Apparently CCP/ the CSM are debating removing attribute points and the learning implants from the game. I would like to raise the following issues with this possible action:

1) This idea seems to remove an additional element of risk to undocking in New Eden. I along with probably a lot of capsuleers do not like it when they are podded and have to replace implants & hardwiring but it is a part of the game. This idea follows the recent removal of medical clones which arguably was a good idea but I don't think we needed to go further than that change.

2) This change would be another kick in the pants to the missions system, mission/LP revenue and various career sub-options such as selling ore for storyline missions etc. I would argue that too many revenue ideas have been removed or made uneconomic already.

3) I feel this is another case of dumbing down of the game. Are we eventually going to get to a point where EVE Online is like many other MMOs where items are just collected within the game and nothing gets destroyed ?

I invite comments and ask whether people feel the attribute point & implants are a nice complication within the game or whether we should throw the baby out with the bathwater.

If it aint broke, dont fix it (or in this case stuff around with it).
There are other things that need attention in EVE.

Great post, would read again.

The entire skills system is nothing but a Skinner's Box. LOL @ people who think that training skills has any value/gameplay/skill involved. It is all a scam. There is no valid argument in favor of learning implants or attributes, it is simply complexity within a system that is designed solely to keep players subscribed. It is all a worthless time sink.

Get rid of attributes, get rid of learning implants, give everyone the current max SP/hour. Give all new players lvl 3 in all engineering and navigation skills while you're at it. Training a bunch of 5-20 minute skills to be able to fit basic modules is dumb.

If I have my learning implants removed from the game, which I paid for in terms of time and effort, I would like to be able to learn just as quickly as if I had the implants. I would also expect to be compensated for the cost of those same implants.

You are reacting to outputs. If they decide to remove implants then they are reacting to inputs. Maybe people should ask the question, "What information does CCP and the CSM have that would make them consider this?"

Think about it, the proposal would eliminate a consumable that burns isk. I am sure they would not consider this lightly.

Ahh, politics.

Okay, here's what's going to happen. Attributes, remaps, and attribute implants are going to die. Regular combat implants are going to remain, but they're probably going to be rebalanced a bit to compensate for some of the missing holes.

SP will become a flat SP/H based on the current maximum, or something very close to it. In addition, expect a balancing pass for implants. They might take the opportunity to rework the bonuses a bit, but overall the system should remain superficially the same: Stick chips in your head for fighty power, get podded and lose the fighty power. Circle of life. Expect compensation in the form of LP for any implants that go missing.

I know all this because I have over a decade of studying MMOs in general and EVE in particular, and also because I have the cognitive ability required to whistle and **** at the same time.

The core of it is this: Due to a combination of tradition and greed, MMO companies like to keep you from being max level too quickly. They put up walls between newbie level and maxed out character level. Eve's skill system is different from the leveling systems you see in most MMOs, but the fundamental drive is the same.

What isn't the same, however, is the methodology. Eve's designers originally made the brilliant observation that the goal of the "grind" is too keep people from getting powerful too quickly. That is, it's a delay. It's about time. So why not make the progression system in Eve purely a question of waiting? It's a simple system, and you don't force people to do **** they don't want to in order to advance.

But see, here's the kicker. In most MMOs, progression speed is not a universal constant. There's no real hard cap on how fast you can hit 100 in WoW. I mean, in practice there is, but it's a soft sort of cap. In Eve, it's really hard and fast. But there's still some minor variance. Implants, attributes, remaps.

CCP wants to kill that variance.

Why?

Because it is a dominating force. You can always say "I'll level faster". You can always say "I'll grind more missions" or "I'll mine more Veldspar". But you can't say "I'll create more time". You can't magic any extra hours out of your ass. Which means if people are given the choice of "make the most of my only hard limited resource" or "do literally anything else", you better believe they're going to go with sitting in a station with a head full of +5s. It's the same logic that caused learning skills to get vaporized way back when, and it's just as relevant now as it was back then.

This is why the system is bad. This is why it's going to die. This is why the game will be better for it.

No, your precious hardcore sandbox is not going away. Nobody's getting free Titans in their inbox. This is not the beginning of the end, it's another step in the endless refining process. Embrace the change and realize it'll result in better living for everybody.

Or cry loudly. It doesn't make a lot of difference.

It's funny how a quick facts check shows both of you to be amazingly inept at EVE, yet you somehow try to portray yourselves as being capable of knowing what's best for the game.

You just went full ******, never go full ******. Your hilariously dumb "caps on everything", which is just you being attention *****, and what you... typed gives an overall feeling of you being clueless on the game.

Also, you showcased just brilliantly as to why you're just a hypocrite liar. You're not in this "for the betterment of the game" or "think of the newbies", it's just you being selfish and want this for personal reasons which mostly have to do with your warped idea of how SP is important, and how you want to speed up training without downsides to get to your personal goals asap.

You can stop the charade, no one's buying it.

No it isn't, what I'm saying is that it would be stupid to have new players train slower than we did. Even if you give new players 5000SP/h I still will run out of trainable skills before they catch up. They will never catch up to the people starting a decade earlier. However that isn't a good reason to make them suffer two decades for the same progress though.

Get isk and buy a character in the bizarre with the skills already trained. There is a solution.

Quote "I agree that is why new player start playing and give up its boring and tedious. I know I am three years into the game I will never catch up.I just cant get out because I invested so much time and money .the issue is veterans dont want to get rid of it because they invested 10 years of there lives it understandable to protect that however In my proposal you will be compensated thats pretty generous whats wrong with that?"

Really, so plugging in implants is boring and tedious, having attributes behind the scene that you very rarely play with is boring and tedious.

Then you must find PI the same, just a farmville clicking, WH travel the same because you have to constantly scan down wholes etc, same thing over and over again. Then PVP, OMG, what happens when you dont get a fight, perhaps you have to travel 20 jumps just to find a target. FFS no one is making you play and don't let the door hit you in the arse as you walk out.

I know here is a crazy thought. Lets just wipe out all skill points and allow all players to start again. Then that way we can redo our skills that have been wasted on stuff that we should have put more thought into when we first started playing the game because I think it is unfair that new players have their hand held more than me.

Every time subscriptions reach an extra 1000 then every player should get an allocated skill point because we are getting more players on board this so called boring game....

Remove ship fitting as well. Just have prefitted, unchangable ships.

Please just give us all the skills at V so that we never have to log in again and be done with it already! tia

I see you're adopting the itrollu.jpg tactic.

1) hes correct

2) you aren't a moderator. stop this.

Some people watch Fox News too, and **** sheep

what gives

CCP needs to remove learning implants and not replace them with anything. The truth is that leaning implants add nothing meaningful to the game, are a terrible choice to make, encourage risk adversity, and removing them from the game would actually improve Eve without dumbing Eve down.

Let's start with choices. Eve is not a game of choices. If you think Eve is a game of choices you are wrong. Eve is a game of meaningful choices. That is a huge distinction. A meaningful choice is choice that affects the Eve universe beyond yourself. For example the choice to fit an AB instead of an MWD is a meaningful choice. Your decision now is going to affect the fight you and others are going to have in a matter of minutes. You decisions during that fight are meaningful choices. What you do after that fight will likely be a series of meaningful choices.

Learning implants are not a meaningful choice. Take any situation: mining, PvP, PvE, market trading, etc. Place yourself in that situation with another person. Ask yourself these simple questions: Does that player having no learning implants affect this situation? What if they have a set of +1 implants? +5 implants? Under no circumstances does their decision to use learning implants affect your gameplay at all. Some of you are going to argue that if you podded said player with +5 implants you would feel good because you destroyed something of high value they had. You will miss the fact that it wasn't the learning implants that affected your gameplay, but the value of those implants. If we set the value to 0 they would have little to no effect at all. Learning implants are still not a meaningful choice.

Clone grades were a choice between losing isk or losing SP. That is a terrible choice to make. CCP rightly removed clone grades from the game because of the poor choice they presented, among other things. Learning implants are the exact same choice that was presented in clone grades: lose isk or lose SP. Imagine there was a third choice added. This third choice is a "no change" choice. So if I offered you the choice between losing your isk, losing your SP, and doing nothing and losing nothing. A majority of people would chose to lose nothing. That may seem a little extreme, but the point is that anytime where the choice of "do nothing and lose nothing" is the best choice it should be altered to not be the best choice. In fact the do nothing choice became the only option for clone grades and people rejoiced because a terrible choice was removed.

Learning implants encourage risk adversity. I have trained many pilots to PvP over the years. One of the biggest issues is that the players, who often don't have lots of isk, would rather stay in highsec where they can use their learning implants to gain skills quickly than PvP or do something where those implants would be at risk. People should be out enjoying the game, creating content for themselves and others. It isn't hard to see that removing learning implants will get more people out into space and doing things in space. One of the biggest arguments to removing clone grades, argued mainly by nullsec and lowsec PvPers, was that a 15+ mil isk clone was enough to get people to not fly small ships. It isn't hard to see why 40 mil isk in two +4 implants is discouraging PvP just as much as clone grades were.

Ask yourself: if learning implants were removed, and we were given a flat SP/hour that compensated for their removal, would Eve be better or worse off? I will argue that it would be better off. A meaningless and terrible choice is no longer present, more people are out doing risky activities while gaining the max SP/hour they can, and more content is generated. There are surprisingly minimal costs to removing learning implants. We lost a few LP store items. I am sure CCP can fix that. Other than that... it is all gains. (feel free to let me know if I missed costs.)

The bottom line is that Eve will be better off if learning implants are removed. I hope CCP can see that removing learning implants is really in the best interest of the game. I ask players that agree to speak to their CSM representatives and get them to urge CCP to remove learning implants.

CCP removed clone grades, now wants to remove learning implants..

Next step, removing remaps.

Eve Online Homogenization and Generalization complete.

Soon, we will all be the same, which will create outcry to 'let us be different', which will create need for a cash shop to sell 30 day SP boosters.

i know and hate you for it

Who cares? I am sure there are people that pay more every month - does that mean they have more value than you?

It never ceases to amaze me that people somehow think they're special because they know how to spend money

**** just got real!

Hi I just wanted to give my opinion on this. I think skill training speed should be independent of implants - I do spend about 50 mill ISK on my pod (I have a complete set of +3's), and if the learning implants were removed, I would not. In fact this is the primary barrier to me risking my ship right now, and is why I stay in high-sec to mine and do missions.

I don't want to give up that edge on skill training. IMO the skill system is dumb - linking your character progress to an endless timer means whoever has the fastest timer wins. Lots of players would argue otherwise, but the fact is a 20 mil+ SP character fundamentally has more fun than a 2 mil SP character. If that wasn't the case, the character bazaar wouldn't exist - we wouldn't have any need for it.

So yes, if learning implants didn't exist, I would play the game differently.

No for the love of...

Im seriously worried that the plan here is to turn this into "Batlefield in space"
Anyone can jump in at any time with no risk.

Remove implants they cost isk.
Next they going to complain about fittings
then about ships.


Soon you will be able to create a new account with max skills and fly super caps, all in the name of "making PvP more accessible"

After pages of minor insults and nonsense, this needs repeating.

From here

I wonder how entitled he felt?
I would say that putting in a big fast Charisma implant for awhile to increase my ability to boost the miners was a rather meaningful choice.
I need an over 9000!!! Like button.