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Tain Korore	Posted - 2006.09.22 17:06:00 - [31] Originally by: Laythun Originally by: Le Cardinal I do not like isk farmers and i will kick them where it hurts as soon as i see one ingame just out of fun. My corp has been abused by them a few times and they dont contribute to nothing. But put yourself in their position. Its just a bunch of ppl having a job. The employer arrange their internet connection and they "work" for him, making money. Now they might not have other possibilities to make money in rl. Remember that countries like China has a very high unemployment rate. Why wouldnt they take this opportunity? Stop riding your shiny white horses. If this was your only chance to make a living you would damn sure do it yourselves. Most of us gamers have a decent living with nice food on the table every day, a job, well educated and in most cases not a problem with surviving the daily hazards. How many of you play poker for money on internet? For you to make money you have to rip off someone else on the other computer. Remember that. Thousands of addicts use all their money on playing poker, clinging to the small chance of winning the big bucks. And you are the ones that take their money and makes their life a misery. And dont tell me that they have a "choice". Addiction is a terrible thing, and not easy to cure. Loads of addicts in eve too, but they are fortunate enought to not having to make a living out of it. Isk farming is nothing compared to that. And dont really harm you at all. "They cause inflation bla bla bla" Its a game, with virtual money that means **e, for most of us so cry me a river. Try instead of seeing why the ppl are doing it. They most likely need the money they get from it. And they get to have some fun while working As i said to begin with, ill kill em as i would kill others at every opportunity i get. And the majority of players would too. Does that make me better than the isk farmers? I think not. Killing a poor guy that have mined for a month to make his battleship is no better. Still i would knock the out of him if i get a chance. Again, try to see the other side of it instead. Talking bout etichs and morale in game is just funny. It happens every day in our rl, where it matters, where it has an impact on our rl. Eve is a game. Nothing else. Im with Cardi on this, if it was an option to work like this and the only other options were cleaning streets and menial tasks i'd farm all damn day long as long as someones paying me, cos at the end of the day u gotta do what u gotta do to survive. In anycase would they have jobs if the rich westerners dint buy so much currency??? no supply without demand. Sure, if its the best job choice you have then go for it. But don't whine like a sissy when you go to the top of everones target list. Sombody likened this to rapist/murders... well, in game dynamics, are not they 'raping' the economy and 'murdering' valid play sytles for paying customers? And so what if they don't like thier label, I'm sure those self same rapist/murders don't like thier label either but I doubt anyone would dance around it for them vs telling them tough ** you shouldn't have been an asshat
Mar Idoun Aurora Empire Fuzzy Nut Attack Squirrels	Posted - 2006.09.22 17:13:00 - [32] Originally by: Laythun Originally by: Le Cardinal I do not like isk farmers and i will kick them where it hurts as soon as i see one ingame just out of fun. My corp has been abused by them a few times and they dont contribute to nothing. But put yourself in their position. Its just a bunch of ppl having a job. The employer arrange their internet connection and they "work" for him, making money. Now they might not have other possibilities to make money in rl. Remember that countries like China has a very high unemployment rate. Why wouldnt they take this opportunity? Stop riding your shiny white horses. If this was your only chance to make a living you would damn sure do it yourselves. Most of us gamers have a decent living with nice food on the table every day, a job, well educated and in most cases not a problem with surviving the daily hazards. How many of you play poker for money on internet? For you to make money you have to rip off someone else on the other computer. Remember that. Thousands of addicts use all their money on playing poker, clinging to the small chance of winning the big bucks. And you are the ones that take their money and makes their life a misery. And dont tell me that they have a "choice". Addiction is a terrible thing, and not easy to cure. Loads of addicts in eve too, but they are fortunate enought to not having to make a living out of it. Isk farming is nothing compared to that. And dont really harm you at all. "They cause inflation bla bla bla" Its a game, with virtual money that means **e, for most of us so cry me a river. Try instead of seeing why the ppl are doing it. They most likely need the money they get from it. And they get to have some fun while working As i said to begin with, ill kill em as i would kill others at every opportunity i get. And the majority of players would too. Does that make me better than the isk farmers? I think not. Killing a poor guy that have mined for a month to make his battleship is no better. Still i would knock the ** out of him if i get a chance. Again, try to see the other side of it instead. Talking bout etichs and morale in game is just funny. It happens every day in our rl, where it matters, where it has an impact on our rl. Eve is a game. Nothing else. Im with Cardi on this, if it was an option to work like this and the only other options were cleaning streets and menial tasks i'd farm all damn day long as long as someones paying me, cos at the end of the day u gotta do what u gotta do to survive. In anycase would they have jobs if the rich westerners dint buy so much currency??? no supply without demand. That's the thing. The way the school system works is that once you test into a certain path, there isn't much vertical movement in terms of getting into better schools and getting better jobs. These kids and young adults mostly work these jobs because it's better pay and lifestyle than the alternatives. TBH i don't know what kind of sympathy i feel for these people. I can guarantee you some places really are sweatshops and some of these places beat their workers and there is no way out once you're in. In the end, it's a game for me, and I can't understand the absolute hatred, let alone the racism associated with the whole idea. Conversely, CCP is a business and needs to protect it. While i sympathize with these workers, i also sympathize with CCP as a for-profit organization and I have no qualms with their measures against farmers whatsoever. My only real problem is when other people who play the game develop a legitimate hatred for these other people who are making a living or buying their books for university. on a side note, one of the last lines in the trailer was from WoW which said "I'm in a prison in Heilongjiang". For reference, Heilongjiang is the northeast most province in China...i think. Scary.
lofty29 Gallente Praxiteles Inc.	Posted - 2006.09.22 17:59:00 - [33] Originally by: Sergeant Spot They took a job that is, at its core, an effort to screw over the payed entertainment of other people for profit. How do they screw over your entertainment, exactly? Oh noes, there are 5 farmers in jita, mining a bit. So...? Sure, maybe they mine the belts out, but whats to stop you moving? They hardly screw over your entertainment. --------------------------- Originally by: inSpirAcy Just like a tumour, the Brutix grows on you. I pwnz0r your sig, muahaha - Tirg Noes i got beat by a girl >.< - Xorus
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.09.22 18:02:00 - [34] Edited by: Dark Shikari on 22/09/2006 18:02:48 Originally by: lofty29 Originally by: Sergeant Spot They took a job that is, at its core, an effort to screw over the payed entertainment of other people for profit. How do they screw over your entertainment, exactly? Oh noes, there are 5 farmers in jita, mining a bit. So...? Sure, maybe they mine the belts out, but whats to stop you moving? They hardly screw over your entertainment. They inflate the ore market? If there were no macro miners at all, scordite might actually be worth mining... for every macro miner/ISK seller there are 10 honest miners who are put out of business. --[23] Member-- Originally by: DB Preacher The only time BoB's backs are to the wall is when Backdoor Bandit is in local.
lofty29 Gallente Praxiteles Inc.	Posted - 2006.09.22 18:15:00 - [35] Originally by: Dark Shikari Edited by: Dark Shikari on 22/09/2006 18:02:48 Originally by: lofty29 Originally by: Sergeant Spot They took a job that is, at its core, an effort to screw over the payed entertainment of other people for profit. How do they screw over your entertainment, exactly? Oh noes, there are 5 farmers in jita, mining a bit. So...? Sure, maybe they mine the belts out, but whats to stop you moving? They hardly screw over your entertainment. They inflate the ore market? If there were no macro miners at all, scordite might actually be worth mining... for every macro miner/ISK seller there are 10 honest miners who are put out of business. True, but people who are going to be mining as a proper career shouldnt be in hi-sec for very long... --------------------------- Originally by: inSpirAcy Just like a tumour, the Brutix grows on you. I pwnz0r your sig, muahaha - Tirg Noes i got beat by a girl >.< - Xorus
Sergeant Spot Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.09.22 19:51:00 - [36] Originally by: lofty29 Originally by: Dark Shikari Edited by: Dark Shikari on 22/09/2006 18:02:48 Originally by: lofty29 Originally by: Sergeant Spot They took a job that is, at its core, an effort to screw over the payed entertainment of other people for profit. How do they screw over your entertainment, exactly? Oh noes, there are 5 farmers in jita, mining a bit. So...? Sure, maybe they mine the belts out, but whats to stop you moving? They hardly screw over your entertainment. They inflate the ore market? If there were no macro miners at all, scordite might actually be worth mining... for every macro miner/ISK seller there are 10 honest miners who are put out of business. True, but people who are going to be mining as a proper career shouldnt be in hi-sec for very long... I live in deep 0.0, but there are plenty of folks who play Eve who are happy to not leave high sec space. I have enough self confidence in my style of play to NOT insist that everyone else must play the same way I do. I like the cheap minerals too, but not at the expense of good income for effort for the empire players. Its partly that farmers glut the market a bit, and partly that they reduce the health of the roid fields in empire. snip This type of comment has no place in a signature, please remain courteous - Pirlouit
Mirage Kisaragi Gallente Warrior Nation United New Eve Order	Posted - 2006.09.22 20:20:00 - [37] Originally by: Resetgun My personal attitude towards gold farming is strongly negative: It is bad for game's economy It is bad sportmanship It is reason to send spam mails and tells for players It will give advantage for those who are rich in real life It is motivation to use and find exploits It is motivation to write viruses (for example: W32.Mimail.E was used by gold seller to perform a denial of service attack against another gold seller's website) It is motivation to add hidden keyloggers to 3rd party programs I understand what you're saying, but consider the consequences and alternatives if they weren't gold farming. - Stealing, looting, and robbery. - Pirating - Selling of contrband or illegal drug smuggling. - Sex trade of underage girls as young as 7-9 yrs old. - Illegal harvesting/hunting of wildlife and forests. - Join terrorism? They have to make a living some way, one way or another. I'd rather have them gold farm than do any of the above. Since already they're taking place and without gold farming, the situation would just be 2 fold pr even 3 fold worser. Experience It, Warrior Nation United > > Gfx Artist for Hire < <
Kailea Shandrasekkar Caldari Tsurokigaarai Kimotoro Directive	Posted - 2006.09.22 20:25:00 - [38] I believe one of the key points the anti-farmers tend to forget is that you're playing a MMOG that's available to the whole world, and not only its original country. Because of that, very different economical realities clash. I'll play the uber generalistic now. People from developed countries/upper classes have more economical power - and they use it to have ingame advantages. That means not only more time to play online games, but also money to pay subscritions, bonus items and so on. Meanwhile, the 'rest' - people form underdeveloped countries/lower classes - will play free games, or play basic subscription plans, and do it the hard way. Sometimes the differences between the economic realities of these player bases grow so wide that phenomena like gold farmers starts to pop. what can i say? I've never used their services. But i can't say i bother too much about it; It even looks as a way to reduce inequality of wealth and income distribution between these two distinct groups. Haak-kin k'len.
nahtoh Caldari Bull Industries	Posted - 2006.09.22 21:08:00 - [39] Originally by: lofty29 Originally by: Dark Shikari Edited by: Dark Shikari on 22/09/2006 18:02:48 Originally by: lofty29 Originally by: Sergeant Spot They took a job that is, at its core, an effort to screw over the payed entertainment of other people for profit. How do they screw over your entertainment, exactly? Oh noes, there are 5 farmers in jita, mining a bit. So...? Sure, maybe they mine the belts out, but whats to stop you moving? They hardly screw over your entertainment. They inflate the ore market? If there were no macro miners at all, scordite might actually be worth mining... for every macro miner/ISK seller there are 10 honest miners who are put out of business. True, but people who are going to be mining as a proper career shouldnt be in hi-sec for very long... Nowthis is funny...tell me again loty where do you do your war gang tactics? Oh the Irony, I suprised that the post in question does not bust a drive platter the irony is so heavy ========= "I am not saying there should be capital punishment for stupidity, but why can`t we just take the safety labels off everything and let the problem fix its self
stoats girl	Posted - 2006.09.22 22:30:00 - [40] If you feel no compassion toward these people I doubt you've ever even truly been hungry in your life. Yes, they do ruin the ingame economy... it's a GAME. If faced with my children starving or doing sommething that might be morally unsavory you can bet I'd do a lot worse than farming in online games.
Sergeant Spot Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.09.22 23:44:00 - [41] Originally by: stoats girl If you feel no compassion toward these people I doubt you've ever even truly been hungry in your life. Yes, they do ruin the ingame economy... it's a GAME. If faced with my children starving or doing sommething that might be morally unsavory you can bet I'd do a lot worse than farming in online games. Isk farming = A pretty minor "bad thing" But Poverty does NOT "make it right". Not EVER. Minor issue, yes. But NEVER use "poverty" as an excuse to call a "bad" thing an "OK" thing. Poverty does make serious bad things ok, and it does not make minor bad things ok. Not EVER. Could the poor person be in a situation where Isk farming is the "least" bad thing available??? Yes. Could a poor person justify his "choice" of choosing to farm Isk over other bad option??? Yes!!! Yes he can. Completely logical. Its logical AND moral decision making. However Isk farming is STILL a bad an unethical thing. In a VERY minor way compared to other options, but still bad. The issue that disturbs me here is not the isk farming. ISK FARMING IS A MINOR ISSUE. The issue that disturbs me is that some folks seem to think that any "unethical" option short of drug dealing or murder is ethically "ok" if a person is "poor". WRONG!!! "Poor" might mean a person has to choose among bad options, but "poor" does NOT make bad options become good. After Katrina hit New Orleans, there were some idiots that actually said it was "ok" to let looters loot because the looters were "poor". Being poor is NEVER an excuse. I can even see giving the poor a "pass" on some bad options if no better options are available. That is perfectly reasonable. But it STILL does not make bad options into good options. If you say: "The poor Isk farmers have only worse options. It does not make Isk farming "right", but I can understand their choise.", I could agree with you. What is flat out untrue is that being poor gives someone an "excuse". An individual is always responsible for their own actions. Its called "free will", and it is a costly thing. snip This type of comment has no place in a signature, please remain courteous - Pirlouit
Sergeant Spot Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.09.22 23:51:00 - [42] There IS one logical (but wrong) excuse for holding some people to lesser ethical standards. "INFERIOR" people cannot be expected meet high standards of behavior. Such people also need to be controlled for their own good. I RABIDLY disagree with the above mind set. But at least it is more logical than viewing poverty as an excuse. snip This type of comment has no place in a signature, please remain courteous - Pirlouit
nahtoh Caldari Bull Industries	Posted - 2006.09.23 04:19:00 - [43] Originally by: Sergeant Spot There IS one logical (but wrong) excuse for holding some people to lesser ethical standards. "INFERIOR" people cannot be expected meet high standards of behavior. Such people also need to be controlled for their own good. I RABIDLY disagree with the above mind set. But at least it is more logical than viewing poverty as an excuse. I totaly agree with Sgt spots above posts, this one in peticular... Hey Sgt do you get accused of being just slighty right wing of Gengis Khan as well? ========= "I am not saying there should be capital punishment for stupidity, but why can`t we just take the safety labels off everything and let the problem fix its self
Resetgun Caldari Caldari Space Ammunition	Posted - 2006.09.23 05:45:00 - [44] Originally by: Mirage Kisaragi Originally by: Resetgun My personal attitude towards gold farming is strongly negative: It is bad for game's economy It is bad sportmanship It is reason to send spam mails and tells for players It will give advantage for those who are rich in real life It is motivation to use and find exploits It is motivation to write viruses (for example: W32.Mimail.E was used by gold seller to perform a denial of service attack against another gold seller's website) It is motivation to add hidden keyloggers to 3rd party programs I understand what you're saying, but consider the consequences and alternatives if they weren't gold farming. - Stealing, looting, and robbery. - Pirating - Selling of contrband or illegal drug smuggling. - Sex trade of underage girls as young as 7-9 yrs old. - Illegal harvesting/hunting of wildlife and forests. - Join terrorism? They have to make a living some way, one way or another. I'd rather have them gold farm than do any of the above. Since already they're taking place and without gold farming, the situation would just be 2 fold pr even 3 fold worser. ... or they could actually do something legal and helpful instead. "As long as there are greedy people and the devs do nothing, it will work." - Dentara Rast, billionaire
Phyrr	Posted - 2006.09.23 11:18:00 - [45] Edited by: Phyrr on 23/09/2006 11:21:47 Originally by: Mar Idoun I've spent some time in China and have done considerable research on computer mediated commnication pertaining to MMOGs. Through these channels i've been directed to this website for a documentary. http://www.chinesegoldfarmers.com/Trailer.html the link goes to the trailer. Hopefully it adds a littler perspective for others as to what life is like for these people who are 'employed' in these work rooms. Your link has changed my perspective on these farmers. I have stolen/petitioned/ganked many, I may continue to do this as they need something to keep staring at ice interesting But thankyou for sharing this film, I shall be more respectful to them from now on. Many people are so ignorant of conditions outside of their privilaged countries. At the end of the day if you have a problem with isk sellers, look to the people who have creted the market by buying it. I feel for these people playing eve for work and not for fun, perhaps it is envy of them that you cannot do the same. Yet ironically they envy you for the lifestyles you have.
Adonis 4174	Posted - 2006.09.23 11:33:00 - [46] Originally by: Resetgun ... or they could actually do something legal and helpful instead. Okay, now I'm rethinking. Because if they're not farming they'll be doing my job. Bad. ----- Russell T Davies is my master now.
Mar Idoun Aurora Empire Fuzzy Nut Attack Squirrels	Posted - 2006.09.23 20:51:00 - [47] http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,25689-2371221,00.html a news story mentioning this documentary. I liked the description of 'Money Rich, Time poor westerners'.
Death Kill Caldari direkte	Posted - 2006.09.23 21:08:00 - [48] Hmmm Dark Shikari>Death Kill, saying that anime is a fetish makes you racist.
Death Kill Caldari direkte	Posted - 2006.09.23 21:08:00 - [49] Edited by: Death Kill on 23/09/2006 21:08:24 dp Dark Shikari>Death Kill, saying that anime is a fetish makes you racist.
Dahin Euphoria Released Euphoria Unleashed	Posted - 2006.09.24 06:18:00 - [50] The whole problem is not the they do it. Hell, have you ever been even close to their situation? If me and my family were hungry, I'd friggin "ruin" your fairies and howies by farming. The problem is not the "ethics" bent for making money so they can have a semi-decent life. The problem is the "ethics" that are creating such a vastly inferior economy gold farming behaviour is viable and to some extent justified. Don't forget, they ruin our fairies so they can eat. EAT. As long as economical travesties like this exist, fundamentally borked situations will keep popping up like this one. Gold farming is just one observable effect of the real problem. I don't see you complaining that your nike's are too cheap... It's an effect of the same cause. No, let me not get misunderstood. I do NOT condone farming, and even "grey" areas like GTC's seriously put me off with eve. But even in a virtual world, we can't escape the mess we made out of real life. It kinda comes back and bites you in the ass. If we start speaking in "them" and "us" terms (which are bugle terms), it's mainly our fault, not theirs. Oh, and if you ever buy ISK, you suck, die (even via GTC's). At least the farmers have a very serious excuse, what's yours with GTC's?
Sergeant Spot Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.09.24 09:34:00 - [51] Originally by: Dahin The whole problem is not the they do it. Hell, have you ever been even close to their situation? If me and my family were hungry, I'd friggin "ruin" your fairies and howies by farming. The problem is not the "ethics" bent for making money so they can have a semi-decent life. The problem is the "ethics" that are creating such a vastly inferior economy gold farming behaviour is viable and to some extent justified. Don't forget, they ruin our fairies so they can eat. EAT. As long as economical travesties like this exist, fundamentally borked situations will keep popping up like this one. Gold farming is just one observable effect of the real problem. I don't see you complaining that your nike's are too cheap... It's an effect of the same cause. No, let me not get misunderstood. I do NOT condone farming, and even "grey" areas like GTC's seriously put me off with eve. But even in a virtual world, we can't escape the mess we made out of real life. It kinda comes back and bites you in the ass. If we start speaking in "them" and "us" terms (which are bugle terms), it's mainly our fault, not theirs. Oh, and if you ever buy ISK, you suck, die (even via GTC's). At least the farmers have a very serious excuse, what's yours with GTC's? Now THAT is a properly reasoned post. It looks at the issues as they "are", not as folk "wish" they were. It does not claim that Isk farming ok,....... ......but it understands why the Isk farmers choose to do it, even if the Isk farmers are otherwise entirely decent people. Sometimes all the options a person has are bad, and it is a matter of choosing the "best" bad option. But when this happens, NEVER lie to yourself or others about the basic fact that a choosen option is in fact "bad". snip This type of comment has no place in a signature, please remain courteous - Pirlouit
Ozawi Minmatar	Posted - 2006.09.24 17:11:00 - [52] One standpoint I've yet to see in this thread: Suppose these people have several other viable, legit, and legal options for feeding themselves. But this less than ethical (and grey-area quasi-illegal) method is just easier/more convenient. Do you still propel them to sainthood/martyrdom for taking the easy way out? I'm taking neither side, just want to see what you lot think about it. But it would be safe to assume that there are other means available that don't have negative impacts on other people. ------------------------------------------------ This sig is mine. There are others like it, but this one is mine alone. Mods keep out, or I will drop trou and sprinkle some tinkle in your Cheerios! -I don't eat Cheerios. -ReverendM
Basileus	Posted - 2006.09.24 19:08:00 - [53] Would all the do-gooders who point out that those poor, poor people need to isk-farm to survive please take out their cheque book and write a big fat cheque and send it to China? I'd like to get what I pay for, which is an honest game with fair chances for all. Isk farming is ruining that. I'm interested in playing a game. Solving world poverty is not part of gameplay, now is it? If you're interested in charity, join one.
Dahin Euphoria Released Euphoria Unleashed	Posted - 2006.09.25 01:55:00 - [54] It's all dependent on what makes it "your" money basileus, doesn't it? Ever wondered why you have an observably bigger buying power than "them"? It's not as if you work harder than "them" now, is it? Your fun, bought by your money which in the long run is funded by them. It's a pretty little circle.
Ogdru Jahad Amarr Four Horsemen	Posted - 2006.09.25 02:56:00 - [55] for argument sakes... If i was to buy a high sp chr and use it to farm isk via 0.0 mining or npcing or dare i say lvl4 missions and sell the isk on ebay would i be as bad as them? or maybe buy time codes and sell them at 2 dollars below real life prices. how would that effect you lot as a whole? ( i aint defending the gold farmers ) Hell i love stealing off the poor sods as much of you all love stealing mods off ships you have blown up in the name of NBSI! aka piracy under another flag.
Basileus	Posted - 2006.09.25 05:13:00 - [56] Originally by: Dahin It's all dependent on what makes it "your" money basileus, doesn't it? Ever wondered why you have an observably bigger buying power than "them"? It's not as if you work harder than "them" now, is it? Your fun, bought by your money which in the long run is funded by them. It's a pretty little circle. You talk out of the wrong end of you body friend. Please pay more attention at school and you may understand economics a little better. Spewing leftist slogans does not cut it. I'm sure there are reasons why things are the way that they are, and I have my opinion about this, however, for the discussion of gold farming I consider this irrelevant. This game is certainly not the place to start solving world problems. If you want to improve things, join a charity.
sennerin	Posted - 2006.09.25 09:43:00 - [57] I hunt them in game. History will sort'em out. Oh and the ISK prices are dropping fast.
albert camus Quam Singulari	Posted - 2006.09.25 10:59:00 - [58] its a game.... does it actualy matter? and people who are *****ing at the farmers dont, stop the buyers no market and the problems solved. The way eve works its not hard to clear out the farmers. As soon as there gone someone else will arrive not "farmers" but the plex will stil lbe farmed.
Womble God Gallente Compression Space Transport	Posted - 2006.09.25 14:51:00 - [59] I have to say im torn slightly on the subject of macrominers. Having been through those links posted up and seeing just why some people work as macrominers I feel some sympathy towards them. I have been homeless and penniless (not just a month here or there either), not just wondering "where's my next months rent coming from?" but more importantly, where is my next MEAL coming from?, If at that time someone had offered me a job as a macrominer I damn sure would have taken it, I would have put my moral judgement on the subject firmly to one side, rolled up my sleeves and worked my ass off. Before you flame me, I am a miner and this is where my personal conflict comes in to play. I understand how much macrominers screw things up for those of us who PAY to play as miners and industrialists, and why they are hated so much. The trouble I have is that I have been firmly on both sides of the fence and Im now stuck sitting squarely on said fence. Do any of us have the right to judge some of these people? Im not sure that we do.
Murukan Minmatar The Priory	Posted - 2006.09.25 16:45:00 - [60] The farmers are annoying. But hassling the macro miners doesn't really work. Got to hassle the 0.0 npcers. Man it is fun to just degrade the ** out of them (torps corp mainly) to the point that you can get a response. In rust we trust!!!**

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