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Aran Hotchkiss
Phoibe Enterprises
56
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Posted - 2015.01.19 11:39:33 -
[1] - Quote
Ok I normally inhabit features and ideas so I'm not sure if this is the right section but after reading a post where it was pointed out that rate of fire bonuses are reductions in your weapon cycle time, it got me wondering.
So as a basis of reference
DPS (DPS) = Damage (D) / Cycle time (T)
A 10% Bonus to dps would mean DPS = D (1+0.1) / T or simply 1.1 * DPS (a 10% boost, funny that)
A 10% Reduction to RoF, DPS = D/T(1-0.1) or DPS/0.9 ~= 1.11* DPS (11.11% boost)
So a bonus to RoF is stronger than a bonus to DPS for the same value. But then (I'm an Engineering student so doing mathematics intrigues me and this was almost fun to do) I figured that while the relation between DPS and Damage is linear, the relationship between DPS and RoF is an inverse function, or like this
http://puu.sh/eJiXZ/008c4cda12.png
and its derivative,
http://puu.sh/eJjd7/8239167c83.png
Where the benefit to DPS from reduced RoF gets higher and higher faster and faster - i.e.
25% bonus to damage = 25% bonus to DPS, 25% reduction in RoF = 33% bonus in DPS
+50% damage, +50% DPS | 50% reduction to RoF, 100% bonus to DPS
And the list goes on.
Now the drawback is you chew through ammo faster and have to reload more frequently, but whatevs.
For those who already knew this sorry for stating the obvious.
tl;dr
I was bored, did some number crunching, felt like writing a post about it. RoF bonuses are stronger than they seem ;)
Shamelessly stole this line,
Alternatively, QFT
One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
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Solecist Project
Weapons of Mass Distraction
20045
|
Posted - 2015.01.19 12:08:11 -
[2] - Quote
If you want to be accurate you should include potential wrecking shots too.
Higher RoF = higher chance of wrecking shots over the same timeframe.
A wrecking shot is Volleydamage times three, with a 3% chance of happening iirc.
This really matter when you do a lot of shots with any weapon with high RoF.
Ralph King-Griffin > **** you sol, years, ****ing years since thats happend
The Cuppy Cake Song <3 <3 <3 :D :D :D
Come along now, come along with me and I'll eeaasee your pain..
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Aran Hotchkiss
Phoibe Enterprises
56
|
Posted - 2015.01.19 12:43:40 -
[3] - Quote
If I'm thinking about this correctly....
two weapons with the same DPS but one has a slow rate of fire with high damage and the other is low damage and a high rof cycle... if each shot has a 3% chance to wreck then statistically (key word :P) you're going to get the same amount of damage over the same period of time.
It's just... you're a bit safer firing a lot of shots which can crit moderately than a single shot that miiight crit for massive damage but chances are it won't.
Also I'm a missile pleb so I'm like "wrecking shot? what's that?"
Although I've recently started using drones more intensively.
And holy **** medium drones apply dps so much better than HML's O.O
Shamelessly stole this line,
Alternatively, QFT
One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
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J'Poll
Green Skull LLC
5603
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Posted - 2015.01.19 12:47:42 -
[4] - Quote
Don't ever post pictures like that every again...It reminds me of those boring classes at Uni.
*cringes* MathCAD...
Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy
Help channel: Help chat - Reloaded
Public roams channels: RvB Ganked / Redemption Road / Spectre Fleet / Bombers bar / The Content Club
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Solecist Project
Weapons of Mass Distraction
20097
|
Posted - 2015.01.19 13:04:11 -
[5] - Quote
Aran Hotchkiss wrote:If I'm thinking about this correctly....
two weapons with the same DPS but one has a slow rate of fire with high damage and the other is low damage and a high rof cycle... if each shot has a 3% chance to wreck then statistically (key word :P) you're going to get the same amount of damage over the same period of time.
It's just... you're a bit safer firing a lot of shots which can crit moderately than a single shot that miiight crit for massive damage but chances are it won't.
Also I'm a missile pleb so I'm like "wrecking shot? what's that?"
Although I've recently started using drones more intensively.
And holy **** medium drones apply dps so much better than HML's O.O
That makes no sense.
Theory > Practise and quite frankly, your logic is screwed.
If you shoot over the course of a minute,
the weapon that shoots more often within that minute
has a higher potential of doing more damage than the other.
That's really all that's necessary to consider.
Besides, no one said anything about "low damage, high rof".
I have no idea where you bring that into it.
Oooohhh you use missiles ... well, no wonder .........
Ralph King-Griffin > **** you sol, years, ****ing years since thats happend
The Cuppy Cake Song <3 <3 <3 :D :D :D
Come along now, come along with me and I'll eeaasee your pain..
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Serene Repose
2109
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Posted - 2015.01.19 13:49:08 -
[6] - Quote
Quantity vs. Quality?
Nature vs. Nurture?
Tokyo vs. Godzilla?
Which movie would you pay to see?
Treason never prospers. What is the reason?
Why, if it prospers, none dare call it "treason."
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J'Poll
Green Skull LLC
5604
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Posted - 2015.01.19 13:53:19 -
[7] - Quote
Serene Repose wrote:Quantity vs. Quality?
Nature vs. Nurture?
Tokyo vs. Godzilla?
Which movie would you pay to see?
Godzilla (the latest) in 3D IMAX...best movie...ever.
Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy
Help channel: Help chat - Reloaded
Public roams channels: RvB Ganked / Redemption Road / Spectre Fleet / Bombers bar / The Content Club
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Ka'Narlist
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
315
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Posted - 2015.01.19 14:39:32 -
[8] - Quote
Solecist Project wrote:
If you shoot over the course of a minute,
the weapon that shoots more often within that minute
has a higher potential of doing more damage than the other.
That's really all that's necessary to consider.
No it's not because he said weapons with the same DPS. So the one shooting slower has more damage per shot and thus gets more bonus damage from a critical hit then the one shooting faster but has less damge per shot.
If this evens out statistically I can't say. |
Grauth Thorner
Vicious Trading Company
411
|
Posted - 2015.01.19 16:14:10 -
[9] - Quote
Aran Hotchkiss wrote:Ok I normally inhabit features and ideas so I'm not sure if this is the right section but after reading a post where it was pointed out that rate of fire bonuses are reductions in your weapon cycle time, it got me wondering. So as a basis of reference DPS (DPS) = Damage (D) / Cycle time (T) A 10% Bonus to dps would mean DPS = D (1+0.1) / T or simply 1.1 * DPS (a 10% boost, funny that) A 10% Reduction to RoF, DPS = D/T(1-0.1) or DPS/0.9 ~= 1.11* DPS (11.11% boost) So a bonus to RoF is stronger than a bonus to DPS for the same value. But then (I'm an Engineering student so doing mathematics intrigues me and this was almost fun to do) I figured that while the relation between DPS and Damage is linear, the relationship between DPS and RoF is an inverse function, or like this http://puu.sh/eJiXZ/008c4cda12.png
and its derivative, http://puu.sh/eJjd7/8239167c83.png
Where the benefit to DPS from reduced RoF gets higher and higher faster and faster - i.e. 25% bonus to damage = 25% bonus to DPS, 25% reduction in RoF = 33% bonus in DPS +50% damage, +50% DPS | 50% reduction to RoF, 100% bonus to DPS And the list goes on. Now the drawback is you chew through ammo faster and have to reload more frequently, but whatevs. For those who already knew this sorry for stating the obvious. tl;dr I was bored, did some number crunching, felt like writing a post about it. RoF bonuses are stronger than they seem ;)
According to https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=174360 your equations are wrong. Take a look at this image. It says that 25% increased RoF decreases the cycle time by 20% (so not 25% as in your equations).
Doing the math again would mean:
DMG = 1
RoF = 1/s
Cycle time = 1
DMG-increase = 10%
RoF-increase = 10%
10% DMG increase: DPS = DMG*DMG-increase/Cycle time = 1*1.1/1 = 1.1dps
10% RoF increase: DPS = DMG / (Cycle time / RoF * RoF-increase) = 1 / (1 / 1 * 1.1) = 1.1dps
The crit-chance doesn't have to be included in the calculations:
Gun: DMG = 1, fires 200 rounds per minute
DMG-increase = 50%
RoF-increase = 50%
Crit-% = 3%
Crit-damage = 300%
Scenario DMG-increase:
Total damage = 1.5 * 200 = 300 base damage
Including crit means 6 critical hits, 3 * 6 = 18 so total damage including crits = 468
(Why 3 * 6? We already added 100% of a single shot to base damage, so we only have to add 200% DMG per crit.
DMG * DMG-increase = 1.5. 1.5 * 2 = 3. Amount of critical hits = 6, hence 3 * 6)
Scenario RoF-increase:
Total damage = 1 * 300 = 300 base damage
Including crit means 9 critical hits, 2 * 9 = 18 so total damage including crits = 468
(Why 2 * 9? We already added 100% of a single shot to base damage, so we only have to add 200% DMG per crit.
DMG = 1. 1 * 2 = 2. Amount of critical hits = 9, hence 2 * 9)
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Jenshae Chiroptera
The Volition Cult
766
|
Posted - 2015.01.19 16:53:58 -
[10] - Quote
Serene Repose wrote:Quantity vs. Quality?
Nature vs. Nurture?
Tokyo vs. Godzilla?
Which movie would you pay to see? None of them. They are all drivel that people know what will occur in them and not need to see them.
As to the OP; people tend to select high damage mods over rate of fire for PVP because they aim for an alpha strike. Blast the enemy away with no recourse and they can no longer do any damage or waste precious seconds.
In the case of ratting, you hit the ammo problem, as there are so many targets to grind down.
CSM Ten movement for change.
CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids.
Status: Rabid carebear
Blog
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Grauth Thorner
Vicious Trading Company
411
|
Posted - 2015.01.19 17:13:48 -
[11] - Quote
According to both EFT and Pyfa increasing your RoF does indeed do more damage in comparison to increasing the damage per volley. Not sure what I'm missing or why this is the case (it's possible that the values shown by Pyfa and EFT don't calculate the increased reload time over a certain time perspective, while their calculations add some dps to compensate for the increased reload time over a certain time perspective. Or, CCP might've added a bit to RoF-damage to compensate for both increased reload time and increased cap-usage). However, if you can go for +RoF and +DMG, that has a greater output than +RoF and +RoF or +DMG and +DMG in terms of modules (due to stacking penalties).
Create your own in-game shiplabels:
>EVE Custom Ship Labeler application forum thread
>iciclesoft.com
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Soldarius
Kosher Nostra
The 99 Percent
1044
|
Posted - 2015.01.19 17:18:45 -
[12] - Quote
Solecist Project wrote:If you want to be accurate you should include potential wrecking shots too.
Higher RoF = higher chance of wrecking shots over the same timeframe.
A wrecking shot is Volleydamage times three, with a 3% chance of happening iirc.
This really matter when you do a lot of shots with any weapon with high RoF.
Does not apply to missiles.
Listed DPS on turrets is the average dps, which includes hit quality, and thus wrecking shots.
http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY
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Solecist Project
Weapons of Mass Distraction
20274
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Posted - 2015.01.19 17:25:57 -
[13] - Quote
Soldarius wrote:Solecist Project wrote:If you want to be accurate you should include potential wrecking shots too.
Higher RoF = higher chance of wrecking shots over the same timeframe.
A wrecking shot is Volleydamage times three, with a 3% chance of happening iirc.
This really matter when you do a lot of shots with any weapon with high RoF. Does not apply to missiles. Listed DPS on turrets is the average dps, which includes hit quality, and thus wrecking shots.
Yay I learned something new! :D
Thanks! :D
Never got past 300k SP with missiles. ^_^
Ralph King-Griffin > **** you sol, years, ****ing years since thats happend
The Cuppy Cake Song <3 <3 <3 :D :D :D
Come along now, come along with me and I'll eeaasee your pain..
|
Hengle Teron
Just Another Corp XIV
33532
|
Posted - 2015.01.19 17:29:33 -
[14] - Quote
wrecking shots is 1% |
Li Mu'Bai
J1mmy Rustlers
10
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Posted - 2015.01.19 17:42:35 -
[15] - Quote
@Grauth: I'm no math expert by any stretch of the imagination, but I'm not sure if the formula you're using for applying the turret RoF bonus is correct.
I distinctly remember the Eris getting a change from a higher damage bonus to a slightly lesser RoF bonus, that ended up in the same rough damage if I remember correctly. from what CCP Rise stated in the thread. It was later changed and left alone, but the argument was still made about the RoF bonus.
Damage = 100 Dmg
Rate of Fire = once per 10s
100 / 10 = 10 DPS
For a 25% damage bonus:
(100 * 1.25) / 10 = 125 / 10 = 12.5
And a 25% RoF bonus:
100 / (10 * (1 - 0.25) = 133.33 / 10 = 13.333
Your formula (top) is different from mine (bottom). Yours doesn't seem right to me.
DPS = DMG / (Cycle Time / RoF * RoF-increase)
DPS = DMG / (Cycle Time * (RoF - RoF-Bonus)
Like I said, I'm no math expert. So, correct me where you see fit. |
Soldarius
Kosher Nostra
The 99 Percent
1044
|
Posted - 2015.01.19 18:07:46 -
[16] - Quote
On the subject of RoF bonuses, a RoF bonus is a percentage applied to the cycle time of a module. For turrets, 3%/lvl for Gunnery, 4%/lvl for Rapid Fire, and 2%/lvl for weapon specialization, for a maximum of 15%, 20%, and 10%, respectively. RoF These skill bonuses are individually multiplied, not added together and then multiplied. Assuming a module with a 10 second cycle time:
Correct: 10 * (1-.15)*(1-.20)*(1-.10) = 6.12 seconds.
Incorrect: 10 * (1-(.15+.20+.10)) = 5.5 seconds.
The same applies to missiles. But the skill bonuses are different.
Skills-based modifiers (including ship skills) are not stacking penalized. But modules and rigs that effect damage or RoF are.
DPS = applied damage (volley after hit quality is applied) / cycle time (after all skills and rig/module bonuses applied).
http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY
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Grauth Thorner
Vicious Trading Company
412
|
Posted - 2015.01.19 18:25:24 -
[17] - Quote
Li Mu'Bai wrote:@Grauth: I'm no math expert by any stretch of the imagination, but I'm not sure if the formula you're using for applying the turret RoF bonus is correct.
I distinctly remember the Eris getting a change from a higher damage bonus to a slightly lesser RoF bonus, that ended up in the same rough damage if I remember correctly. from what CCP Rise stated in the thread. It was later changed and left alone, but the argument was still made about the RoF bonus.
Damage = 100 Dmg
Rate of Fire = once per 10s
100 / 10 = 10 DPS
For a 25% damage bonus:
(100 * 1.25) / 10 = 125 / 10 = 12.5
And a 25% RoF bonus:
100 / (10 * (1 - 0.25)) = 133.33 / 10 = 13.333
Your formula (top) is different from mine (bottom). Yours doesn't seem right to me.
DPS = DMG / (Cycle Time / RoF * RoF-increase)
DPS = DMG / (Cycle Time * (RoF - RoF-Bonus))
Like I said, I'm no math expert. So, correct me where you see fit.
Let's have a look at some actual in-game data:
Base:
RoF = 1.7s
DMG = 2.820375 * 8 (standard crystal) * 3 (fitted 3 guns) = 67.689
DPS = 39.8 (67.689 / 1.7 = 39.81705882352941)
DMG-increase:
10%
RoF = 1.7s
DMG = 3.1024125x
DPS = 43.8
RoF-increase:
10%
RoF = 1.53s
DMG = 2.820375x
DPS = 44.2
The DPS shown here is the DPS as shown in-game, so now it's time to find the right formula (if there is any (there is, I already had a sneak-peak))
In terms of damage increase:
RoF = 1.7s
DMG = 3.1024125 * 8 * 3 = 74.4579
DPS = 43.8 (74.4579 / 1.7 = 43.79876470588235)
In terms of rate of fire increase:
RoF = 1.53s
DMG = 2.820375 * 8 * 3 = 67.689
DPS = 44.2 (67.689 / 1.53 = 44.24117647058824)
So this is consistent. The next question is how do you get from 1.7s to 1.53s when the RoF-bonus is 10%...
RoF = Cycle time / RoF * RoF-bonus = 1.7 / 1.1 = 1.545454545454545s
RoF = Cycle time * (RoF - RoF-Bonus) = 1.7 * 0.9 = 1.53s
Wait, what!? Why?! Turns out you, and with you the OP, are right in your equations  Luckily I still have one backup for not being wrong though, as I don't like to admit that I am wrong... Turned out that the post I linked contains wrong information!
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Hengle Teron
Just Another Corp XIV
33535
|
Posted - 2015.01.19 18:30:22 -
[18] - Quote
Grauth Thorner wrote:maths
all that, just to point out what we already know... |
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
7614
|
Posted - 2015.01.19 18:32:29 -
[19] - Quote
Meh...
I just shoot a stuff.
If they blow up, I'm happy. If I blow up, I try something else. I just can't be bothered with all that ciphering.
Mr Epeen 
There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass!
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Grauth Thorner
Vicious Trading Company
412
|
Posted - 2015.01.19 18:38:47 -
[20] - Quote
Hengle Teron wrote:Grauth Thorner wrote:maths all that, just to point out what we already know...
Define: we
Create your own in-game shiplabels:
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Hengle Teron
Just Another Corp XIV
33537
|
Posted - 2015.01.19 18:40:21 -
[21] - Quote
Grauth Thorner wrote:Hengle Teron wrote:Grauth Thorner wrote:maths all that, just to point out what we already know... Define: we
clearly not you :D |
Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
19426
|
Posted - 2015.01.19 18:41:42 -
[22] - Quote
Grauth Thorner wrote:Hengle Teron wrote:Grauth Thorner wrote:maths all that, just to point out what we already know... Define: we
The pronoun used when one does not want to appear to be the only tool in the room.
Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings?
Vote Sabriz Adoudel for CSM 10!
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Grauth Thorner
Vicious Trading Company
412
|
Posted - 2015.01.19 18:43:18 -
[23] - Quote
Hengle Teron wrote:Grauth Thorner wrote:Hengle Teron wrote:Grauth Thorner wrote:maths all that, just to point out what we already know... Define: we clearly not you :D
Exactly my point, so it wasn't useless
Create your own in-game shiplabels:
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Grauth Thorner
Vicious Trading Company
412
|
Posted - 2015.01.19 18:47:57 -
[24] - Quote
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote:Grauth Thorner wrote:
Define: we
The pronoun used when one does not want to appear to be the only tool in the room.
Thanks, google.. I mean.. UaE.
Create your own in-game shiplabels:
>EVE Custom Ship Labeler application forum thread
>iciclesoft.com
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Hengle Teron
Just Another Corp XIV
33537
|
Posted - 2015.01.19 19:00:58 -
[25] - Quote
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote:Grauth Thorner wrote:Hengle Teron wrote:Grauth Thorner wrote:maths all that, just to point out what we already know... Define: we The pronoun used when one does not want to appear to be the only tool in the room.
But if I am the only tool in the shed no one can claim I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed |
Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
19427
|
Posted - 2015.01.19 19:07:31 -
[26] - Quote
Hengle Teron wrote:Unsuccessful At Everything wrote:The pronoun used when one does not want to appear to be the only tool in the room. But if I am the only tool in the shed no one can claim I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed
Touch+¬.
Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings?
Vote Sabriz Adoudel for CSM 10!
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Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
31356
|
Posted - 2015.01.19 19:11:28 -
[27] - Quote
Aran Hotchkiss wrote:Now the drawback is you chew through ammo faster and have to reload more frequently, but whatevs.
For those who already knew this sorry for stating the obvious.
I think you'll find that for most weapons, the main drawback is on cap use.
An increase in raw damage has no affect on cap use.
A decrease in cycle time increases cap use.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
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Li Mu'Bai
J1mmy Rustlers
10
|
Posted - 2015.01.19 19:27:19 -
[28] - Quote
@Grauth: No worries. I didn't care who was right or wrong, just wanted to figure out what was actually the case in-space, rather than on paper theorycrafting.
As for dmg Vs. RoF bonuses in regards to cap: Definitely. I guess its just a tradeoff for those tiny little bits of extra DPS you get from RoF bonus.
Regardless, I don't ever theorycraft or work this stuff out when fitting ships for PvP. I just slap a fit on, go "Yep. Looks good." and go smash people in the face. |
Gilan Isana
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
11
|
Posted - 2015.01.19 20:19:04 -
[29] - Quote
does this just apply to Hybrid and projectile ?
Or does it work for pew-pew too? As it could be more relevant with no reload time.
Tho of course I take the point about higher cap. . . . |
Cara Forelli
Green Skull LLC
863
|
Posted - 2015.01.19 21:00:03 -
[30] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:I think you'll find that for most weapons, the main drawback is on cap use.
This. I was surprised no one mentioned it earlier. It's a huge deal for laser boats in particular.
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