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Darksheer	Posted - 2003.10.16 23:17:00 - [1] Hi everyone there seems to be alot of problem with some people getting the concept of a war incorrect lets view the facts CA is At war with CFS this is pretty much set in stone yet when curse alliance members raid the rear areas of CFS killing and podding indy's/miners we get called pirates and puppy kickers for doing this can someone PLEASE show me where it says this is not a valid tactic and is classified as proof of us being pirates germans did it to britian in WW2 americans did it to Japan submarines on merchant ships both cases here is the dictonary definition WAR A state of open, armed, often prolonged conflict carried on between nations, states, or parties. The period of such conflict. The techniques and procedures of war; military science im not looking for flames or snappy comebacks im trying to bring some clarity to this place if thats possible IMHO when you are at war anything goes hunting indy's and miners is a valid tactic as it denies resources to the enemy and isnt the entire object of a war to kill your enemy till either there is no one left on the other side or the other side decides its had enough ? my 2 cents please leave your comments Darksheer Happy miner of the Curse alliance Member of the "Xirtam is The evil god of all that is unholy" fanclub Vice President of the Curse Alliance home for wayward girls Associate deputy minister of "Things that go boom after 2 minutes" founding member of the "Ooooh look shiney things" Club And finally Head admin of the "Oh no Poxie haxored our TS server lets complain to ccp" Hospital for Beaten Redheads
Jolo	Posted - 2003.10.16 23:25:00 - [2] I have to agree with you on this one. I hate pirates more than anything! But this is part of the game. We shouldn't have let you guys get past A2 in the first place. Pirates are pirates and war is war. No matter who gets killed. If you have 100 indies in 0.0 and you all get pk'd. Your own fault. Kudos to you guys. But dont think you'll not get yours. ---------------------------------------
Zraahd	Posted - 2003.10.16 23:36:00 - [3] Anyone that has been in the military can tell you that the rear eschalon of the military is who gets bombed the most. If you disrupt supply lines, warehousing of supplies, rear mobilization points, and rear command and control you win a lot faster. You will not have nearly as many forward front line fighting units against you if they have nothing to fight with. Example, take their miners out and you will ruin thier source of income to replace lost ships. Result, the battle groups you go against will be smaller and smaller at each engagement. The groups will have to replace the mining ships before mining can continue at the previous pace. Basic military strategy, that is all it is. If you are a miner in an alliance that is at war or not, never think you are safe mining or hauling. Make sure you are ready to run at a seconds notice. Otherwise your lack of prepairedness will be your downfall.........
Dark Intentions	Posted - 2003.10.16 23:41:00 - [4] It sounds like guerilla tactics to me. So long as they dont go around blowing up schools and hospitals, alls fair. "Dog look sad up at you" -Shep
Jash Illian	Posted - 2003.10.16 23:47:00 - [5] Edited by: Jash Illian on 16/10/2003 23:48:33 Darksheer: People think that every fight should be between equal forces at an agreed upon location at set times. I've yet to figure out where people get these inflated notions of 'honorable battle' in any game. Major objective in Homeworld series: Kill the miners. Major objective in Rise of Nations: Kill the villagers Major objective in C&C series: Kill the resource gatherers. No money? No resources? No army. And before someone says "Why pod the indy pilot after destroying his ship?" here's the answer: So he can't yammer on about what killed him to others. I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather *** my enemy.- Rohann Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!*- Lallante
Molly	Posted - 2003.10.17 00:26:00 - [6] War is peace. Peace is war. -- Kasha > Mastema, face the reality: All the juicy dots are gone. --
Drethen Nerevitas	Posted - 2003.10.17 00:37:00 - [7] "Major objective in Homeworld series: Kill the miners." [Insert: OR warp your entire fleet onto enemy mothership/carrier, OR use your salvage corvettes and stealth fields to steal a ridiculously large Navy, OR just do it the plain old fashioned way with a gradual buildup and advance] "Major objective in C&C series: Kill the resource gatherers." [Insert: OR overload their air defence capacity, OR create a massed army, OR create an iron curtain (of units, not the superweapon ) the enemy has no chance of taking out and use one of the other strategies, OR commando raid their specific production centres (No War Fac/ConYard=no more buildings/vehicles).] No money? No resources? No army. Jash, it's not the only way. It's one of the simplest, and easiest, but it's far from the only way . "And before someone says "Why pod the indy pilot after destroying his ship?" here's the answer: So he can't yammer on about what killed him to others." And if you're waging an economic war, then it costs them even more for new clones . Erm. Enough with me being picky for now . Personally, I think Curse has the right idea, but they need to split up more. Hunt down the miners, diffuse over a larger area so they can't have a big blockade broken all at once. I don't know they haven't been doing this, but last time I saw them they had to run from a CFS "liberation" (Translation: These stars aren't free anymore ) fleet. _______________________________________________________________________ *IMPORTANT: Devs (and players) please take notice.* 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. 7.
Bexxly	Posted - 2003.10.17 00:39:00 - [8] Quote: War is peace. Peace is war. deep
Plim	Posted - 2003.10.17 00:39:00 - [9] Quote: War is peace. Peace is war. Your double-think is double plus good Molly. -----------------
Morkt Drakt	Posted - 2003.10.17 00:46:00 - [10] Quote: Anyone that has been in the military can tell you that the rear eschalon of the military is who gets bombed the most. Only cause everybody hates REMFs.
Morkt Drakt	Posted - 2003.10.17 00:50:00 - [11] Major Objective in EVE: Kill them on the boards; if all else fails whine a lot, post a "Im leaving" message and then use an alt to aks for your stuff so it looks like somebody cares.
Drethen Nerevitas	Posted - 2003.10.17 00:56:00 - [12] Starbase A-118, Joking Fix region... Incoming Transmission... Source: Somewhere Out There. Security identifier 4-55D1-88C-WHINE. Decoding... Decoding... Transmission Decoded: Major Objective in EVE: Kill them on the boards; if all else fails whine a lot, post a "Im leaving" message and then use an alt to aks for your stuff so it looks like somebody cares. -------End Transmission------ Returning reply: Mission recieved and understood. Beginning preliminary operations. _______________________________________________________________________ *IMPORTANT: Devs (and players) please take notice.* 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. 7.
Rinekar	Posted - 2003.10.17 01:06:00 - [13] An army marches on its stomach. Or in this case, Have a fleet because of miners... Koensayr Drive Yards [KOEN] Website
Jash Illian	Posted - 2003.10.17 01:09:00 - [14] Quote: "Major objective in Homeworld series: Kill the miners." [Insert: OR warp your entire fleet onto enemy mothership/carrier, OR use your salvage corvettes and stealth fields to steal a ridiculously large Navy, OR just do it the plain old fashioned way with a gradual buildup and advance] "Major objective in C&C series: Kill the resource gatherers." [Insert: OR overload their air defence capacity, OR create a massed army, OR create an iron curtain (of units, not the superweapon ) the enemy has no chance of taking out and use one of the other strategies, OR commando raid their specific production centres (No War Fac/ConYard=no more buildings/vehicles).] No money? No resources? No army. Jash, it's not the only way. It's one of the simplest, and easiest, but it's far from the only way . Quote: Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. -Charles Mingus Quote: "And before someone says "Why pod the indy pilot after destroying his ship?" here's the answer: So he can't yammer on about what killed him to others." And if you're waging an economic war, then it costs them even more for new clones . Erm. Enough with me being picky for now . Clone cost is stupidly low. If that's an economic factor, then they're already in trouble I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather *** my enemy.- Rohann Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!*- Lallante
Karash Amerius	Posted - 2003.10.17 01:47:00 - [15] I agree...this strat seemed to work well against Sinc and crew in Outer Ring.
Morkt Drakt	Posted - 2003.10.17 01:57:00 - [16] Well my clones cost a million + mate.. its not huge but it aint peanuts either... add the cost of replacing 100mil of implants...(of lets say 30 if i go basics at current vlaues) personal i call that an economic factor.
Cattraknoff	Posted - 2003.10.17 02:03:00 - [17] Quote: Clone cost is stupidly low. If that's an economic factor, then they're already in trouble even if they are low, still another 1-2 mill they wont have
Kennian	Posted - 2003.10.17 02:10:00 - [18] people call you pirates because that's what you are... you idiots merrily pirateing in CFS territory is what started this insanity... trust me, your people shanghi'd my bestower and i was forced to self distruct so stop with the propoganda and go lose your little war so i can get back to mineing bis ]
The Reclaimer	Posted - 2003.10.17 02:24:00 - [19] Quote: people call you pirates because that's what you are... you idiots merrily pirateing in CFS territory is what started this insanity... trust me, your people shanghi'd my bestower and i was forced to self distruct so stop with the propoganda and go lose your little war so i can get back to mineing bis I guess the killing of our guys by your trigger happy wanna-be thugs was ok though.
Mallus Kulov	Posted - 2003.10.17 03:33:00 - [20] You slipped past their lines and sacked the industrials. Cut the legs off before the head.
Kashre	Posted - 2003.10.17 03:49:00 - [21] Quote: Quote: people call you pirates because that's what you are... you idiots merrily pirateing in CFS territory is what started this insanity... trust me, your people shanghi'd my bestower and i was forced to self distruct so stop with the propoganda and go lose your little war so i can get back to mineing bis I guess the killing of our guys by your trigger happy wanna-be thugs was ok though. Well, you WERE still on our KOS list at the time. Sounds like they did what they should have. You could have stayed out of JK-FIX and low sec KHanid systems alltogether, just like I always stayed out of Curse. +++ It's called "low security space" for a reason.
Tabius	Posted - 2003.10.17 03:59:00 - [22] Sorry to disagree guys, but you have it totally wrong... In war, everything is fair game.... including the war of propaganda. If they can denounce you as pirates, and turn public opinion against you, then that to is fair. And you get to complain about it... if you're complaining because you want to turn the propaganda tide in the other direction, that's fair. If you're complaining because you truly think it's unfair, then you are a hypocrite...
Darksheer	Posted - 2003.10.17 04:06:00 - [23] Edited by: Darksheer on 17/10/2003 04:09:31 ""people call you pirates because that's what you are... you idiots merrily pirateing in CFS territory is what started this insanity... trust me, your people shanghi'd my bestower and i was forced to self distruct so stop with the propoganda and go lose your little war so i can get back to mineing bis"" thanks for the replies seems alot of people do know what its all about and for the chimps that highjacked a interesting thread by chest thumping and name calling thank you as well you make youself looks silly and as previously stated thats all part of the public opinion war but honestly what does your reply have to do with this thread ? i ask a question about valid tactics in a war and you reply with this ? see you all in space Darksheer "insert humorous tidbit here"
Archemedes	Posted - 2003.10.17 10:53:00 - [24] Quote: Edited by: Darksheer on 17/10/2003 04:09:31 ""people call you pirates because that's what you are... you idiots merrily pirateing in CFS territory is what started this insanity... trust me, your people shanghi'd my bestower and i was forced to self distruct so stop with the propoganda and go lose your little war so i can get back to mineing bis"" thanks for the replies seems alot of people do know what its all about and for the chimps that highjacked a interesting thread by chest thumping and name calling thank you as well you make youself looks silly and as previously stated thats all part of the public opinion war but honestly what does your reply have to do with this thread ? i ask a question about valid tactics in a war and you reply with this ? see you all in space Darksheer "insert humorous tidbit here" Kennian is a corpmate of mine. Omnitrend is not now and has never BEEN a part of the CFS or any other alliance. We simply hunt and mine in CFS territory from time to time because of their open space policy. Since the list of CFS member corps is publicly available and such corps are clearly marked "CFS member" in their descriptions, the attack on Kennian's hauler was an act of piracy, not an act of war. It also (I believe) happened before the general war even broke out. In fact, from other threads it seems Kennian was attacked by Master Scy and another person, the very group of pirates the CFS was hunting when they had that run-in with the Red Corsairs (the event that STARTED the whole mess). So Kennian's point is that: 1) It was piracy by Curse-based ships that provoked the CFS and STARTED the war. 2) He was upset at the loss of a Bestower and a Miner 2. and... 3) For those of us who aren't in an alliance, the sooner the CA loses and CFS space is safe again the sooner we can go back to mining bis! As for your tactics, I agree that disrupting CFS mining and trade is a valuable tactic. However, shooting everyone in sight instead of only the CFS is going to make you more enemies... something I would think a group that is at war with FOUR alliances would not want! Oh, and the reason this is relevant to this thread is that you mentioned people were calling you pirates. So a victim of piracy came forward to assert that yes, YOU ARE PIRATES. Master Scy PIRATED Kennian's indy in CFS space before the war began, so if Master Scy IS in fact a member of the Curse Alliance then the claims that the CA are pirates seem pretty reasonable to me.
Raven DeBlade	Posted - 2003.10.17 11:15:00 - [25] War is between "Armed Forces" Not against "civilians" and unarmed people. "To hunt pirates you need time and patience, because even monkeys fall from the trees" "Any statements made above this line are my persona"
Torath	Posted - 2003.10.17 11:16:00 - [26] At the end of the day the only aim of war is to wipe your enemy out using whatever means. You want it I got it....erm unless I sold it, then some one else has it!?! :/
Darth Tom	Posted - 2003.10.17 11:25:00 - [27] Quote: At the end of the day the only aim of war is to wipe your enemy out using whatever means. Amen to that. Cheers, TOM
Severus Trajan	Posted - 2003.10.17 11:31:00 - [28] "The essence of war is violence, moderation in war is imbecility." -- Admiral of the Fleet Lord Fisher, Royal Navy
Ulendar	Posted - 2003.10.17 11:51:00 - [29] Quote: yet when curse alliance members raid the rear areas of CFS killing and podding indy's/miners we get called pirates and puppy kickers for doing this Well the problem here is that your mostly killing independants who basically have no connection with CFS and who are NOT supplying us with anything either. They are merely there because they like the protection or they have always been here. Ofcourse this does constitute that in fact you are merely podding/killing people who are completely nuetral to this war, who will not win nor lose you this war. There is little reason to do this. You are not hurting logistics by this. As i sayd...independant corps in khanid work for nobody but themselves! Another thing is CA adding these independants to their total confirmed kills against CFS. Will you now start adding kills from wherever in the universe and claiming they are CFS kills? In anycase. You are free to use your propaganda game to your advantage. It wont do didly. In the end CA will die and 'move along'. Nomatter what lies you spread now will be decimated when that time comes and in the next big war you fight your credibility will be zero. I can't believe that some people still take anything that the pirates of CA say after what happened in Venal. Ca has it easy. They can just go into CFS space and kill 'whoever', then add them all to confirmed kills of whoever it may be they are warring on at that time and convince themselves that the numbers are insanely in their favor. If CFS were to use the same tactics we would have to go into curse and kill everyone we meet, freelancers, CC, SA probably some FA. That would be very bad and would contradict everything CFS stand for. More then likely it would get us into war with just about everyone. But then the CA doesnt need to worry about starting even more ** because they already did so with just about everyone in the game. Don't worry though....this will turn around and bite you in the ass ;) Originally by:** cashman It's time for Eris to get a clue. CCP should make a statement about this. It's the exact same things as what Zombie did, you may not attack in "safe-areas" (empire/within sentry range) without loosing your ship.
Joshua Calvert	Posted - 2003.10.17 16:13:00 - [30] Quote: Edited by: Jash Illian on 16/10/2003 23:48:33 Darksheer: People think that every fight should be between equal forces at an agreed upon location at set times. I've yet to figure out where people get these inflated notions of 'honorable battle' in any game. Major objective in Homeworld series: Kill the miners. Major objective in Rise of Nations: Kill the villagers Major objective in C&C series: Kill the resource gatherers. No money? No resources? No army. And before someone says "Why pod the indy pilot after destroying his ship?" here's the answer: So he can't yammer on about what killed him to others. This would work if the indy pilot was blind, ignorant, and the pod didn't stay suspended in mid-space after being destroyed. Plenty of time to get info on the attacking ship. LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
Joshua Calvert	Posted - 2003.10.17 16:14:00 - [31] Quote: At the end of the day the only aim of war is to wipe your enemy out using whatever means. Even exploits? LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
Xander Teg	Posted - 2003.10.17 19:16:00 - [32] Quote: War is between "Armed Forces" Not against "civilians" and unarmed people. indies are unarmed. But the megacite in their cargo hold that is going to be used to build BSs for the opposing forces sure poses a problem. _________________ "For the strength of the Pack is the Wolf, and the strength of the Wolf is the Pack." -Rudyard Kipling
Bobby Wilson	Posted - 2003.10.17 20:36:00 - [33] Quote: Quote: War is between "Armed Forces" Not against "civilians" and unarmed people. ROFL. Name me a war like like that. Even "chivalrous" middle ages knights spent a good chunk of their time in war burning down people's houses, stealing their food and property ("foraging") and they would raid and butcher their enemies' supply lines whenever the opportunity arose. Maybe war shouldn't be like that, but without strong overpowering peace enforcement by a larger group, the most evil methods combined with the largest numbers often win. Think about how the Pacific portion of WWII ended... Forget about whether you agree with the choice, but there is a pretty recent example of doing the horrendous in order to win. And that was ALL about "civilians and unarmed people" BW Originally by: Selim Cool, congrats. Oh, stupid idea by the way.
Kennian	Posted - 2003.10.18 07:14:00 - [34] heh....the atom bombs werent as efil as you think Heroshima was the headquarters of the Japanese admerality and Nagasaki was a major port city, both VERY valuable military targets.. was better than the alternitive....if the japanese didnt surrender it would have led to the complete genocide of the japanese people. to add insult to injury, most of the civillian population were building guns for the military IN THEIR HOMES, because the Airforce was less likely to bomb a civillian center. this is what led to the firebombing of tokyo... the japanese were anything but innocent ]
Drethen Nerevitas	Posted - 2003.10.18 09:18:00 - [35] Edited by: Drethen Nerevitas on 18/10/2003 09:19:06 Quote: This would work if the indy pilot was blind, ignorant, and the pod didn't stay suspended in mid-space after being destroyed. Plenty of time to get info on the attacking ship. I think he means to other people who enter the system. Scenario: Indy: OMG!!!!oneone1! I'm about to be aaaaggghhh Pirate: Oooh. Nice expanders. Indy: pod warps Indy 2: Hi Indy. Indy: Look out he's a pirate! Indy 2: Crap! Indy 2: escapes Kennian couldn't have been the indy that started the war. Scy and I have no CFS contacts at all . _______________________________________________________________________ *IMPORTANT: Devs (and players) please take notice.* 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. 7.

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