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Target Painters, 4tl?

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rexsum	Posted - 2006.09.01 22:12:00 - [1] as it stands now minmatar is still stuck with a racial ecm wich is kinda rubbish compared to the other ones. it's an ecm type wich is used for attack instead of defence in case of the other three types( other types prevent/delay lock or make hittingg you harder). Problem is that missiles benefit most from that it seems, at least i never noticed any difference in damage, but maybe a numbers guru can shed some light on that. it also doesnt help with the defence of your vessel as whatever your painting can still shoot you with ease, unlike the other three ecm types. anyone know if ccp said they were gonna change this, and/or can confirm my notion of painting being rubbish for projectile weapons?
Max Hardcase	Posted - 2006.09.01 22:29:00 - [2] They're usefull if you would have tracking problems otherwise but thats about it. ---------------------------------------------- Max Hardcase > yawn-o-rama Max Hardcase > is this typical of RA warfare ? FreaKsh0 > yes boredom fitted in all their high slots
Guurzak Minmatar	Posted - 2006.09.01 22:54:00 - [3] Target painters won't increase projectile damage, but they do increase projectile accuracy. The hit-or-miss formula includes a factor based on comparing your weapon's signature resolution to the target's signature radius. Target painters can help improve that ratio, so you'll land more hits and get better quality hits. If you play with the tracking calculator at http://www.eve-online.com/guide/en/g26.asp , you'll see the effect of increasing target sig on your accuracy and DPS.
LeMoose The Collective Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2006.09.01 22:59:00 - [4] rage torps + huginn / muninn = drool huginn or the muninn must have dual webs and couple of tp's
rexsum	Posted - 2006.09.01 23:04:00 - [5] support for rage ravens or having ecm to defend oneself seems quite a big gap ,and it would be nice if minny recons can defend themselves like the other ones now that you can gank them while they are fielding a cyno
Vasiliyan PAX Interstellar Services Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2006.09.01 23:04:00 - [6] They make a signifigant difference to torp damage, and enable the other members of your gang to lock the target faster. But yes, in PvP more jamming is always better.
Mike Yagon Minmatar The Nest	Posted - 2006.09.01 23:14:00 - [7] I used a targetpainter today on an Arbitrator (Drone cruiser), inties and frigates died real fast to my drones then, as I could use a bigger drone type. ------ In Carebear We Trust
inSpirAcy Caldari The Solopwnmobiles	Posted - 2006.09.01 23:22:00 - [8] Originally by: rexsum support for rage ravens or having ecm It is, fix ECM.
Nafri Caldari Cataclysm Enterprises Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.09.01 23:53:00 - [9] Originally by: LeMoose rage torps + huginn / muninn = drool huginn or the muninn must have dual webs and couple of tp's you talk about rapier? But well, a bellicose is as good for the job, even a vigil is enough From Dusk till Dawn
Dred 'Morte Minmatar Sammael's Legion Arkhangelos Command	Posted - 2006.09.02 00:20:00 - [10] I fit 6x Target Painters II on my Raven and frigates were still not as big as battleship. Uberly nerfed modules if you ask me. Boost Target Painter range a bit and increase sig bonus to 40-50 for tech I and II respectively. Please. Signature made by Mr Floppykickners
Uggster Caldari Shinra Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.09.02 01:03:00 - [11] TP's had to be nerfed after they first came out cos they where overpowered. I was painted (with 1 T2 painter and the guy painting me at lvl 3 on the second TP skill and lvl 4 on the first) to 1.2k, yes 1200m, in a crow as I made a MWD approch and about 400m odd as I obited without the MWD on. Serfice to say he did not have much of a problem hitting me and nearly destroyed me with a wrecking hit by accident. They needed to be nerfed a bit but they dont stand a chance to get a look in the EW action cos jamming is so much more effective on the whole. And thats the real problem.
rexsum	Posted - 2006.09.02 01:04:00 - [12] Originally by: Dred 'Morte I fit 6x Target Painters II on my Raven and frigates were still not as big as battleship. Uberly nerfed modules if you ask me. give the raven a tp bonus , give the rapier something usefull
Tachy	Posted - 2006.09.02 07:25:00 - [13] TP have a stacking penalty - on the target. It only supports your friend's locking speed if you can paint faster than they start locking. Damage from turrets is organised in groups. Wrecking hits seem to be dealt with a fixed chance, the other groups vary depending on the tracking and target size. Projectiles aren't known for good tracking, so the painter is just another way to unnerf them - like double-damage bonus from Minmatar ships. --==*-- Even with nougat, you can have a perfect moment.
Majin82 Caldari Arkhangelos Alliance Naval Intelligence Arkhangelos Command	Posted - 2006.09.02 13:58:00 - [14] At least TP's are cool looking.. ------------------------------------- Sammael's Legion ARCH
RoMUF	Posted - 2006.09.03 09:52:00 - [15] They give a % bonus to sig radius. Wich means the effect on small ship is tiny and effect on big ships (with already a big sig radius) is huge (the sig raising effect). Wouldn't it be better if it just adds like X meter sig radius or something? This would make small ships big and big ships a bit bigger. They could finally have the impact other EW has.
Pesadel0 Vagabundos	Posted - 2006.09.03 09:56:00 - [16] It is good that we have the best ECM to support the caldari.
Naim Stargazer	Posted - 2006.09.03 11:20:00 - [17] Edited by: Naim Stargazer on 03/09/2006 11:20:53 The formula for turret tracking makes good use of the target ships sig radius compared to the signature resolution for your turret. If your turrets are unable to track the target due to it moving at a high transversal, the three ways of making them hit the target more often are: increase your turret tracking (gyrostabalisers, etc.), slow him down (webber), or increase his signature radius (target painters). A nice bonus of the target painter is that the increase in sig radius on the target goes for any mates you got with ya too. They hit him easier as well. Its worth noting that you cant feasibly get enough speed to outrun the explosion velocity of missiles, so if the size of your missiles is mis-matched to his signature radius, a target painter can significantly enhance your probability of landing a good missile on his ass! I have tried to explain the turret tracking formula (which calculates what percentage of your turret shots will hit the target) in an article: http://www.eve-digest.com/2006082023.html Its not my best written one, but hopefully even if you arent a 'maths type', you'll see what contribution the signature radius comparison has to the final chance to hit. And in seeing that, understand what kind of effect target painters would have. However you are still correct in that jamming is much more effective! Target painters seem pretty good. Its jamming that needs to be toned down, and the devs are aware of this. I'm sure the mechanic will be changing over the coming months!
Ghoest	Posted - 2006.09.03 14:51:00 - [18] Ammar Ewar is just as as Minm. As always Caldari and Gallente are the way to go. Wherever you went - here you are.
XGS Crimson	Posted - 2006.09.03 14:58:00 - [19] meh
Harry Voyager Obscurity LLC	Posted - 2006.09.03 19:24:00 - [20] The hit probability vrs sig/res curve is highly nonlinear. On the small sig side of the function, it dropes off so rapidly to zero, that target painters have basically no effect for turrets, when firing at smaller targets, and on the large sig side, there is almost no variance from sig=resolution, such that target painters don't help turrets against equivalent sized targets, either. Turrets gain much more from changing the tracking vrs transverse velocity relation, than they do from changing the sig/resolution relation. Just run a comparison of the difference in dps between a 37.5%/51.5% sig change, a 30% tracking change, and a 75% velocity penalty, to see the real impact of adding a TP, Tracking Comp, or a Webber into your fitting. The TP just doesn't cut it. Harry Voyager
Farjung Gallente TAOSP	Posted - 2006.09.03 19:35:00 - [21] Originally by: Harry Voyager Just run a comparison of the difference in dps between a 37.5%/51.5% sig change, a 30% tracking change, and a 75% velocity penalty, to see the real impact of adding a TP, Tracking Comp, or a Webber into your fitting. The TP just doesn't cut it. Harry Voyager Um, a sig radius increase of 30% is directly equivalent to a tracking increase of 30%. You do get the optimal range boost from tracking computers though, which may or may not have an effect depending on the situation. (((Transv / (Range * Tracking)) * (Sig_Res/Sig_Rad))^2) is the part of the chance to hit formula that relates to tracking + sig radius vs transversal, and as you can see, the effect of increasing sig radius is identical to the effect of increasing tracking. Of course webs will have the most effect, but they also have much more limited range. --- Wave of Mutilation 2
Chronus26 Gallente Dark Blood Contracts	Posted - 2006.09.03 20:48:00 - [22] guess it goes with the minmatar fighting style. Go in fast, hit hard, get out, not much room for defence. ----- Move along, nothign to see here...
Areconus	Posted - 2006.09.03 21:56:00 - [23] Originally by: RoMUF They give a % bonus to sig radius. Wich means the effect on small ship is tiny and effect on big ships (with already a big sig radius) is huge (the sig raising effect). Wouldn't it be better if it just adds like X meter sig radius or something? This would make small ships big and big ships a bit bigger. They could finally have the impact other EW has. Woahhhh now your not actually supposed to post good ideas!...but seriously that does sound pretty cool...make a small tp, med tp, and heavy tp, but make it so they dont use major amounts of cpu or grid, like a few hundred for the heavy so frigs and cruisers wont fit it

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