Can you at least admit you are not interested in nerfing AFK cloaking but ATK cloaking then and that your problem is not AFK cloaking but just cloaks in general. And that your entire post is actually...off topic. You do know what AFK means, right? Away From Keyboard in case you don't know. Pray tell, how does a player away from keyboard "scan for your"?



Yes, we know players like you do not want to give up the safety of local. Oh, what? You are upset I chopped off the rest of your post and misrepresented your views? How about you be honest and just say, "I don't like cloaking" and then go away.

I would amend your statement to say that nothing undocked in the game should be so powerful that it cannot die as perfect invulnerability while docked up is something we have all come to expect. Cloaking is essentially docking in that there is nothing you can do (other than spam D-scan and scan?) to interact with the other players or the environment while cloaked.

Removing the risk of a hot drop by nerfing the ability to light a cyno also removes the threat value of using AFK cloaking to disrupt your opponents income. That is not really a fix to the problem as CCP sees it as the whole reason they haven't touched the mechanic for so long is so that it is can be used to disrupt other player's activities.

WoW and other MMO Arenas ----> that way!

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=491023&find=unread

I'll quote the post:

"Unfair circumstances?

* There is no such thing as "a fair fight" or "an unfair fight". There's only a fight. Circumstances are irrelevant.
* Just because you can fly something doesn't mean you should. "

You can play however you want. That is the nature of EVE. But that means that if some other player(s) want to play that entails interacting with youGǪyou cannot stop that. So sure, go play however you want, but if I decide I want to come along and shoot you. I can, and you canGÇÖt stop me. That is the nature of EVE.

As for fair/unfair fights, the point is that such a concept just does not exist in the game. The developer was not telling anyone how to play the game, but was describing the nature of the game. The nature of the game is a sandboxGÇöi.e. a game that is based on the concepts of emergence and spontaneous order. I would be willing to bet that many of the ways the game is played was not even anticipated by the developers. So all your stuff using set theory is just irrelevant.

Now, if you donGÇÖt like this you have two options. Learn to like it or quit.

BTW, for examples of game play that probably was not anticipated, go look at the youtube videos of Rooks & Kings.

The problem is Beeflee is is loss averse. Such players see losses as far worse than an equivalent gain. These are the kinds of players, IMO, that are going to want to remove things that can cause such losses. Things like cynos, and cloaks.

A risk averse player on the other hand merely seeks to avoid risk to the extent it is cost effective to do so. If you rat in a standing fleet, on comms, maybe with a PvP ship or cyno fit...you are risk averse. You have mitigated your risk.

Beeflee also does not seem to grasp the concept of "the sandbox". Yes you can go into the sandbox and play however you want, but it is a sandbox with others in it too and they might decide they'll knock down your sand castle or cave in their tunnels, or throw you in the hole you just dug. Or they might help you build a castle, dig some tunnels, etc.

how can HTs know exactly what your capabilites are?

you are too scared of the 'boogeyman' forgeting that you can be monsters too.

it's all in the mind, if you could just grow a pair, you won't whine like this really.

10 or 20 vs 1 is a very good fight for me with this tears alone. :)

how can an AFK cloaker do all those 'horrible' things you accuse him of if his AFK, as i Away From Keyboard?!

dude you're too old to be scared of the boogeyman, grow some, would you?

Link me a killmail of someone who was killed by someone AFK and cloaked.

So your problem is that your 100% accurate, always up to date Intel is only 99% accurate and the chance you MIGHT lose your ship is too much, so it has to go, so you can have your 100% accurate Intel back?

No counter? Local is the counter. It tells you they are there and after a bit of work that they are almost surely cloaked. You can then take the appropriate measures in response.

Not everything requires a hard counter.

Newsflash: Nullsec is not supposed to be safe. You aren't supposed to be able to just AFK-farm your wallet fat.

Yes, because it happens in other contexts too.

If I set up buy and sell orders I have an impact even when I am AFK.

If I set up my skiff in a HS belt and go AFK for several minutes I am having an effect while AFK.

If I sit in a station in HS during a wardec I am having an effect even though I might be AFK.

If I sit in a station in NPC space I will have an effect on anyone else in system even if I am AFK.

I'm sure many thought the same thing who fell victim to Carlos Hathcock.

And even in the case of a AFK cloaked ship local can let you reduce your risk considerably. Local tells you he is there and in conjunction with d-scan and/or probes you can come to a pretty accurate conclusion that he is cloaked and quite possibly AFK. If you don't have the standing fleet, etc....then move one system over.

Market trading is PvP. Perfect example given above.
Hauling is PvP. If you're buying goods in Jita and hauling them elsewhere, you're impacting the local market and forcing folks to either lower prices or move their goods elsewhere to sell.
Mining is PvP. The amount of ore you extract impacts the market, either directly by selling it or indirectly by reducing demand. And don't forget the actual direct competition you see when things get crowded like hisec ice belts.

Literally every activity in EvE is PvP.

Even sitting AFK cloaked in an undocked ship 23/7.

Problem in game play: Local intel is absolute and instant, informing anyone in system that someone has arrived before the person even is able to load the environment.

Solution: delay local for 1~5 minutes.

Re-read the last paragraph of my last post and then go have a long and hard think.

If you want to do anything to cloaks because of AFK cloaking, then you must do something about local.

Local is why people AFK cloak. No local, no AFK cloaking (aside from bio breaks, getting another drink, answering the phone, etc.). No local then AFK cloaking has no effect on other players at all. It cannot have an effect because the other players would never know the cloaked player is there.

So, it seems CCP recognizes this and it seems that they will be eventually removing local and giving players the Observatory Array via which they can reclaim their intelligence system. But now it has a cost and it is vulnerable. And, it will almost surely offer a way to find cloaked ships, provided you sacrifice some other aspect of intel gathering.

How do you catch people when they can see you coming and know exactly what you are in from 30+ jumps away? It not a case of being good at the game or not, no amount of skill will let you get around local.

We are in more danger.

When I go into braves home system I will be outnumbered anything up to 200 to 1, they can have an entire fleet on top of my solo bomber in seconds.

They are random, require a probe launcher and you get spotted the instant you pop out of one. Doesn't change the fact that if I go roaming in a megathron the drone regions will have upwards of 30 minutes warning I'm on the way.

WH players manage.

You dock when I enter system or enter a POS. Cloaking give me a little less safety than that so it evens the playground and allows me to operate in enemy space for extended periods of time.


Yet you are fine with docking in stations and the use of local intell channels gifting people 100% safety.

Tell me how is afk cloaky powerful play?
You can't gain information or isk in any way afk cloaked.

See it like sitting in a station but with slightly increased risk someone might decloak you by chance

If you stay afk cloaked in system for 1 day you might also log off.

You would also have the same issue if a corp 200 in size would bring one after a noter in over days and sit a a station.
Or log off in a safe spot.
After wanting. X amount of days they all undock/log in.
Congratulation you managed to do the same without cloaks.

By nature of the fact that they are AFK, they cannot employ any game mechanics to harm anyone. The only impact that they have is based purely on the reaction of pilots who have their illusion of safety shattered by a non-friendly in local.

Beeflee,

You don't have any valid points. That is your problem. Local is the source of AFK cloaking. To fix AFK cloaking you must address local. Given these are big changes CCP is taking their time. In the mean time there are ways to deal with AFK cloaking and I still contend the current status quo is balanced if sub-optimal.

[quote=Beeflee Filee][quote=Teckos Pech]

Is AFK cloaking bad game play? Yes.
Are AFK cloaking and local balanced? Yes.
Would we be better off with a change? That is not so obvious.

It is not obvious because while the status quo is balanced yet sub-optimal a change could be unbalanced. In fact, it is most likely the case that most changes are unbalanced. For example, the vast majority of changes suggested effect cloaks across the board and leave local untouched. This basically nerfs the game for active cloakers...the very target you are trying NOT to nerf. It is like using a shotgun when you need a scalpel.

Why do you think there is a whine thread currently about cynos? Because people rat in carriers with a cyno fit. They get dropped, they bleat for help on voice comms and when help is ready...in jump 10 carriers, 30 subcaps and 5 supers. Goons in particular are good at this. And in fact, not too long ago there was a post to make anomalies cyno-jammed--i.e. if you are in an anomaly your cyno won't work. This was clearly aimed at people fitting a cyno to their ships to counter drop.

Here is the thing...read the EULA.

I could, in theory, set up with third party software to log me off before whatever arbitrary time limit you set without violating the EULA. I'd merely point out that logging off ensures I gain no SP, ISK or other resources at an accelerated rate. So unless the EULA is also changed on top of it, we'd be right back here with people whining about AFK cloakers camping their systems for X hours per day.

And fuel is right out. Fuel is an automatic nerf to ATK cloakers. And funny how you don't see these things as nerfs.

How about this, your suggestion is implemented but from now on the only way YOU can make ISK in game is via some sort of activity where a cloak is necessary. No more ratting, missions, mining, invention, building? Nothing except activities where a cloak is needed? Deal?

Oh yeah, and skill extractors won't work for you either. You only get to make ISK via using a cloaking ship or you start over from scratch.

you're right as i started eve i hade a lot to struggle about while playing trial.
"should i really by game time? with all this afk cloakys in the game?"
"what if a cloaky decided to be not afk anymore?"
"how can i avoid getting hot dropped on my shine t1 frig with best named fitting?"
"why do afk players go afk?"

this are the questions new players have if they start with eve
just check out newbie chats and threads cyonos and afk post all over the place

You appear to have completely missed my point and IGÇÖm not sure why you had to have such a long and convoluted response. My point is simple. If we impose a time limit on cloaksGÇöe.g. after 8 hours of continuous cloaking your cloak deactivates due to *reasons*, then a player could, in theory, use software to log him off at say 7.5 hours. Now youGÇÖll have people AFK cloaking for 7.5 hours and weGÇÖll still have the incessant whining.

So why not just wait for the complete revamp to how NS intel works and we get rid of AFK cloaking in its entirety?

As for the current situation there are ways to deal with an AFK cloaker. Here is a GÇ£storyGÇ¥ on how you can do it.

The typical complaint is GÇ£We canGÇÖt counter drop them because we have to have a fleet ready to drop 24/7!GÇ¥ My response is, fair enough but why not do the following:

Take that standby fleet and go burn down a sanctum while waiting for those bad guys to drop you. If they donGÇÖtGǪburn down another. Then another. Keep going and then do the havens. If you donGÇÖt have sanctums or havens respawning in that system move next door and burn down the sanctums and havens there. My guess is it will go quite fast. And the faster you burn down havens and sanctums in a number of systems the more escalations youGÇÖll get. So while waiting for these guys to drop on you, you make ISK. Maybe even lots of ISK.

So what if they donGÇÖt go away? You are keeping your ADMs up, you are getting ISK, you are using your space. Presumably you are having funGǪand on comms together and talking and being social vs. everyone siloGÇÖd up in their own haven or sanctum. Looks to me like you GÇ£wonGÇ¥. Take your cake and enjoy it.

I disagree. You are ignoring the part about being silo'd up. The standard way people rat and so forth in NS is to not be on comms, not interact with others, and play the game as if it were a stand alone game with nobody else in it. Now, maybe that is fun for some people, but I would argue that the alternative is more enjoyable to most people.

Why should my gameplay be limited while yours is not?


Simple, those that die are not using it.

Local does make you 100% safe, for example I lost no ratting ships in 6 years of ratting in delve. The vast bulk of ratting ships that are lost are AFK ships, the only way to catch almost all of the active ratters is to AFK camp the system as that is the only counter to region wide intel systems based upon local chat.

If you use local you will not die while ratting, unless you have bad luck (a rat scrams you at just the wrong moment).

If you are not using local (i.e. look away from local) then you can be killed.

The point is, people usually die while ratting due to inattentiveness--e.g. the guy was ratting while watching Game of Thrones on a second monitor.

That destroys my u-boat gameplay. I enjoy hunting around for a week at a time in capital systems outnumbered hundreds to one. Why should my gameplay be removed just so you can rat in peace?

You are terribly certain of this. Have you tried it from the other side?
Maybe there are ships that can take 2-3 gates before a ship can complete a warp to station, sure, but absolutely zero that catch an aligned ratting carrier that is paying attention. The moment you enter local, even in an interceptor with full ascendancy implants, even if you knew exactly where the carrier was before entering system, the carrier has to try to be negligent enough to get caught - all it has to do is hit warp and it is 100% safe. Maybe you set up a drag bubble, maybe you had some other devious plan, but failing that, you aren't catching aligned things. That's how safe ratting is. Same goes for every other ratting ship out there - if you are aligned, you are incredibly hard to catch. It's really a shame how few rats point and scram - there is just no risk in null, at least none that cannot be easily mitigated.

I go solo hunting in a bomber, try again.

Gonna have to call you out on this now. If you are running around having an easy time getting kills then you are going to have to back it up with evidence.

So you basically AWOX. So you get around local by appearing blue.

Not if you are using an alt who is either blue or docked in station and red.

Nullsec is the safest space in this game, but apparently it's not safe enough for you? if highsec is so profitable, why don't you go there for your isk? Afraid of neutrals that might touch you there too?

We only have cloaky camping to deal with the local problem. Without instant free intel in the form of local, cloaky camping would not be required.

Reading a badly formatted wall of text with plenty of spelling errors in it isn't something that I enjoy. I only skimmed through your post without reading it in full detail.

Your idea isn't new. It has come up hundreds of times over the years and it would fix the "problem", but it would do so by forcing players to actually do something for their intel.
Read the responses of all these whiny carebears and you'll understand why that's no solution they would accept. The only goal they have is 100% risk-free space and they won't stop crying until they get exactly that.

Oh and just a disclaimer.

I have seen both sides of the coin. I have dealt with cloaky campers and I have done cloaky camping myself (though never afk. Stalked a target for a few hours every now and then and watched his every move until we sprang the trap, but that's about it).

AFK cloaking a system for days or weeks on-end is a lame tactic that I do not endorse, but I'm also smart enough (unlike the likes of Dracvlad) to understand why it has come to this state.

AFK cloaking is a scumback activity, yeah, but as it stands it's the only course of action that hotdroppers have to counter all those intel networks.

So can buy and sell orders and you don't even have to be logged in for those...

Oh, and they probably affect far more players. Every player after all interacts to some degree with the economy.

Edit:



Same with 0.01 ISK price changes. Those should be banned too. In fact, once I put a sell order everyone else should be banned from making a price change! After all it negatively affects my game.

You object to "AFK Play that effects countless players" why do buy and sell orders not qualify? Buy and sell orders will work if you are AFK, and it effects "countless" players. So if AFK cloaking is bad, why is AFK market activity not bad?

I am pointing out the following:

You have set for some criteria as for why AFK cloaking is "bad". I am pointing out another in game activity that has the same criteria, so why is it not "bad" too.

Others have pointed out that it takes something that gives a distinct advantage to a group of players and turns it against them.

So it seems to me your reason for AFK cloaking being bad is itself bad.

And it starts again...from a same point...
"Afk cloaker does not affect the game because he is afk" - have ever tried to thing something more far than point of your lazy ass?

Try to guess what is the difference between AFK cloaker and cloaker that he is not AFK;
Im really curious about your answer at that simple question.