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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 3 post(s) |
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kieron
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Posted - 2006.09.18 21:21:00 -
[1]
Redundancy blogs are always heavy on the information and this one is what we've come to expect. Not only do you get a hauler's worth of info on EVE Vista, but there's also a freighter's worth of stuff on the EVE economy, complete with enough graphs and economic jargon to make a market analysist jump for joy.
With no further ado, "With a side order of economics, please..." Oh, and remember, read *then* post, not post then read.
kieron Community Manager, EVE Online |
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Cyrio
Amarr Real Nice And Laidback Corporation Miners With Attitude
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Posted - 2006.09.18 21:23:00 -
[2]
Looks like homework :)
Interesting though ------------------------------------------------- I got nothing |
Monica Foulkes
Hooligans Of War
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Posted - 2006.09.18 21:30:00 -
[3]
13 Trillion ISK a month, now that is a lot of ISK.
The 8h skill buffer |
Caerleus
Board of Twenty
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Posted - 2006.09.18 21:36:00 -
[4]
I imagine that the GDP figures are also only based upon the Market rather than escrow, so if you were to try and calculate that in aswell, the GDP would be much higher.
Nice figures tho, especially the personal GDP that allows people to see if they are above or below the datum point and get a feeling as to how they are doing in economic terms against everyone else.
Eve is like a new girlfriend - you know its going down at some point, its just when and for how long. |
elbenito
Battlestars Imperium Alliance
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Posted - 2006.09.18 21:37:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Monica Foulkes 13 Trillion ISK a month, now that is a lot of ISK.
Certainly makes the EIB scam look small.
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Hakera
Anari Higard
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Posted - 2006.09.18 21:37:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Hakera on 18/09/2006 21:37:04
Quote: there's a disparity between different groups of people in Eve, and what does increased quality of life mean in the context of an MMOG?
unlike wow, where everyone just gets richer, we hope some get poorer here :) But it certaintly is not a normal distrubition curve methinks,
a straight wallet count of isk would be interesting
good blog anyways
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Blazde
4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2006.09.18 21:41:00 -
[7]
Love the economics blogging Redundancy, keep it up. _
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Jenny Spitfire
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.09.18 21:41:00 -
[8]
Wrong spelling at title, economics and not ecomomics.
/me runs and hides. --------- Cruelty is God's way of showing kindness and God is kind.
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Haniblecter Teg
F.R.E.E. Explorer EVE Animal Control
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Posted - 2006.09.18 22:16:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Haniblecter Teg on 18/09/2006 22:21:58 120mill is hte per capita gdp of EVE.
****, Im rich.
Haves and havenots of EVE are more like 0.0 and empire.
Actually it puts the EIB in a very large share of the market. We're at 12 trillion GDP-that doesnt count what's in peoples wallets mind you, just what's 'produced'-600 billion of that is a sizeable chunk.
Ofc, 600billion compared to what is the collected accounts of the world is probably pretty small.
Even guessing that people spend 10% of their total wealth, you're looking at possibly 120 trillion in the collective bank accounts of all of EVE. Taking 120trllion / 130k players ~ 930 million per player, utterly BS bank account size for the average player.
In order to scew the numbers enough like that, there must be some SERIOUS rich people in EVE. ---------------------------------------- Friends Forever
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kieron
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Posted - 2006.09.18 22:21:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Wrong spelling at title, economics and not ecomomics.
/me runs and hides.
Alright, who remapped my keyboard and swapped the N and M keys?
Fixed!
kieron Community Manager, EVE Online |
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Tipz NexAstrum
Celestial Horizon Corp. Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.09.18 22:24:00 -
[11]
Preloading while in warp, brilliant! Honestly I thought the client already did it but I'm always happy to find out that I'm clueless
I'm excited to hear that it's something being looked at, since it could really make a positive impact. As I recall the x-box uses multi-threading to stream objects, would the the current client move in that direction or would that be suited to the Vista client? Does streaming increase the bandwidth needed between the server and client? Compared to a console where the game data is static on a disk, how resource intensive is it to coordinate the data between the server and client?
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Spartaen
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Posted - 2006.09.18 22:29:00 -
[12]
nice blog but it doesnt really TELL me anything.
maybe i'm jsut stupid
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DigitalCommunist
Evolution Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.09.18 22:31:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Redundancy the GDP per capita is used as an indicator of the quality of life, but this isn't showing us if (perhaps) there's a disparity between different groups of people in Eve, and what does increased quality of life mean in the context of an MMOG?
A good question would be how do second accounts affect the real gdp per capita? The actual number of players is far lower than the subscriber mark, and some of the chars aren't even self sufficient. This must mean the actual wealth per person must be higher than the wealth per character/account as its being pooled together.
This definitely leads to an increase in "quality of life" as per real life standards, but thats not necessarily a good thing in an online video game. Essentially, everyone becomes rich enough to get anything they want and it only increases with time as the price of everything remains the same. It becomes more difficult to change the status quo, especially using traditional methods like war.
The stuff we all consider high end content (ie. the most expensive things you can buy).. capital ships, outposts, are not all that expensive. The biggest problems are logistics, manpower and incentive. And over time they become less of an issue. So what does this mean?
We're going to need Juggernaughts and Death Stars in two years, or the multi-billionaires get tired of having nothing else to buy.
Purchasing Complex Fullerene Shards, contact me ingame. |
Haniblecter Teg
F.R.E.E. Explorer EVE Animal Control
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Posted - 2006.09.18 22:34:00 -
[14]
Originally by: DigitalCommunist
Originally by: Redundancy the GDP per capita is used as an indicator of the quality of life, but this isn't showing us if (perhaps) there's a disparity between different groups of people in Eve, and what does increased quality of life mean in the context of an MMOG?
A good question would be how do second accounts affect the real gdp per capita? The actual number of players is far lower than the subscriber mark, and some of the chars aren't even self sufficient. This must mean the actual wealth per person must be higher than the wealth per character/account as its being pooled together.
This definitely leads to an increase in "quality of life" as per real life standards, but thats not necessarily a good thing in an online video game. Essentially, everyone becomes rich enough to get anything they want and it only increases with time as the price of everything remains the same. It becomes more difficult to change the status quo, especially using traditional methods like war.
The stuff we all consider high end content (ie. the most expensive things you can buy).. capital ships, outposts, are not all that expensive. The biggest problems are logistics, manpower and incentive. And over time they become less of an issue. So what does this mean?
We're going to need Juggernaughts and Death Stars in two years, or the multi-billionaires get tired of having nothing else to buy.
Faction gear, carriers, motherships, other accounts
Trust me, multibillionaires can and do have lots of things to blow their cash on. My bet is there's whole alliances comprised of industrial *****'s alts, doing their nubbish pvp'ing wherever they go. ---------------------------------------- Friends Forever
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Virida
Mindstar Technology United Confederation of Corporations
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Posted - 2006.09.18 22:38:00 -
[15]
Well, i think the numbers fits, the economics of the servers escalates, and specially in POS warfare one see the result, and in how 0.0 alliances operate. The economy is growing, but not rotting, as most mmorpg's do: other mmo's end up flooded with high end gear, and all go around with 100 billions in their pockets, who is of no value when its nothing who EXITS games.
This is the only game where those stats is positive, otherwise in other games, it would be inflation, when the economy didnt really matter more.
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Peace Fox
Caldari Blue Flame Industry
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Posted - 2006.09.18 22:46:00 -
[16]
This very thursday I have an examination on economics.
We are learning this kind of stuff, But I am not very good in this topic
A comment to GDP
Actually Redundancy u should change the y-axis of GDP. Normaly u measure only the change of growth in % compared to the former periode. Then u can compare it directly with the GDP of ex. the US.
Analysis of the graphs.
However, if I try to analyze this graphs I would state following facts:
- Looking at Deflator graph: since jul/aug 05 the inflation of isk is successfully fighted. - Considering the rapid growth of GDP and having at the same time a deflation means that the total amount of available isk in the wallets grows not as fast as all available goods. But it grows!
- it seems that almost all produced goods are bought -> the economy is offer driven
This shows an EVE economy which looks like as we had before the big crisis in 1930. That is an economy which is not really saturated yet.
May be we will encounter the big EVE economic crisis in near future
Well we probably wont since the eve economy is independant of an employer/employee system. The player can always go to mine or hunt npc without the need to be employed and payed.
But what could happened is that the minerals are not bought anymore.
Imagine following scenario: If the amount of total isk in the players wallet starts to get smaller. Then the production is not sold anymore. The producer dont have any need of buying minerals or dont have the money for it. Then the price for minerals will fall and fall. And the miners will earn little money and dont have enough to buy ships and item from the producer. We may fall in a deep EVE recession
Well, looking forward to get more figures and graph from Redundany
Sorry, English is not my mother tongue.
Peace Fox
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Niccolado Starwalker
Syncore Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.09.18 22:48:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Niccolado Starwalker on 18/09/2006 22:49:45 A very good blog indeed. Too bad my math aint all that good! lol
But I wonder whats causing the brutal rise in GDP per capita from February 06 to June 06. The increase is in this period is like 40 mill ISK, which is aprox. the same as in the whole period of October 03 to Dec/jan 05...
The monthly GDP is brutal too. The rise from dec 05 to june 06 is extreme.
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Ifni
Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated
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Posted - 2006.09.18 22:53:00 -
[18]
I lose isk so rapidly I barely register on some of those graphs, even though I have about 120m to my name. Does this make me rich? By the terms of that blog, yes. In realistic terms? No. I can afford only the T2 ships no one else wants, and as for maintaining a lifestyle, no chance. Admittedly I am a raging noob and lose ships to stupid things, but thats for another thread
You take what is offered.And that must sometimes be enough. |
Sekar
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Posted - 2006.09.18 22:59:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Peace Fox Imagine following scenario: If the amount of total isk in the players wallet starts to get smaller. Then the production is not sold anymore. The producer dont have any need to buy minerals or dont have the money for it. Then the price for minerals will fall and fall. And the miners will earn little money and dont have enough to buy ships and item from the producer. We may fall in a deep EVE recession
Peace Fox
Except in EVE there is no cost to enter the market (most BPOs are relatively cheap) so I can buy the cheap minerals and build my own stuff. Once enough people do this, mineral prices go back up and we are quickly out of our recession.
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Grimpak
Gallente Celestial Horizon Corp. Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.09.18 23:01:00 -
[20]
pre-load in warp? OH YES PLEASE! -------
Originally by: Abdalion
Originally by: Jebidus Skari What, in EVE, is a Tyrant?
Me. Especially when it comes to troll threads.
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Sekar
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Posted - 2006.09.18 23:03:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Niccolado Starwalker Edited by: Niccolado Starwalker on 18/09/2006 22:49:45 A very good blog indeed. Too bad my math aint all that good! lol
But I wonder whats causing the brutal rise in GDP per capita from February 06 to June 06. The increase is in this period is like 40 mill ISK, which is aprox. the same as in the whole period of October 03 to Dec/jan 05...
The monthly GDP is brutal too. The rise from dec 05 to june 06 is extreme.
The very rich used to just be very rich with few large purchases on which to spend ISK. Now they have Dreads and Carriers and Outposts, freeing up their savings to grow the economy.
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Dark Shikari
Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2006.09.18 23:21:00 -
[22]
Originally by: elbenito
Originally by: Monica Foulkes 13 Trillion ISK a month, now that is a lot of ISK.
Certainly makes the EIB scam look small.
On that topic, I would like to, uh, remind those who don't frequent the market discussions forum that Dentara's claim of 790b turned out to be an outright lie (and the screenshot faked) and moreover, he attempted to ebay his main and got him and all his alts banned...
--[23] Member--
Originally by: DB Preacher The only time BoB's backs are to the wall is when Backdoor Bandit is in local.
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Joerd Toastius
Octavian Vanguard
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Posted - 2006.09.18 23:35:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Joerd Toastius on 18/09/2006 23:37:01
Originally by: Caerleus I imagine that the GDP figures are also only based upon the Market rather than escrow, so if you were to try and calculate that in aswell, the GDP would be much higher.
This I think is an important point to consider, for the simple reason that all really expensive items are sold on escrow rather than through the market, either largely or exclusively. F.ex there's a good trade in implants on escrow, even though they can be market-sold, which would have a noticable increase. However, faction ships, faction implants, officer gear etc are all escrow-exclusive and, while moving in fairly small quantities, cost extremely large amounts of money. It'd be interesting to see in fact, I think, how much trade does go on over escrow, both in terms of absolute quantity and in terms of percentage of overall trade. It might even be interesting data for the Contracts guys...
{edit} Also, preloading 4tw! As far as fleet battles go a decent pre-loading system could be the one big change that's needed atm... although I do wonder why loading lag seems to be to a fairly large degree degree proportional to fleet size rather than proportional to the number of types of ship present (assuming that the bottleneck is loading models off the disk).
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Dartwick
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Posted - 2006.09.18 23:44:00 -
[24]
Your apparent view of the relevance of your GDP calculations is seriously flawed.
YOU CANT PRICE INDEX IN AN ECONOMY ACROSS TECHNOLOGY JUMPS.
This goes for the real world and applies to EVE too. The only items you could get useful information from after indexing would be consumables. But we dont have those in EVE. The closest you would come would be in comparing prices of minerals.
Actual infationary forces on the economy could be quite large, but by indexing nearly(but not quite) obsolete equipment you end up deluting it, and over estimate GDP growth.
What you are doing makes as much sense as price indexing horse drawn equipment between the years 1880 and 1930 - and then applying them to the total economy.
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Monica Foulkes
Hooligans Of War
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Posted - 2006.09.18 23:58:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Joerd Toastius although I do wonder why loading lag seems to be to a fairly large degree degree proportional to fleet size rather than proportional to the number of types of ship present (assuming that the bottleneck is loading models off the disk).
I would say most of the lag is all the object position/direction/status data sent from the server. In a game like quake the server will send you info for 20 or so objects, in a fleet battle around a pos it could easily be thousands of objects if missiles and drones are used. I'm impressed it works at all tbh.
The 8h skill buffer |
Xelios
Minmatar Rampage Eternal
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Posted - 2006.09.19 00:03:00 -
[26]
Thank god I don't have to take any economics classes for my software engineering degree...
The new BFG.
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Michayel Lyon
Omerta Syndicate Pure.
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Posted - 2006.09.19 00:16:00 -
[27]
I wonder how much of the recent deflation that is connected to the broken agent offer tables... Luckily, I got out of the agent running business, but when I went back to look up some market orders, I noticed that the +3 implant prices had gone through the floor. And talking to an ex corp mate, he had recieved 20-30 implants in the last week or so... Broken? Intentional, to "nerf" the mission runners? Or did CCP simply give in to the whiners that didn't know they could turn down bad offers and wait for the good ones?
Perhaps the prices will rise again once Kali comes with its simplistic scan probe model and pirates will start ganking the low-sec mission runners en masse. I've seen a few pirate corps successfully bust mission runners already (my hat off to them), but I'm pretty sure it will get much worse in Kali. And this will, of course, lead to a lot of them going back to the safety in high-sec and less targets for pirates in low-sec. Was there a reason behind the decision to simplify the system scanning, other than that they gave in to pirates whining about "broken probes"? Oh well, better train up a scan probe alt before Kali is released...
Sorry, might have strayed a little bit off-topic here... And frankly, since I don't do agent missions anymore, I don't care THAT much about these issues. But perhaps one might get the devs attention here and get official (or at least semi-official) answers to questions I know a lot of people have asked (mainly the one about the offers) in other parts of the forum...
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Reiisha
Frontier Technologies
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Posted - 2006.09.19 00:52:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Niccolado Starwalker Edited by: Niccolado Starwalker on 18/09/2006 22:49:45 A very good blog indeed. Too bad my math aint all that good! lol
But I wonder whats causing the brutal rise in GDP per capita from February 06 to June 06. The increase is in this period is like 40 mill ISK, which is aprox. the same as in the whole period of October 03 to Dec/jan 05...
The monthly GDP is brutal too. The rise from dec 05 to june 06 is extreme.
I think that's simply the rise of players. As Zap posted, at Eon's release there were 57k subscribers, we're up to over 130k now.
EVE History Wiki - Help us fill it!
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Macdeth
Ephemeral Misgivings
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Posted - 2006.09.19 02:59:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Macdeth on 19/09/2006 03:03:35 No offense, but the economics part of these blogs is pretty lackluster - you're applying real world concepts to data mined from eve, but they don't really fit well at all. It's kind of like replacing the textbook 'guns and butter' with 'battleships and remote armor repairers' - it's not quite right and doesn't result in anything meaningful. Sure, the people who haven't read a single thing on economics might find it amazing, but it's awfully remedial for anyone who has seen more than newspaper headlines saying "inflation up/down X% last month"
If I may suggest what might be more interesting (to me at least), how about a chart/tables of daily net isk created/removed from Eve by all sources, both total and per capita.
Have fun identifying every single spike, both positive and negative. Most negatives will have been patches that introduce skills & blueprints, most positives will probably be exploits that hopefully have since been fixed... Speculate over the reasons for every change in the general trend, too. In the case of isk-exploits with directly related market consequences, look at them too, maybe. An example of this would be the long-since eliminated 'fixed-price npc sell order for small beam laser battery refines to isogen that can be sold to fixed-price npc buy orders at a profit, or player orders for even more', and how isogen defied the general upward trend in mineral prices for months as a result.
Then there's also basic stuff like breaking wallet sizes into deciles, at different times, ignoring the under 5m isk alts, trying to very roughly calculate the asset-worth of every character in eve which could be done against jita market averages, though it'd require some finessing of high end faction loot as excluding the broken base values for BPCs. Per capita over time, broken into deciles at checkpoints, etc.
Other people on the thread can probably come up with a bunch of other suggestions, too, if they try.
As regarding eve itself, though, preloading sounds great. It sounds so great, in fact, that I'd like to know if you'd entertain the notion of adding options to the game that allow players who have boatloads of RAM to preload much/all game data not just while in warp to where they're necessary, but on launch. I'd love to have every ship and drone texture in memory all the time, say.
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Kolhell
Minmatar CAD Inc.
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Posted - 2006.09.19 04:59:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg Edited by: Haniblecter Teg on 18/09/2006 22:21:58 120mill is hte per capita gdp of EVE.
****, Im rich.
Haves and havenots of EVE are more like 0.0 and empire.
Actually it puts the EIB in a very large share of the market. We're at 12 trillion GDP-that doesnt count what's in peoples wallets mind you, just what's 'produced'-600 billion of that is a sizeable chunk.
Ofc, 600billion compared to what is the collected accounts of the world is probably pretty small.
Even guessing that people spend 10% of their total wealth, you're looking at possibly 120 trillion in the collective bank accounts of all of EVE. Taking 120trllion / 130k players ~ 930 million per player, utterly BS bank account size for the average player.
In order to scew the numbers enough like that, there must be some SERIOUS rich people in EVE.
i have no idea what your calculations are based on or if their accurate... but wouldnt that ~930m per player include assets such as ships and whatnot? in that light it seems like a pretty fair number...
------------------------- bury the hatchet |
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