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Byzan Zwyth
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Posted - 2006.09.13 19:56:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Byzan Zwyth on 13/09/2006 19:56:57 Edit: wow nasty slip of the finger lol, content coming ---------------------- I fly Amarr and Gallente ships Amarr because they peow peow and look cool... Gallente because they are effective |
Taince Vohen
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Posted - 2006.09.13 20:15:00 -
[2]
what npcs were you fighting against?
what are your other cap skills like?
what crystals were you using?
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Shandling
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Posted - 2006.09.13 20:18:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Shandling on 13/09/2006 20:18:21 Are your cap skills (engineering type) trained up to at least 4? Energy Systems Operation and Energy Management are crucial. Also, get Controlled Bursts to 4, that's another 5% off each firing.
If you enjoy fitting projectiles on the Prophecy... do it. :) It's fun to think outside the box. And if you're having an easier time with it than with lasers for now, why change?
However, if you're going to stick w/ Amarr ships, most of the boni on the ships you'll fly will relate to your lasers. So, you should probably continue to work on raising up your cap skills.
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Gariuys
Evil Strangers Inc.
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Posted - 2006.09.13 20:21:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Byzan Zwyth Edited by: Byzan Zwyth on 13/09/2006 20:08:28 Doing lvl III missions on my prophecy over the last couple of days and I'm getting sick of having to warp out when my cap runs dry and my tank is about to break. I get a mission which I have to warp out twice on but I nail it the third time, at this point I decide to play with my ship setup.
I figure the lasers are eating my cap big time, I have BC lvl 3 and controlled bursts 3 which reduces cap need of my weapons but it's still killing me so the only thing to do is try projectile weapons......
I have to train a couple to small III then Med I to fit a set of 6 medium projectile weapons but a couple hours later I've trained the skills and run around to pick up a nice set of named artillery. Fit up my ship, swap the heat sink for a Gyro buy some amo and get another mission.
What do you know I get the exact same mission I just had to warp out twice on using lasers.
SO what happens?
I did not even break a sweat, my cap never went under 45% and my tank was always healthy I would say the setup with projectiles was twice as powerful as the laser setup even though at this point I only had lvl 1 med projectile skill vs lvl 3 med energy weapon skill.
Edited by: Byzan Zwyth on 13/09/2006 19:56:57
So your laser setup is crap, your skills worse, and with projectiles your tank held, but it took you ages to complete the misison. Yep sounds like a very convincing argument to fit projectiles to your Amarrian ships... or how about you get a decent setup, train the correct skills and steam through those misisons?
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Byzan Zwyth
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Posted - 2006.09.13 20:43:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Gariuys
Originally by: Byzan Zwyth Edited by: Byzan Zwyth on 13/09/2006 20:08:28 Doing lvl III missions on my prophecy over the last couple of days and I'm getting sick of having to warp out when my cap runs dry and my tank is about to break. I get a mission which I have to warp out twice on but I nail it the third time, at this point I decide to play with my ship setup.
I figure the lasers are eating my cap big time, I have BC lvl 3 and controlled bursts 3 which reduces cap need of my weapons but it's still killing me so the only thing to do is try projectile weapons......
I have to train a couple to small III then Med I to fit a set of 6 medium projectile weapons but a couple hours later I've trained the skills and run around to pick up a nice set of named artillery. Fit up my ship, swap the heat sink for a Gyro buy some amo and get another mission.
What do you know I get the exact same mission I just had to warp out twice on using lasers.
SO what happens?
I did not even break a sweat, my cap never went under 45% and my tank was always healthy I would say the setup with projectiles was twice as powerful as the laser setup even though at this point I only had lvl 1 med projectile skill vs lvl 3 med energy weapon skill.
Edited by: Byzan Zwyth on 13/09/2006 19:56:57
So your laser setup is crap, your skills worse, and with projectiles your tank held, but it took you ages to complete the misison. Yep sounds like a very convincing argument to fit projectiles to your Amarrian ships... or how about you get a decent setup, train the correct skills and steam through those misisons?
Sorry I'm trying to see where I said it took me ages to complete the mission? Nope, not there. It was easy, I was getting hits over 220 and I could run the AB longer so killing was faster and getting around was faster.
I was using ultraviolet m crystals which have -35% cap use, with BC III -30% and CB III -15%
so my cap skills are crap? I need to train BC to 5 and CB to 5?
Hang on that's a few weeks training for what? Just to get lasers to about the same lvl as my projectile weapons are now with less than a day of training? Hmmmmmm...... ---------------------- I fly Amarr and Gallente ships Amarr because they peow peow and look cool... Gallente because they are effective |
Ithildin
Gallente The Corporation
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Posted - 2006.09.13 20:45:00 -
[6]
Play as you wish. If you found a setup that works for you, why whine about it on the forums?
The reason you do not get any wind in your sails is that a lot of people play long term and do go for all those skills to level 5. - Three years old |
Serious Bob
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Posted - 2006.09.13 20:48:00 -
[7]
Cap skills refer to energy 'management' and 'energy systems operations'. Already mentioned, but you should look into those.
I havven't flown amarr, but I would think focusing on damage instead of cap use per shot would save you cap in the long run.
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Taince Vohen
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Posted - 2006.09.13 20:55:00 -
[8]
Looking you up it seems you have high standings towards caldari navy so I assume you are running missions for them. So you're likely to be fighting Guristas which have high EM resistances, which just happens to be the main damage type of your lasers. In that case projectiles are likely to work better since you will be doing damage to their lower resists.
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Byzan Zwyth
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Posted - 2006.09.13 21:18:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Byzan Zwyth on 13/09/2006 21:25:26 you said "So your laser setup is crap"
so where did I list my laser setup?
I was experimenting with 2 setups
one with the best named heavy beam lasers the other with named Focused medium beam lasers, I had 3 sets of crystals to load up depending on the range I needed but mostly used UV
---------------------- I fly Amarr and Gallente ships Amarr because they peow peow and look cool... Gallente because they are effective |
dalman
Finite Auxiliary
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Posted - 2006.09.13 21:19:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Byzan Zwyth So... If I use amarr ships should I work on my projectile skills?
No. Unless you just feel like wasting alot of time.
Am I forced to have any regret? I've become the lie, beautiful and free In my righteous own mind I adore and preach the insanity you gave to me |
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Byzan Zwyth
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Posted - 2006.09.13 21:43:00 -
[11]
Originally by: dalman
Originally by: Byzan Zwyth So... If I use amarr ships should I work on my projectile skills?
No. Unless you just feel like wasting alot of time.
That's not really my question. Looking at the ships bonuses there is no reason to choose energy weapons over projectile weapons unless you have uber cap skills and BC 5 trained and even then it only seems like you may have a small advantage over projectile if any (more cargo space!). Without a damage for energy weapons on this boat.
It's not really about the type of damage I'm doing either. It's about the fact when I'm using lasers my weapons and tank have to share the ships cap. But when I'm using projectile weapons my tank has the ships cap all to itself. Without a good ship bonus for energy weapons there really is no need to use them. ---------------------- I fly Amarr and Gallente ships Amarr because they peow peow and look cool... Gallente because they are effective |
xenodia
Gallente Trinity Nova
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Posted - 2006.09.13 22:01:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Ithildin Play as you wish. If you found a setup that works for you, why whine about it on the forums?
The reason you do not get any wind in your sails is that a lot of people play long term and do go for all those skills to level 5.
Because the whole original post was a stealth whine about amarr laser issues. Its the same old tired "zomg beams suck so amarr have to use projectiles" argument, but with a new spin.
TNT website here or killboard here |
Xendie
Hunter Killers
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Posted - 2006.09.13 22:03:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Byzan Zwyth
Originally by: dalman
Originally by: Byzan Zwyth So... If I use amarr ships should I work on my projectile skills?
No. Unless you just feel like wasting alot of time.
That's not really my question. Looking at the ships bonuses there is no reason to choose energy weapons over projectile weapons unless you have uber cap skills and BC 5 trained and even then it only seems like you may have a small advantage over projectile if any (more cargo space!). Without a damage for energy weapons on this boat.
It's not really about the type of damage I'm doing either. It's about the fact when I'm using lasers my weapons and tank have to share the ships cap. But when I'm using projectile weapons my tank has the ships cap all to itself. Without a good ship bonus for energy weapons there really is no need to use them.
you just described one reason as to why amarr is screwed atm. and almost everyone uses minmatar or gallente guns on prophecy's. and some ppl who are known as the "anti-amarr" faction is vahemently trying to supress any evidence of such disadvantages on the forums. that is due to the fact that it means that amarr must be fixed at some point in time and they dont like that as it would retract dev time from boosting their own factions ships and guns.
Quote: Nertzius > having fun being incompetitent?
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Twilight Moon
Minmatar eXceed Inc. Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.09.13 22:05:00 -
[14]
Yeah, but you'll regret not training projectiles when you switch to using Amarrian ships that do have bonuses to damage for Energy Weapons.
For example, no-one in their right mind is going to put Projectiles on an Armageddon.
...on the other hand using a banana might be a viable alternative.
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dalman
Finite Auxiliary
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Posted - 2006.09.13 22:11:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Byzan Zwyth
Originally by: dalman
Originally by: Byzan Zwyth So... If I use amarr ships should I work on my projectile skills?
No. Unless you just feel like wasting alot of time.
That's not really my question. Looking at the ships bonuses there is no reason to choose energy weapons over projectile weapons unless you have uber cap skills and BC 5 trained and even then it only seems like you may have a small advantage over projectile if any (more cargo space!). Without a damage for energy weapons on this boat.
It's not really about the type of damage I'm doing either. It's about the fact when I'm using lasers my weapons and tank have to share the ships cap. But when I'm using projectile weapons my tank has the ships cap all to itself. Without a good ship bonus for energy weapons there really is no need to use them.
A heavy beam laser with multif crystals does 49% more dps than a 720 with EMP ammo. That's if you have laser and projectile skills at same level. And on the prophecy that doesn't have a damage bonus.
Or in other words, you can fit 2 gyrostabs on your projectile setup, and on your laser setup fit 2 cap relays and 0 heat sinks. And the laser setup will still do more damage and you won't run out of cap. And you won't have to bother with ammo.
That's answer enough? Am I forced to have any regret? I've become the lie, beautiful and free In my righteous own mind I adore and preach the insanity you gave to me |
Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2006.09.13 22:23:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Byzan Zwyth
I figure the lasers are eating my cap big time, I have BC lvl 3 and controlled bursts 3 which reduces cap need of my weapons but it's still killing me so the only thing to do is try projectile weapons......
you will need really good cap skills to be able to fire lasers and tank for a extended period of time. once you have those good skills that should no longer be an issue for pve purposes.
if your damage with projectiles is far better than with lasers you've most likely just fought the wrong enemies. if you plan on using lasers for missions you want to do missions for amarr and fight against blood radiers/sanshas and drones.
if you fight mordus/angels/other suckers and want to use a prophecy then yes projectiles may be better for those.
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Byzan Zwyth
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Posted - 2006.09.13 22:23:00 -
[17]
yeah I understand that on ships like the Armageddon energy weapons are the ones to use but then you have ships like the Apoc which is back to projectiles again.
The problem I have now is do I give up on the projectiles for amarr ships idea and go back to energy weapons. Accept the fact I'm going to suck for a month or so before I have uber cap skills and I'll be on par with projectiles?
Stick with projectiles and amarr ships, seems right now a few of them are better with projectile weapons but that could change.
Or do I keep training projectile weapons and start training to use ships that are designed to fit them
When I started the game I thought I would try both amarr and gallente ships and see what I liked then stick with one. Gallente seemed better but amarr ships look cooler so I had to pick amarr. Now I would trade all those ships and skills for mini ones if I could. ---------------------- I fly Amarr and Gallente ships Amarr because they peow peow and look cool... Gallente because they are effective |
Guillame Herschel
Gallente Cheers Restaurant and Bar Nova Republic
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Posted - 2006.09.13 22:31:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Twilight Moon For example, no-one in their right mind is going to put Projectiles on an Armageddon.
...on the other hand using a banana might be a viable alternative.
Perfect sig segue. -- Guile can always trump hardware -- |
Byzan Zwyth
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Posted - 2006.09.13 22:43:00 -
[19]
Originally by: dalman Edited by: dalman on 13/09/2006 22:19:53
Originally by: Byzan Zwyth
Originally by: dalman
Originally by: Byzan Zwyth So... If I use amarr ships should I work on my projectile skills?
No. Unless you just feel like wasting alot of time.
That's not really my question. Looking at the ships bonuses there is no reason to choose energy weapons over projectile weapons unless you have uber cap skills and BC 5 trained and even then it only seems like you may have a small advantage over projectile if any (more cargo space!). Without a damage for energy weapons on this boat.
It's not really about the type of damage I'm doing either. It's about the fact when I'm using lasers my weapons and tank have to share the ships cap. But when I'm using projectile weapons my tank has the ships cap all to itself. Without a good ship bonus for energy weapons there really is no need to use them.
I only saw you ask one question in the topic and post, and I think I answered it already
A heavy beam laser with multif crystals does 49% more dps than a 720 with EMP ammo. That's if you have laser and projectile skills at same level. And on the prophecy that doesn't have a damage bonus.
Or in other words, you can fit 2 gyrostabs on your projectile setup, and on your laser setup fit 2 cap relays and 0 heat sinks. And the laser setup will still do more damage and you won't run out of cap. And you won't have to bother with ammo.
That's answer enough?
I've just been looking at comparisons of damage between projectile and energy weapons and it does seem energy weapons have better damage but nothing like 49% maybe something like 10-15% before resists which evens out some considering projectiles do "better" damage types and you can pick your damage type in some cases. But when you consider that 6+ lasers blasting away can *****your cap and projectiles dont use any cap, in those cases projectiles are the winner.
49% does sound high, if that was the case I would expect the forum to be full of people QQing about how they were getting their faces fried by lasers and their projectile weapons wre no match. ---------------------- I fly Amarr and Gallente ships Amarr because they peow peow and look cool... Gallente because they are effective |
Stamm
Amarr Three Holdings Rule of Three
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Posted - 2006.09.13 22:47:00 -
[20]
It's virtually no training to be able to use large projectiles if you can already use lasers, so there's no reason why not. Lasers are usually better on Amarr ships than projectiles, but there's times when they aren't.
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dalman
Finite Auxiliary
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Posted - 2006.09.13 22:48:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Byzan Zwyth yeah I understand that on ships like the Armageddon energy weapons are the ones to use but then you have ships like the Apoc which is back to projectiles again.
The problem I have now is do I give up on the projectiles for amarr ships idea and go back to energy weapons. Accept the fact I'm going to suck for a month or so before I have uber cap skills and I'll be on par with projectiles?
Stick with projectiles and amarr ships, seems right now a few of them are better with projectile weapons but that could change.
Or do I keep training projectile weapons and start training to use ships that are designed to fit them
When I started the game I thought I would try both amarr and gallente ships and see what I liked then stick with one. Gallente seemed better but amarr ships look cooler so I had to pick amarr. Now I would trade all those ships and skills for mini ones if I could.
But what part in "49% more damage" is it that you don't understand?
If you would have been minmatar and flying a Cyclone, and go fighting against Blood Raider/Sansha NPCs, you would kill an NPC considerably faster if you used lasers instead of projectiles. Just that you'd have bigger cap problems.
Lasers already have a built in damagebonus which is bigger than the 25% other races gets from lvl 5 in their ship. But instead lasers use alot of cap, and therefor amarr ships gets a laser cap use bonus, so that they can manage them easier. The prophecy and apoc so to say have a damagebonus: the cap bonus that 'allows' them to use lasers. While the armageddon in the same way has 2 bonuses to damage.
If you have cap problems, then for god's sake remove that heatsink and put in a cap relay instead: you'll still do quite alot more damage than your projectile setup and your cap should be lots better.
Am I forced to have any regret? I've become the lie, beautiful and free In my righteous own mind I adore and preach the insanity you gave to me |
Dred'Pirate Jesus
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2006.09.13 22:48:00 -
[22]
There is no one perfect fit..
Yes, Amarr's default weapon is the laser but thats doesnt mean you can't fit anouther weapon type and this is especially true for the Amarr ships with no damage bonus. So use whatever works for the situation your in.
So here's the solution.. Train for both sets of weapons and be able to use those lovely golden ships to full potential. In the long run it won't really be that much of a time loss as you can get to T2 cruiser guns fairly quickly.
[2:02:08] Dred'Pirate Jesus > I'm Mexican you dolt.. It's pronouced "hey zeus" not "gee zus" :-p |
Bloodst0ne
The Priory
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Posted - 2006.09.13 22:50:00 -
[23]
Wait till next patch.. then train up projectiles.
-blood
I have the "I Win Button" of eve. |
Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Chimaera Pact
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Posted - 2006.09.13 22:53:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne you will need really good cap skills to be able to fire lasers and tank for a extended period of time. once you have those good skills that should no longer be an issue for pve purposes.
Quote: if you fight mordus/angels/other suckers and want to use a prophecy then yes projectiles may be better for those.
Jepp, vs mordus, gurista, thukker and angels (and probably vs caldari and minnie navy too, but not 100% sure there) you have with lasers a considerably higher resistances than with projectiles (for example 70% average resistance for lasers vs 50% average for projectiles for a 1.25 mil angel BS), so vs these targets projectiles will actually be more effective than lasers (unless your ship has an damage bonus).
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Dred'Pirate Jesus
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2006.09.13 22:57:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Dred''Pirate Jesus on 13/09/2006 22:58:45 edit: beat me too it.
dalman are you just giving out raw damage or are you figuring in that every race has a high base armor resist vs the main Amarr damage type of EM plus the easily boosted thermal? And if memory serves me right projectile guns can choose damage type to combat any races weak resist spot. Dunno bout you but that sounds mighty handy to me..
[2:02:08] Dred'Pirate Jesus > I'm Mexican you dolt.. It's pronouced "hey zeus" not "gee zus" :-p |
Byzan Zwyth
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Posted - 2006.09.13 23:09:00 -
[26]
dalman I'm just not seeing lasers being 49% better in game
even though my laser skill is 3 and my projectile skill is 1 I do seem to be killing the NPC's a little faster with projectile but they do have higher resist to EM so lasers are not as good. The projectiles are slower but hit a lot harder so it seems to about even up. ---------------------- I fly Amarr and Gallente ships Amarr because they peow peow and look cool... Gallente because they are effective |
Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Chimaera Pact
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Posted - 2006.09.13 23:21:00 -
[27]
From the pure dps dalman is right.
The problem arises when you fight certain NPCs (which are no "exeptions" btw, from the pure systems occupied I would say gurista and angels are close to 50% of all eve rats) you encounter higher "maximum resists" than therm/kin guns ever face. It's the same for exp/kin resists for the matari, but they have ammo which does other damage types, so this is no real issue for them.
Anyway, vs for example angel and gurista a heavy beam will, while still having higher base damage, do after resistances *lower* effective damage. Thats the "problem".
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Scordite
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Posted - 2006.09.14 04:41:00 -
[28]
Meh, I run 6x heavy pulse with x-ray mainly, ab, web and hardeners non-stop on my prophecy, with as much repping as needed to avoid warping in lvl 3s (which I do in caldari space, so mainly vs guristas). Angel x bonus stage excluded, that takes a little improvisation.
If I could be arsed to train bc skill from 3 to 5, it'd get even better as well, both from a weapon cap use perspective, and a repper cap use one, since more resists equals less damage taken equals less rep needed.
This is with two slots devoted entirely to cap recharge, a mid and a low. And I'm not talking about cap injector here.
That being said, a single nos will break my mission running setup quite easily.
----------------------------------------------- The only legitimate use of the BLINK tag: Schr÷dinger's cat is [BLINK] not [/BLINK] dead. |
Tyler Lowe
Minmatar DROW Org Sylph Alliance
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Posted - 2006.09.14 06:38:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Tyler Lowe on 14/09/2006 06:42:06
Originally by: Aramendel From the pure dps dalman is right.
The problem arises when you fight certain NPCs (which are no "exeptions" btw, from the pure systems occupied I would say gurista and angels are close to 50% of all eve rats) you encounter higher "maximum resists" than therm/kin guns ever face. It's the same for exp/kin resists for the matari, but they have ammo which does other damage types, so this is no real issue for them.
Anyway, vs for example angel and gurista a heavy beam will, while still having higher base damage, do after resistances *lower* effective damage. Thats the "problem".
EMP ammo also does plenty of explosive and kinetic damage, enough so that phased plasma is generally favored, since the EM damage is so diluted it ends up being better to hit the second best resistance. Hitting the second best resistance with weak damage output pretty much amounts to the same thing some Amarr players are complaining about non stop.
The grass is always greener isn't it?
For the OP: Yes, those last ranks of skill do make a huge difference. The game is amazingly well balanced in that regard. Pushing you cap skills, controlled burst and ship skills to max level puts you in an entirely different category comparitive to where you are now.
Use the projectiles short term if it helps. Long term, you'll be much better off skilling up in your chosen race. J.A.F.O.
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Enigmier
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Posted - 2006.09.14 08:03:00 -
[30]
without the minmatar ship bonus projectiles generaly suck for damage, stick with lasers if your amarr, the ability to pick damage types is not all its made out to be unless your fitted on a minnie ship, projectiles do poor damage and the ammo is generally weaker in the first place.
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