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Ryaekk Dakalsai
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Posted - 2003.10.23 12:37:00 -
[1]
Just throwing fuel on any fires about ships but how about a larger class than the industrial specialising in haulage only?
People may question why the current industrials arent enough..... Well I need to be able to shift 30-40mil of minerals around to supply large orders. Currently this just isnt possible with haulers using Giant cans being able to haul approximately 1.2mil at a time. When you need to shift this 18jumps it takes a LONG time.
What i'd like to suggest is a dedicated transport craft, no turrets, a couple of med slots and a couple of low slots. This class should have a base cargo of about 30,000 and have very little CPU and Powergrid but a reasonably large capacitor.
It should have almost zero agility and a base speed of about 50. The restraints on this class would mean afk mining wouldnt happen and you shouldnt be able to fit and MWD on it. This would be a pure hauler class, it would probably need protection and should probably rival the size of the Battleships.
A lot of empire space has been stripped and ship builders are crying out for minerals, well I can supply huge amounts of minerals but with the small industrials I just cant deliver.
I wouldnt mind if they even rivalled BS for mineral requirements or cost, a corporation should only need 1 or 2 of these to be able to effectively move their large assets around. The skill should be at least lvl5 and require say Spaceship Command lvl4 and industrial lvl4-5 as pre requisites.
This game needs specialisations and I would see this not only facilitating the mega corps being able to actually move but also open up the haulage business for real.
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Ryaekk K. Dakalsai
Royal Industrial Department President
Mining Operations Head |
Mephorios
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Posted - 2003.10.24 16:39:00 -
[2]
I think the idea, man. I know how much of a ***** is it trying to moves millions of minerals around for our corp, or to move them around to have a *gasp* battleship built. To be able to do in one haul what would take 10 would make me ever so happy. Plus, imagine how juicy of a pirate target they would make. ;)
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Baldour Ngarr
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Posted - 2003.10.24 17:59:00 -
[3]
The current set of industrial ships ARE the specialised haulers with huge cargo bays. As for wanting to transport hundreds of millions of tritanium around - hire more people?
Transport companies here on earth can't just build one truck that carries 50,000 tons of goods; they have to have a huge fleet of trucks to ferry that amount of stuff around, and a one-man operation has to make the journey a ridiculous number of times. Obviously, size considerations don't apply to zero-gravity ships, at least from a realism point of view; but I'd hate to see the game develop to where one person, on his own, can be a mega-corp with a throughput of 10 million tons of ore a day. It is meant to be *multi* player, after all. You can play on your own, but you shouldn't expect to be able to compete on a level playing field with those who band together.
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"Soon" is an ancient Icelandic word meaning "some time before the next Ice Age." |
Star Nove
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Posted - 2003.10.25 02:47:00 -
[4]
Werent you reading what Ryaekk said, Baldour?
Forgive me for qouting:  Quote:
It should have almost zero agility and a base speed of about 50. The restraints on this class would mean afk mining wouldnt happen and you shouldnt be able to fit and MWD on it. This would be a pure hauler class, it would probably need protection and should probably rival the size of the Battleships.
Which part didn't you understand, this super- hauler (which i personally think is a cool idea) would solve a lot of problems for big time "corps", not single miners. First of all, even on a bs with maximum in mining, who could be able to fill that cargo without spending a LOT of time doing it, and the same would then just fly off in theese times of war, with billions worth of minerals in the cargo, and HOPE that no pirates will attack him?! Only an complete idiot would even consider doing that! Theese super-haulers, would NEED protection, and I wouldnt take any protection less then at least 5-10 members of my corp, on cruisers/bs's.
-nove
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The great comic WDA |
Lance60266
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Posted - 2003.10.25 13:07:00 -
[5]
Ditto's to the above post,
A mega Indy would be a great idea. I would however like to augment what has already been suggested. YES, I agree this ship should not have the ability to mine. I think that mining and turrets should be separate slots on ships much like the difference between launchers and turrets in high slots. That way the mega hauler could have maybe 1 high slot and 0 mining slots.
Also an alternate to having a mega cargo bay for me at least would be to have a refine capability on board the ship. This would allow those that do venture 20 hops from a station to make it profitable.
I spent last weekend with 1 miner, 1 defender and 4 full time haulers just to mine one belt of crokite. The reason, My hauler could carry 365 units of crokit and it was 20 jumps one way to a station.
People are willing to go out into 0.0 space but not if its more profitable to mine in empire space.
Again a mega hauler should be as large as a BS with a cargo hold at say 20K with 1 turret mount but NO mining ability speed less than 100 with maybe med slots for shield boosters and 1 afterburner. warp should take a longer than average time to engage as well. If a mobile refine option were avaiable it should "Chip" into the cargo ability by say 10K this would require you to decide if you want a mobile platform or a mega hauler.
Sorry for the long post.
"Its all fun and games til somebody gets Podded" |
Riana Tabost
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Posted - 2003.10.25 16:39:00 -
[6]
Baldour Ngarr: I agree. In addition I would say consider the possibilities when newer, better standard industrials and cargo expanders are introduced with new tech levels. Surely there must be some room to grow...
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May I recommend a Cybernetic Subprocessor?.. That's an intelligence implant, sweetheart.
Ideas Lab - Reprocessing |
Xtro 2
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Posted - 2003.10.25 19:49:00 -
[7]
I remember one of my oldest fave space/strat games on the Amiga, called Deuteros, on this you had a craft called an IOS, it was handy because it wasnt limited, it had 3 Chassis sections, onto which you could fit 3 diferent types of chassis addons, Cargo pods, Tool Pods, and Cryo pods.
Cargo obviously tool minerals, tool pods could hold numerous different tools from Drones to mining attachments.
It would be nice to see not only a Indie with the ability to fit different chassis sections, enhanced cargo space, speed/engine addon, extra hull/armour protection, but other ships also, to allow corps to manufacture some interesting and varied ship types.
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Hell is nothing more than an office with fluorecent lights. |
Eisha
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Posted - 2003.10.25 21:37:00 -
[8]
MAybe a Super Tanker is the right answer... Perhaps tugs and barges would be a better way to go. Fogive me, I'm not sure how many barges a tug can handle on earth... but I could easily see a tug pulling 3 barges in this game.
"There is a ***** in everything,
thats how the light gets in." -Lenord Cohen |
Ryaekk Dakalsai
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Posted - 2003.10.27 13:01:00 -
[9]
Baldour,
Hiring more ppl isnt the answer, think of the oil industry... To move the petrol to the filling stations they use small tanker trucks, to move the oil around the world they use super tankers not millions of trucks...
I can quite easily fill orders for 10's of millions of minerals all the way up to Nocx, I just cant deliver them to the people that require them in empire space.
This has been put on the CSM question poll so if you wanna see this come along get on eve-i and vote for it. Number 12 is the one =]
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Ryaekk K. Dakalsai
Royal Industrial Department President
Mining Operations Head |
Thanatar Thed
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Posted - 2003.10.27 17:30:00 -
[10]
It's a great idea but imagine the whinning when somebody lost 1.2mil of minerals.
My ears are hurting now 
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SUNchaser
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Posted - 2003.10.27 17:39:00 -
[11]
When you consider that we are in space the size restrictions we see in the industrial class ships doesn't make any sense at all. What we have are puny and don't really balance when compared to other ships. In the oceans of the real world supertankers are among the largest ships afloat which only makes sense since their cost is a function of business. This is another "restriction" placed upon players by ccp to shape the game in their vision instead of letting the players shape the universe as advertised.
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Blink
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Posted - 2003.10.27 19:17:00 -
[12]
Or they could reduce the volume refined minerals take up. Say instead of 0.1 it's reduced to 0.01 or so. That helped tremendously with pirate loot. That way the issue is fixed directly.
Omega Corp Advertisement
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Zyrla Bladestorm
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Posted - 2003.10.27 20:05:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Zyrla Bladestorm on 27/10/2003 20:05:47
on the point that they could be the size of battleships .. the mammoth already is the size of a battleship .. with its huuge 3750 cargo 
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Apologys for any rambling that may have just occurred.
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Red Sonja
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Posted - 2003.10.27 20:08:00 -
[14]
The real world has super cargo ships that are as big if not bigger than the standard cargo ship and military craft. Eve needs this type of craft to break the grid lock of moving minerals around.
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Tazorth
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Posted - 2003.10.27 20:58:00 -
[15]
It seems to me that this issue is about to be addressed by the Titan ships. I was a little shocked to see that they all have ungodly amounts of turrets or missle hardpoints on them, but with the cargo capacities they have... well, moving minerals from 0.0 space should become much easier. The leviathian is scheduled to have a capacity of 500,000. That is enormous.
I'de definitely like to see the turrets removed, add some incentive for teamwork.
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SUNchaser
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Posted - 2003.10.27 21:20:00 -
[16]
Sorry but according to a recent dev interview titans are meant for the mega corps only and then only in a very limited way. most players will never see them.
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ISL walking
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Posted - 2003.10.28 11:11:00 -
[17]
A SUPER INDY HMMMMMMMM NOT A GOOD IDEA FOR 1 THING THAT WOULD MAKE THE PIRATE CORP BECOME EVERY MORE POWERFULL IF THEY KILLED SAY 5 AT ONCE POINT 2 DONT MINE SO FAR AWAY FROM YOU STATION GIVE SOME OF THE LESSER PLAYER A CHANCE AT GETTING SOME GOOD ORE. AND HOW SLOE WOULD THEY HAVE TO MAKE IT IF A BESTY IS 89-120KM'S WHAT WOULD A 30,000 CARGO BE HEHE 10KM'S :p
THE MEANING OF LIFE ???
THE MEANING OF DEATH ??
WHO KNOW'S - WHO CARE'S - JION THE SPACE RACE AND LOOK FOR THE STARS |
Arboc
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Posted - 2003.10.28 11:30:00 -
[18]
Quote:
Transport companies here on earth can't just build one truck that carries 50,000 tons of goods; they have to have a huge fleet of trucks to ferry that amount of stuff around
Thats because they have gravity & roads to deal with.
If you can have huge stations like the 'real' International space station, why not have huge haulers. TBH it will be something for the future although probably not in our lifetime.
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Ruffles
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Posted - 2003.10.28 13:06:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Ruffles on 28/10/2003 13:15:47
There are a number of reasons why this is a good idea.
1) There is no ship capable of moving other ships built by a corp presently, and there really should be.
2) Those that said: 'Just hire more people'. Sadly it seems there is a minor lack of commercial thought there. Most of these orders of large quantities like this are Tritanium and Pyerite, the most common minerals, and also those with the lowest return for time invested. I personally won't consider mining more then one jump from a customers delivery for these minerals, because there is NO Return in hauling them to the customer. There are set ammounts people are willing to pay for the product and shipping, full-stop.
To be honest, even for 2 isk per tri, I would almost mathematically be better off just mining and Selling to the NPC's non-stop for the same time period, then moving 10m Tritanium more then 3 jumps (don't forget no return trip cargo to help off-set the cost).
Time is money, and hiring more people costs more money for their time and ours, and seriously isn't commercially viable, neither is it viable in this commercial game.
3) Super tankers exist to move millions of units of items, specifically built for the task. I could equate this idea to something like that, and I think for this reason alone it is an amazing idea.
I have said those same commercial points to pirates time and time again saying 'Why don't you mine out of empire space? Not big enough?' No, it makes no commercial sense to haul such large quantities from 20 jumps away, with such a relatively small cargo capacity.
What does the average battleship require to build it? Lets take the Apoc, Mineral level 6, and Production Efficiency 5 for the builder:
10,249,466 minerals.
That, even split by a 1.2m haul cargo:
8.54 trips, which makes it 9 trips.
If you take a moderate distance like 8 jumps, that could be as much as 5 minutes per system, or as low as 2, so round at 3.5m / system, plus 4 mins to dock. That is 33 minutes to go One Way!
That times by 9 x 2 (as you do that journey twice don't forget), results in a total person-time investment of 594 minutes. Or 10 hours to you.
You telling me that is commercially viable when the two most common minerals in that, Tri and Py comprise 93.7% of the entire haul, for which NPC's would pay you just a little over 15.25m for those quantities of those minerals? 1.54m isk per hour hauling just those minerals, which is possibly time lost mining also if you think about it.
Hell anyone could make more mining and selling straight to NPCs. What it the motivation to delivery these minerals, which those sort of overheads and lost man power to delivering for such a length of time?
That is exactly why this type of vessel is needed. Stop and do the maths some day, you might find it quite shocking how little the return is.
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Ryaekk Dakalsai
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Posted - 2003.10.30 13:35:00 -
[20]
Well it has made it into the three CSM quetions from Lotta so lets pray for a decent answer.
The one thing this game is missing is a working trade system, there's no supply chain evident in the trade system as anyone can buy/trade/make anything they want. Tech2 may not be the panacea everyone thinks unless CCP have really thought about simple concepts such as a dedicated hauler class or to appease the critics a Super Tanker class. Tech2/3 is gonna require huge amounts of minerals, jeez how much trit will a station require? Is there enough in a system? Will it be more efficient to buy it in? Not if you cant haul it about economically. 
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Ryaekk K. Dakalsai
Royal Industrial Department President
Mining Operations Head |
Admiral IceBlock
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Posted - 2003.10.30 14:38:00 -
[21]
no point to add a new uber hauler with 30,000 cargo space.... And to move ships add a Carrier or a (dont remember what it is in english) a thing with a wire that drags the ship around.... Maybe give the Mammoth and Iteron V a bit larger cargo space becouse of their size....
"We brake for nobody"
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Eisha
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Posted - 2003.10.30 23:27:00 -
[22]
Quote:
no point to add a new uber hauler with 30,000 cargo space.... And to move ships add a Carrier or a (dont remember what it is in english) a thing with a wire that drags the ship around.... Maybe give the Mammoth and Iteron V a bit larger cargo space becouse of their size....
Its a Tug.
"There is a ***** in everything,
thats how the light gets in." -Lenord Cohen |
Elentari
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Posted - 2003.10.31 04:44:00 -
[23]
There are certain things about the game that are not SUPPOSED to be fun and entertaining and easy, things like mining and hauling.
Devs mentioned that "Interbus" will soon be introduced. Those who scoff at the SoonTM, Interbus will be completed much earlier and with MUCH less effort than coordinating and designing, modeling and balancing a mega-indy.
You will never, ever see a so-called, speculated-in-this-thread mega-indy in the game.
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