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Stoping corp theft and IPO scamming - IDEA

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Block Ukx	Posted - 2006.09.06 14:07:00 - [1] I have a few suggestions that might help end corp theft and IPO scamming and require very small changes. (1) CEO has no voting rights (2) All money earned by the CEO goes directly to the corporation wallet and is not transferable (3) CEO is the only one authorized to submit purchase/sell orders for the company (4) All items purchased by the CEO are tagged as company assets and can only be used by the company (5) Company assets can only be sold by the CEO (6) Available list of Company assets and Shareholders. This way the money resides in the company. The only way to distribute money out of the corp wallet is by paying dividends. What do you guys think?
Dr Slurm	Posted - 2006.09.06 17:53:00 - [2] Quote: (3) CEO is the only one authorized to submit purchase/sell orders for the company That's pretty easy to abuse. 1) Buy high ticket item 2) Sell to an alt at cut prices 3) Alt sells item (Possibly back to the CEO) None of these ideas are really going to help corp theft or IPO scams. It's just going to make it harder for real corps to operate. Especially under those conditions. Like what if the CEO is the only one in the corp, what then? Contracts will help alleviate some problems, but not all. The rest needs to be taken care of in a cultural way. Unfortunately the culture of EVE now is to scam and now it is globally known for it. Click above to find out more
Martosh Toma Gallente Fraction Investment	Posted - 2006.09.06 20:17:00 - [3] I was formulating a coherant answer point by point but I think i have this one in short for you. Your suggestions would cripple most corporation, and you want this introduced because you are to lazy to make your own isk or make sure you can actually trust the corp in question. You have serious issues dealing with reality: If you think a CEO should not benefit from is own work, and instead only have the rights of a owned slave. If you think CEO's should have no personal property If A corporation can exsist on the availeble sell and buy orders from any single indevidual If a vote is needed for something as small as a 100M buy order If you think this will sa***uard your investment If you think anyone is intrested in having your isk to work with under these rediculous restrictions.
Marodi Alivar	Posted - 2006.09.06 20:23:00 - [4] How about if they steal more than 5 billion in isk and/or items, all their accounts get banned. It would be easy to do since i'm sure ccp has accesslogs of what accounts from what IP addresses logged in. Would just be a quick look through using ctrl+F (insert ip address here) and that could do something. But as stated... ccp obviously dosent want to do bubkis about a system that would enhance eve. I guess that's devs for ya. True in any game.
Martosh Toma Gallente Fraction Investment	Posted - 2006.09.06 20:37:00 - [5] How about you realize that theft and destruction of property is part of this game Banning such accounds is complete and utter BattleShip A reported theft should perhaps lead to a loss in sec status for the involved character (and not the alt's or other accounts of that player), as stealing a ship is actually more of a loss to the player than a ships destruction is. Removing theft, piracy and such from this game would not be an enhancement. It would be a loss What would remain would not even be a silly market simulation, as nobody will buy anything anymore. So CCP does care, They just do not care about your easy isk for doing absolutely nothing. That said, some enhancements are needed, as the current availeble share's are in essence nothing more than a (junk)bond certificate.
Archo X Caldari	Posted - 2006.09.06 20:49:00 - [6] Originally by: Marodi Alivar How about if they steal more than 5 billion in isk and/or items, all their accounts get banned. It would be easy to do since i'm sure ccp has accesslogs of what accounts from what IP addresses logged in. Would just be a quick look through using ctrl+F (insert ip address here) and that could do something. But as stated... ccp obviously dosent want to do bubkis about a system that would enhance eve. I guess that's devs for ya. True in any game. In-game scams are not bannable offenses. Devs have said that before. If I said "send me 100m and I'll send you 150m" would you? If yes, you are dumb and I have 100m isk for very little work. However maybe I would give you 150m back, maybe if yes sent me a billion isk I'd send you 2 billion back. It's all risk v. reward. Some seem less risky that others. I am not saying stocks are bad and scams are good. I currently have 100m invested. At my high point I had 1.4b invested. I think scammers are scum. I also think banning somebody for it is wrong. They did not steal. People gave the isk in hopes of a return. Investors were wrong. It sucks, but it's true. If you can't deal with the loss then you should not have invested. Same for flying the Gist X-Type Rattlesnake. If it pops you're out billions. As for devs putting something in to stop this... I'd much rather have them fix bugs, or for god's sake tell me who killed the emporer before the put something like this in. Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes, ty - Cortes I got h4xXx0rzed!!!!11!!on3!!!111!1el3ventEEn!!!11 N3RF teh modz!!!
Sirana Telor	Posted - 2006.09.06 20:58:00 - [7] Much too restrictive. First it would hurt corps more then it helps, especially since it restricts other corp members from doing business. Second, who would want to be a CEO with these rules? I know I wouldn't. Now if CCP gives the option of having Corps voluntarily restrict certain freedoms, that is an option. But not having any private property at all like this just forces the use of alts as CEO which is not really the point and I think goes more against the grain of what should be done then for it.
Block Ukx	Posted - 2006.09.07 11:27:00 - [8] Thanks for all your comments. Here is a modified list of suggestions to address the issues pointed out by some of you. This rules will only applied to ôInvestment Corporation,ö see (9). (1) CEO has no voting rights (2) All money earned by the CEO (except for dividends) goes directly to the corporation wallet and is not transferable (3) CEO is the only one authorized to submit purchase/sell orders for the company (4) All items purchased by the CEO are tagged as company assets and can only be used by any member of the company (5) Company assets can only be sold by the CEO (6) Available list of Company assets and Shareholders. (7) CEOÆs Purchase Orders are limited to no more than +10% asset value. (8) CEOÆs Sell Orders are limited to no less than -10% asset value. (9) Be able to declare corp as an ôInvestment Corporationö during creation. Dr Slum: CanÆt be done. See (7) and (8). Martosh Thoma: Corporation wonÆt be crippled; see (4), anything the corp owns can be used its members. CEO can own shares, so he benefits from dividends. Plus CEO has access to everything the corp owns. Sirana Telor: These rules are intended for Investment Corporations, see (9).
Erfnam Time Cube Syndicate Daikoku Trade Syndicate	Posted - 2006.09.07 11:35:00 - [9] These changes would require all industrial corporations to have an alt for a CEO. Casino - [TCCS]
Vatim Solaris Federation	Posted - 2006.09.07 12:59:00 - [10] As to repeat what many others have stated, until the proper controls are put into place by CCP, the Eve Stock Market can not and will not function as it ought to. Even some of the most trusted members have succumb to deceit and manipulation. Kudos to those that are attempting to stimulate positive change in the system. It will be interesting to see what radical changes, if any will come out of all of this. It is a sad and dark period for the Market. Vatim, Solaris Federation, CFO "Make it happen" Solaris Federation, CFO

Veleena Amarr Eve Intergalactic Bank Investments	Posted - 2006.09.07 14:12:00 - [11] CCP doesnt need to change anything. We have all the tools that are needed to prevent IPO scams its just you aint figured out how to do it yet because you want CCP to hold your hand. Just invest in something that has the right sa*uards or take the risk. You know the risks so if you get ** over then do your rip. At the moment there is nothing on the market to invest in that has the sauards to prevent an IPO scam. All the current public investment options are based on trust alone. There is a template I have developed and tested that can be implemented into an IPO to ensure a 90% scam proof investment. Yes thats right 90% scam proof* and this is an absolute worse case scenario with slacking security checks and incompetent accountants. Business failure is another thing but that depends on the ability of those running it and this can of course be prevented before it happens since the whole operation is completely transparent. But who in their right mind would trust me right?
Wilfan Ret'nub Singularity.	Posted - 2006.09.07 14:48:00 - [12] Originally by: Block Ukx Thanks for all your comments. Here is a modified list of suggestions to address the issues pointed out by some of you. Escrow? Contracts? Direct market buying/selling? Direct trade? Loading a hauler with stuff and jettisoning it? Getting the said hauler blown up and looted (not as effective as other options, but still...)? How will you calculate the asset value (mineral price is useless)? How can a corp buy a freighter without having >10 bil in "assets"? Asset limit is useless anyway. It just means the CEO must do more transactions to raid the corp. ------ No ISK, no fun
Block Ukx	Posted - 2006.09.07 15:00:00 - [13] Wilfan Ret'nub: Escrow? Contracts? Direct market buying/selling? Direct trade? >> See (2) Loading a hauler with stuff and jettisoning it? Getting the said hauler blown up and looted (not as effective as other options, but still...)? >> See(4) Even if you steal it How will you calculate the asset value (mineral price is useless)? >> Item database Asset limit is useless anyway. It just means the CEO must do more transactions to raid the corp. >> See (2)
Vatim Solaris Federation	Posted - 2006.09.07 15:17:00 - [14] Originally by: Veleena CCP doesnt need to change anything. We have all the tools that are needed to prevent IPO scams its just you aint figured out how to do it yet because you want CCP to hold your hand. Just invest in something that has the right sa*uards or take the risk. You know the risks so if you get ** over then do your rip. At the moment there is nothing on the market to invest in that has the sauards to prevent an IPO scam. All the current public investment options are based on trust alone. There is a template I have developed and tested that can be implemented into an IPO to ensure a 90% scam proof investment. Yes thats right 90% scam proof* and this is an absolute worse case scenario with slacking security checks and incompetent accountants. Business failure is another thing but that depends on the ability of those running it and this can of course be prevented before it happens since the whole operation is completely transparent. But who in their right mind would trust me right? Veleena, Did someone wake up on the wrong side of the system? My post had nothing to do with CCP "holding anyones hand". Reread my post, let it sink and then respond. This approach will ensure your response doesn't come across as 'shooting from the hip' mmkay. Also, check your grammer... "just you aint figured out how to do it yet because...." ain't? Solaris Federation, CFO
FireFoxx80 Caldari E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2006.09.07 16:09:00 - [15] No matter how many systems you introduce, human stupidity will always overcome it. What I do the rest of the time - Vote for a Jita bypass!
Pang Grohl Gallente	Posted - 2006.09.07 16:40:00 - [16] Originally by: Veleena CCP doesnt need to change anything. We have all the tools that are needed to prevent IPO scams its just you aint figured out how to do it yet because you want CCP to hold your hand. Just invest in something that has the right sa*uards or take the risk. You know the risks so if you get ** over then do your rip. At the moment there is nothing on the market to invest in that has the sauards to prevent an IPO scam. All the current public investment options are based on trust alone. There is a template I have developed and tested that can be implemented into an IPO to ensure a 90% scam proof investment. Yes thats right 90% scam proof* and this is an absolute worse case scenario with slacking security checks and incompetent accountants. Business failure is another thing but that depends on the ability of those running it and this can of course be prevented before it happens since the whole operation is completely transparent. But who in their right mind would trust me right? Unless your template includes a board of directors comprised of trustworthy individuals who can override the CEO it isn't going to protect from corp thefts or executive embezzlment (which now seem to fall under the umbrella of "scam"). Regardless, I find your claim of 90% to be hyperbolic. Maybe you can name the 9 other scams that failed under your template. Si non adjuvas, noces (If you're not helping, you're hurting)
Vatim Solaris Federation	Posted - 2006.09.07 17:20:00 - [17] Well stated Pang! I sometimes think selective memory runs rampant with some of our Eve peers. Nice to see that isn't the case with you. Thanks for the reminder that rigorous market protocols need to be established in order for the stock market to be truly effective and considered a valuable asset to Eve. Vatim Solaris Federation, CFO
Wilfan Ret'nub Singularity.	Posted - 2006.09.07 18:35:00 - [18] First, let's clarify rule 2. What are earnings? All positive cash inflows for the corp? What does it means, "non-transferable"? Can it be used for corp purchases? Originally by: Block Ukx Escrow? Contracts? Direct market buying/selling? Direct trade? >> See (2) Can CEO still make them? If so, are they limited by rules 7 and 8? Originally by: Block Ukx Loading a hauler with stuff and jettisoning it? Getting the said hauler blown up and looted (not as effective as other options, but still...)? >> See(4) Even if you steal it Excellent. You've just make company invulnerable from pirates that kill for loot. Carebears rejoice. Also, CEO can still refine T1 assets to get rid of the "company mark". Or will you put the mark on anything that's touched by the corp? Originally by: Block Ukx How will you calculate the asset value (mineral price is useless)? >> Item database So corp trades in T2 gear and 50-90% value just vanishes when they buy assets. And magically reappears when goods get sold. Not to mention Rattlesnake where 1.5-2 bil just vanish into thin air under your accounting rules. Perfect for avoiding rules 7 and 8. Originally by: Block Ukx Asset limit is useless anyway. It just means the CEO must do more transactions to raid the corp. >> See (2) Are you really serious that CEO can't touch corp wallet AT ALL? ------ No ISK, no fun
Wilfan Ret'nub Singularity.	Posted - 2006.09.07 18:37:00 - [19] In the end, all people who think they can prevent scams by a game mechanic should think about this: the only difference between a failed business and a scam is who's on the other side of the transactions. ------ No ISK, no fun
Vatim Gallente Solaris Federation	Posted - 2006.09.07 18:48:00 - [20] Edited by: Vatim on 07/09/2006 18:54:03 Edited by: Vatim on 07/09/2006 18:53:01 Indeed Wilfan. No one member or corp. can prevent a scam, however it's all about putting in place effective measures to MINIMIZE corp. scams and hold accountability to those that are in a position to make decision and actions that will affect the whole, aka the investors. Vatim Solaris Federation, CFO "Make it happen"

Wilfan Ret'nub Singularity.	Posted - 2006.09.07 20:14:00 - [21] Problem is, suggested measures are about as effective as software copy protection: they make life much harder for honest people, yet make it only marginaly harder for crooks. ------ No ISK, no fun
Vatim Gallente Solaris Federation	Posted - 2006.09.07 20:25:00 - [22] So where does that leave us? With a broken system that others will use to prey upon even the most cautious investor? (reference - recent PRIG scam). Perhaps it's all a lost cause? Perhaps a revolutionary way of conducting investment transactions will spring forth? Who knows... I'm just enjoying the ride and the drama of it all and when the dust settles we shall see who's still standing. Vatim Solaris Federation, CFO "Make it happen"
Block Ukx	Posted - 2006.09.08 11:02:00 - [23] Wilfan, I really appreciate your insight. I hope you find the new suggestions reasonable. First of all, this rules only apply to ôInvestment Corporationö Originally by: Wilfan Ret'nub First, let's clarify rule 2. What are earnings? All positive cash inflows for the corp? What does it means, "non-transferable"? I clarified rule (2) All money earned by the CEO (except for dividends) goes directly to the corporation wallet. Money in the corporation wallet is not transferable to anyone. Originally by: Wilfan Ret'nub Can it be used for corp purchases? Yes, I clarified rule (3) CEO is the only one authorized to submit purchase/sell orders for the company using the corporation wallet. Escrow? Contracts? Direct market buying/selling? Direct trade? Are all govern by rules 7, 8 and new rule 10. Originally by: Wilfan Ret'nub Excellent. You've just make company invulnerable from pirates that kill for loot. Carebears rejoice. Point taken. I modified rule (4) All items purchased by the CEO are tagged as company assets and can only be used by any member of the company. In the case of lost, up to 10% of corporation net asset value will loose the corporation tag. Originally by: Wilfan Ret'nub Also, CEO can still refine T1 assets to get rid of the "company mark". Or will you put the mark on anything that's touched by the corp? Yes, CEO can refine and loose the tag. But refining assets will be considered a lost for the company. Be aware of new rule (10). In the event the net asset value drops by 20% in a 5-day period, the corporation will be mark as ôBankruptö and all assets will be lock and marked for liquidation. Originally by: Wilfan Ret'nub So corp trades in T2 gear and 50-90% value just vanishes when they buy assets. And magically reappears when goods get sold. Not to mention Rattlesnake where 1.5-2 bil just vanish into thin air under your accounting rules. Perfect for avoiding rules 7 and 8. Rule (7), (8), and (10) still apply to this situation.
Block Ukx	Posted - 2006.09.08 11:06:00 - [24] Originally by: Wilfan Ret'nub Problem is, suggested measures are about as effective as software copy protection: they make life much harder for honest people, yet make it only marginaly harder for crooks. CEOÆs can choose between a ôClassicalö corporation and an ôInvestment Corporationö
Martosh Toma Gallente Fraction Investment	Posted - 2006.09.10 10:38:00 - [25] Edited by: Martosh Toma on 10/09/2006 10:40:18 Originally by: Block Ukx Martosh Thoma: Corporation wonÆt be crippled; see (4), anything the corp owns can be used its members. CEO can own shares, so he benefits from dividends. Plus CEO has access to everything the corp owns. Well we have more open buy and sell orders than can be maintained by 1 person, and we are a tiny production corp Seccondly, You want to tag each and every trit to be corporate owned? how about ammo? fuel? trade goods?
Block Ukx	Posted - 2006.09.11 18:23:00 - [26] Martosh, No need to tag minerals, ammo, fuel, or trade goods. This could me considered as a loss for the company, but you better watch out (10).


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