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Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
15802
   |
Posted - 2016.01.16 16:02:21 -
[5731] - Quote
Jerghul wrote:
Changing cloak mechanics is to limit the effects of afk cloaky camping on a number of players far larger than those that habitually use cloaked ships.
Yeah, buffing their safety. Which is in and of itself completely unacceptable, even if the rest of your arguments weren't deeply flawed, which they are.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
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Jerghul
Running with Dogs
Stella Nova
7
|
Posted - 2016.01.16 17:24:11 -
[5732] - Quote
Kaarous
It may not in fact be completely unacceptable. Null-sec mining and ratting is a pretty marginal thing that may need a buff.
I think a mechanism that causes people to think "meh", then log off is a bad mechanism. But prefer the workaround a monthly stipend from Concord. It lessens the off-peak need to rat/mine to fund peak time pvp activity. So may in fact lead to a greater pvp emphasis in offpeak times (roam instead of rat).
" We have been doing a lot of challenging old assumptions of late, and often with delightful results. Just because something is doesn't mean it should be..."
-Team Game Of Drones (Dec 2015)
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Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
15802
|
Posted - 2016.01.16 17:25:41 -
[5733] - Quote
Jerghul wrote:
It may not in fact be completely unacceptable.
In fact, it is. Nullsec is not supposed to be safe.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|
Jerghul
Running with Dogs
Stella Nova
7
|
Posted - 2016.01.16 17:31:56 -
[5734] - Quote
Nothing is safe when undocked anywhere in EvE except afk cloaky camping (even ATK cloaked camping has an implicit risk of misguided pvp).
" We have been doing a lot of challenging old assumptions of late, and often with delightful results. Just because something is doesn't mean it should be..."
-Team Game Of Drones (Dec 2015)
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Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
15803
|
Posted - 2016.01.16 17:49:22 -
[5735] - Quote
Jerghul wrote:Nothing is safe when undocked anywhere in EvE except afk cloaky camping
Wrong.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|
Jerghul
Running with Dogs
Stella Nova
7
|
Posted - 2016.01.16 18:00:28 -
[5736] - Quote
No, you are wrong.
And you need a hug: *Huggles*.
" We have been doing a lot of challenging old assumptions of late, and often with delightful results. Just because something is doesn't mean it should be..."
-Team Game Of Drones (Dec 2015)
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Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
15803
|
Posted - 2016.01.16 18:02:43 -
[5737] - Quote
Jerghul wrote:No, you are wrong.
I'm not the one claiming cloaking devices are invincible.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|
Morrigan LeSante
Senex Legio
The OSS
1093
|
Posted - 2016.01.16 18:07:07 -
[5738] - Quote
Jerghul wrote: Null-sec mining and ratting is a pretty marginal thing that may need a buff.
The presentation by CCP Quant at Vegas tells a different story of ratting, but don't let facts get in the way of a good tall tale.
And again, a net in local isnt the end of the world. I'm in a carrier right now, blapping rats with 3 neutrals in local. |
Jerghul
Running with Dogs
Stella Nova
7
|
Posted - 2016.01.16 18:36:10 -
[5739] - Quote
Karous
Nothing is safe in EvE undocked save AFK cloaky camping. Even ATK cloaky camping has some implicit risk.
Morrigan
Exactly the presentation I am referring to. He posted it as a devblog too, so you can review the hardcopy if you like.
" We have been doing a lot of challenging old assumptions of late, and often with delightful results. Just because something is doesn't mean it should be..."
-Team Game Of Drones (Dec 2015)
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Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
15805
|
Posted - 2016.01.16 18:50:30 -
[5740] - Quote
Jerghul wrote:
Nothing is safe in EvE undocked save AFK cloaky camping.
Repeating yourself doesn't make you any less wrong. Something you and Mike really ought to learn.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|
Jerghul
Running with Dogs
Stella Nova
7
|
Posted - 2016.01.16 18:58:29 -
[5741] - Quote
Karous
Repeating yourself does not make you any less wrong.
" We have been doing a lot of challenging old assumptions of late, and often with delightful results. Just because something is doesn't mean it should be..."
-Team Game Of Drones (Dec 2015)
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Teckos Pech
The Executives
Executive Outcomes
4397
|
Posted - 2016.01.16 20:36:59 -
[5742] - Quote
Morrigan LeSante wrote:Jerghul wrote: Null-sec mining and ratting is a pretty marginal thing that may need a buff. The presentation by CCP Quant at Vegas tells a different story of ratting, but don't let facts get in the way of a good tall tale. And again, a neut in local isnt the end of the world. I'm in a carrier right now, blapping rats with 3 neutrals in local.
Was just going to point this out. Rat bounties bring in about 1 trillion ISK/day and that is not counting incursions. Mission bounties are pretty low, in fact the best way to make ISK with missions is to blitz them to speed up the acquistion LP....so the bulk of that ISK is from NS ratting.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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Jerghul
Running with Dogs
Stella Nova
7
|
Posted - 2016.01.16 22:12:48 -
[5743] - Quote
Summer of Sov focused heavily on upgrading mining and ratting in null sec. For good reason.
Bounties for combat missions are ~10 times the mission rewards.
High sec and low sec combat anoms.
High sec and low sec belt rats.
The limiting factor to high sec anom running is site availability amazingly. Not enough sites for the players that want to run them.
" We have been doing a lot of challenging old assumptions of late, and often with delightful results. Just because something is doesn't mean it should be..."
-Team Game Of Drones (Dec 2015)
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Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
1116
|
Posted - 2016.01.17 01:10:00 -
[5744] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Jerghul wrote:No, you are wrong.
I'm not the one claiming cloaking devices are invincible.
Still waiting on that method for hunting a cloaked ship in system.... |
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
15805
|
Posted - 2016.01.17 01:16:10 -
[5745] - Quote
Mike Voidstar wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Jerghul wrote:No, you are wrong.
I'm not the one claiming cloaking devices are invincible. Still waiting on that method for hunting a cloaked ship in system....
I'm still waiting for any proof at all of your ludicrous claims. Cloaked ships die all the time, you can look at the killboards for that.
But if you're too dumb to figure out how to bait out a cloaker in your system, you honestly don't belong in nullsec, or EVE Online for that matter.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|
Morrigan LeSante
Senex Legio
The OSS
1095
|
Posted - 2016.01.17 01:33:32 -
[5746] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Morrigan LeSante wrote:Jerghul wrote: Null-sec mining and ratting is a pretty marginal thing that may need a buff. The presentation by CCP Quant at Vegas tells a different story of ratting, but don't let facts get in the way of a good tall tale. And again, a neut in local isnt the end of the world. I'm in a carrier right now, blapping rats with 3 neutrals in local. Was just going to point this out. Rat bounties bring in about 1 trillion ISK/day and that is not counting incursions. Mission bounties are pretty low, in fact the best way to make ISK with missions is to blitz them to speed up the acquistion LP....so the bulk of that ISK is from NS ratting.
Correct. This can be fairly easily be deduced by examining the mission reward vs bounties. The best level 4 bounties for a 100% full clear are ~30m. Most are in the order of 4-12m. Rewards a fraction thereof.
Thus looking at the data, either non highsec ratting is off the charts or Quant is mistaken.
My isk is on the statistician being accurate.
_________
So tell me again why these people won't undock an ishtar with a neut in local but I'll put carriers on the line with multiple neuts there....... |
Morrigan LeSante
Senex Legio
The OSS
1095
|
Posted - 2016.01.17 01:35:27 -
[5747] - Quote
Morrigan LeSante wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Morrigan LeSante wrote:Jerghul wrote: Null-sec mining and ratting is a pretty marginal thing that may need a buff. The presentation by CCP Quant at Vegas tells a different story of ratting, but don't let facts get in the way of a good tall tale. And again, a neut in local isnt the end of the world. I'm in a carrier right now, blapping rats with 3 neutrals in local. Was just going to point this out. Rat bounties bring in about 1 trillion ISK/day and that is not counting incursions. Mission bounties are pretty low, in fact the best way to make ISK with missions is to blitz them to speed up the acquistion LP....so the bulk of that ISK is from NS ratting. Correct. This can be fairly easily be deduced by examining the mission reward vs bounties. The best level 4 bounties for a 100% full clear are ~30m. Most are in the order of 4-12m. Rewards a fraction thereof. Thus looking at the data, either non highsec ratting is off the charts or Quant is mistaken. My isk is on the statistician being accurate. _________ So tell me again why these people won't undock an ishtar with a neut in local but I'll put carriers on the line with multiple neuts there.......
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Teckos Pech
The Executives
Executive Outcomes
4398
|
Posted - 2016.01.17 06:01:17 -
[5748] - Quote
Morrigan LeSante wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Morrigan LeSante wrote:Jerghul wrote: Null-sec mining and ratting is a pretty marginal thing that may need a buff. The presentation by CCP Quant at Vegas tells a different story of ratting, but don't let facts get in the way of a good tall tale. And again, a neut in local isnt the end of the world. I'm in a carrier right now, blapping rats with 3 neutrals in local. Was just going to point this out. Rat bounties bring in about 1 trillion ISK/day and that is not counting incursions. Mission bounties are pretty low, in fact the best way to make ISK with missions is to blitz them to speed up the acquistion LP....so the bulk of that ISK is from NS ratting. Correct. This can be fairly easily be deduced by examining the mission reward vs bounties. The best level 4 bounties for a 100% full clear are ~30m. Most are in the order of 4-12m. Rewards a fraction thereof. Thus looking at the data, either non highsec ratting is off the charts or Quant is mistaken. My isk is on the statistician being accurate. _________ So tell me again why these people won't undock an ishtar with a neut in local but I'll put carriers on the line with multiple neuts there.......
Also, in looking at the charts CCP Quant provided he does break out mission rewards and bonuses as well and they are pretty small. Sure the rat bounties are larger, but lets go with Jerghul's claim that combat mission bounties are 10x mission rewards and lets further assume all mission rewards that CCP Quant reported are kill missions, and lets add the mission rewards and bonuses together.
We would have to conclude that out of the 31.327 trillion ISK/month from rat bounties 2/3rds of that are from missions. Considering that in NS there are systems where over 30,000 rats are killed in a 24 hour period I find that ludicrious. That one system alone, assuming an average rate bounty of 250,000 would result in 5.4 trillion ISK for a 30 day period. Considering that is not the only system people in NS rat in and that not everyone in HS is running level 4 missions, that the bulk of that 31.3 trillion ISK/day from rat bounties is from NS.
Further, the amount of ISK sunk via LP is 3x the amount of ISK from mission rewards and bonuses. I'm guessing that pro HS lvl 4 mission runners are blitzing the missions for the LP and not the rat bounties.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Jerghul
Running with Dogs
Stella Nova
7
|
Posted - 2016.01.17 10:54:26 -
[5749] - Quote
Karous
I am still waiting for proof for your ludicrous claims, but in the mean time, here is a hug: *Huggles*
Teckos
Something in the region 1/3 of isk brought into game is through null sec bounties.
But lets be systematic. You are not disputing that mining in null-sec in incredibly marginal. So even in your mind the statement would be half-right.
So lets say that ratting in nullsec contributes to increasing EvE's 883 000 000 000 000 M4 by say 350 000 000 000 per day.
Or compare that 350 billion to 14 trillion goods traded each day.
Or compare it to the 350 billion to the 2.3 trillion final goods produced each day.
Or compare 350 billion to that 900 billion goods destroyed every day.
Yah, null-sec ratting is pretty marginal and could use any buff nerfing afk cloaky camping gives.
" We have been doing a lot of challenging old assumptions of late, and often with delightful results. Just because something is doesn't mean it should be..."
-Team Game Of Drones (Dec 2015)
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Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
15807
|
Posted - 2016.01.17 12:01:22 -
[5750] - Quote
Jerghul wrote:
I am still waiting for proof for your ludicrous claims
You've had them already. Cloaked ships die, in fact they're all over the killboards.
You claim they are invincible. They very obviously are not.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|
Jerghul
Running with Dogs
Stella Nova
7
|
Posted - 2016.01.17 14:15:01 -
[5751] - Quote
I am awaiting proof on the ludicrous and pathological claims that afk cloaky campers die, and that I claim cloaks in general are invincible.
" We have been doing a lot of challenging old assumptions of late, and often with delightful results. Just because something is doesn't mean it should be..."
-Team Game Of Drones (Dec 2015)
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Randal Ganes
Weiland-Yutani corp
Coalition of the Unfortunate
0
|
Posted - 2016.01.17 15:43:36 -
[5752] - Quote
Been cloaky now for about 48h. AFK now and then . Only 1 kill though allmost 2. But that doesnt matter.
But as i choose the fights, have scanned the sig's i feel more than safe in the system.
Only fight i had to give up was a fight with 1 BS, 1 BC and 1 Navy cruiser. it was fun though.
Now my mixed cloaking will continue. i have to defend those sites.  |
ISD Decoy
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
1587
|
Posted - 2016.01.17 15:51:50 -
[5753] - Quote
I have removed a double post.
Friendly reminders...
Quote:2. Be respectful toward others at all times.
The purpose of the EVE Online forums is to provide a platform for exchange of ideas, and a venue for the discussion of EVE Online. Occasionally there will be conflicts that arise when people voice opinions. Forum users are expected to be courteous when disagreeing with others.
3. Ranting is prohibited.
A rant is a post that is often filled with angry and counterproductive comments. A free exchange of ideas is essential to building a strong sense of community and is helpful in development of the game and community. Rants are disruptive, and incite flaming and trolling. Please post your thoughts in a concise and clear manner while avoiding going off on rambling tangents.
4. Personal attacks are prohibited.
Commonly known as flaming, personal attacks are posts that are designed to personally berate or insult another forum user. Posts of this nature are not conductive to the community spirit that CCP promotes. As such, this kind of behavior will not be tolerated.
5. Trolling is prohibited.
Trolling is a defined as a post that is deliberately designed for the purpose of angering and insulting other players in an attempt to incite retaliation or an emotional response. Posts of this nature are disruptive, often abusive, and do not contribute to the sense of community that CCP promote.
27. Off-topic posting is prohibited.
Off-topic posting is permitted within reason, as sometimes a single comment may color or lighten the tone of discussion. However, excessive posting of off-topic remarks in an attempt to derail a thread may result in the thread being locked, or a forum warning being issued to the off-topic poster.
ISD Decoy
Captain
Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Interstellar Services Department
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Cidanel Afuran
Static-Noise
Upholders
569
|
Posted - 2016.01.17 19:06:58 -
[5754] - Quote
Mike Voidstar wrote:Sure... you can do all that too if you want the cloak to make you completely immobile, with a known position on the map. That falls under the services that stations provide. What needs to go are the ship functions that stations do not provide, except for navigation and in the case of cov-ops the ability to warp.
You want to be as safe or safer than in a station, while still retaining use of ship functions that an enemy would have a need or desire to stop. That's not balanced.
You're either being intentionally thick, or my point went so far over your head its embarrassing. |
Mag's
Rabble Inc.
Rabble Alliance
20999
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 16:08:30 -
[5755] - Quote
Mike Voidstar wrote:Nah, I pointed out long ago that cloaks were safer than stations. It's pretty obvious that being in a known location that can be camped is not as safe as being in an unknown location that cannot even be scanned. But if there is an argument you feel I'm leaving out, state it plainly so it can be discussed. Merely hinting that there is some arcane secret that only elite people like yourself know about isn't really making a point at all.
Congrats on having a clone there, and/or the marketing skills to sell your items. Lucky break there, but not everyone has such luck or preparation. It's still a risk that must be accounted for, whereas nothing and no one can disturb that safe spot unless you let them.
The point is that the secret safe spot under a cloak is safer than a station, while leaving you with the use of ship functions that your enemy has a need or desire to interfere with. That means that you can pvp on some level from a completely unassailable position. Thus either the safety needs to go, but it has been declared inviolate by Morrigan, Teckos and others because you have to be able to do things from near 100% safe position or they just break down completely... or the range of activity needs to go, but then you lose the point of being in a ship at all...
I can see why those using cloaks don't want them adjusted into balance, but they are too strong for their range of ability. There is no arcane secret. You're making a normal Mike argument. Using all the points that favour your argument and leaving out the ones that do not.
Yes stations are a known. But to base balance on the idea that they can be camped and taken and cloaks safe spots are not known therefore cloaks are OP, is quite frankly ridiculous. Again I think I need to point out to you the name of the module. I still don't think you understand the meaning. Covert Ops.
Prey tell how do I PvP, from a safe spot? Merely hinting at some arcane secret, that only elite pilots like yourself know about, isn't making a point.
Are you suggesting I can kill people from a safe? That I don't in fact ever have to leave that safe? For your argument to even constantly give safe spots a similar safety level, surely I couldn't ever move? But now you wish for me to believe the safe spot is not only safer than a station, but I can PvP from this unassailable position and keep my safety level higher. So prey, do tell.
Or are you suggesting that the PvP on some level you hinted at, is done from a safe spot also whilst AFK? Should we talk about that elephant again? The one you include when it suits?
No, the truth of the matter is, that while I'm sat at a safe spot, I'm close to as safe as a station, but without much of the advantages that brings. Sure I can scan, hardly OP. But as soon as I move to start combat or spying, my safety levels drop. To say otherwise, would be disingenuous.
But it still remains that while I'm cloaked, the safety is a two way street.
Oh and I didn't have a clone there, until I jumped to another one in high sec as the station was being taken. Mag's also has no trade skills whatsoever, but he can chat in local. There was no preparation, none. I didn't even know they were coming for the station till they were there. So guess what I learned from this. Always have a clone in the station you have your stuff in and then you won't lose it. Yeah I can see how that's not safer. 
Destination SkillQueue:-
It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
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Jerghul
Running with Dogs
Stella Nova
7
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 16:22:01 -
[5756] - Quote
Mags
You are still not grasping implicit threat. Except when Mike says it should be possible to scan down cloaked ships. That implicit threat you seem to understand really well.
A force in being, implicit threat, a pretty big psychological effect is a big thing.
RL? The Tirpitz had filled its bow with cement. Pumped in a few 1000 tons of water to counterbalance flooding, Its Doris turret was knocked out of its fitting...
And remained a sufficient force in being, implicit threat, pretty big psychological effect to tie down 1/3rd of the Royal Navy on the off-chance it might sortie and attack a convoy.
The Royal navy really should have learned to just HTFU.
" We have been doing a lot of challenging old assumptions of late, and often with delightful results. Just because something is doesn't mean it should be..."
-Team Game Of Drones (Dec 2015)
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Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
15816
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 17:04:19 -
[5757] - Quote
Jerghul wrote:Mags
You are still not grasping implicit threat.
There's nothing to grasp, because it's completely made up. It exists only in the minds of you and Mike and a few other carebear cowards.
A cloaked player cannot mechanically effect you at all. Only your cowardice does that.
Delete local.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives
Executive Outcomes
4409
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 17:34:14 -
[5758] - Quote
Mag's wrote:
Yes stations are a known. But to base balance on the idea that they can be camped and taken and cloaks safe spots are not known therefore cloaks are OP, is quite frankly ridiculous. Again I think I need to point out to you the name of the module. I still don't think you understand the meaning. Covert Ops.
What? No!!! I was going to have the entire Imperium station out of my Arazu for our next invasion. Geeez what a let down.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives
Executive Outcomes
4411
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 17:39:42 -
[5759] - Quote
Mag's wrote:Oh and I didn't have a clone there, until I jumped to another one in high sec as the station was being taken. Mag's also has no trade skills whatsoever, but he can chat in local. There was no preparation, none. I didn't even know they were coming for the station till they were there. So guess what I learned from this. Always have a clone in the station you have your stuff in and then you won't lose it. Yeah I can see how that's not safer.
Pretty much the same with me, I was not more than 2 years into the game so no trade skills, I did have a JC there, but that was it. Most of the stuff I sold I tossed up on contracts. But show up, chat in local and watch people start showing up in station.
Hey! How about and undock button for people AFK in station? Now that Mike has made such a strong case on the equivalence between cloaking and sitting in station...seems reasonable. We'll make it so we can find cloaks and AFK station dwellers can be ejected.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Jerghul
Running with Dogs
Stella Nova
7
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 19:08:58 -
[5760] - Quote
Karous
Yah, like I said. The Royal Navy of wwii needed to HTFU.
Or to remain on topic: Delete AFK CLOAKY CAMPING.
" We have been doing a lot of challenging old assumptions of late, and often with delightful results. Just because something is doesn't mean it should be..."
-Team Game Of Drones (Dec 2015)
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