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Flesh Eater
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Posted - 2006.09.07 08:45:00 -
[1]
Compare the stats of a Rook (tech II recon cruiser) to those of a Scorpion (ECM BS). http://essdb.milair.net/
Considering Scorpions go for around 70mil, and Rooks range from 70 -100mil, why would anyone ever bother to buy a Rook??? While you get a better ecm strength bonus on the Rook, its stats are pitiful when compared to the Scorpion. Even without the extra bonus, the Scorpion is much more effective at jamming since its actually possible to armour tank and fit more jammers, while the Rook's pitiful armour and 2 low slots mean you have to shield tank if you want to survive...
It seems to me that the "base price" listed in the eve item database is a much more reasonable price for the Rook (15mil), if you consider its usefullness compared to the Scorpion's price of 70mil. I know that the price of the Rook is determined by the market, supply vs demand etc etc, but the Developers are obviously able to manipulate this market by changing build requirements / number of blueprints in the game etc. Ive put a lot of time training for the Rook, since I've wanted to specialise in ECM, but now that I'm only a few days from being able to fly one, I'm thinking that I'd be much better off to keep buying cheaper/more readily available Scorpions - a better ship that can also be insured for its full value.
It's a bit dissapointing that training for so long seems a bit of a waste.
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Dethis
Caldari The Graduates
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Posted - 2006.09.07 08:48:00 -
[2]
I think your missing the point of recons tbh -------- Kill em all and let god sort em out
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LWMaverick
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Posted - 2006.09.07 08:50:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Dethis I think your missing the point of recons tbh
^^
<3 |
Flesh Eater
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Posted - 2006.09.07 08:58:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Dethis I think your missing the point of recons tbh
Why, what can the Rook do that the Scorp can't do better for a cheaper price? Target faster?? Well you have extra mids on the scorp so you could potentially fit multiple sensor boosters... Warp out faster? The extra dmg you can tank in the Scorp means you don't have to leave as fast and anyway...
Sure recons have a point....but imo should be to be able to do what they do at a fraction of the cost of a BS, but be more expensive than regular cruisers. In fact being cheap should be their point, otherwise they really have none.
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Perry
Amarr The X-Trading Company Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.09.07 09:00:00 -
[5]
Its the trade off for having (soon) the three best and most specialised Battleships ingame.
See Caldari have this super ECM BS the Scorpion, which cant be possible made better anymore. Then they have the Blackbird, which is used to build ther Recon Line with ECM as primary specialisation. And since Scorp is allready the pinnacle of ECM, Rook looses appeal.
Same as Cerb vs Raven or Eagle vs Rohk. Best BS in Role, cant built better Cruiser, really.
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Atreides Ghanima
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Posted - 2006.09.07 09:09:00 -
[6]
With the Rook you have a 10% bonus to ECM target jammer strength. And the Scorpions has only a 5% bonus to ECM target jammer strength.
And IMO that 10% of a Rook is worth it.
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Zylatis
AUS Corporation CORE.
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Posted - 2006.09.07 09:42:00 -
[7]
you said that the rook sucks because you cant tank it, im yet to see someone in a tanked rook or fly one myself. I sit 100km away with a full rack of jammers and some sensor boosters and if it gets hairy i get out. also, being a cruiser, its smaller and faster and hardner to hit and aligns faster, takes longer to lock onto so you cant get jammed yourself as fast and makes ppl crap their pants when they see tech 2 cruisers popping up, not to mention the rook actually has a reasonable damage output.
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Ortu Konsinni
KIA Corp
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Posted - 2006.09.07 09:43:00 -
[8]
If you don't like the Rook, you could always fly a Falcon. The Falcon is undeniably worth the training time and price. --- High quality pics of ALL EVE ships!
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Kilpelainen
FinFleet Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.09.07 10:30:00 -
[9]
With rook you can join cruiser gangs.
*Member of the John Sheridan look-a-like club |
Flesh Eater
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Posted - 2006.09.07 11:03:00 -
[10]
YES THE ROOK IS A GOOD SHIP...
but only an idiot would use one when a Scorpion would do a better job for much less money.
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Atreides Ghanima
Bull Industries
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Posted - 2006.09.07 11:20:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Flesh Eater but only an idiot would use one when a Scorpion would do a better job for much less money.
The Rook does the job far better with a 10% bonus to ECM target jammer strength. And yes, thats why the Rook is about 100 mil ISK.
----- The spice must flow!!! |
welsh wizard
Celestial Apocalypse
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Posted - 2006.09.07 11:23:00 -
[12]
It's a massively powerful cruiser sized jamming platform.
The bit in bold is the important bit. Sometimes battleships just aren't suitable, simple as that..
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Atreides Ghanima
Bull Industries
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Posted - 2006.09.07 11:27:00 -
[13]
Originally by: welsh wizard It's a massively powerful cruiser sized jamming platform.
Smaller size, higher agility and speed.
----- The spice must flow!!! |
Ortu Konsinni
KIA Corp
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Posted - 2006.09.07 11:32:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Flesh Eater YES THE ROOK IS A GOOD SHIP...
but only an idiot would use one when a Scorpion would do a better job for much less money.
Have you been reading other people's posts or even the ships' stats? Yes, the Scorpion has more hitpoints. No, the Scorpion is NOT better at jamming than the Rook. Because the Rook has that 10% ECM strength bonus as opposed to the Scorpion's 5% bonus, y'know. That's all there is to it.
If you don't wanna fly a Rook, fine, don't, but you have to accept the fact that the Rook is better than the Scorpion at the job, because it's undeniable and not debatable. And stop calling people idiots if they prefer flying a Rook. --- High quality pics of ALL EVE ships!
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FFGR
Euphoria Released Euphoria Unleashed
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Posted - 2006.09.07 11:56:00 -
[15]
For the same reason that players fly the Zealot instead of the Geddon, or Deimos instead of Blasterthron, or Ishtar instead of Dominix, or Sacrilege instead of Apoc, or Vagabond instead of Nanophoon ...
Get my point ? _____________________________
siggys v. 0.5 |
Flesh Eater
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Posted - 2006.09.07 12:09:00 -
[16]
Originally by: FFGR For the same reason that players fly the Zealot instead of the Geddon, or Deimos instead of Blasterthron, or Ishtar instead of Dominix, or Sacrilege instead of Apoc, or Vagabond instead of Nanophoon ...
Get my point ?
Im pretty sure they are flown becuase people want to try new "cool" things...
FOR THE MONEY they are not worth it.
And BTW the scorp is probably better at jamming because it has more slots, and you can stay in battle longer and thus have more jamming attempts.
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Kharriga
Caldari The ARR0W Project
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Posted - 2006.09.07 12:30:00 -
[17]
its not all about the size its how you use it! err.. no wait..
rook is smaller, more agile, locks faster, gets locked slower, has more strenght, warps faster(?), fits perfectly into cruiser-freg gangs ( well everyone wants at least one of those in! )
all in all it has alot of good tactical strenghts above scorpion
Then again no reason to write this because people already did but you just dont care to read it?
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Laythun
Euphoria Released Euphoria Unleashed
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Posted - 2006.09.07 12:38:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Flesh Eater
Originally by: FFGR For the same reason that players fly the Zealot instead of the Geddon, or Deimos instead of Blasterthron, or Ishtar instead of Dominix, or Sacrilege instead of Apoc, or Vagabond instead of Nanophoon ...
Get my point ?
Im pretty sure they are flown becuase people want to try new "cool" things...
FOR THE MONEY they are not worth it.
And BTW the scorp is probably better at jamming because it has more slots, and you can stay in battle longer and thus have more jamming attempts.
Ok everyone time to go home, what we have here is a bonafide idiot, who doesnt read posts and beleives he is right and wont entertain the fact that he is wrong.
FOR THE MONEY THEY ARE WORTH IT. its not a 'cool' new thing.
Firstly jamming attemps are worthless if you get jammed yourself cos a rook can target faster, it also jams MORE SUCCESSFULLY.
Peolpe fly cruiser sized t2 hips because they are faster, more agile, etc etc etc. I mean do i HAVE to repeat EVERYTHING that the other posters have said for you to understand??
ROOK JAMMING > SCORPION JAMMING end of. with that in mind ROOK > SCORPION. the cost is immaterial when you apply all the positives and negatives. 9/10 the scorp WILL die in battle. the ROOK has the speed, agility jamming capabilities to leave as and when.
Jebus get a clue.
See You In Space Cowboy |
Chewan Mesa
Beagle Corp
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Posted - 2006.09.07 12:44:00 -
[19]
Laythun's right.
The Rook's Ship-Bonus to jamming applied to all midslots has a better jamming strength than the scorps 8 mids. Thats a fact. Proven.
As some people also said, a Rook is faster, aligns quicker, is less a primary in BS-Fleets.
Sure it has the disadvantage of being more expensive, not being insurable, not having a slightest tank etc.
But each of em is better in certain situations.
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Hithero Wolf
Caldari Rampage Eternal
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Posted - 2006.09.07 13:03:00 -
[20]
About the scorps more slots...Yes, it does have one more midslot for jamming. However, With a rook and a sig amp in one of the low slots combined with racial jammers you easily jam at 175km. For the scorp to get that kind of targeting range you need two sensor bosters thus reduceing the number of slots on scorp for jamming to 6.. At this point, the rook has 7 jammers and teh scorp only 6.
Why racial? Well...with the rook 10% bonus the "weak" jamming off a racial on a rook is close to that of a multi on a scorp.
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Sunetra
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Posted - 2006.09.07 13:16:00 -
[21]
I like flying Rooks, they cost 70 mill, roughly the same as a scorp. They have T2 Resists and a small sig radius, with a mighty lock range. In standard layouts a Scorp will probably have 6 jammers to a Rooks 5, but the extra strength of a Rook's ECM makes up for that. It also has a higher sensor strength than a Scorp making it harder to jam, base 32 vs 24 thats a healthy diffrence.
On top of all that I dont need Caldari BS V to jamm at 180km, I can do that in the Rook with my Caldari Cruiser V.
After insurance they're about 50 mill more exspensive than Scorps, thats nothing really. The benifits you gain are significant enough to make it worthwhile.
Sunetra.
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Waxau
Liberty Rogues Tactical Narcotics Team
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Posted - 2006.09.07 13:35:00 -
[22]
....what a nubcake you are flesh eh..
And its rather pointless you saying about the price. The price is that high due to its demand, due to its usefulness. If no one thought it was good, then no one would buy it. Hence the price would be lower.
Keep training for a rook. Then when you realise how stupid this topic is, then post back - if ya actually read this.
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Lord WarATron
Amarr Out Siders Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.09.07 13:48:00 -
[23]
The rook is the only ship I know of that has a pretty much 100% jam chance of most frigs/cruisers/hacs. Nuff said --- Slot 10 Akemons Modified 'Noble'Zet 5000 implant +8% Armour FREE |
Flesh Eater
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Posted - 2006.09.07 14:21:00 -
[24]
Hmm some interesting points have been raised...anyway I'll buy one and try it out.
Im still not convinced it will be as good as a scorp in small scale battles.
ANd about the price, as I said, it may well be determined by demand, but also supply, which could easily be changed by adding more BPOs...Rook looks like I good ship but from its stats I reckon its price should be half-way between a BS and a cruiser.
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LoKesh
Amarr InQuest Ascension Vertigo Coalition
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Posted - 2006.09.07 14:25:00 -
[25]
Just to throw some numbers out there (using my skills) -
Scorp - 75 million Rook - 70-100 million on average, but I got one for 75 without much trouble.
Damage output - full racks of tech2 launchers with tech1 ammo, no damage mods
Scorp - ~130 dps Rook - ~150 dps
Add two BCUs to the Rook (which I don't fit on the scorp in favor of tank) and it soars to ~195 dps.
Locking times - scorp with sensor booster t2 and signal amp t2 versus Rook with nothing.
Scorp locks rook in ~10 seconds Rook locks scorp in ~4.5 seconds
Locking the same target - BS Scorp locks in 8.5 seconds Scorp with no boosters locks in ~15 seconds Rook locks in 4.5 seconds
Target Range No boosters -
Scorp - ~115 km Rook - ~180 km
Sensor strength -
Scorp - 24 Rook - 32
ECM effectiveness (Scorp vs Rook) - one racial
Scorp vs Rook - 28% Rook vs Scorp - 47%
ECM effectiveness (Scorp or Rook vs Apoc) - one racial
Scorp vs Apoc - 45% Rook vs Apoc - 56%
Yes, the Rook is more fragile - but it locks faster (very key in EW), has a high sensor strength, great resists, more damage and a better chance to jam. In my experience I've come to believe that if an EW ship goes into combat and fails to neutralize the enemies ability to deal damage, it dies - no matter what the tank. ECM is your tank. Rook 4tw.
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Chewan Mesa
Beagle Corp
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Posted - 2006.09.07 14:26:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Flesh Eater Hmm some interesting points have been raised...anyway I'll buy one and try it out.
Im still not convinced it will be as good as a scorp in small scale battles.
ANd about the price, as I said, it may well be determined by demand, but also supply, which could easily be changed by adding more BPOs...Rook looks like I good ship but from its stats I reckon its price should be half-way between a BS and a cruiser.
Try it out, then you'll be convinced.
About the price, the price is not so easily brought down to "stats" like Armor HP and Lowslots...its a lot more about the ship that makes it expensive.
Btw the price IS about 60-70mil, so its not like totally overpriced, and tech II isnt for everyone, hence the supply shouldnt be too great.
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Laythun
Euphoria Released Euphoria Unleashed
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Posted - 2006.09.07 14:32:00 -
[27]
rook for smale scale
scorp for fleet
(you dont want your rook instapopped by a fleet)
See You In Space Cowboy |
Xendie
Hunter Killers
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Posted - 2006.09.07 14:36:00 -
[28]
i managed to jam a nighthawk from 189k away with a ladar jammer repetedly in my rook.
rook/falcon is so much more fun then a scorp
Quote: Nertzius > having fun being incompetitent?
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Evil Sulu
Sanguine Legion Pirate Coalition
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Posted - 2006.09.07 14:48:00 -
[29]
The rook is amazing and would be worth it at twice its current price, thb. -------------
Public channel #KhanidBlood |
Chewan Mesa
Beagle Corp
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Posted - 2006.09.07 16:13:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Chewan Mesa on 07/09/2006 16:13:11
Originally by: Evil Sulu The rook is amazing and would be worth it at twice its current price, thb.
If the prices go up now Ill be pi$$ed.
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