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Pod Panik
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
12
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Posted - 2015.01.19 03:04:46 -
[1] - Quote
So...
I tried Exploration because It looked like the most interesting way of making ISK (Will NOT waste my 2h of free time per night on mining). For the last couple of days I travelled the 0.5 to 1.0 zones in search of Data or Relic sites. All I could find were Wormhole or Combat Signatures (lots and LOTS of them).
Actually, I found one Data and one relic site and made about 1 million ISK for both of them. So it would be very nice if the frequency of sites would be there.
Therefore its not an issue with my character skills because I was able to identify the signatures. I was just too late to get the good stuff and this probably caused by the fact that my game time is after the kids are in bed and my house 'tasks' are done...which is between 20h00 and 22h00 (if I am lucky). Probably the worst time to compete for the signature sites.
Now, I understand that as soon as I can get to the low and null Secs it will be a lot more interesting. But at this time I have one functional ship and if I lose it I am...well...buck naked.
So I have 5.5 millions in bank and I am trained to use Destroyer ships for Amarr, Gallente and Minmatar.
- What interesting options do I have (mostly regarding a ship) to do some combat signatures or Anomalies with that kind of budget?
- How can you identify the difficulty levels of combat Anomalies and Signatures?
- Or should I stick with missions for now because I am simply too 'green'?
As always, thanks a lot for the help. Its a very complexe game filled with interesting options. So you have to try them all as a young character to know what direction you will take for the long run. Having people that provide constructive advices really help to make the right choices!
Yeah!
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Blake Lowe
The Icarus Expedition The Daedalus Imperium
8
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Posted - 2015.01.19 03:17:11 -
[2] - Quote
Well, although it's not part of your initial questions, you could try running down some wormhole Relic // Data sites, though you'll have to look up if they spawn enemies because I only do WH combat sites.
To answer your questions in beautiful, neat, numbered form:
1.) Destroyers aren't great ships for PVE, in fact, I believe them to be some of the worst combat ships for PVE, though I may be proven wrong by some bitter old vet who's somehow magically done C6 escalated sites with an algos. Now, back on question, frigates are some of the most interesting ships in the game, and aren't bad for a starting point for stuff, though I would strongly recommend training at least cruisers and preferably battlecruisers.
2.) I believe the function used is "Googling" (That's what I do, at least) ^_^
3.) Missions are horrible ISK unless you're doing L4s, and if you have enough money to buy a fit to do L4s, you don't want the little money it does give you (About 10 mil an hour AFAIK)
So my advice is: look into doing WH data/relic sites in connections from hi-sec OR find someone doing L4 missions that wouldn't mind giving you half the ISK and letting you salvage (It's boring and gives little ISK, but if you need something to do, I suppose it works. |
Pod Panik
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
12
|
Posted - 2015.01.19 03:23:57 -
[3] - Quote
Blake Lowe wrote:
2.) I believe the function used is "Googling" (That's what I do, at least) ^_^
So my advice is: look into doing WH data/relic sites in connections from hi-sec OR find someone doing L4 missions that wouldn't mind giving you half the ISK and letting you salvage (It's boring and gives little ISK, but if you need something to do, I suppose it works.
For point #2, I mean using the scanners, is there a way to know what you are getting into before you jump?
And I was under the impression that Wormholes were tougher then normal missions/combats. Is it really something I could do with a Frigate?
Thanks for the help BTW |
Sabriz Adoudel
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE.
4417
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Posted - 2015.01.19 03:25:19 -
[4] - Quote
Firstly I think you'll find Destroyers are poorly suited to PVE. They combine the worst elements of frigates (low hitpoints) and cruisers (being easy to hit). Of the main categories of T1 ships (frig/dessy/cruiser/BC/BS), I consider them the weakest for PVE.
As for the difficulty of combat anomolies - you can look up the name of the site on Google, or just warp in and look at what is there in a ship you can afford to lose. (A rookie ship will do if you are dirt poor). For combat signatures, they vary in highsec from very easy sites aimed at a poorly-fit frigate up to sites designed for well-fitted tech 2 cruisers or tech 1 battlecruisers.
As for ships to experiment with - at 5m a cruiser is out of the question, so you are stuck with frigs and dessies for now. A long range fitted destroyer with a microwarpdrive and only a light tank is probably your best bit, as you will have the best opportunities to escape.
If you are dead broke, however, remember that EVE doesn't limit you to earning your ISK from killing NPCs or finding valuables in-game. Have you considered scamming as a way to make a few hundred million ISK? One very effective scam is the tried and tested strategy of begging. Intentionally lose a ship to NPCs, then beg in local in busy systems. "Help, NPCs killed my ship, can anyone give me 5m ISK to buy and fit a new destroyer?" A good number of useful idiots will give you ISK, and you can keep asking long after you first get paid.
Chaos. Opportunity. Destruction. Excitement... Vote #1 Sabriz Adoudel for CSM 10
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Pod Panik
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
12
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Posted - 2015.01.19 03:35:41 -
[5] - Quote
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:
If you are dead broke, however, remember that EVE doesn't limit you to earning your ISK from killing NPCs or finding valuables in-game. Have you considered scamming as a way to make a few hundred million ISK? One very effective scam is the tried and tested strategy of begging. Intentionally lose a ship to NPCs, then beg in local in busy systems. "Help, NPCs killed my ship, can anyone give me 5m ISK to buy and fit a new destroyer?" A good number of useful idiots will give you ISK, and you can keep asking long after you first get paid.
Hahaha. I prefer to deserve what I have.
I do have a Rifter waiting in my bay (from the Career quests). Would that be sufficient to do the low-end combat wormholds? |
Jolea
Cosmic Sanitarium Northern Associates.
1
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Posted - 2015.01.19 03:51:37 -
[6] - Quote
Stop doing exploration and head to Arnon and do the sisters of eve missions arc Blood Stained Stars, it will take a while to complete it, but you end up with nearly 20 million isk, possibly more.
While doing that train towards a cruiser, I would recommend either vexor, caracal, or the arbitrator. Vexor and Arbitrator being drone boats, and caracal being a missile boat. All of them are fairly easy for a noob to fit a tank on and have enough DPS to handle high security combat sites while getting skills up.
If you do find a 4/10 site just be careful. I started out in an arbitrator doing combat sites and first one netted me a pithi type a small shield booster. That single site was 100 million isk. In high sec stations are common, keep fittings with you to switch out what you need to match what sites you find.
Another bonus if you do the sisters of eve arc you get faction enough to start running level 2 missions with sisters of eve if you dont want to continue exploration. They have some of the best loyalty points conversions available. |
Shiloh Templeton
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
225
|
Posted - 2015.01.19 04:08:56 -
[7] - Quote
Pod Panik wrote:- How can you identify the difficulty levels of combat Anomalies and Signatures? These links will help
Cosmic Anomolies
This will help you know what to expect in DED sites. Notice the links at the bottom also in this page also.
DED complex list |
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1335
|
Posted - 2015.01.19 04:31:53 -
[8] - Quote
Blake Lowe wrote:
3.) Missions are horrible ISK unless you're doing L4s, and if you have enough money to buy a fit to do L4s, you don't want the little money it does give you (About 10 mil an hour AFAIK)
- 50 mill an hour from level IVs with a good ISK/LP corp. Level IV SOE burners pay 30 mill just in LP for 5 minutes work.
- More like 100 mill an hour from Epic Arcs but they are only once every 3 months
- 100 mill plus an hour with a good incursion community
HOWEVER none of those options are available to a new character.
10 mill an hour is about what you would get running a mix of level 3 and level 2s in a newb cruiser I expect.
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Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor Cosmic Consortium
5710
|
Posted - 2015.01.19 05:05:53 -
[9] - Quote
Making ISK Guide: http://wiki.eveonline.com/wiki/Making_ISK
In my opinion, the best ships for combat sites will be drone boats since they leave high slots free for scanner probe launchers. Eschewing other high slots also frees up fitting for local tank, which is extremely important for brand new pilots. So at the frigate level I would pick a Tristan. For destroyers, and Algos or Dragoon. Your mileage will vary of course.
Destroyers are quite handy in PVE, though you really do need to pick your fights carefully. Destroyers are similar to Attack Battlecruisers in a way, since they combine "size up" firepower with "size down" tank. The essentials of flying both classes are to know your enemy, know your weapon capabilities, and learn how to fit the two together. For destroyers, it is indeed possible to take on L3 and L4 missions, just as long as you get to dictate range. Your worst scenarios are those where access is through a gate that dumps you well inside missile range of a missile-spewing enemy.
So for DED 1 & 2, I would go with a drone boat. Heavy local tank (two energised membranes or shield resist amplifiers for each expected damage type), prop mod, core probe launcher and use any extra fitting for Drone Link Augmentors, sensor boosters or signal amplifiers, and drone damage augmenters.
You can shield tank or armour tank, but not both. A ship is good for shield tanking if it has four or more mid slots (I have seen people run L4s in shield tanked Harbingers).
As you build your skills in core fitting, armour/shield tanking and drones (see the Mastery tab of your ship info), start looking at adding more DPS with ship-mounted weapons such as railguns or blasters for the Tristan & Algos.
After that, head over to the Ships & Modules forum for more advice!
Day 0 Advice for New Players
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Elena Thiesant
Sun Micro Systems
1594
|
Posted - 2015.01.19 05:35:37 -
[10] - Quote
Pod Panik wrote:I do have a Rifter waiting in my bay (from the Career quests). Would that be sufficient to do the low-end combat wormholds?
No. Combat sites (anomalies) in a wormhole need battlecruiser or above in general.
Low-end WHs do however have nullsec exploration sites (data and relic) now, and those have no rats, hence they're easy enough to do in a frigate.
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Sgt Ocker
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
305
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Posted - 2015.01.19 07:58:48 -
[11] - Quote
If you like scanning for data and relic sites grab yourself a Magnate (T1 Amarr scanning frigate) and poke your head into some of the quieter lowsec systems. You can find these by using the star map and looking at statistics. You are able to see how many pilots in space in last 30 mins, number of pilots currently docked and active, plus a few others that can help you pick a quieter location for your scanning.
Completed Data and Relic sites do respawn after a period of time so just keep looking. The lower the security of the system, the better the rewards are likely to be.
Just remember to keep a close eye on Local and Dscan regularly if there are other in system with you.
What I made my 1st billion isk with (upgraded to T2 modules as skills improved) Magnate; (Cost, with fit ready to go, < >2 mil isk Core Probe Launcher Drone Link Augmentor Prototype/ Improved cloaking device
Limited 1mn Afterburner Relic Analyzer Data Analyzer
Local Hull Conversion Overdrive Injector Local Hull Conversation Nanofiber Structure Drone Damage Amplifier Drone Damage Amplifier
Small Memetic Algorithm Bank Small Emission Scope Sharpener
Drones are personal choice, I used drones according to the faction space I was working.
Suggestion - Carry a mobile depot with Small Ancillary Armor Repairer and Nanite Paste. (they ween't available when I started but would have saved docking up to repair)
My opinions are mine.
If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - -
Just don't bother Hating - I don't care
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Plippy Ploppy Cheesenose
Hedion University Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2015.01.19 08:15:33 -
[12] - Quote
Pod Panik wrote:So...
I tried Exploration because It looked like the most interesting way of making ISK (Will NOT waste my 2h of free time per night on mining). For the last couple of days I travelled the 0.5 to 1.0 zones in search of Data or Relic sites. All I could find were Wormhole or Combat Signatures (lots and LOTS of them).
I think it's been said before. There's lots of competition for data/relic sites in high sec. So they will be more scarce there unless you find some quiet part of space or run those at inconvinient times for others (like very early EU or very late US).
Or, you can try finding a wormhole to quiet low sec or null sec and do sites there - you'll probably have more luck. Risks are greater but so are the rewards.
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J'Poll
Green Skull LLC
5601
|
Posted - 2015.01.19 09:42:04 -
[13] - Quote
Lower end combat sites should be able do be done in a combat fitted frigate.
You also might want to look into a cruiser (cruisers are the workhorse of EVE) as it will open up a good bunch of options to you.
Also, did you do the SoE Epic Arc in Arnon, as that will give you around 10 - 20 mil ISK (depending on how much you have to spent during the epic arc).
Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy
Help channel: Help chat - Reloaded
Public roams channels: RvB Ganked / Redemption Road / Spectre Fleet / Bombers bar / The Content Club
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Ed MarKeen
East Domain Inc.
9
|
Posted - 2015.01.19 11:03:50 -
[14] - Quote
Sgt Ocker wrote:If you like scanning for data and relic sites grab yourself a Magnate (T1 Amarr scanning frigate) and poke your head into some of the quieter lowsec systems. You can find these by using the star map and looking at statistics. You are able to see how many pilots in space in last 30 mins, number of pilots currently docked and active, plus a few others that can help you pick a quieter location for your scanning.
Completed Data and Relic sites do respawn after a period of time so just keep looking. The lower the security of the system, the better the rewards are likely to be.
Just remember to keep a close eye on Local and Dscan regularly if there are other in system with you.
What I made my 1st billion isk with (upgraded to T2 modules as skills improved) Magnate; (Cost, with fit ready to go, < >2 mil isk Core Probe Launcher Drone Link Augmentor Prototype/ Improved cloaking device
Limited 1mn Afterburner Relic Analyzer Data Analyzer
Local Hull Conversion Overdrive Injector Local Hull Conversation Nanofiber Structure Drone Damage Amplifier Drone Damage Amplifier
Small Memetic Algorithm Bank Small Emission Scope Sharpener
Drones are personal choice, I used drones according to the faction space I was working.
Suggestion - Carry a mobile depot with Small Ancillary Armor Repairer and Nanite Paste. (they ween't available when I started but would have saved docking up to repair)
Add one or two salvage drones, they will be useful to salvage wrecks. If you carry an assembled Small Standard Container, you can save some space in the cargo, because it takes 100m3 in the cargo but can store 120m3 of stuff.
The Local Hull Conversion modules are some of the ones that were changed during last release, the versions available now are Type-D Restrained Overdrive Injector and Type-D Restrained Nanofiber Structure http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/rebalancing-modules-round-two/
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The Sun's Anvil
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
4
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Posted - 2015.01.19 12:09:27 -
[15] - Quote
Pod Panik wrote:I tried Exploration because It looked like the most interesting way of making ISK (Will NOT waste my 2h of free time per night on mining). For the last couple of days I travelled the 0.5 to 1.0 zones in search of Data or Relic sites. All I could find were Wormhole or Combat Signatures (lots and LOTS of them).
I'm pretty much in the same boat....and I've actually been trying some "dangerous" <.5 and even wormhole space....and if I'm LUCKY I'll come away with 1Mil/hour exploring.
Contrast that with dumb as dishwater mining (in HIGH sec for heaven sake) where I can pull in 3Mil/hour guaranteed (though boring as heck).... |
Pod Panik
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
12
|
Posted - 2015.01.19 12:27:08 -
[16] - Quote
Lots of great advices and I take notes of them. However I don't have 1/2 the skills you guys are mentioning.
I am not 2 weeks in the game yet and that is the issue. There are a lot of options for established players, but its the lift-off that is pretty rough while you have a dozen of skills to work on at the same time because you can't even equip some of the gear you require.
So, until I am able to (for example) use combat drones, have proper tanking and gunning skills, what are the low end options?
Mind you, i wanted to be an explorator so most of my skill time has been spent on scaning, hacking, archeology and the such. My combat skills are..well...low.
Thanks again for the help |
Tsukino Stareine
Sock Robbers Inc.
875
|
Posted - 2015.01.19 12:38:28 -
[17] - Quote
The things you require for wormhole exploration:
1. Cloak 2. Scanning mods 3. some kind of propulsion mod (mwd preferred) 4. Hacking/archaeology trained to 3 5. Astrometrics 4 6. Astrometric support skills to 3 7. Frigate skill to 4
All this takes no longer than a week to train. |
Winter Archipelago
Furtherance.
337
|
Posted - 2015.01.19 12:41:44 -
[18] - Quote
Just a little note that you can run the career agent missions for each race, and that each race has three different sets of agents (one for each of the three bloodlines). If you run them twice more for the Minmatar, you'll get a lot of additional ships that you can either put to use or sell, plus nine other sets of ships for the other three races that you can do the same with.
It's a bit dry and dull the second (and 12th) time around, but in a pinch, a number of goodies are made readily available to you because of it.
https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Career_Agents shows all of the systems in which the career agents are located.
Ransoms are accepted in Isk, Mods, Ships, and Dolls.
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Pod Panik
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
12
|
Posted - 2015.01.19 13:19:31 -
[19] - Quote
Tsukino Stareine wrote:The things you require for wormhole exploration:
1. Cloak 2. Scanning mods 3. some kind of propulsion mod (mwd preferred) 4. Hacking/archaeology trained to 3 5. Astrometrics 4 6. Astrometric support skills to 3 7. Frigate skill to 4
All this takes no longer than a week to train.
Nice, i am pretty close to that. I need astrometrics 4 and all the requirements for cloaking.
Couple days at best probably. |
Ed MarKeen
East Domain Inc.
10
|
Posted - 2015.01.19 13:26:13 -
[20] - Quote
Tsukino Stareine wrote:The things you require for wormhole exploration:
1. Cloak 2. Scanning mods 3. some kind of propulsion mod (mwd preferred) 4. Hacking/archaeology trained to 3 5. Astrometrics 4 6. Astrometric support skills to 3 7. Frigate skill to 4
All this takes no longer than a week to train.
Yeah, but without some other core skills this will be much more difficult. Fitting Analyzers, Probe Launcher, Cloaking Device and other stuff if you don't have enough CPU and Powergrid can be difficult.
Anyway, he already has some exploration skills, then maybe is time to put some time on other things.
Engineering (CPU and Powergrid) Gunnery or Missiles Shield and/or Armor Navigation
One small tip, don't waste to much time to train all races, will be useful in the future, but not now. Focus on one race ship and it's preferred tank and weapon systems.
My 2 cents |
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Fearless Jin Serb
The Nigglers Holed Up
0
|
Posted - 2015.01.19 15:28:40 -
[21] - Quote
When I first started I ran high sec combat anomalies in a destroyer (Thrasher) and made pretty decent ISK.
Every 1/10 sites seemed to yield a faction rat with a chance to drop some really good loot. Best I ever got was done 100m implant which was awesome at the time. The Hideaway anomalies occasionally escalate into 3/10 complexes which I used to also run in the destroyer quite easily, led to some decent drops too. On a good day I could make anywhere between 100-250mill if the escalations racked up and the faction drops were good. Just don't try the dens in a destroyer, you won't last long.
Fit for range and speed, and try find quite low sec systems where these anomalies tend to stack up and you'll be golden.
Any questions just drop me a mail in game, can let you know some good spots.
Edit: the ship to go got now would probably be the Algos. |
Pod Panik
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
12
|
Posted - 2015.01.19 15:40:06 -
[22] - Quote
Nice! Last night I treated myself with a Trasher with 2 long range canon and 4 short range.
So I'll try that tonight around Hek and see what I can get out of it.
Doing exploration was a bit frustrating without any chance to test my archeology/hacking.
And thank for the in-game help offer!
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Fearless Jin Serb
The Nigglers Holed Up
0
|
Posted - 2015.01.19 15:56:08 -
[23] - Quote
It's best to stick to the same weapon rather than mixing. This way all your guns have the same range.
Remember this is luck based, some nights you'll find no sites, some nights you'll find all the sites and no faction spawns and some nights you'll find one site a faction rat will spawn with an awesome drop and you'll also get the escalation which will drop a pirate frigate BPC. It's all about luck mate |
Blake Lowe
The Icarus Expedition The Daedalus Imperium
8
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Posted - 2015.01.20 02:03:11 -
[24] - Quote
The Sun's Anvil wrote:Pod Panik wrote:I tried Exploration because It looked like the most interesting way of making ISK (Will NOT waste my 2h of free time per night on mining). For the last couple of days I travelled the 0.5 to 1.0 zones in search of Data or Relic sites. All I could find were Wormhole or Combat Signatures (lots and LOTS of them). I'm pretty much in the same boat....and I've actually been trying some "dangerous" <.5 and even wormhole space....and if I'm LUCKY I'll come away with 1Mil/hour exploring. Contrast that with dumb as dishwater mining (in HIGH sec for heaven sake) where I can pull in 3Mil/hour guaranteed (though boring as heck).... Lower end wormholes turn out a lot less in payment than higher end. Hell, even C3 wormholes pump out a good 60 mil per site, which is something like 100 mil an hour, depending on your ship. (Blaster Proteus is a pain the ass to move around) |
Sgt Ocker
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
305
|
Posted - 2015.01.20 03:11:08 -
[25] - Quote
Pod Panik wrote:Lots of great advices and I take notes of them. However I don't have 1/2 the skills you guys are mentioning.
I am not 2 weeks in the game yet and that is the issue. There are a lot of options for established players, but its the lift-off that is pretty rough while you have a dozen of skills to work on at the same time because you can't even equip some of the gear you require.
So, until I am able to (for example) use combat drones, have proper tanking and gunning skills, what are the low end options?
Mind you, i wanted to be an explorator so most of my skill time has been spent on scaning, hacking, archeology and the such. My combat skills are..well...low.
Thanks again for the help The fit i posted for you can be trained into in less than 2 days. From there you just keep training and as skills improve you upgrade modules to increase productivity. Download EveHQ or EveMON, setup a skill plan, you can then see the best way to progress in what you want. I find EveHQ to be the best for me as I can fit the ship out and save it as a skill plan.
For a rookie wanting to advance in any profession the best way is to find a corp (or group of players) who do what you like. A rookie scanner alone might only make 1 or 2 mil ph but if he can team up with 2 or 3 others with the same or better skills, your income goes up too.
Eve is not "easy" you really do have to work for what you want. Take the risk, leave highsec behind and hit lowsec pockets. That 1st faction drop makes it all worthwhile.
My opinions are mine.
If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - -
Just don't bother Hating - I don't care
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Tsukino Stareine
Sock Robbers Inc.
878
|
Posted - 2015.01.20 08:08:11 -
[26] - Quote
The Sun's Anvil wrote:Pod Panik wrote:I tried Exploration because It looked like the most interesting way of making ISK (Will NOT waste my 2h of free time per night on mining). For the last couple of days I travelled the 0.5 to 1.0 zones in search of Data or Relic sites. All I could find were Wormhole or Combat Signatures (lots and LOTS of them). I'm pretty much in the same boat....and I've actually been trying some "dangerous" <.5 and even wormhole space....and if I'm LUCKY I'll come away with 1Mil/hour exploring. Contrast that with dumb as dishwater mining (in HIGH sec for heaven sake) where I can pull in 3Mil/hour guaranteed (though boring as heck)....
you're doing it wrong. |
Alliria Seedspawn
Red Cross Logi
106
|
Posted - 2015.01.21 20:25:12 -
[27] - Quote
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
you're doing it wrong.
That's helpful. |
Quanah Comanche
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
83
|
Posted - 2015.01.21 20:37:06 -
[28] - Quote
Blake Lowe wrote:The Sun's Anvil wrote:Pod Panik wrote:I tried Exploration because It looked like the most interesting way of making ISK (Will NOT waste my 2h of free time per night on mining). For the last couple of days I travelled the 0.5 to 1.0 zones in search of Data or Relic sites. All I could find were Wormhole or Combat Signatures (lots and LOTS of them). I'm pretty much in the same boat....and I've actually been trying some "dangerous" <.5 and even wormhole space....and if I'm LUCKY I'll come away with 1Mil/hour exploring. Contrast that with dumb as dishwater mining (in HIGH sec for heaven sake) where I can pull in 3Mil/hour guaranteed (though boring as heck).... Lower end wormholes turn out a lot less in payment than higher end. Hell, even C3 wormholes pump out a good 60 mil per site, which is something like 100 mil an hour, depending on your ship. (Blaster Proteus is a pain the ass to move around)
I don't think this bunch is talking about Sleeper sites.
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Tsukino Stareine
Sock Robbers Inc.
891
|
Posted - 2015.01.21 23:21:41 -
[29] - Quote
Alliria Seedspawn wrote:Tsukino Stareine wrote:
you're doing it wrong.
That's helpful.
more helpful than telling him he's doing it right :D |
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