ticondrius Gallente Coreli Corporation	Posted - 2006.08.31 20:25:00 - [3] Edited by: Ticondrius on 31/08/2006 20:29:11 ################################################################ II. Outline of Solution 1. Corp and Alliance BMs is a GREAT idea. Coupled with the rest of the Solution, C/A BMs allow for members to instantly share locations without the need to copy the BM into an item, transfer said item to all recipients, and then upload that now multiplied many times over BM, into many BM folders. The only thing on CCP's side to do it that I can see is to edit the places tab to show them, add a flag for corp and for alliance owned BMs to the BM table, add a C/A BM folder table on the server so that they can be kept track of (Kindof like they have itemids and stackids to keep track of which items are in what stack) and then link the ability to DELETE corp/alliance bookmarks to certain roles, like directors and CEOs, any member should be able to add to a corp BM store, but I think alliance's should decide to allow all members, or just corp CEOs and directors to add BMs to the alliance store. 2. "Warp Acurracy" Skill. Currently, a normal warp lands you at about 15km from your target. Warp Acurracy reduces the distance by 10% per level. It should probably be a rank 1 or 2 skill and require Warp Drive Operation IV (NOT V). At level V, the skill will reduce the distance to 7.5km in a system you've never visted. This also keeps the CCP concept of "reduced returns" for higher levels at heart. 3. I do not believe the instas solution should be entirely skill based. So, I suggest a "familiarization" attribute that's loaded with the player upon session change for the destination system. This is the BASE distance reductor, while the Warp Acurracy skill is a MODIFER distance reductor. The more often you visit a system, the higher your familiarity with it and all warpable objects in it, including tactical BMs. It should range from a value of zero (never visited before) to 10, reducing the warp to range by 1km each step. At maximum familiarity, you reduce the "warp to" range down to 5km. It should take a considerable amount of time in the system to actually gain maximum familiarity, something like 72 hours or more, and there should be only a textual indicator of how familiar you are with a given system. You should not gain familiarity time for a system by sitting in a station or while cloaked and AFK. All other actions in space or lack of actions, are valid for gaining familiarity. Also, familiarity should be LOST over time if a pilot does not spend a consistant amount of time in space, in the given system. This repvents everyone from maxing the skill then maxing familiarity in most systems and makes it a bit more dynamic and more based on player actions. 4. Quick summary of points 2 and 3. So with max familiarity, you still have 5km to go to a gate or other object, If you lack the Warp Acurracy skill. If you have the Warp Acurracy Skill at level V and have never been to the system before, you will reach the gates or stations at 7.5km. If you have BOTH, maximum familiarity AND Warp Acurracy, you will land about 2.5km from the gate. You may or may not land inside the jump range, but that measure of probability is necessary I think to keep chases fun and interesting. At least it's not the probability of using a BM set for the first time only to find out they were made for 20km jumpins, leaving you 5km from the gate, oops. 5. Finally, all BMs that are within the same area (450km range I think it is?) as a gate, will be erased, and no more will be allowed to be made. A good RP excuse is that due to jumpgate efficientcy software upgrades, Navigation Bookmarks can no longer be acurractly made near them. The reason is, that we can still warp to ranges like 100km or so, meaning that if you nerf BMs within the maximum possible warp to range, you can still set a BM on the other side of the gate and have an insta, so they simply have to be eliminated entirely from the same area as the gate. RABBLE! RABBLERABBLE!!
Verus Potestas Caldari Fiat Mort	Posted - 2006.08.31 20:27:00 - [4] 1) is not cool, and I hope CCP never consider that a constraint. New players should not get nuked by default, and adding a skill that absolutely everyone needs to train to gain any degree of safety or keep up with a gang is ridiculous IMO. Did we really need a new thread though?
Ticondrius Gallente Coreli Corporation	Posted - 2006.08.31 20:28:00 - [5] Edited by: Ticondrius on 31/08/2006 20:31:17 Were you so quick to post that you missed the second and third parts of this post? :P Goal 1 is something CCP set out a long time ago for an instas solution. I think a skill is good, but should not be the only part of the equation. RABBLE! RABBLERABBLE!!
Verus Potestas Caldari Fiat Mort	Posted - 2006.08.31 20:29:00 - [6] I missed the third... I was referring to goal 1).
Zirator Times of Ancar R i s e	Posted - 2006.08.31 20:30:00 - [7] Manual warp = 0km + Autopilot warp = 15km => everyone happy and travel in EVE fixed. And please NO skillbased system.
DropZone 187	Posted - 2006.08.31 20:31:00 - [8] You forgot to include 'complexity' into your solution requirements. As your 'solution' is complex requiring quite a bit of additional code, it fails. Allow warp in to 0km, shift the gates 15km to make current bms useless and offer up a bounty of 10isk/bm to turn them in for deletion. The gankers already got their wish with the gate system queues, so it is time for the rest of us to get our 'balance'.
Maya Rkell Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.08.31 20:32:00 - [9] "CCP has set out some goals for the insta replacement" Link plz. That does NOT tally with previous posts. "Suggestions I've read so far that make sense:" ..Some don't. 1 is a pure grind, and unusable where you really need it. 2 is a pure removal, no? 3 is skill-based, which CCP definately did NOT ask for. CorpBM's and 0km default and the only ones which afaik would work at any pace. //Maya
Ticondrius Gallente Coreli Corporation	Posted - 2006.08.31 20:33:00 - [10] Edited by: Ticondrius on 31/08/2006 20:38:16 Edited by: Ticondrius on 31/08/2006 20:34:36 The guidelines CCP set out were in some dev blog ages ago...I think soonish after Exodus was deployed. Also, "suggestions that I've seen that make sense" were meant to show where my solution came from, and by no means are they a solution in and of themselves. I agree wholeheartedly with you on that point. As far as complexity, the explination is complex, the code is not. It requires 2 fields to be added to an existing table for BMs, 1 field to be added to wherever they keep track of user variables, 1 skill, and not even a single function of code, just modifications to the warp function to include a modifyer for the skill and to change the base of the warp based on the familiarity. It would work for manual or autopilot warps, as instas don't include only gates, but stations and other locations as well. RABBLE! RABBLERABBLE!!
Gift Amarr Loot	Posted - 2006.08.31 20:35:00 - [11] "No Warp to 0" option, ever! Pirates of Eve, Join channel "Pirate" Today!
Verus Potestas Caldari Fiat Mort	Posted - 2006.08.31 20:36:00 - [12] Originally by: Gift "No Warp to 0" option, ever! It's just the current systems, with less boring insta copying and less lag
Maya Rkell Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.08.31 20:37:00 - [13] Ticondrius, again, link. Because those are incorrect per the old blog. //Maya
Gift Amarr Loot	Posted - 2006.08.31 20:41:00 - [14] Edited by: Gift on 31/08/2006 20:40:45 Originally by: Verus Potestas Originally by: Gift "No Warp to 0" option, ever! It's just the current systems, with less boring insta copying and less lag Imo the current system is broken. Fix it once & be done with it. Pirates of Eve, Join channel "Pirate" Today!
Ticondrius Gallente Coreli Corporation	Posted - 2006.08.31 20:42:00 - [15] Edited by: Ticondrius on 31/08/2006 20:42:48 Added link to mentioned dev blog...though it doesn't mention skills, it DOES mention that they don't want players gaining the advantage of BMs without an in-game mechanic, so out goes the "warp to 0km" option as the complete solution. I think the actual reference to a skill being involved was from a dev chat or some other media which I cannot recall. I'll link it if I can find it. RABBLE! RABBLERABBLE!!
Kaomi Zorbaz	Posted - 2006.08.31 20:54:00 - [16] 1. Possible, but I suggest corps have the ability to insta around concurrently held systems. The theory is, they own the systems, it is their home ground, they should know how to navigate it the best. 2-3. One of the reasons CCP appears to want to address this issue is database load from bookmarks. Adding attributes for each player based on each system has just created a lot of fields to fill and pull from, probably more than bookmarks. Solution looks worse from a database standpoint than the current system. 4. I think change the default range on gates is a good option. Skill it up or just change it to 5 kms.
Mss Alt Gallente The Alt Foundation	Posted - 2006.08.31 21:01:00 - [17] As I posted in another thread: Solution: high slot module named "advanced navigation mechanism" witch can be loaded with a specific region map and that can make you warp to 0km to the gate. Make it require a bit of cpu so it will only help if you are travelling or you're the "gang warp" guy in a gang. Also make the star charts take lots of cargospace. With Kali comming, you can even make those star charts as rewards for faction missions. Each faction hands out starcharts for their regions, whereas charts for no npc regions could be sold by concord or produced in research outposts in that region. This would solve a couple of problems: 1. reduce bm loads 2. make room for some specialized vessels for gang warps/travel (maybe vessels that increase warp speed?) 3. make the caldari outpost a usefull thing to deploy 4. provide new reasons for running gank squads in other alliances space (gank somebody with the starmap in cargo so you can do a proper invasion afterwards) 5. make it easier for alliances to defend their space against gank squads 6!!!. actualy make the navitas a star mapping ship (make some module to activate in a constelation/region and produce a star map)
Ticondrius Gallente Coreli Corporation	Posted - 2006.08.31 21:05:00 - [18] A single attribute for each player for systems they visit often is VERY light on the server compared to loading BMs every system jump. Note that the default for familiarity is zero, and that is hard coded, thus if you've never visted a system before, it dosn't even check for the familiarity value When it does, it only needs to check an integer, and return that one field to the code for processing, not an entire result row which contains both strings and signed integers. On the other hand, when you enter a system, not one but as many as 2 or MORE entire ROWS are loaded from the database..EVERY time you enter a system. I doubt CCP's DB design is inefficient as to be loading all your BMs in every system. RABBLE! RABBLERABBLE!!
Kaomi Zorbaz	Posted - 2006.08.31 21:19:00 - [19] I'd hope they are caching the BM's clientside when you logon your character. If not that is a great way to reduce the BM load issue. As for checking familiarity, you are looking at a minimum of 1 read because you have to check, other wise how will you know if it needs to set a level? If it returns a true then you have two reads. Two seperate transactions will put a strain on the DB. my .02
Ticondrius Gallente Coreli Corporation	Posted - 2006.08.31 21:24:00 - [20] Load familiartiy: "SELECT `familiarity` FROM `user_vars` WHERE `userid` = 'VAR_userid'" Update it on timer tick: "UPDATE `user_vars` SET `familiarity` = `familiarity `+ 1 WHERE `userid` = 'VAR_userid'; So upon entering, there's only one query..while the updates only happen every so often over time that you are in the system AND in space NOT while cloaked. RABBLE! RABBLERABBLE!!
Siri Blue Gallente Eve University	Posted - 2006.08.31 21:24:00 - [21] Just make bookmarks cost upkeep (1000+ISK per week and bookmark) And the issue will be solving itself...hurt people's wallets and they will react (by deleting surplus unneeded bookmarks)
boldielocks Amarr Murky Ink Distant Star Alliance	Posted - 2006.08.31 21:31:00 - [22] why does everyone have to come up with ideas that have to do with skills, we have a basic method that has been used for a long time, why not work with this basic princable, Bookmarks. Would it be possable to create a 1 time database of all the instas needed, which would be accsesable thru purchace from agents or npc market, for consallations or regions for x amount per bm. This would have to be none tranfherable thou so every one would have to purchase them. The lag of 10000s of people carrying bm's would be reduced becasue they are all the same bookmark which people are accsesing. Ok i can see a few programing problems from it but i'm not a programer and Don't claim to be. Now a few people would claim this does them out of isk generating opertunitys but tbh this was never intended to be anyway. any thats my basic idea which does not include any skills or warp to 0 options Also you could have the same penetly as a not uptodate clone with a lost of a random amount of bookmarks if ou don't have a uptodate clone therefore bringing another isk sink. Now I don't think that this idea radicaly changes the current balance of the game becasue the instas are already out there for purchase to every region in the game which put you on the gate ready to jump. anyway thats all folks pls commint on this idea and add to it if you have more ideas for it. There's no such thing as madness, just diffrent degrees of normality.
Ticondrius Gallente Coreli Corporation	Posted - 2006.08.31 21:34:00 - [23] Edited by: Ticondrius on 31/08/2006 21:36:06 When will everyone realize that CCP wants to eliminate BM based instas ANBD replace them with a game mechanic? Simply deleting involved BMs is NOT an option. Boldilocks, read the dev blog linked to in my OP. RABBLE! RABBLERABBLE!!
Arkanor Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2006.08.31 21:39:00 - [24] Edited by: Arkanor on 31/08/2006 21:40:29 No skills. Adjust warp speed of ships to suit their "natural" speed. Add "Warp Speed Booster" modules using the already-in-place Navigation skills as prereqs. Warp to 0KM by default. Although, personally, I am of the persuasion that travel, especially considering it's boring; doesn't need to take forevor. Originally by: Ghosthowl WoW = hardcore paladins smashin dat face. Originally by: HippoKing I just cried, you know that?
Ticondrius Gallente Coreli Corporation	Posted - 2006.08.31 21:43:00 - [25] As for the skill, you realize it takes like 12 hrs tops to train a rank 2 skill to III? maybe a bout a day and 3 quarters to IV? Warp Drive operation is a fairly basic skill, and is rank 1 also, makes sense to be able to know how to OPERATE the warp drive before getting acurrate with it. As said in my OPs, it'd take 2-3 days to get to Warp Acurracy IV from warp drive operaton 0, hardly a daunting task. RABBLE! RABBLERABBLE!!
Barwinius Ars Caelestis Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.08.31 21:54:00 - [26] Similar propositions to what I am about to write may already have been posted, but hereÆs my take to the problem: I would like to see instas replaced with a limited navigational ship implant, similar to the upcoming rig system. A Star Chart could be plugged into your ship to enhance the navigational computer for a specific region, similar to how skill implants function. NPCs would seed regular Star Charts in their stations and drop more durable Star Charts as Faction loot. These Star Charts would allow gate-to-gate travel within a region for a limited amount of time, eventually degrading and requiring replacement. This would result in new market demand, as far-away regions or rarer Faction Star Charts would not be readily available without player action. T1 ships would only be able to carry a very limited number of Star Charts, perhaps 2 or 3. T2 ships would be able to carry a couple more, 3 or 4. Recon cruisers would be able to carry the most Star Charts, 4 or 5. Large fleet movement would require more realistic planning as a Star Chart for each region would be necessary, not to mention duplicates for the sake of redundancy in the event of ship loss. As an addition to this, perhaps everyone in a gang could have access to the Star Charts as long as they are all in the same system. Bookmarks could go back to being used for safe spots or whatever their original intended functionality was. To further reduce the potential of bookmark lag, remove the option to copy bookmarks while not in station, limit the number of copies at a time, and do not allow bookmarks to exist in cargo holds. Similarly, disallow the creation of bookmarks on the same grid as a stargate. I think this would add a very interesting element to the game, maintain the functionality of instas, and eliminate the possibility of bookmark-based lag. As a side note, to appease the anti-G2G people, allow warp bubbles to be placed in low-sec areas. If a non-war target person gets caught in the bubble, that person should get kill rights. This behaviour would be similar to the current can-flagging implementation.
Ticondrius Gallente Coreli Corporation	Posted - 2006.08.31 22:08:00 - [27] Edited by: Ticondrius on 31/08/2006 22:09:08 The star chart module and chart idea was proposed a few posts up and integrated into my total idea. I don't really like the idea of it being an implant, as that would take up the hardwiring slot that someone might want to use for something else, and make it even more exclusive a feature than more widespread. RABBLE! RABBLERABBLE!!
Caedicus	Posted - 2006.08.31 22:45:00 - [28] A. Shouldn't this be in the Features and Ideas channel? B. Isn't there a BM suggestion thread? "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind." -Ghandi
Darviaari	Posted - 2006.08.31 22:56:00 - [29] And what about nex "tax"? 2500 isk for BM per day? (number should be balanced) Peaple will have only instas that they need. Maybe this should be done without instas. Just something you can choose the gates, that you want to warp to 0 km and pay for them? In RP something like that by gravity the objects in space are moving slowly. So if you want to have your navigation computer up to date, you must update the data. And you have to pay for it. If you have not updated navigation data, you will warp only approximatelly - random from 5km to 15 km. With this sollution you will ger rid of instas (less load in DB, less Lags), people using same trips, can travel quickly. But there will still be players to shoot at the gates. There could be some restriction: 1) When you buy the "insta" it will take some time to update your navigation computer - so you can warp to 0 km 4 hours after paying?
Turin Caldari RONA Deepspace Rule of Three	Posted - 2006.09.01 00:14:00 - [30] Originally by: Gift Edited by: Gift on 31/08/2006 20:40:45 Originally by: Verus Potestas Originally by: Gift "No Warp to 0" option, ever! It's just the current systems, with less boring insta copying and less lag Imo the current system is broken. Fix it once & be done with it. Warp to 0 does fix it. ________________________________________________________

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