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Darodem
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Posted - 2003.10.22 16:30:00 -
[1]
weapons fail. Weapons always fail to do the most difficult of job of changing the hearts of men. Slavery, Piracy, "Evil" never go away. A gun will not destroy them! If you kill a pirate another rises to replace him.
I ask that this topic be devoted to finding a way to recognize honorable pilots, despite security misratings and public alliances.
I am sure we have all found ourselves learning a hard lesson of discovering pirates in our ranks. My corporation has been one of many seeking advantage with powerful friends and discovering the connection with piracy.
I was present at the birth of the CFS, the idealistic mission was to prosecute and defend against pirates. Like any sane and reasonable individuals they found themselves preparing for difficult opponents and delaying/avoiding confrontation of lesser pirate threats.
I was privy to decisions by TTI and Omega to allow piracy to continue even though the resources and organization existed to stamp it out.
The UGLY TRUTH is that pirates and random rampages are tools that motivate and manipulate pilots and politics. Worst of all good law abiding and honorable pilots can find themselves on opposite sides in battle.
Honorable pilots need to recognize one another and we all need to confront our pirate friends and foes alike. Our first mission should be to obey and find the laws that we share ALWAYS. |
Raukorya
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Posted - 2003.10.22 19:28:00 -
[2]
A noble idea, Darodem. Unfortunately, this is how the universe works.... there have always been and always will be honorable warriors on both sides of almost any great war, it is only by chance that they are enemies. A prime example is the current war between CA and the other major alliances. Despite the constant accusations of pirating and cowardice by both sides, there are a great number of honorable pilots on both sides of the conflict. It is simply the way war goes.
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If there is a such thing as too much power, i have yet to discover it. |
Fetty Chico
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Posted - 2003.10.22 21:17:00 -
[3]
Not all who claim to be "good" are honorable
and not all marked as "bad" are honorless
------------------------------------------------
Tell my tale to those who ask.
Tell it truly - the ill deeds, along with the good - and let me be judged accordingly.
If this world was supposed to be friendly
CCP wouldnt have wasted time paying the devs to code so many weapons |
Darodem
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Posted - 2003.10.22 21:50:00 -
[4]
To consider that both initial responses are from Minmatar encourages me about our potential.
To accept that this is the way the universe works is one thing. To accept that this is the way it will always work is quite another.
Can you truly call yourself a warrior if you do not challenge the idea that you must kill honorable pilots?
Honorable pilots may not compromise on certain things. I have alluded to several compromises that cloud claims of honor by various alliances. Indeed the primary focus of my quest is to share an evaluation of claims of "good" and marks of "Bad."
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Duke Droklar
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Posted - 2003.10.22 23:33:00 -
[5]
 Quote:
I was privy to decisions by TTI and Omega to allow piracy to continue even though the resources and organization existed to stamp it out. -Darodem
I would like to know of what you speak because your statement is complete bs.
Omega Corp and TTI along with a few other corps were part of The Entente alliance formed in beta to destroy the Endless corp alliance. Once EC disintegrated TTI formed a new alliance with Xanadu called Arcadia and The Entente was pretty much abandoned by TTI which imo had other goals and plans which they knew Omega Corp would have no part of. That brings us to retail...
In early retail Omega Corp was preparing to confront the notorious m0o (who were violating our territory) when every other corp in the galaxy was shaking in their boots at the mere mention of their name.
I sent an email to TTI and the other Entente member corps requesting the activation of The Entente MDP agreement against m0o. It was ignored by all but TTI who responded with some crap about not wishing to engage them at this time... blah, blah, blah. Omega Corp has not had any relations with TTI or any of the Entente corps since.
3 Omega Corp and 1 Solar Wind engaged 4 m0o in a fair 4vs4 battle. All 4 m0o were destroyed and 3 were podded with no losses on our part. m0o even posted in these forums stating that we were the first corp to beat them in combat.
So before you go making accusations of such a nature you should get your facts straight. Omega Corp has been anti-pirate for over a year and does not "ignore" pirates. We are not the police force of Eve but we confront pirates that operate near us or harrass our allies.
We also fully appreciate the fact that pirates are a vital part of Eve and "life" would be boring without them to confront.
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Raukorya
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Posted - 2003.10.23 02:08:00 -
[6]
Quote:
quote:
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I was privy to decisions by TTI and Omega to allow piracy to continue even though the resources and organization existed to stamp it out. -Darodem
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I would like to know of what you speak because your statement is complete bs.
Omega Corp and TTI along with a few other corps were part of The Entente alliance formed in beta to destroy the Endless corp alliance. Once EC disintegrated TTI formed a new alliance with Xanadu called Arcadia and The Entente was pretty much abandoned by TTI which imo had other goals and plans which they knew Omega Corp would have no part of. That brings us to retail...
In early retail Omega Corp was preparing to confront the notorious m0o (who were violating our territory) when every other corp in the galaxy was shaking in their boots at the mere mention of their name.
I sent an email to TTI and the other Entente member corps requesting the activation of The Entente MDP agreement against m0o. It was ignored by all but TTI who responded with some crap about not wishing to engage them at this time... blah, blah, blah. Omega Corp has not had any relations with TTI or any of the Entente corps since.
3 Omega Corp and 1 Solar Wind engaged 4 m0o in a fair 4vs4 battle. All 4 m0o were destroyed and 3 were podded with no losses on our part. m0o even posted in these forums stating that we were the first corp to beat them in combat.
So before you go making accusations of such a nature you should get your facts straight. Omega Corp has been anti-pirate for over a year and does not "ignore" pirates. We are not the police force of Eve but we confront pirates that operate near us or harrass our allies.
We also fully appreciate the fact that pirates are a vital part of Eve and "life" would be boring without them to confront.
Lets keep this thread on topic. We already have enough threads to point fingers at eachother.
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If there is a such thing as too much power, i have yet to discover it. |
Darodem
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Posted - 2003.10.23 03:00:00 -
[7]
Thank you Duke for your response.
I know you have my respect and you have become an even more important part of the political landscape.
But can you truly look us in the eye and say you did all you could to treat ALL pilots honorably; or like most pilots did you consider your own gain first and allow less than honorable pirates to continue operating against competitors.
The point of what I am saying is that there is an idea of honor that must supercede our economic or racial boundaries. Don't beat yourself up if you are not a stellar example neither am I.
I just want us to consider our shared idea of honor and find a mechanism for its expression.
I also want us to consider the lessons of our cloudy ethics.
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Asimir Kurdugal
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Posted - 2003.10.23 03:27:00 -
[8]
Darodem my old friend. It's good to see you're still lurking around the Summit.
Anyway, back the the topic at hand;
Quote:
The point of what I am saying is that there is an idea of honor that must supercede our economic or racial boundaries. Don't beat yourself up if you are not a stellar example neither am I.
This is a fine line indeed. A corporation who claims to be truely honorable must juggle ones moral trappings with economic necesity. Weather we like it or not, money makes the world go round and is a vital precursor to any endevour.
Sure, we could go around fighting evil and righting wrongs during our every waking moment where ever we see it. In fact, Im sure most who dedicate their lives to such a cause would rather do so and forsake material wealth. But, there are boundries. Things like territorial control and possesion of natural reasources become necesary to deliver justice on a grander scale.
Who's job is it to say where that line is drawn. Can we even make that distiction?
________________________________________________
Moving again, comfort of the chase
Now and again, this my saving grace
Dead on the inside, I've got nothing to prove
Keep me alive and give me something to lose
I've been gone so long, but I will come back
I will come back for you |
Duke Droklar
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Posted - 2003.10.23 11:42:00 -
[9]
Quote:
Lets keep this thread on topic. We already have enough threads to point fingers at each other. -Raukorya
I am addressing a statement made that we somehow made "decisions by TTI and Omega to allow piracy to continue" when in fact no decisions of such a nature were EVER made by Omega Corp.
Quote:
But can you truly look us in the eye and say you did all you could to treat ALL pilots honorably -Darodem
To the best of my knowlege and judgement of honor, yes.
Quote:
or like most pilots did you consider your own gain first and allow less than honorable pirates to continue operating against competitors. -Darodem
Honor has nothing to do with defending the entire population of Eve. Honor means that we do not ignore an SOS from an ally. Honor means that our word is our bond and it has never been broken. Our honor would be false if we paid pirates to harrass a competitor but we are not obligated by honor to defend a non allied corps assets. We may do so anyway but that is at our discretion.
Even when we occasionally engage in friendly chats with some of the CA locals (yes they have some pretty cool people i enjoy chatting with) I always make sure they understand that our friendly chat does not mean that I wont kill them if I get the chance since we're still at war. Wouldn't want them to mistakenly have their gaurd down.
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Makkar
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Posted - 2003.10.23 12:01:00 -
[10]
Honour relies on making good on one's promises, regardless of to whom they are made. That is the crux of it.
The ages old ideas of fair play and mercy have little or no place on the battlefield. If you're not going into battle with the odds stacked firmly in your favour, and a complete resolve to utterly destroy your opponent, you are making a mistake.
There can be no mercy. None of us are knights of old. We cannot stay the final blow, for even a crippled ship can still fight back, right to the point that the ship disintegrates. I would rather be a victor in ignomony than the "honourable" vanquished. It is the victor that writes the history, and the victor is always honorable and right. The end justifies any means.
It has been said that attacking the industrial ships of our enemy is dishonourable, or cowardly. This view is wrong. Industrial convoys are the supply lines of your foe. Destroy them, and you harm your foe's ability to fight, speeding an end to the war. Some would say that the pilots of these unarmed industrials are innocent, but I argue they know the risks of feeding the enemy war machine.
Honour, as an abstract, comes into a conflict at the end. Accepting that surrender and subsequent ceasfire gracefully, with no chiding or ridicule, when you know you have your enemy on his knees - That is honour.
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Darodem
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Posted - 2003.10.23 13:48:00 -
[11]
Quote:
decisions by TTI and Omega to allow piracy to continue
Stain alliance grabbed an awful lot of territory. I know for a fact that legitimate corporations were harrassed in the region. Yet when we had the means and the will to confront Stain about previously illegitimate territory claims TTI and Omega were pleased because Stain would protect their source of Megacyte. We did nothing. In the meantime M3G4 was destabilizing Stain and as I recall quickly went from punk to TTI public enemy number one. Don't mistake this as an accusation of anything but that you are reasonable and limited.
So Makkar and Duke would have us live in a world where it was ok to pirate, where we allowed piracy to exist if it served our purpose?! Where spectacles of violence such as Moo motivate changes in our political landscape and this is the way of things it can't be changed? Let me ask then - what has changed since the days of Endless?
Shame on us! Don't you see that the coercion will have no limit. Fear or revenge will color our every activity. What purpose will you serve that justifies such hollow existence. Yet to defeat pirates each of us has only to decide what is good for all instead of ignoring all but our own needs.
It is not honorable to accept piracy in any form. Judging your limits to do something about it is not my burden. It is however, very much, A BURDEN YOU CAN NOT HONORABLY AND VOLUNTARILY IGNORE EVER!
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Makkar
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Posted - 2003.10.23 14:40:00 -
[12]
Uhm, Darodem, where do I mention an advocacy of piracy? I never mentioned piracy in any way, shape or form.
Read my post again, and if you want clarification, ask me, and I will clarify. Don't assume, (based on who knows what spurious evidence), that I'm all for wanton destruction and theft.
My post was referring instances of actions during declared hostilities, as was your original post, and I'm not condoning the actions of some triggerhappy punk at a jumpgate.
You want to talk about honour, and in so doing, you slight mine.
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Duke Droklar
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Posted - 2003.10.23 18:02:00 -
[13]
Darodem, where the hell do you get your information? I must ask this as it is extremely flawed and incorrect.
Quote:
Stain alliance grabbed an awful lot of territory. I know for a fact that legitimate corporations were harrassed in the region.
First off we were not present at the intial creation of the Stain Alliance. We came in a couple weeks or so later. However I do support regional conquest. The only claim to space is military might. Without it you should remain in empire. Conquest is not piracy and it is not dishonorable unless you use underhanded tactics or deceit to achieve it.
Quote:
Yet when we had the means and the will to confront Stain about previously illegitimate territory claims
Who is this "we" you refer to? And if "you" had the "means and the will to confront SA" then why didn't you?
Quote:
TTI and Omega were pleased because Stain would protect their source of Megacyte.
First off TTI was NEVER part of SA. Secondly Omega Corp were part of SA and we cleared our territory of unauthorized corps including m0o. It's called conquest and OC has never needed anyone to fight our battles for us as we have decimated anyone that has stood against us for the past year. If it's one thing we've excelled at it's combat and tactics.
Quote:
In the meantime M3G4 was destabilizing Stain and as I recall quickly went from punk to TTI public enemy number one.
Not sure what you're saying here. M3g4 (no relation to Omega Corp) was causing problems by making raids outside of Stain and trying to use SA as a shield for their actions. We of the SA demanded they leave but they refused. After 3 days of warfare and massive losses on m3g4s side they left... end of story. So what's that have to do with anything?
Quote:
So Makkar and Duke would have us live in a world where it was ok to pirate, where we allowed piracy to exist if it served our purpose?!
The only purpose pirates serve is to keep Eve an exciting place to "live". Would you prefer a mining simulator? We do not condone piracy within Omega Corp or by allies. If we find substantial evidence of such then that member is dealt with or corp relations are broken with the offending corp. We do not waiver on this and it's called integrity.
Quote:
Where spectacles of violence such as Moo motivate changes in our political landscape and this is the way of things it can't be changed?
As I said, we booted m0o from our territory back when every other corp in the universe was quivering in fear of them. Were we to also pursue them accross the galaxy when what they did in empire did not concern us? Is that your idea of honor? That would be some kind of crusade and we have never claimed that.
Quote:
It is not honorable to accept piracy in any form. Judging your limits to do something about it is not my burden. It is however, very much, A BURDEN YOU CAN NOT HONORABLY AND VOLUNTARILY IGNORE EVER!
It is not our burden to defend every corp and every sector in Eve. We defend our members, our assets, our interests and our allies. If we are moved by the plight of a non aligned corp we may assist at our discretion but we are not obligated by honor to do so.
It seems you not only have the events of OC history mixed up but you are also confusing honor for being the "police of eve". Sorry, not our job. We keep our household and our area of eve as clean as possible and we do not compromise on that... honor... integrity... Omega Corp.
By the way, we are currently prosecuting a war against notorious pirate corporations in Curse. I haven't noticed you fighting by our side.
NOTE: Oracle supports CA. They do this openly and for reasons they have made clear. They believe the pirates have "turned over a new leaf". They do not hide their affiliations while secretly supplying CA or trying to infiltrate CA enemies pretending to be friends to stab them in the back. They have conducted themselves honorably... regardless of how misguided they may be. 
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Asimir Kurdugal
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Posted - 2003.10.24 00:14:00 -
[14]
What we have here, Duke and Darodem, is two different definitions of honour.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the Duke is taking more of a realist approach while Darodem promotes an idealist one. Droklar and Omega seek conduct themselves honorably in all that they do, but not "police" the universe as the Duke has stated.
I see what Darodem is saying as meaning that a truely honorable corporation or person must seek to stamp out injustice and villany where ever it may dwell, regardless of proximity or cost.
I guess my definition lies somewhere in the middle. It is a prerequisite that one acts honorably in all that they do, but they should also be constantly looking for, and utilizing the reasources necesary to flush out new dens of evil.
Quote:
NOTE: Oracle supports CA. They do this openly and for reasons they have made clear. They believe the pirates have "turned over a new leaf". They do not hide their affiliations while secretly supplying CA or trying to infiltrate CA enemies pretending to be friends to stab them in the back. They have conducted themselves honorably... regardless of how misguided they may be.
I appreciate that you are able to make the distinction that many others can't Duke. Many things have been said about Oracle recently, most of which I have been able to brush off and not take to heart. However, it is when our honor and integrity is attacked or brought into question that I feel my blood begin to boil.
I have said before and I'll say again, regardless of the past actions of some of our allies in Curse, they are our allies. What would it say about us if we were to walk away from them now that the going has gotten tough? Truely, there is no honor in that.
In truth, I bear no ill will to most of the corporations who I now find myself pitted against. Omega Corp for example, until recently we have always seen eye to eye for the most part and coexisted in a peaceful, if not friendly manner. I look foreword to the day when we may fight side by side against whatever evils may present themselves with corporations like Omega.
________________________________________________
Moving again, comfort of the chase
Now and again, this my saving grace
Dead on the inside, I've got nothing to prove
Keep me alive and give me something to lose
I've been gone so long, but I will come back
I will come back for you |
Darodem
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Posted - 2003.10.24 01:15:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Darodem on 24/10/2003 01:18:03
Quote:
where do I mention an advocacy of piracy?
Quote:
The end justifies any means.
I assumed "any means" includes piracy. It is not a slight to your honor Makkar.
Don't assume that I disapprove of Stain Alliance as it is now either despite my corporate affiliations.
What I find most frustrating is that individuals who start as allied by purpose find themselves on different sides of a war.
Quote:
Were we to also pursue them accross the galaxy when what they did in empire did not concern us?
Quote:
The only purpose pirates serve is to keep Eve an exciting place to "live".
Duke I like you and respect you and Omega. Don't pretend I am a fool enough to believe you have never faced a cloudy ethical issue. Of course you have integrity and honor and of course you are not supposed to go on any crusades. So lets assume I am completely wrong about Stain, M3G4, and the Entente. You have admitted Pirates make life exciting and that you failed to pursue them. What really interests me is your positive statements regarding finding pirates in your allies. Quote:
If we find substantial evidence of such then that member is dealt with or corp relations are broken with the offending corp.
Perhaps this is the reason for your success. Help us make the transition to becoming pirate free. Tell us where you stop in your pursuit of pirates; is it when they no longer threaten you directly? Perhaps it is when they only threaten your enemies. Have you ever blacklisted corporations or pilots publicly for participating in piracy. Certainly you won't call that a crusade. I know you are busy making money and consolidating your holdings but if you simply went to the trouble to publish some standards for behaviour or even a list of pirates and their crimes?
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Darodem
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Posted - 2003.10.24 01:34:00 -
[16]
Quote:
I see what Darodem is saying as meaning that a truely honorable corporation or person must seek to stamp out injustice and villany where ever it may dwell, regardless of proximity or cost.
Sorry no, that is not what I am saying but it sounds good. The true measure of success and the real reason that the mighty write history is because the only true measure of success is to define honor, injustice and villainy. My point is that whatever metric we are using is failing because we find ourselves infected with piracy and confronting pilots in battle who should stand by our side in the only battle that makes any difference, to truly recognize virtue and to punish evil.
That is considerably different from calling yourself virtuous and restricting your proximity to whatever you can destroy. Which is more or less what most pilots do.
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UnFriendly Fire
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Posted - 2003.10.24 03:36:00 -
[17]
Before I can respond, what is the definition of honor you seek?
Is honor being hopelessly outgunned, yet still driving in to activate your scramble and web, so your gangmembers can warp in to neutralize the threat?
Is Honor taking losses, yet shrugging them off to come back and rejoin the fight?
Is honor losing your ship or pod, but grinning because you know in the end you made a difference?
We need to know what you mean by honor, because if its the above criteria I know too many people to list.
I have one corpmate who has so far lost 8 ships so far in the CFS CA war, yet returns to every engagement.
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Ramuis
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Posted - 2003.10.24 09:30:00 -
[18]
I think UnFriendly Fire gives an almost complete list of what honour is. If you add keeping ones word to the list.
The problem Darodem is that how do you define evil. Evil has a different face depending who you ask and thatĘs why I find myself fighting honourable pilots whom I dont want to kill but we disagree and the only way to settle this is to fight since all kind of diplomatic talks has failed.
People fight for their beliefs and for some these beliefs may be evil but that has nothing to do weather or not the ones with the beliefs are honourable.
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Duke Droklar
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Posted - 2003.10.24 10:34:00 -
[19]
If I really enjoy chess and I were to kill all my chess opponents then whom would I play chess with?
Pirates are inevitable and thankfully so. They serve their purpose as all creatures in life do. While you may want to contain them to a point, to rid the world of them completely would strip the "purpose" of your very existence.
A corporation that spends all its time on hunting and killing pirates will not be around for long to continue its hopeless crusade to rid the universe of pirates which is an impossible quest to achieve.
Omega Corp prefers to conduct ourselves honorably, increase our members enjoyment, assist our allies and build strength so that we may fight the battles we consider important. Timing is everything...
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Darodem
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Posted - 2003.10.25 02:21:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Darodem on 25/10/2003 02:22:48
http://www.surveymonkey.com/s.asp?u=62829301343
Hey guys lets take this little survey!
All results will be anonymous and it does not take long!
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Gaius Kador
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Posted - 2003.10.25 02:29:00 -
[21]
Honor.
It is in our souls. Our very essence.
Look no further, we are it.
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Darodem
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Posted - 2003.10.25 02:38:00 -
[22]
Gaius seems to point out that honor is relative to the individual, I am inclined to believe Duke is of the same mind and perhaps Makkar.
I think this is an important distinction between our points of view. For me honor has an absolute component that can't be ignored but I need more time to develop this idea.
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Sarkos
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Posted - 2003.10.25 07:16:00 -
[23]
Though I believe as Gaius does, that honor is entwined in your soul, I also believe that honor can also be inspired into others.
I think honor is to sacrifice of ones self for the betterment of others. Not nessessarily to die, but of course to willingly die so your companions may live is honerable. To be fair in dealing with others, always looking for a equitable solution to bring and end of problems, for all involved.
I'm sure there are more, but it is late now. If I think of other examples, I will add them.
Either free the slaves or we will come and get them.
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Hippey
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Posted - 2003.10.25 15:42:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Hippey on 25/10/2003 18:09:23
Few Amarr have honour.
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If you kill them, they will die!
Sport the war, war support
The sport is war, total war
When victory's really a massacre.
The final swing is not a drill
It's how many people I can kill! |
Darodem
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Posted - 2003.10.25 15:45:00 -
[25]
The Survey is really informative and exactly what I am looking for, thanks to all who have responeded so far.
http://www.surveymonkey.com/s.asp?u=62829301343
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Gaius Kador
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Posted - 2003.10.25 16:32:00 -
[26]
Quote:
PIE have no honour.
At least we're above comments like this one. A pretty example of someone incapable of grasping the concept of Honor.
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Hippey
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Posted - 2003.10.25 18:08:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Hippey on 25/10/2003 20:17:16
My apolgies, I shouldn't have made it so generalized.
Though I fail to see how stating that someone has no honour, means you have no honour. I'm simply stating a fact. It doesn't make me any more honourfull or honourless.
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If you kill them, they will die!
Sport the war, war support
The sport is war, total war
When victory's really a massacre.
The final swing is not a drill
It's how many people I can kill! |
Vel Kyri
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Posted - 2003.11.03 11:02:00 -
[28]
I must say, my view of the Minmatar is changing.
A Minmatar with honour - it seems that i have been wrong about some things.
Honour is simply your good reputation and good name.
anything which increases your good name and reputation is honourable conduct, anything which would cause you to be looked at badly, is dishonourable.
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Methar Oberon
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Posted - 2003.11.03 23:06:00 -
[29]
I find myself agreeing with the point of view that honor is relative. An evil pirate may still be honorable, even though the so-called "good" guys think him otherwise. Pirates have their own sense of honor, and while it may not appeal to most of us it is honor to them.
A man who kills randomly and without remorse or purpose other than the destruction of another being has no honor. But if you claim to be an anti-pirate corp and one of your members is revealed as a pirate, as long as he comes to your aid and does not turn his back on his friends and allies that man is still honorable.
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Wars are created by frightened men. They are afraid of the consequences of war, but are far more afraid of doing nothing. |
Xenovetica
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Posted - 2003.11.06 05:59:00 -
[30]
People who talk about honor have none... it's kind've like sex.
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