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Fix the Hulk(ageddon)

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Gabriel Elarik Celestiel Rams 1	Posted - 2014.12.31 16:00:45 - [31] - Quote or some guys dont bother with flying exumers in empire out of fear to lose a ship agains a ganking squad the result low demand
Tyberius Franklin Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 1355	Posted - 2014.12.31 22:46:54 - [32] - Quote Gabriel Elarik wrote: in my eyes there is no difference between the ability to chose a ship with more tank or a ship with the ability to mine ice better This would be relevant in an appreciable manner if the old barges/exhumers only had a resource preference. The current set of ships allows for the extremes of tank yield or hold to be applied to gathering any resource equally. The old barges did not.
Gabriel Elarik Celestiel Rams 1	Posted - 2015.01.01 04:19:44 - [33] - Quote as i statet above i see no difference between the ability to chose a ship with more tank or a ship with the ability to mine ice better in my eyes its more logical to use a specialized ship for the job and fit it for your play style the only thing that needet change would be the tanking ability
Tyberius Franklin Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 1356	Posted - 2015.01.01 04:53:19 - [34] - Quote Gabriel Elarik wrote: as i statet above i see no difference between the ability to chose a ship with more tank or a ship with the ability to mine ice better in my eyes its more logical to use a specialized ship for the job and fit it for your play style the only thing that needet change would be the tanking ability Actually the hold and tanking would need to change as the hulk was able to significantly exceed both of the other exhumers in that capacity. If it didn't and you cared about either of those the hulk was still the right choice for just about anything as it's yield was less but still competent compared to the other alternatives. You could add the same fitting capacities to the others, but at that point you have an ice hulk, a ore hulk and a merc hulk, which is less interesting than either the old or new barges.
Reaver Glitterstim Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore 2155	Posted - 2015.01.01 04:55:34 - [35] - Quote So you're saying that CCP gave us too much control over our mining experience, and that they should go back to the way it used to be, when the resource you were mining determined the cost and hit points of your ship, and one of the barges was completely useless, even for newbs? Fit a warfare link to your tech 1 battlecruiser. Train Wing Commander. Get in the Squad Commander or Wing Commander position. Your fleets will be superior to everyone else's. (had this sig BEFORE Odyssey BC rebalance) "What if [climate change is] a big hoax and we create a better world for nothing?" -comic on Greenmonk
PJRiddick CherryHill 6	Posted - 2015.03.24 13:01:32 - [36] - Quote Dear CCP, it has been a while since ive writen to you in forums but im going to give it one last try to get you all to see where you have gone wrong and the errors of your ways. Myself i am a hulk pilot,...I spent a lot of time getting there, going thru al the smaller ships and finally getting to the point that the hulk was the pentacle of my existence, and now, you want to take that away. THE SKIFF,....SERIOUSLY?,...have you guys been sniffing the burned shellac off the components of your computers again? Heres my take on things,...If you want to make the hulk with its cargo nurfed, im ok with that, I orca mine anyway, The MAC, well its has its place but with al the nurfs you all have done to it, you might as well go set it out in the belt and feed it to the rats. The SKIFF,....for some reason i just cant wrap my head around this,..... Just buff the tank on the HULK,...and ill be fine with the fact that the skiff mines just as much but this CRAP that the skiff has a better tank,... THIS CRAP IS WHY I LEFT EVE THE FIRST TIME,.... CCP,....my one and only suggestion to you all,... ~-=+>UNINSTALL<+=-~ OH and fix the hulk before you go I honestly think CCP has done an excellent job with the game but this is a bit over the top. just rebalance the miners,... IMO the HULK should have the best tank, medium cargo and ore hold. the MAC, a bit bigger hold and about as much tank as the hulk, These two ships are the penticle of mining IMO The skiff,...I wont say nurf the tank but a tank that is BS sized?,...yea that is BS. and with the fact that it does as much as a hulk in ore,....>shakes head< you all have some real work ahead of you,..... =-=-=-=-=-=- remember,...stay in school, get education, stay off drugs, and fix my hulk. ~-=+>xXx<+=-~
Agondray Avenger Mercenaries VOID Intergalactic Forces 263	Posted - 2015.03.24 13:28:40 - [37] - Quote Gawain Edmond wrote: the hulk is still the best mining ship, pulls in more ore than the others, the other ships have things that are better than the hulk like tank and cargohold but the hulk still mines more than the others. Want to mine lots use a hulk. Want to mine afk while watching tv use a different one. Want to not get suicide ganked use the other one. Only one of those three is best at mining the others are better at not mining. ive seen the numbers and the hulk only outmines a mack but just over 100m3. even the skiff has a larger hold. also while hulkageddon started killing hulks, the following years saw anything of industry could be killed for points....you just don't see miners killing ore thieves and small fleets with the hulk anymore. "Sarcasm is the Recourse of a weak mind." -Dr. Smith
Reaver Glitterstim Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore 2393	Posted - 2015.03.24 20:21:09 - [38] - Quote PJRiddick wrote: hulk was the pentacle of my existence I agreed with you that the Hulk should be big and beefy, and the Skiff should, rather than being tough, be slippery and fast. When CCP tiericided barges, they approached them with the idea that all barges are medium ships, and that's part of the problem--in yours and my eyes anyway. One advantage, however, is that the Hulk doesn't cost much more than a Skiff. If the Skiff were destroyer sized and the Hulk battleship-sized, you'd be looking at a 75 mil Skiff and a bil+ hulk. A Caldari is just a Gallente who begged to have their civil liberties taken away.
Juan Mileghere Incident Command Southern Star Dominion 8	Posted - 2015.03.24 21:18:47 - [39] - Quote Extreme wrote: When CCP, 2.5 years ago, made new roles for Skiff, Mack and Hulk they "forgot" to take a look at the build requierements/ the total cost of build vs time to build vs market demand vs profit per ship. This is really unbalanced and should be reviewed by CCP. The Hulk cost way more to build, takes way longer to build but meanwhile there is way less market demand vs the Mack. You can produce 50 Macks a month vs 21 Hulks a month. Profit for a Mack is around 70M isk vs 8M isk for a Hulk. So even if the mining / cargo outcome is ok to some, CCP really have to look over the cost to build/ time to build. 8M profit for a Hulk while only 21 can be produced a month vs a Mack 70M profit while able to produce 50 and then also take into notice the number of sales per day 50 hulks vs 200 Macks tells me there is something broken here! Stop building Hulks then that just sounds like supply is WAY higher than demand
Alvatore DiMarco Capricious Endeavours Ltd 3587	Posted - 2015.03.24 21:25:26 - [40] - Quote The only change I would like to see is for all the ore holds to be modified so as to carry ice without having empty space left over. Adjust them up, down, sideways or whatever, just so that there isn't an extra 1k m3 or 500 m3 or even 1 m3.
Nevyn Auscent Broke Sauce 1987	Posted - 2015.03.24 21:37:20 - [41] - Quote Since this is a necro'ed discussion again.... The correct solution is actually to give one of the barges Cruiser or BC numbers of slots (14 or 17 for the T1's) depending on if you want to call them Cruiser or BC size. Make a module (which has a stacking penalty or fixed bonus only) which adds to ore hold (could be cargo extenders which should have stacking penalty anyway). And then give it cruiser/bc level base EHP & PG/CPU. Put a hard cap on the strip miners that can be fitted just like Command Links. (Could even allow Command processors to increase this if you really wanted ala utterly untanked 5 strip miners). And then turn the other two barges into alternative Ore ships. Like the often demanded Ore Transport and Ore Combat ship. Then players actually would have to make serious choices fitting their barges. Currently there is so much in the base stats and so few fitting slots & so little PG/CPU that you can't make any meaningful choices other than picking a hull. Having the majority of the stats be in the modules makes choices more meaningful and removes this silly trinary balancing that is going on.
PJRiddick CherryHill 6	Posted - 2015.03.30 18:41:36 - [42] - Quote Regardless of all the chatter, the skiff right now is top dog in the fight, it mines as well as the hulk, and has 3 times the tank, The mac is slower and has somewhat of a better hold but then theres the hulk,..WTF,...it has crap for a tank, and crap for a hold. now heres the punch line to the joke, The skiff is first in the skills tree,...and easier to get, I think. I really didnt look at the skills, since i can fly a hulk, and the skiff is in that tree family, im assuming the skill set is not as long to get the skiff. If you were to do anything, heres how i would do it SKIFF cut the mining bonuses by about 30%, tank by about half Mac The bonuses are good for the mining amount, Tank is good, ide like to see it tank a bit better HULK, Give it the tank that the skiff has, leave the mining amount as is, and double its hold. IF YOUR WORRIED ABOUT MACROS,...move the belts every day on respawn,...500KM,...thats is all it will take. You all are doing it to the ice,...Just dont have the belts have to be scanned,...just move them a bit every day,..that should throw a wrench in the works for macros. and as far as gankers go, just flying a hulk is just asking for a gank.....IMO
Kueyen Mei-Ha's Light 112	Posted - 2015.03.30 19:27:02 - [43] - Quote PJRiddick wrote: it mines as well as the hulk Enough of these lies: Max skill, max-yield-fitted comparison (base # of strip miners * mining barge bonus * exhumer bonus * role bonus * MLU2 bonus) Skiff: 1 * (1/(1-50.02)) (1/(1-50.02)) (1+1.50) * (1.09 ^ 3) = 3.997 effective strip miners. Mackinaw: 2 * (1/(1-50.02)) (1/(1-50.02)) (1+0.25) * (1.09 ^ 3) = 3.997 effective strip miners. Hulk: 3 * (1/(1-50.04)) (1/(1-50.03)) (1+0.00) * (1.09 ^ 2) = 5.242 effective strip miners. Hulks have a yield that is 31.14% better than that of Skiffs or Mackinaws. And that's fine. Until all are free...
Maldiro Selkurk CHEMO IMMUNO RESISTANT VIRUS X 218	Posted - 2015.03.30 23:17:42 - [44] - Quote Extreme wrote: When CCP, 2.5 years ago, made new roles for Skiff, Mack and Hulk they "forgot" to take a look at the build requierements/ the total cost of build vs time to build vs market demand vs profit per ship. This is really unbalanced and should be reviewed by CCP. The Hulk cost way more to build, takes way longer to build but meanwhile there is way less market demand vs the Mack. You can produce 50 Macks a month vs 21 Hulks a month. Profit for a Mack is around 70M isk vs 8M isk for a Hulk. So even if the mining / cargo outcome is ok to some, CCP really have to look over the cost to build/ time to build. 8M profit for a Hulk while only 21 can be produced a month vs a Mack 70M profit while able to produce 50 and then also take into notice the number of sales per day 50 hulks vs 200 Macks tells me there is something broken here! CCP doesnt need to change anything. You find low profits building hulks, dont build them. If many industrialists feel as you do and stop building them the price will rise until industrialists again see profits they like and start making them again. Yawn,-á I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really.
Celthric Kanerian Ascendance Of New Eden Workers Trade Federation 259	Posted - 2015.03.30 23:35:28 - [45] - Quote The stupidity and ignorance of this post hurts my brain...
PJRiddick CherryHill 6	Posted - 2015.04.06 16:36:35 - [46] - Quote Kueyen wrote: PJRiddick wrote: it mines as well as the hulk Enough of these lies: Max skill, max-yield-fitted comparison (base # of strip miners * mining barge bonus * exhumer bonus * role bonus * MLU2 bonus) Skiff: 1 * (1/(1-50.02)) (1/(1-50.02)) (1+1.50) * (1.09 ^ 3) = 3.997 effective strip miners. Mackinaw: 2 * (1/(1-50.02)) (1/(1-50.02)) (1+0.25) * (1.09 ^ 3) = 3.997 effective strip miners. Hulk: 3 * (1/(1-50.04)) (1/(1-50.03)) (1+0.00) * (1.09 ^ 2) = 5.242 effective strip miners. Hulks have a yield that is 31.14% better than that of Skiffs or Mackinaws. And that's fine. =-=-=- Its not the output of the hulk VS the SKIFF that im disputing, its the tank. Heres my ***, When im in belt, and 3 CATS can come in on me and gank me before they can get concorded,VS a SKIFF with a max tank and strip II running crystals, and gankers wont even look at you because they know that they are not going to break you before CONCORD has them for lunch,...**, The SKIFF has more tank or at least as much tank as the ORCA!,...now how balanced is that? Thats the point of this argument. In my book, the HULK being the KING of the MINERS, BIG BAD HULK, should have the tank of the skiff, and the skiff, the tank of the Hulk, as it sits NOW! The way it is now, Is just,...just,...WRONG I say to CCP again,..~-=+>UNINSTALL<+=-~
PJRiddick CherryHill 6	Posted - 2015.04.06 16:41:11 - [47] - Quote OH and one more thing before i go,. With the Skiff, Im getting as much out of the skiff with T-II crystals and ONE strip as i did with 3 T-II strips and crystals on the hulk. So what gives with that then? And yet the tank on the skiff is as much as the orca or a BS,... Balancing is just an art form, but to the layman, Its all smoke and mirrors. ~-=+>xXx<+=-~ Fly safe and eat your vegetables
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 2428	Posted - 2015.04.06 16:51:37 - [48] - Quote does the word 'balance' just pass over your head riddick? EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
LuckyQuarter Lucky Galactic Expeditions 37	Posted - 2015.04.06 17:10:05 - [49] - Quote Skiff sacrifices a lot in order to get its tank. Only 1 strip miner...missed cycles make it much slower. It doesn't have the yield bonuses of the hulk either. Skiff is supposed to be the exhumer with average mining rate, average ore hold, and great tank. Mac has big ore hold, average mining rate, and average tank. Hulk has excellent mining rate, small ore hold, and small tank. I'd be fine with giving the hulk a bigger ore hold or slightly faster mining rate, but otherwise I think the ships are balanced pretty well. If there is an issue, it is that there isn't a growth plan for miners past the hulk....I'd like to see a BS or t3 type miner...and, the prospect doesn't count!
PJRiddick CherryHill 6	Posted - 2015.04.06 17:53:24 - [50] - Quote now theres an idea,..T-III miners!,.. Bonuses in Low sec! CCP,...are you listening!
Tiddle Jr Galvanized Inc. 100	Posted - 2015.04.07 00:10:53 - [51] - Quote Extreme wrote: When CCP, 2.5 years ago, made new roles for Skiff, Mack and Hulk they "forgot" to take a look at the build requierements/ the total cost of build vs time to build vs market demand vs profit per ship. This is really unbalanced and should be reviewed by CCP. The Hulk cost way more to build, takes way longer to build but meanwhile there is way less market demand vs the Mack. You can produce 50 Macks a month vs 21 Hulks a month. Profit for a Mack is around 70M isk vs 8M isk for a Hulk. So even if the mining / cargo outcome is ok to some, CCP really have to look over the cost to build/ time to build. 8M profit for a Hulk while only 21 can be produced a month vs a Mack 70M profit while able to produce 50 and then also take into notice the number of sales per day 50 hulks vs 200 Macks tells me there is something broken here! I'm not even sure if someone biulding t2 mining barges from blanket bpo. So your math on build cost is not correct.
Tiddle Jr Galvanized Inc. 100	Posted - 2015.04.07 00:14:08 - [52] - Quote elitatwo wrote: Unsuccessful At Everything wrote: Hulk is king of the miners. They just require you to be at the computer and use and orca and/or other support to haul. Mack just became popular because of the uberoreholds and the buffed tank which made them better for AFK miners. If anything, the SKIFF needs to be fixed and have its yield reduced. To have good yield AND battleship tank AND drone bonus is just bad design that sends the wrong message to its 'entitled' pilots. Noooes.. The idea was that all barges and exhumers would mine more or less the same amount of ore per time, so you wouldn't be "yield punished" by choosing one over the over three. If anything we would need a gas harvester module. The purpose of the rebalance in regard of Hulk and Covetor make those main choice for mining gangs with maxed yield but as a trade of that both have smallest ore hold.
Tiddle Jr Galvanized Inc. 100	Posted - 2015.04.07 00:18:39 - [53] - Quote And regarding the hulkageddon event, from the very specific show not officially scheduled but very well known and expected by community it sadly turned into a routine operations when those New Order and later CODE appeared in masses.
admiral root Red Galaxy 2660	Posted - 2015.04.07 00:29:03 - [54] - Quote PJRiddick wrote: In my book, the HULK being the KING of the MINERS, BIG BAD HULK, should have the tank of the skiff, and the skiff, the tank of the Hulk, as it sits NOW! At which point the yields would also need to be swapped, so what exactly is the point? No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff \| No-one hates you, none of us care enough for that. A recent survey of applicants to CODE. corporations showed that 100% accepted James 315 as their saviour. You can't argue with facts.
Rowells ANZAC ALLIANCE Fidelas Constans 2229	Posted - 2015.04.07 00:50:18 - [55] - Quote Celthric Kanerian wrote: The stupidity and ignorance of this post hurts my brain... If it makes you feel any better it's probably intentional
Nevyn Auscent Broke Sauce 2003	Posted - 2015.04.07 00:53:08 - [56] - Quote Same as always, get rid of two of the barges, turn them into a hauler and a combat cruiser for ORE. And give the third barge REAL fittings, like PG & CPU of a Cruiser or BC, and the same number of slots. Then let fittings decide everything rather than hard baked stats.
Reaver Glitterstim Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore 2414	Posted - 2015.04.07 04:49:29 - [57] - Quote Nevyn Auscent wrote: Since this is a necro'ed discussion again.... The correct solution is actually to give one of the barges Cruiser or BC numbers of slots (14 or 17 for the T1's) depending on if you want to call them Cruiser or BC size. Make a module (which has a stacking penalty or fixed bonus only) which adds to ore hold (could be cargo extenders which should have stacking penalty anyway). And then give it cruiser/bc level base EHP & PG/CPU. Put a hard cap on the strip miners that can be fitted just like Command Links. (Could even allow Command processors to increase this if you really wanted ala utterly untanked 5 strip miners). And then turn the other two barges into alternative Ore ships. Like the often demanded Ore Transport and Ore Combat ship. Then players actually would have to make serious choices fitting their barges. Currently there is so much in the base stats and so few fitting slots & so little PG/CPU that you can't make any meaningful choices other than picking a hull. Having the majority of the stats be in the modules makes choices more meaningful and removes this silly trinary balancing that is going on. Nevyn Auscent wrote: Same as always, get rid of two of the barges, turn them into a hauler and a combat cruiser for ORE. And give the third barge REAL fittings, like PG & CPU of a Cruiser or BC, and the same number of slots. Then let fittings decide everything rather than hard baked stats. If I didn't know better, I'd say you were me. CCP should hire us to fix this mess. Nevyn Auscent wrote: Then let fittings decide everything rather than hard baked stats. It's so obvious, yet they can't seem to see it. Or perhaps the problem is that they are catering to simple folk who can't be bothered to fit a ship, so they require hard-coded stats with almost no wiggle room so they can't accidentally do it wrong. Retrievers with too much EHP to be suicide ganked by a catalyst when they don't have any modules installed? Come on, seriously. A Caldari is just a Gallente who begged to have their civil liberties taken away.
Nevyn Auscent Broke Sauce 2007	Posted - 2015.04.07 06:14:31 - [58] - Quote Well. Nothing says 1 catalyst is the level to balance at to be fair. It's just people got used to that being the level for so long that when it changed to need two it felt odd. But you need two to gang most bc's and all bs also. At least. So it depends what class of ship CCP consider a barge to be size equivalent to. But it's not that miners can't handle fittings. A lot of people asked for real fittings when they got changed also. Just because there were three barges they kept three barges. To avoid a hugely messy bpo and hull change over.
Reaver Glitterstim Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore 2414	Posted - 2015.04.07 06:26:41 - [59] - Quote My point was more that its EHP with a perfect tank fitting is barely higher than its base EHP. The damage control module makes a lot more difference than everything else put together. I don't think a catalyst should be able to gank a properly-tanked barge, not by any stretch. It's way too cheap. But a properly fit catalyst should be able to take apart an undefended cruiser of any sort, as they are a rather high damage ship. If it had proper fitting room and a catalyst couldn't take it out undefended, it might take more than two tornadoes to kill it with a proper tank. Now the gank ships begin to cost a lot more than the target. A Caldari is just a Gallente who begged to have their civil liberties taken away.
Nevyn Auscent Broke Sauce 2008	Posted - 2015.04.07 06:51:35 - [60] - Quote Yea. Agree on the fittings barely making a difference being a huge issue.

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