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Just get rid of BS sized NPCs

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Reggie Stoneloader	Posted - 2006.09.18 14:45:00 - [31] Let me check my wallet... Dang, I'm about eight million bucks shy.
Ellaine TashMurkon MetaForge Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2006.09.18 15:56:00 - [32] Lol. I only lack will and free time. to continue developing my own amazing game with reasonable speed ;) (Its Eve's fault to some degree).
Zarch AlDain Friends of Everyone	Posted - 2006.09.18 17:01:00 - [33] There are a lot of reasons money replaced barter. All you are suggesting is a new form of isk with a different name (in your bundles of materials) and a lot more hassle for everyone. Zarch AlDain
Reggie Stoneloader	Posted - 2006.09.18 17:13:00 - [34] The difference is that isk doesn't have a concrete value in the game world. As isk floods into the market and T2 prices rise (CovOps cloak price has doubled in the last eight months), T1 prices and mineral prices remain static. As isk is devalued, so are the T1 modules, ships and minerals. The takes the economy of EvE away from being driven by players interacting with the world and toward being dominated by players farming isk-generating game mechanics, such as battleship-class rats. A system of manufacturable "currency" would more accurately represent the actual sum of the wealth in EvE.
LC Sulla BGG Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2006.09.18 17:42:00 - [35] Sure... 1.5M ISK triple BS spawns certainly look like a major ISK faucet unrivaled in empire even in lvl 4 missions. But by looking at their purpose you understand why it is the way it is. What are we all doing out in 0.0? Earning money to buy expensive ships (remember t2 ships are not really insurable - nor are all the fancy modules) so we can go kill each other. HAC's range from 150-300M a ship not including all the named, t2, and faction modules you pretty much need to use. Ratting provides the money to buy these things while mining and moon minerals provide the matreials to make them (and some ISK from selling materials too). Most of us just want to earn enough so we can front up with nice ships in our gangs for when we go out and shoot each other. Changing this basic premise would change everything in 0.0.
Ellaine TashMurkon MetaForge Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2006.09.18 17:53:00 - [36] Economy is ran by big player companies and local economy is ran by small player companies. I dont see real problem in inflation. Everything that can be done, can be done with T1 technology. T1 prices are fixed near mineral prices because its very easy to make, especialy if You have rivers of isk. All capital ships are T1. PvE rewards are fixed. With progressing inflation, player interaction becomes more rewarding compared to PvE - players have simply more money to pay their mercenaries or to loose to pirates. If inflations gets far enough, mining low end minerals will become totally not worth miners time and this will make people buy suhttles to get tritanium en masse. An this will create the ultimate isk sink. Untill trit is below 4 isk, no need to worry about inflation :)
ragewind Caldari VersaTech Interstellar Ltd. SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2006.09.18 17:58:00 - [37] FFS are you really all trying to say 0.0 battle ship rats are screwing the eve economy? Not 0.0 macro mining? Not 10/10 complex whoring? Not the T2 billionaire lottery? Not the T2 monopoly greedÆs? get a grip 0.0 bs chaning isnt the fastest way in eve to make money by a long shot. easyest thing that needs adressing is the T2 bpo/player ratio they were set ages ago playerbase has changed but the bpo's havent add to this greeed and players buying all the bpo's up so they control the market and you have instant garentyed wealth ------------------------------------ Dragon the patch to optimise EVE. Welcome to Tranquillity the optimised snail Please wait 4 minuets to jump war targets are 2 seconds away.
Gaogan Gallente Solar Storm Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.09.18 18:11:00 - [38] How many drugs did you consume over what period of time to come up with this inane nattering? What difference does it make where the resources come from? Farming is farming, be it rats or roids. And as it stands you can already make more from mining than ratting.
ragewind Caldari VersaTech Interstellar Ltd. SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2006.09.18 18:22:00 - [39] the whole point of this is about 0.0 BS spawns these and not very isk rich are proberly too easy, but are the only chalaging npc's to fight removing these will make it boaring. as for rating 10-15mil an hour usesing up ammo mining is 100+mil an hour with the hulks and gang mods. complexes can be a bil a run + atleast once a day maybe more T2 ships can be well anyone guess what is the current mark up on the likes of hulks 1600% - 2000% more 1-2 ship sales a day and you are sorted. its a good point that farming can have negertive points on the game but 0.0 BS spawns are not the major way of farming ------------------------------------ Dragon the patch to optimise EVE. Welcome to Tranquillity the optimised snail Please wait 4 minuets to jump war targets are 2 seconds away.
Reggie Stoneloader	Posted - 2006.09.18 18:56:00 - [40] There's nothing wrong with isk going in and out of your wallet, it's a matter of isk going in and out of the game. Farming asteroids brings in minerals, which are turned into ships and then destroyed in combat. It flows in, and it flows out. Isk flows into the system by the billions, and seeps out a few thousand at a time with slot rentals, repair fees and office rentals in empire, and the odd BPO purchase. Otherwise, it just flows around from player to player, gravitating especially toward the holders of T2 BPOs. As the amount of currency in the game increases, the value of the individual isk goes down, so more currency is called for. The cycle repeats endlessly, and there's no outlet. The consequence of this, for PvPers, is that you can't afford to fight hard, because you can't afford to lose. So you use crappy tactics like logging in and out to avoid fights that you aren't sure to win and survive. That's lame. Make the means of combat fairly easy to come by, and have tactical objectives in combat, stationary, defensible assets that really mean something, so fronts can move based on what territory can be held and defended, not the location of easily camped chokepoints. Right now, the most expensive and precious thing in eve is a navy. You defend them by logging and ganking, because there's nothing that's worth sacrificing a HAC, except maybe the chance to kill another guy's HAC. Boo to that.
Reggie Stoneloader	Posted - 2006.09.18 18:58:00 - [41] Originally by: Ellaine TashMurkon If inflations gets far enough, mining low end minerals will become totally not worth miners time and this will make people buy suhttles to get tritanium en masse. An this will create the ultimate isk sink. Untill trit is below 4 isk, no need to worry about inflation :) NPC corps sell shuttles?
Ellaine TashMurkon MetaForge Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2006.09.18 19:00:00 - [42] Whining about T2 economy is gold standard, OP's proposal is original ;)
Ellaine TashMurkon MetaForge Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2006.09.18 19:02:00 - [43] Originally by: Reggie Stoneloader Originally by: Ellaine TashMurkon If inflations gets far enough, mining low end minerals will become totally not worth miners time and this will make people buy suhttles to get tritanium en masse. An this will create the ultimate isk sink. Untill trit is below 4 isk, no need to worry about inflation :) NPC corps sell shuttles? Yes
Reggie Stoneloader	Posted - 2006.09.18 19:10:00 - [44] Huh. I didn't know that. I wish they'd sell HACs. Anyway, I'm in favor of stemming the tide of isk into EvE. It's not getting us anywhere good. Replace the isk portion of mission pay, which is generally piped straight to T2 barons, with a "tip" of faction loot that can be traded to players to spread the isk around. Reduce NPC bounties, but increase the incidence of faction spawns and loot. Make people get their money from other people as a matter of course, rather than collecting it from money fountains until they have a big pile and then giving it to the rich guys.
Ellaine TashMurkon MetaForge Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2006.09.18 19:18:00 - [45] T2 barons? If You can make only one Vagabond in 1.5 day, You can make about 180m per day. Thats good, but not anything extreme, so T2 BPO owners are very rich, but 3 hardworking miners culd do the same :)
Reggie Stoneloader	Posted - 2006.09.18 19:20:00 - [46] Originally by: Ellaine TashMurkon T2 barons? If You can make only one Vagabond in 1.5 day, You can make about 180m per day. Thats good, but not anything extreme, so T2 BPO owners are very rich, but 3 hardworking miners culd do the same :) 180M/day is a lot of money, and it's supplementary income. That guy can be out mining while the Vaga bakes, or running a complex. So he's just a normal guy, except that every day somebody writes him a big check for no good reason.
Berrik Radhok GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2006.09.18 19:24:00 - [47] This is a flagrantly stupid idea. Let people make isk in their own ways. Sig removed, inappropriate content - Cortes
LC Sulla BGG Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2006.09.18 21:11:00 - [48] Originally by: Ellaine TashMurkon Edited by: Ellaine TashMurkon on 18/09/2006 19:19:16 T2 barons? If You can make only one Vagabond in 1.5 day, You can make about 180m per day. Thats good, but not anything extreme, so T2 BPO owners are very rich, but 3 hardworking miners culd do the same :) If I had a t2 BPO I would be making more than 1 every 1.5 days ;). I do believe t2 BPO's can be copied.
sb404 Caldari 3240 Inc.	Posted - 2006.09.18 21:30:00 - [49] Originally by: Reggie Stoneloader Huh. I didn't know that. I wish they'd sell HACs. I know you're being sarcastic, but in essence you're right. It would certainly regulate the market, but Eve would lose something that's dear to it, and that's a player ran economy. "Government" regulation isn't the best possible solution, although it remains the simplest one.
James Snowscoran Caldari Coreli Corporation	Posted - 2006.09.18 22:53:00 - [50] I don't think it's feasible to picture EVE without ISK. We need a form of currency, because it helps the economy work smoothly. CCP guarantees the value of the currency by maintaining fixed npc prices on starbases, starbase fuel, shuttles and strip miners. -----
Reggie Stoneloader	Posted - 2006.09.18 23:31:00 - [51] Of course you're right, the game isn't structured for a pure barter economy, and the playerbase is psychologically incompatible with it. We need isk as a way to keep score, if nothing else. But I think we could stand to create less of it, and create valuable hardware instead. Replacing high bounties with more fancy loot, and swapping out cash mission rewards for rare items would facilitate a lot more economic activity, and not all in the same direction.
Lienzo	Posted - 2006.09.19 00:24:00 - [52] I think some of you are misinformed about my motives. What seems to me like a staggering amount of work probably seems like pure laziness to some of the grinder mavens out there. 5M in an afternoon is a dedicated 1 man NPCing op for an evening for me. With a geddon. In 0.0 space. I might do this once in a busy week if I can get away from ops. The rest of the time I am blowing up several times a day in Rifters. One day I am thinking of upgrading my grinding, or perhaps simply inheriting a fortune from a mystery benefactor, and moving up to throwaway EW cruisers. Maybe. Killing off all those BS, in belts or complexes, or the end-game grind in general, is not going to make my life any easier in the current style. Nonetheless, I believe the grind should be supplanted with vulnerable infrastructure or other professions, especially player to player services. It's not a new idea. I have been posting more or less the same idea once a week for several years now. Or maybe off and on for quite a large span of interrupted months. I am kindof fickle in my attention span.
sb404 Caldari 3240 Inc.	Posted - 2006.09.19 01:15:00 - [53] Edited by: sb404 on 19/09/2006 01:26:15 Edited by: sb404 on 19/09/2006 01:25:51 Originally by: Reggie Stoneloader Of course you're right, the game isn't structured for a pure barter economy, and the playerbase is psychologically incompatible with it. We need isk as a way to keep score, if nothing else. But I think we could stand to create less of it, and create valuable hardware instead. Replacing high bounties with more fancy loot, and swapping out cash mission rewards for rare items would facilitate a lot more economic activity, and not all in the same direction. :: edited because nothing showed up :: I think you were on to something with the "mineral" backed ISK. Sort of like an option that we could find in the refining process, where you could decided to flatten or plate your minerals into ISK. There is alot of ISK being printed that has no value per say, since it was created out of air. Granted, there are alot of ISK sinks already, but maybe we're going around this the wrong way?
Lienzo	Posted - 2006.09.19 01:40:00 - [54] I think you are going around the problem rather than going to it directly. People don't NEED other people. An individual can manage a whole kiosk, do comparative buying, manufacture the product from start to finish, advertize for it, track all sales, and expand with no real lasting overhead. You don't need a salesman to handle a huge stock of largely idle and highly leveraged commodities owned by a third party. Or an process engineer to squeeze efficiency out of the system according to the convenience of a multitude of junior mangers or functionaries. All the fun parts have been streamlined out of the game, and all that is left to make up for the time is grinding-oriented time sinks. Refining - instantaneous, consistent output. Requires no third party assistance to monitor efficiency at predictable set points scattered throughout the day. Requires no build up of vulnerable assets to expand capacity. Manufacturing - occurs at a uniform level of efficiency and speed, and with only two touches of a button. For the most part highly secure. Is there a margin of efficiency to be gained in expanding the industrial base through dedicated POS? No, because it is already possible to overproduce for a regional market with only a single blueprint and partial access to a factory. Sales - Handled by an ingame broker for every single player in the game to which all have identical access and overhead. Pvp - More is better, and not more expensive generally (contemporary game culture). Pvp typically follows a grind-pvp-grind-pvp model. Contracted or mercenary pvp is pursued on a small scale for vengeance rather than to defend profit. Contracted pvp for profit is fought on the grounds of securing superior grinding privileges.
Reggie Stoneloader	Posted - 2006.09.19 10:26:00 - [55] Edited by: Reggie Stoneloader on 19/09/2006 10:27:28 When I started playing EvE, I thought it was brilliant that they had taken away the skill grind, and formalized the money grind into mining, which is inherently boring. That way, I imagined, there would be dozens of spawns to camp in every system, and people would fight over geography, which would be cool. Unfortunately, it doens't work that way, and I think battleship-sized NPCs are a big part of the problem. And I was just thinking the other day about what it would take for a system of licensed distributers to arise. A big industrial firm could build just about everything in the game, then have a dozen market-skilled characters in a subsidiary that cart lots of their product around and peddle it in various regions. Does anything like that exist in EvE today? Is it profitable?
Das Yad 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.09.19 12:00:00 - [56] bleh, stupid idea. people need bs rats not only for isk income but for secstat gain. the only time i npc is when i drop past -1.0 get it back upto something +ve or borderline 0.00 and have another flutter. removing npc bs will just make it harder for people to gain sec bac introduce more people into macrominers and carebears/hobbits will be able to stripmine that juicy crokite in hulks and tank / kill cruiser spawns no problem
Alz Shado	Posted - 2006.09.19 18:44:00 - [57] Quick, cheap, and dirty fix: Keep BS Spawns. Eliminate Bounties. The only profit would be from the loot drops.
Lienzo	Posted - 2006.09.19 21:48:00 - [58] Originally by: Das Yad bleh, stupid idea. people need bs rats not only for isk income but for secstat gain. the only time i npc is when i drop past -1.0 get it back upto something +ve or borderline 0.00 and have another flutter. removing npc bs will just make it harder for people to gain sec bac introduce more people into macrominers and carebears/hobbits will be able to stripmine that juicy crokite in hulks and tank / kill cruiser spawns no problem Rats are not required for sec status gain. They are simply the only currently operant dynamic for effecting a change in the uniform, quantity-based "security" quality system. In fact, there were once two mechanisms, but they have been reduced to a singular one that can generally only be approached by one method. If an npc-based mechanic is the only devisable schema, perhaps it would be adequate to replace the bounty on overseer's belongings and items in the category with status altering permissions. Again, even if we want a temporizing solution, security gain from a mobile should be based on the rarity or inaccessibility of that mobile, rather than the type of ship required to farm it. An example of an exclusive mobile or permission that would allow one to raise security status above -2.6 might only be found in 0.7 systems. Or a multi-faction permission might be found in a factional space one tier below what is requested. Or it could be a more risk-based dynamic. Besides, wouldn't it be better if a certain quality of relationship with an entity such as Concord gave one a mixed set of advantages and disadvantages in equal proportion? Then perhaps it would not matter so much that one had low sec if having high security was itself a burden outside of certain zones, or perhaps could disable specific npc aggression tendencies. The latter might be useful to either an RPer or a pirate who would prefer the npcs not retarget to the object orbitting it's prior target. Supposing for instance that killing any number of Angels prohibited one from using their stations. It would be impossible to go to Angel space, camp them, and then use their stations. However, a pvper that foreswore npcing in that area would have an initial operational advantage for assisting Angels. It's not perfect, but it would be a small improvement.
Zosimos Sabina Amarr Loot	Posted - 2006.09.19 21:56:00 - [59] I vote for removal of bounties, and make battleship npcs drop actual battleship mods like players. No more magical isk appearing, but stuff with real mineral value from recycling etc.

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