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Mak'shar Karrde
Minmatar
UK Corp
Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.09.25 11:15:00 -
[61]
 Quote:
Um
You could ALWAYS recall and Gate in UO... unless you were in the Alpha?
Not entirely accurate. You could not recall into Dungeons originally and for a long time T2A could not be recalled into or within. There may be other examples (Khaldun?) but I forget.
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Taram Caldar
Caldari
Acheron Vanguard Armada
The Shadow Ascension
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Posted - 2006.09.25 11:22:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Mak'shar Karrde
Quote:
Um
You could ALWAYS recall and Gate in UO... unless you were in the Alpha?
Not entirely accurate. You could not recall into Dungeons originally and for a long time T2A could not be recalled into or within. There may be other examples (Khaldun?) but I forget.
Um... that's a bad arguement. Dungeons were not that big and frankly I rarely burned recall runes for spots inside them, even once they made that available. You could recall anywhere on the surface map. And T2A was only locked while it was new (same for all the subsequent expansions actually). For the first few months after any expansion the new areas couldn't have recall runes made for them.
But the bottom line is that UO always had the ability for relatively rapid transit across the world. Always. And it benefited from it and it never made the world "seem small" IMO.
And, c'mon now, anyone complaining that 'faster travel' makes the world seem small must absolutely LOATHE jump clones, right? Right?
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Anemus Thuella
Minmatar
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2006.09.25 12:10:00 -
[63]
I don't think it is as easy as just decreasing or increasing traveltime because it ties in with alot of other aspects of the game. If we decrease traveltime I agree we loose the "vast universe"-feeling but it's already so with instas. Warp bubbles, wcs and cloaks I feel were added just to counteract the effect of instas in the game so if we remove instas they would have to go or be severly nerfed/changed as well. For those that like the "removal of instas"-idea I don't think I've said anything controversial but here is the other thing: We would also need to compensate increased dangers of spacetravel by improving other aspects of the game to increase the "vastness of space".
For example it should require more people to hold down a system. I think a group of 30-40 people should be able to secure just one system effectively. An alliance with 2000-4000 pilots would in theory be able to patrol about a 100 systems but if they can only muster 200-400 pilots on any given day their effective control would be about 10 systems. This would lead to smaller territorial claims. The effects of this should be, based on our own history, a more fragmented political map and more conflict. A few mega alliances leads to armsrace and skirmishes but no fullblown conflicts. I think we are seeing this in-game right now. Less conflict would be detrimental to this game.
To reduce the amount of space players could hold and increase fragmentation, alot of current game-mechanics would have to be changed. For example choke-points would have to go as a strategy. To achieve this I would make more routes between regions. I would also change current game-mechanics like the cloak that protects you on entry to a system. It would be indefinite until you take action be it guns or warp. Point of entry to a system would be random within a 15-20km sphere with the gate as its center. This should make it more difficult to kill pilots instantly on entry. On approach to a gate you would need to scan the gate and make a decision based on what you see. Overall scanning should play a much stronger role in the game to give the sense of "vastness". You could even envision "scanner satellites" deployed by alliances attempting to secure their space but they would require alot of upkeep maybe even more than POSes today. With the removal of local this would lead to a more cat & mouse type of warfare within systems. In order to balance these changes which increase survivability for the lone or small gang pilots, there would have to be a bubble-type mechanism on approach on every gate. Everyone would have to approach the gate at 15 or even 20km on their thrusters alone. Hopefully, removing instas would allow more HW-resources to the BM-system. Further refinements and development of BMs might make it easier and more powerful to use whitin systems. With heavy emphasis on scanning, cloaks would have to go or be severly nerfed otherwise they would be too powerful.
I believe all of the proposed changes would bring life back to game-mechanics that don't seem to have that much importance anymore in actual game-play like fast ships vs. slow ones, turning, warp alignment, ab/mwds etc. It would also produce more prolonged combats. I would like to see fleet combat with more hit & run style tactics. I would like to see fleetcommanders break up their blobs for attacks where you meet and hold your enemy with a portion of your fleet and manouver the rest to hit your enemies in the back. I would like to see fleetcommanders keeping reserves and commiting them based on the ebb and flow of battle. I would like to see the whole system be a warfare zone not just at gates, stations and other fixed objects. Maybe with improved BMs, improved gang-mechanisms, lower dps, alot better scanning abilities and ofcourse less lag we might see that.
The biggest benefit of the "warp to 0km" idea is i.m.o. that it would be the least intrusive option on current game-play as it would essentially just replace instas. For example it wouldn't mess with the economy the way that a "more traveltime"-idea would. A universe with longer traveltimes might lead to more regionalised markets but it would also lead to slowdown in the economy. Increase in time for outstanding marketorders leads to less orders placed. This would increase price and more importantly increase the time to get a viable ship-setup together and thus decreasing conflict. It would also sharply increase the incentive for alliances to become totally self-sufficent and thus decrease trade and player interaction. Although the playerbase is big and becoming bigger. I don't think it is big enough to keep more than 2-3 markethubs going with a reasonable market liquidity. Atleast not for player-generated goods.
A "warp to 0" idea would be i.m.o a better stop-gap measure and an improvement over current game-mechanics but for the long-haul I would like the developers to go with a "balanced" idea of making the universe seem more vast. |
Mak'shar Karrde
Minmatar
UK Corp
Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.09.25 12:26:00 -
[64]
Edited by: Mak''shar Karrde on 25/09/2006 12:26:59
[The following is in reference to Taram Caldar's post]
Dungeons, while not huge, were still quite big and dangerous to travel in Felucca, especially if there were reds roaming around. The main difference is that without recalling inside everybody has to go through one point. Those chokepoints are what made it dangerous, that danger was completely removed with the ability to recall directly inside.
Also IIRC T2A was non-recall-able for a number of years, not only a few months (and on Siege, forever (unless it's changed in the last couple of years)).
Anyway, that's beside the point. Runes/Recall did make the world seem smaller. If you wanted to visit Covetous dungeon you had a choice of methods to get there. You could travel from Cove, Minoc or Vesper, all just requiring a shortish run through woodland, or via the Vesper/Minoc moongate. Or you could open your runebook and click on an icon.
If you wanted to travel to Wrong then you had a long run from Minoc through heavily infested forests, avoiding any monsters and praying you didn't encounter a Orc Mage. Or you could open your runebook and click on an icon.
If you wanted to travel to Hythloth (or Deciet) you had to first acquire a boat, travel to a nearby coast on the mainland and sail, possibly through water elementals and sea serpents, to your island of choice. Then you still had to avoid the spawn on the island and make your way to the dungeon entrance (not so Hythloth as it was on the coast). Or you could open your runebook and click on an icon.
A fair amount of people do dislike jump clones for that very reason but no amount of complaining will remove that from the game. Better to spend the effort on attemping to stymie future changes. IMHO.
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Vactet
Immortalis Silens
Atrocitas
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Posted - 2006.09.25 13:20:00 -
[65]
Right then. Just my opinion here.
The best "Travel system" in any space based game to date was in Freelancer. Rather, one aspect of it was great.
Warp Tunnels/Warp Gates.
Edit: Was going to then decided against it, long explanation. Just go play frigging Freelancer for an hour or so.
Point is with travel time is this.
Travel time (In Warp/Approaching gate or station/jumping) is empty time. It serves no..excitement.
On Autopilot through highsec? Go get some food.
But dangit, i hate that.
Making even such things as travel more..interactive would benifit.
Just eluding to freelancer. You gotta watch out during warp, you could get thrown out randomly thanks to npc's, that definately kept you paying attention.
Sometimes the world needs to be kicked in the face to stop drooling on itself like a child.
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Athren Soulsteal
Gallente
Orion Faction
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Posted - 2006.09.25 18:50:00 -
[66]
YouÆre forgetting about the jump holes, the reason there were jump holes was to cut travel time from region to region. If you had the jump holes mapped you could get from the diamond fields to the gold fields in 15 mins vs. 3 hours using the space lanes.
I actually wish that EVE used the exact same travel structure as Freelancer, it would solve so many problems.
The first thing all the posters have to remember is that EVE is a GAME and games are not supposed to be boring. Sitting there watching your ship creep toward a gate is boring and watching it for over 15 jumps is mind numbing.
All the other game companies understand this, thatÆs why EVERY other game ever made has some for of ôtown portalö because it is a game and traveling in not fun.
As other people have posted there are two types of people playing, those that divide people into two types and the rest of us.
But seriously, those of use that spend less than four hours a day playing can not afford to have more than 50% of our time sitting there watching or ships move from gate to gate. I know this is hard to understand for some, as one person posted the question ôwhy do people need to travel so muchö, well if you stop camping and try actually hunting players you would find that traveling in a pain.
At one point EVE did have a super highway and it was great, only problem was that the current chokeholds did not exist so the campers cried.
To the poster about the dragon server, No they do not pay like us, that is by Chinese law they are only allowed to play for a certain length of time a day, where you can sit at your gate 23/7 for your paid account they can only be on for a max of 4 hours in a row. So there are two things you are not going to see on the dragon server campers because who would waste their time watching a gate when they could be hunting and long distance travelers.
Actually we discussed this some time ago, the real question is does CCP stand to make enough by fixing EVE, by removing a lot of the time sinks, from the Dragon server to offset the 5-10% of players it would loose on our server. And does the money its self offer enough incentive to offset CCPÆs PKer roots?
Oh and for those people who talk about the size of the ôworldö The USA is a big place if you walk it, and even if you drive the back roads it will take a long time to cross it. Jump on an interstate and you can turn a yearÆs travel into a day. If youÆre in a hurry the same route you would walk for years can be flow in a few hours. Traveling does not change the size of the world no does the speed of travel, all it changes is the amount of time you are bored while going from point A to point B.
Games are supposed to be fun; EVE is a game and supposed to be fun. If the superhighway system was reintroduced back into EVE the traveling would again be fun for everyone but those that choose not to travel but instead spend their hours watching the gates rust while waiting for the next fly to hit the web.
Quote:
Think about the people that did fight you fairly. Think.... that were honorable and helped you out in times of need. Those are the real heroes of EVE.
I wish I could fit all the Quote |
Kella Mal
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2006.09.25 19:04:00 -
[67]
EV is successful but the game developers need to pull their heads out of their ****ty arses and sort it out. For instance: the forums. Crap. ISK for GTCs: Crap. Queues in 0.0: Crap. Masses of lag, game crashes and people spamming selling ISK: Crap. The Game Developer / Forum Moderators ability to take criticism: Non existant.
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Kella's Custom Sig, ph33r!
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Avon
Caldari
Black Nova Corp
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.09.25 21:32:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Taram Caldar
And, c'mon now, anyone complaining that 'faster travel' makes the world seem small must absolutely LOATHE jump clones, right? Right?
Correct.
I argued against them.
They were put in to the game.
I use them.
They are exactly what I feared, which is great for me, but not so great for the game.
I would happily see them removed tomorrow.
(Oh, and with UO, I should have been more clear - it was better before unrestricted and readily available recalling. It wasn't always easy for anyone to do it.)
The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
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000Hunter000
Gallente
Dummy Inc.
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Posted - 2006.09.25 21:50:00 -
[69]
If i have to travel sum jumps and don't have instas i listen to the radio, talk to friends ingame/online, check out local market, oogle other peoples ships/bio.
I hardly ever get bored while traveling.. guess it must be a state of mind or something. 
The only thing i do wish for is like an npc transport option, where u can have ur goods transported from 1 station to another so u don't have to make that same trip 10 times just to move sum trit 
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Miss Overlord
Gallente
Garoun Investment Bank
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Posted - 2006.09.25 22:13:00 -
[70]
player courier missions to move stuff just increase the rewards
Jump clones some have suggested lowering to 12 hours for ranges over 50 jumps and 24 hours for short range would encourage peeps to move around in their region but would allow more rapid long range jumps as well
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