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Can we please have MWD in deadspaces?

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Zosimos Sabina Amarr Loot	Posted - 2006.09.17 21:57:00 - [1] TBH, I think this would greatly aid turret ships in their pve'ing compared to missiles. Keeping low transversal and optimal is pretty difficult with only an AB. You'd be able to snipe spawns finally, like a cruise Raven. I don't know how CCP intends to balance turrets v missiles for PVE, but this is a start.
Baldour Ngarr Artemis Rising	Posted - 2006.09.18 06:52:00 - [2] Being able to snipe spawns with zero risk is exactly why MWD's are not allowed in deadspace. Way too easy. You need to think of a way to stop missile-spammers from doing it, not think of a way to let turret users do it as well. ________________________________________________ "I tried strip mining, but I lost, and it's cold flying around in space naked."
Zosimos Sabina Amarr Loot	Posted - 2006.09.18 08:09:00 - [3] Edited by: Zosimos Sabina on 18/09/2006 08:11:49 Well, the other way would be for NPCs to acquire a brain and warp out if there was incoming dps on them. You'd have to fit a warp scram to mission then. I prefer to buff not nerf though - can you imagine the uproar it would create amongst mission runners? Also, you'd have to remake all the kill missions to be balanced for ships needing to scram even frigates.
Kery Nysell Caldari Nysell Incorporated	Posted - 2006.09.18 11:15:00 - [4] I use "turret ships" in missions, without an AB even, and I don't really have a problem hitting my targets ... my really slow Ferox (171 m/s) can even keep it's optimal range against almost everything (the exception being those Minmatar cruisers in the Tech Secrets mission ... but I refuse that mission to keep my standing, so not really a problem). Your tracking skills are the problem, maybe ? And quite frankly, keeping a low transversal and staying at optimal range is more important in PvP than in missions ... NPCs don't flee, they come straigth at you, no fancy maneuvering, pre-determined orbit ranges ...
Zosimos Sabina Amarr Loot	Posted - 2006.09.18 11:30:00 - [5] You misunderstand. I'm not saying it's impossible for turret users to finish a level 4 mission. But missiles and to a limited extent drones will get it done faster. I'd like some equality here. TBH, with that ferox, you should try heavy launchers and time yourself from mission start to end. I'm telling you, missiles will be faster by at minimum 1.5x. They're not balanced for PvE at all.
Irongut M'8'S	Posted - 2006.09.18 11:31:00 - [6] Originally by: Zosimos Sabina TBH, I think this would greatly aid turret ships in their pve'ing compared to missiles. Turret based ships have problems in PVE? That'll be why my Ishkur waltzed through a series of Level 3 Cosmos missions last night then? Seriously, the only need for a MWD in a deadspace is to cut the time taken to collect cans and move to the next stage.
Zosimos Sabina Amarr Loot	Posted - 2006.09.18 11:39:00 - [7] Edited by: Zosimos Sabina on 18/09/2006 11:39:55 I didn't realize a drone ship counted as a turret ship. Try again with Deimos and time yourself. Anybody with a good tank can do a mission, but to do it in a reasonable amount of time takes missiles. Do you seriously dispute that?
Sendraks	Posted - 2006.09.18 12:26:00 - [8] Originally by: Zosimos Sabina Anybody with a good tank can do a mission, but to do it in a reasonable amount of time takes missiles. Do you seriously dispute that? Can you not see how your suggestion will not improve the situation. Missile and drone ships will be able to do missions even faster than before. Plus as has already been indicated, use of MWD will trivialise missions as people will just go to range and snipe. Unless you give the enemies in missions MWDS to counteract this, in which case you have the same problem.
Zosimos Sabina Amarr Loot	Posted - 2006.09.18 12:31:00 - [9] I know it would trivialize missions. However, I would argue that for a well-skilled Raven or (to a lesser extent) Dominix pilot, missions are already trivial. Making them equally trivial for turret users was my aim. Or, we could have npcs abuse defender missiles. Would that be a better solution?
Sendraks	Posted - 2006.09.18 12:42:00 - [10] Originally by: Zosimos Sabina I know it would trivialize missions. However, I would argue that for a well-skilled Raven or (to a lesser extent) Dominix pilot, missions are already trivial. Making them equally trivial for turret users was my aim. I do see your point, but not everybody wants to fly missions in a Domi or Raven and not everyone wants missions to be "trivial." Originally by: Zosimos Sabina Or, we could have npcs abuse defender missiles. Would that be a better solution? Would help with the Ravens, but not with the Domis. The balance question here is a reall bugger I admit, but it is more to do with the fundamental structure of missions.
Hectaire Glade Imperial Shipment	Posted - 2006.09.18 14:28:00 - [11] I'll give Raven users a run for there money time-wise in my Absolution on most level 4s, MWD is not needed for turret based ships.
Pestillence Chav-Scum	Posted - 2006.09.18 15:31:00 - [12] Originally by: Irongut Originally by: Zosimos Sabina TBH, I think this would greatly aid turret ships in their pve'ing compared to missiles. Turret based ships have problems in PVE? That'll be why my Ishkur waltzed through a series of Level 3 Cosmos missions last night then? Ishkur is a drone based ship. Don't let facts get in your way though
searess	Posted - 2006.09.18 15:44:00 - [13] Not wanting to start a flame war here but !!!! Deadspace is an area of space where warp does not work hence MWD dont work their either, Your asking to change the whole mechanics of deadspace by getting MWD to work , Afterburners work not as fast as an mwd but they work. Please dont change deadspace their whole idea of warp nt working their through some phenomina is a valied point and adds to the games playability as you have to work at killing the spawns and think about how to compleate the mission....
Sendraks	Posted - 2006.09.18 15:55:00 - [14] Originally by: searess . Please dont change deadspace their whole idea of warp nt working their through some phenomina is a valied point and adds to the games playability as you have to work at killing the spawns and think about how to compleate the mission.... ....but not if you're in a Raven or Dominix. Which was the whole point of the thread, which you seem to have missed.
Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2006.09.18 16:46:00 - [15] Originally by: Baldour Ngarr Being able to snipe spawns with zero risk is exactly why MWD's are not allowed in deadspace. Way too easy. You need to think of a way to stop missile-spammers from doing it, not think of a way to let turret users do it as well. What Baldour said. I just don't see making Missions even less challenging for even more ships as being a solution to anything. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
Zosimos Sabina Amarr Loot	Posted - 2006.09.18 17:07:00 - [16] Edited by: Zosimos Sabina on 18/09/2006 17:07:45 I'm recommending it as a stop gap measure, because the Raven and its faction variants are mission running ez-mode. If they can be uber, and CCP doesn't see a problem there worth nerfing, then turret users can be uber. I don't see a missile nerf for PvE coming down the pipeline, so I want this change - what with Kali and what not coming in, it's highly unlikely mission structure will be changed for awhile, and Tuxford is unlikely to balance missiles, which are also used in PvP, for PvE. You want challenge, then use a HAC. I mission run for isk, so I can lose it pvping other people - there's my challenge. And I do lose isk. Read my bio, I'm a pirate. At any one time I have around 10-20 million in my wallet, and I lose 1-2 kitted out ships per week. Blowing up NPCs is not my idea of fun - it might be yours - if you choose to self gimp yourself, by all means, do so - but I use turrets and would like to run misssions with the speed of a Raven or Domi. I'd rather interact with people to make my isk than blow up mindless NPCs, and gunnery and armor tanking skills is what I have.
Hephaesteus Gallente	Posted - 2006.09.18 17:09:00 - [17] I love using blaster boats, but doing lvl 4 missions with only an afterburner is a major chafe. Can't we can have a balance of missions where a MWD is required to run a blockade or something and others where a MWD is not needed at all? Just a thought. ----------------------------------------------- Knowing all, when all is unknown.
Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2006.09.18 17:35:00 - [18] Edited by: Tsanse Kinske on 18/09/2006 17:38:42 Originally by: Zosimos Sabina Edited by: Zosimos Sabina on 18/09/2006 17:07:45 I'm recommending it as a stop gap measure, because the Raven and its faction variants are mission running ez-mode. If they can be uber, and CCP doesn't see a problem there worth nerfing, then turret users can be uber. I don't see a missile nerf for PvE coming down the pipeline, so I want this change - what with Kali and what not coming in, it's highly unlikely mission structure will be changed for awhile, and Tuxford is unlikely to balance missiles, which are also used in PvP, for PvE. You want challenge, then use a HAC. I mission run for isk, so I can lose it pvping other people - there's my challenge. And I do lose isk. Read my bio, I'm a pirate. At any one time I have around 10-20 million in my wallet, and I lose 1-2 kitted out ships per week. Blowing up NPCs is not my idea of fun - it might be yours - if you choose to self gimp yourself, by all means, do so - but I use turrets and would like to run misssions with the speed of a Raven or Domi. I'd rather interact with people to make my isk than blow up mindless NPCs, and gunnery and armor tanking skills is what I have. It would be one thing if people saying L4s were really challenging in everything but Ravens. Most people don't say that. Now if you feel you just have to have the extra efficiency of a Raven in missions...train Raven maybe? You might decide that's not worth it from a time and effort standpoint, but the game does give you that option, as well as others. As everybody is fond of saying, that's EVE--adapt, endure, or die. And while I'm currently trying to fund my pirating with mission running the same as you, I personally hope that the devs do look at missions as being more than an isk grind for PvP, and when it comes to developing mission content and mechanics that they pay the most attention to the people who actually care about it. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
Zosimos Sabina Amarr Loot	Posted - 2006.09.18 17:40:00 - [19] Edited by: Zosimos Sabina on 18/09/2006 17:42:29 You don't think it's a problem that the Raven + missiles is the premier mission running ship? That the other 3 races don't have the right to be as efficient as the Raven? What if I told you tomorrow that I was going to nerf blasters by 25% damage? Just because it would be racial variety for one race's guns to suck. You'd say, no, that's arbitrary, and why should my favorite race suck 25% more than missiles just because? You see the problem with missiles being so uber for pve? They are above and beyond any other gun type. It's not balanced. It should be fixed. If you're not using missiles on a Raven, you've got a humongous, disproportionate opportunity cost in isk/hour not made. There's no reason for this - not like missiles have some sort of incredible disadvantage that warrents their superiority. Missiles will still be faster, even if they allow MWD in deadspace, but at least it closes the gap. Then you could fly an speedy artillery setup with damage mods.
Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2006.09.18 18:01:00 - [20] All I can say is that it's a degree of imbalance that I can live with happily. I almost wouldn't call it a real imbalance anyway, since I would never give up the advantages my turret ships have pirating in order to be faster mission running. YMMV, obviously. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
aethyl Minmatar Dawnwalkers	Posted - 2006.09.18 19:40:00 - [21] The main problem I see with missions is the drone agro bug so many of them have. I can fly all 4 races bs's and the main advantage of the raven is the fact that it doesn't need drones to do its damage. Typhoon, domini, and geddon all are nice ships for missions and they all fly through missions as long as you have free reign with drones. I did gallente vengence in my typhoon last night it took 22 minutes for the first gate and 34 minutes to do the rest. The first gate took so long because i always agro everything with my drones unless i clear most of it first. I have t2 mediums and t1 heavies drones and no t2 weapons in high. I think tiller said he did it 36 minutes in his all t2 and faction raven so I don't think my time is too bad really.
Ezra Gallente Calista Industries	Posted - 2006.09.18 22:06:00 - [22] Originally by: Sendraks Originally by: Zosimos Sabina Anybody with a good tank can do a mission, but to do it in a reasonable amount of time takes missiles. Do you seriously dispute that? Can you not see how your suggestion will not improve the situation. Missile and drone ships will be able to do missions even faster than before. Plus as has already been indicated, use of MWD will trivialise missions as people will just go to range and snipe. Unless you give the enemies in missions MWDS to counteract this, in which case you have the same problem. Um, there are plenty of enemies in mission (and non-mission complex) deadspace areas that MWD. Try doing any mission with spider drones. Or there's a particular L3 mission (I forget the name, but the objective is to destroy a Serpentis convoy) with three interceptors that MWD to you. There are also the Serpentis Data Sentinels in the Serpentis Survey Site, part of the Gallente Skeleton Comet complex in Deltole. All of these rats can MWD, why can't we? Either allow players to MWD in missions, or give NPCs the same restrictions we have in deadspace. ------------ Ezra Cornell pe0n, Calista Industries
Skaxx Minmatar Zig-Zag	Posted - 2006.09.18 23:23:00 - [23] "If" mwd's were allowed in deadspace the next whine on the forums would be in the pirate forum as people would get scanned down then have interceptors warp into their pocket and lock them down and kill them. Caldari ships are the mission kings where as the other races excel much better in other areas of the game. Will the game ever be balanced? I have played many mmorpgs and they cannot balance without making everything cookie cutter copies of each other with different images. It would make for a very bland game in my opinion.
Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2006.09.19 00:43:00 - [24] Originally by: Ezra All of these rats can MWD, why can't we? Either allow players to MWD in missions, or give NPCs the same restrictions we have in deadspace. Because CCP has favored NPCs from the very beginning. Rats get deadspace MWDs, perfectly fitted ships, and loadouts and tactics so devilishly clever and unpredictable that no player stands a chance against them. So you may as well give up--players are nothing more than an afterhought for CCP. We're anachronisms...evolutionary deadends. In Kali, it's no longer going to be about PvP or PvE at all--all the real action is going to happen EvE. You didn't think the game was called EVE for some other reason, did you? * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
Zosimos Sabina Amarr Loot	Posted - 2006.09.19 01:39:00 - [25] Edited by: Zosimos Sabina on 19/09/2006 01:43:29 Gist of player responses I'm getting now is: it's ok for missiles to be uber at PvE, we like large efficiency imbalances in ship weapons because it brings variety. I'll take Megapulses and Radio Ammo for $200, Alex... I hope the Dev's don't share the same attitude. I'm not asking for my turret ships to get 8 missile hardpoints. I would like to MWD in deadspaces though so I can use start using long range turrets with damage mods. No matter what you do, you are not going to truly balance missiles for PVE until you start requiring a warp scram to be able to lock down mission ships. Not going to happen tbh. I can't really think of anything that would really handicap missile users besides adding defender missile spewing launchers to everything, but that would be lame. I don't want to nerf, just buff.
Sebmagic Caldari In Articulo Mortis	Posted - 2006.09.19 07:33:00 - [26] Zosimos Sabina, you're asking for your favorite ship to be usable in Deadspace and missions. By the same occasions, you want every ships to have the same potential in PvE. Do you actually want missiles to become insta-hit weapons ? cause that's one of the majof drawback of missiles. They have their use in PvE and have to be worked around to be used in PvP... It's always a matter of choices. If ships get to MWD in Deadspace, it will simply become a running game where snipers go above the npcs shooting range and simply stump on the poor little npcs..... it ain't no fun... I sure hope this was a joke and that you've already taken into account the reason weapon systems are different. Did you ?
Fliewatuet Angelus dos Business	Posted - 2006.09.19 09:23:00 - [27] Hm, noone ever mentioned blasterboats in this thread. :-( I want to fly my blasterthron into a mission. Currently, its just stupid to fly after each bs seperatly and trying to catch it over a distance of around 35-50km and repeat it with the next bs - i'm way faster with 425mm rails. On the other hand, flying a blasterboat is way more fun than just sitting around and shooting... and its the same with the deimos. :-( Regards, Fliewatuet -- NPC infos? Calculating DPS for a mission? Have a look at http://eve.neodoomer.de/npc/ and have fun.
Hephaesteus Gallente	Posted - 2006.09.19 09:48:00 - [28] Why not have a restriction on battleships MWD'ing in deadspace. Say it is because of their mass or some other suspect physics thing, but allow any smaller ship the option. IMHO this would be great for hacs and in particular blaster boats to be used in missions and still keep a balance as regards battleships sniping in deadspace. ----------------------------------------------- Knowing all, when all is unknown.
Kery Nysell Caldari Nysell Incorporated	Posted - 2006.09.19 09:53:00 - [29] Zosimos Sabina ... you know that missile ships are actually better at CLOSE range, because of that missile flight time ? Yes, you can snipe missions with a cruise Raven, but that will take MORE time than getting close and spamming missiles, the closer you are the less time you "lose" waiting for your missiles to travel to your target ... And don't get me started on the Defenders the NPCs use, THEY can one-hit a Cruise missile, where we players need 2 to 4 Defenders to block a single Cruise ... I've had NPCs kill off whole salvoes of my Raven with those Defenders, quite annoying when you have a rate of fire of 10 seconds AND a flight time of 40 seconds ... "WOW ! Kewl ! I just spent a minute watching my missiles fly in space, and they got destroyed before connecting !" ... Before the "missile nerf", Missiles WERE nber, but now we need a metric ton of skills to get back to what we had before (mostly), and Missiles still suffer from a few unique problems (flight time, NPC Defenders). Honestly, I think you never used Missiles, and just want your favorite toy to be buffed so you can be nber in every situation ... not gonna happen.
Zosimos Sabina Amarr Loot	Posted - 2006.09.19 13:40:00 - [30] Edited by: Zosimos Sabina on 19/09/2006 13:48:03 :/ Do you pvp a lot? Missile flight time is a nonissue in missions once you know how many volleys it takes to pop a npc ship. NPC ships don't warp out. As for PVP, Missiles are a superior weapon system due to their tech 2 ammo being able to easily hit the next ship class below without a web. Granted, you won't snipe from 200km... but I'd like to know who in this thread honestly spends the majority of their pvp time in blob fights. In small gangs Caldari ships are always welcome because they can fit a full rack of ECM in their mids along with dps support. Personally, I feel, regardless, that pvp performance is irrelevant to discussing their performance in pve. One does not justify the other anyway. The time to complete deadspace missions with missiles is usually around 1.5x - 2x the same with a comparable turret ship. This is due to the large distances between enemy pockets, the ability of cruises to do good dps to both bs's, cruisers, and still kill frigates. and the ability of the raven to fit a glorious tank since you don't need tackling gear. I don't believe this is balanced, when one ship class and weapon system - raven + missiles - is so uber for PvE, you're gimping yourself isk-wise when you do something else. Why should we settle for non-balance in PvE?

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